The information gathered from a variety of sources who have accessed the realms beyond our three dimensional reality - what we would term the spirit world - from seers to clairvoyants, herbalists, out of body experiencers, near death experiencers, and so on is that in the spirit world, where the Source of life we refer to as God dwells, in this dimension, the concept of time and space as we know them on earth are inoperative.

The spirit world - OUR TRUE HOME - where we all go upon passing, is said to be a vast place filled with life, learning and leisure of proportions and beauty unimaginable to humans. It even has colors that are unknown on earth.

It is not 'up there' in 'heaven', but permeates even right through us here on earth and everywhere. We cannot see this realm because they vibrate at a faster rate than us on earth. But they can be accessed, and have been accessed by generations of seers, psychics, herbalists, and Near Death Experiencers.

This is where all the people, and even animals and insects, we consider 'dead' reside, mostly in conditions of unimaginable bliss and happiness.

The spirit world is also a place of the Eternal Now.

Present, past and future can be accessed from this dimension. Time as we know it is an illusion. Linear time is simply a means for us to exist effectively on the earth plane.

In reality there is only the Eternal Now.

Space is non-existent because in this realm, you think of a place and you're there - wherever. Even communication is done via telepathy, and is said to be vastly superior to speech as a form of communication, because you can also access the communicator's feelings during the exchange.

When you understand these basic facts of existence, you'll see that the idea that 'God did not know' what 'Adam and Eve' would do, even the idea of God 'testing' the couple, etc etc, is all biblical nonsense.

NO SUCH THING HAPPENED. There was no fruit in any garden with 'Adam and Eve' on it.

''Adam'' and ''Eve'' if they did exist (highly doubtful), were the first Jews, not the first human beings.

Human beings existed in Africa and elsewhere no less than 50,000 years before ''Adam'' and ''Eve'', were invented by Jewish scribes.

Yahweh, the ''God'' of the bible is NOT GOD.

The real God of the universe, the source of all that is, does not get jealous, does not get ''angry'' does not 'test' his creation, does not order his 'chosen people' to go on killing sprees and raping escapades as does the Old testament ''God''.

These are all physical human attributes that were ascribed to the Source of All Life by Jewish scribes in their bid to control and dominate their people, and wage war against their neighbours.

God does not demand ritual human sacrifice and animal sacrifice as does the Jewish tribal god Yahweh, and He does not 'punish' people for their sins.

Such ideas are based on ancient pagan beliefs that predate Christianity and are not founded on truth.

What happens when you pass away is that you return to the spirit world, and your actions on earth are reviewed by yourself with the assistance of your spirit guide or chi, as the Igbos call them, and highly evolved entities on behalf of the Creator, who operate in a non-judgemental capacity characterised by love and understanding.

You as a spirit, operating with an expanded consciousness characterised by greater awareness, will upon being shown less than complimentary aspects of your past life, may decide by advice or of your own accord, to RETURN in another human body, to resolve karmic issues related to your last life.

You will be made to forget your full personality as a soul, as 'knowing the deal' will prevent you from accomplishing your set goals, which always are to do with spiritual development as a soul. It is said that every soul has a deep desire to attain spiritual development, and Earth and other planets are regarded as schools or boot-camps for soul development, as adverse conditions exist there that could not be found in the spirit world. By suffering, learning lessons, teaching lessons as humans, souls experience spiritual evolution.

The 'time' we spend on earth as humans is in reality - an illusion.

A seventy year life on earth is little more than the equivalent of 'an hour' in the spirit world, and it is said that in spiritual classroom sessions, students go for an earth life and return to the ongoing lesson when the life on earth is completed, just as if they'd visited the bathroom.

Reincarnation is a fact of life known to humans for over 100,000 years.

Until you start regarding everything you read in the bible and koran with a pinch of salt, down to the ridiculous, pilfered Jesus fairytale, you'll never arrive at the truth on this earth.

For more on the accounts of near-death experiencers, whom incidentally cut across ALL cultures, races and religions while sharing remarkably similar experiences of the hereafter, visit:

www.near-death.com

Interesting read.

The true existance is the sun that shines every day,the air you breath and the joy you get from knowing that you the one.

nice piece!!! i guess you dint get that from your pastor on sunday! so pray tell, what is the source of your info?

guy cool down o! better do some astral travel and see with your own eyes before you start trashing the bible

We are afraid of simple truth,we seem to like it complicated,it is like somebody telling you you are sinless. just because it is easy to say,you think it is not true,you just want a situation where you will keep begging all your life for no crime of yours.There is no barrier to what can be,the only barrier is your imagination.

aproko.com said:

nice piece!!! i guess you dint get that from your pastor on sunday! so pray tell, what is the source of your info?

A good place to start for u is the link I posted right after the write-up. Spend two good hours there to start with I suggest. You'll come out far more clued up than you would after 150 hours with your pastor.

Great stuff, trading one idiotic belief system for another one. We're replacing the Jesus freaks for the Aquarians and that's supposed to be an improvement?
Gullible ignorance masquerading as profound knowledge. Why don't you add in some post-modern gibberish as icing on the cake?

Highly characteristic of some Nairalanders; SUCKA POSTS!!!

if u doubt existence , watch JVI evening on TBN

nferyn said:

Great stuff, trading one idiotic belief system for another one. We're replacing the Jesus freaks for the Aquarians and that's supposed to be an improvement?
Gullible ignorance masquerading as profound knowledge. Why don't you add in some post-modern gibberish as icing on the cake?

Not sure what u mean by Aquarians. This 'belief system' as u put it is independent of religious/social afiliation.

And while Biblical beliefs are grounded on parochial 3000 year old Jewish tribal myth and heralded by 'prophets', this 'belief system' is founded on accounts and experiences of real flesh and blood people from all across the world, and cuts across race, religion, and social status - people that can be, and have been traced,  identified and verified.

So its really a no-contest, Nferyn.

Jen33:

nferyn said:

Not sure what u mean by Aquarians. This 'belief system' as u put it is independent of religious/social afiliation.

True enough, but the fact that it isn't tied to a specific culture or religion doesn't in itself give it any credence.

Jen33:

And while Biblical beliefs are grounded on parochial 3000 year old Jewish tribal myth and heralded by 'prophets', this 'belief system' is founded on accounts and experiences of real flesh and blood people from all across the world, and cuts across race, religion, and social status - people that can be, and have been traced, identified and verified.

So its really a no-contest, Nferyn.

Yet you talk about the spirit world and reincarnation as if you have anything even remotely resembling evidence for it. Near death experiences can easily be ascribed to the impact of oxygen depletion in the brain. Those out-of-body experiences and the white light can be invoked by depriving the brain of oxygen. There is no reason to assume that it is anything more than a yet not fully understood physiological reaction. There is no need to bring in any supernatural agency into the picture.

many times i just wonder about people, but then i know why

Nferyn, just suppose for a moment that NDE's are indeed a consequence of oxygen depletion to the brain, what is that really saying?

It doesn't disprove the authenticity of the experience. Ths is the spirit world - independent of the permutations and limitations of physical matter. The depletion of oxygen to the brain is a sign that the spirit, the consciousness of the man is on a terminal journey out of its human coat.

That's ALL it means.

It simply means that consciousness is not dependent on the human body to exist. Why afterall, can we think?

All that's in our heads is slimy fluff. It's got no more reason or capability to make us think and feel than a bag of stones poured into our skulls.

What makes us think and feel and remember etc is Consciousness - Spirit.

When the body dies, Consciousness moves on. Consciousness is Energy.

Energy cannot be destroyed - it can only be transformed into another state.

Remember that ALL of those who reported these experiences perceived them to be real - just as real as getting up from your bed this morning. In fact MORE real.

Most of them claim that it is HERE - this existence  that feels like a dream, compared to THERE.

And how do u explain the numerous documented cases where patients that were certified dead and later revived where able to recount incidents and conversations that occurred during the time they were meant to be dead, even to the point of describing the people that were present?

Truth is, there's an awful lot of powerful circumstantial evidence, including scientific evidence, for the survival of consciousness, far more so than can ever be provided by religion, as a thorough review of the link below will reveal.

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html

Jen33:

Nferyn, just suppose for a moment that NDE's are indeed a consequence of oxygen depletion to the brain, what is that really saying?

It doesn't disprove the authenticity of the experience. Ths is the spirit world - independent of the permutations and limitations of physical matter. The depletion of oxygen to the brain is a sign that the spirit, the consciousness of the man is on a terminal journey out of its human coat.

Nowhere does the existence of these near death experiences indicate that there is something like a spirit world. Our brain is capable of producing these kind of experiences without having to turn to unevidenced entities such as spirits.

Jen33:

That's ALL it means.

That's all you read into it; that's not what it means, at all

Jen33:

It simply means that consciousness is not dependent on the human body to exist. Why afterall, can we think?

Is that supposed to be a question? Consciousness is merely an emergent property of the neurological processes working in the brain. Without a functioning brain, there is no consciousness.

Jen33:

All that's in our heads is slimy fluff. It's got no more reason or capability to make us think and feel than a bag of stones poured into our skulls.

Or so you say. Our brains are complicated parallel data processing machines, which have several semi-redundant modules, each with specific specialities. You might want to read How The Mind Works by Stephen Pinker before jumping to these kind of unjustified conclusions

Jen33:

What makes us think and feel and remember etc is Consciousness - Spirit.

What you're asserting just doesn't exist.

Jen33:

When the body dies, Consciousness moves on. Consciousness is Energy.

I guess your research must have given you conclusive evidence of that assertion. Care to share it with us unenlightened folk?

Jen33:

Energy cannot be destroyed - it can only be transformed into another state.

Yes, so?

Jen33:

Remember that ALL of those who reported these experiences perceived them to be real - just as real as getting up from your bed this morning. In fact MORE real.

Our senses evolved to allow us to make sense of our environment. Both our neurological make up, as well as our sensory perceptions are limited to experiencing a very narrow band of properties of the world around us. Form, colour, shape, position, feeling and smell are merely props for the real thing. Our vision and experience of the world around us are no more an accurate depiction of reality than the drawing of a 3 year old girl is an accurate depiction of her mother. You have to excuse me if I find your 'reality' somewhat unconvincing.

Jen33:

Most of them claim that it is HERE - this existence that feels like a dream, compared to THERE.

A heightened sense of self caused by sensory deprivation. We can even induce these feelings through direct neurological stimulation.It's a simple 'mechanical' process.

Jen33:

And how do u explain the numerous documented cases where patients that were certified dead and later revived where able to recount incidents and conversations that occurred during the time they were meant to be dead, even to the point of describing the people that were present?

I would first need to see the details of these documented cases before I could comment on them. Your assertions concerning the real meaning of these experiences however, are merely speculation

Jen33:

Truth is, there's an awful lot of powerful circumstantial evidence, including scientific evidence, for the survival of consciousness, far more so than can ever be provided by religion, as a thorough review of the link below will reveal.

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html

None of this 'evidence' can't be explained through far more mundane mechanisms. You're dragging in explanatory factors that are thus far unnecessary entities, thereby violating Occam's Razor.

Quote from: Jen33 on Yesterday at 02:25:30 AM
Nferyn, just suppose for a moment that NDE's are indeed a consequence of oxygen depletion to the brain, what is that really saying?

It doesn't disprove the authenticity of the experience. This is the spirit world - independent of the permutations and limitations of physical matter. The depletion of oxygen to the brain is a sign that the spirit, the consciousness of the man is on a terminal journey out of its human coat.

Nowhere does the existence of these near death experiences indicate that there is something like a spirit world. Our brain is capable of producing these kind of experiences without having to turn to unevidenced entities such as spirits.

I can't believe you wrote this. You've OBVIOUSLY NOT READ ANY NEAR DEATH ACCOUNTS. NDE experiencers ALL speak about a spirit world to where they transited upon death. You counter the cliams of thousands of people by making reference to the last throes of a dying brain. But of course the brain SHOULD be dying for consciousness to experience a removal from the human body. The brain will hardly be in full health for this experience to occur would it? So simply identifying the physical processes of death does not in any way obviate the Near-Death Experience.

Quote from: Jen33 on Yesterday at 02:25:30 AM
It simply means that consciousness is not dependent on the human body to exist. Why afterall, can we think?

Is that supposed to be a question? Consciousness is merely an emergent property of the neurological processes working in the brain. Without a functioning brain, there is no consciousness.

I disagree. You try to make consciousness out to be some form of computer. But consciousness is not a computer.

Unlike a computer, Consciousness has feelings. It has emotions, empathy, beliefs, convictions. It loves. And hates. These are not attributes that originate from this mysterious, smart-alec configuration of matter you allude to.

These are attributes of Spirit.

I would also disagree very strongly with your assertion that ''without a functioning brain, there is no consciousness''.

That betrays a deep lack of understanding of existence on your part. If at all you do believe in ANY form of non-physical intelligence, be it God, 'Satan', angels, etc etc, then you've contradicted your own theory unless you're suggesting such entities also require 'a functioning brain' in order to be conscious.

Consciousness is a form of energy, and as every science student will tell u, energy is indestructible. Therefore, Consciousness is indestructible.

Near Death Experiencers have said with death came a state of expanded awareness.

Quote from: Jen33 on Yesterday at 02:25:30 AM
When the body dies, Consciousness moves on. Consciousness is Energy.

I guess your research must have given you conclusive evidence of that assertion. Care to share it with us unenlightened folk?

I suggest a more open-minded approach on your part. You seem hardly likely to consider any evidence as valid, ''conclusive'' or not. I posted a link above of a full library of documented evidence which you seem not to have even clicked on. U don't seem like you want to be convinced. 

Quote from: Jen33 on Yesterday at 02:25:30 AM
Remember that ALL of those who reported these experiences perceived them to be real - just as real as getting up from your bed this morning. In fact MORE real.

Our senses evolved to allow us to make sense of our environment. Both our neurological make up, as well as our sensory perceptions are limited to experiencing a very narrow band of properties of the world around us. Form, colour, shape, position, feeling and smell are merely props for the real thing. Our vision and experience of the world around us are no more an accurate depiction of reality than the drawing of a 3 year old girl is an accurate depiction of her mother. You have to excuse me if I find your 'reality' somewhat unconvincing.

Nothing you've written here is in opposition to the survival of consciousness. The important thing is CONSCIOUSNESS IS ONGOING. How the individual interpretes the reality he's confronted with is another matter. The important thing is the individual is conscious, with memories, likes, dislikes, tastes, hobbies intact.

Quote from: Jen33 on Yesterday at 02:25:30 AM
Most of them claim that it is HERE - this existence  that feels like a dream, compared to THERE.

A heightened sense of self caused by sensory deprivation. We can even induce these feelings through direct neurological stimulation.It's a simple 'mechanical' process.

Again, Nothing you've written here is in opposition to the survival of consciousness.
In fact, in many ways it PROVES the survival of consciousness, that physical threats to the human body (induced or otherwise) are an instant catalyst for mental experiences consistent with the survival of consciousness.

Quote from: Jen33 on Yesterday at 02:25:30 AM
And how do u explain the numerous documented cases where patients that were certified dead and later revived where able to recount incidents and conversations that occurred during the time they were meant to be dead, even to the point of describing the people that were present?

I would first need to see the details of these documented cases before I could comment on them. Your assertions concerning the real meaning of these experiences however, are merely speculation

Well, to the extent that one has not directly experienced it, yes you are right. Only those who've had an NDE can truly be said to have proven it to themselves. It's not something that anyone can 'prove conclusively' to you. You simply need to study the phenomenon more closely, read some of the accounts by those who've experienced it, and draw your own conclusions. What's unforgivable is rejecting the phenomenon outright without proper investigation.

Quote from: Jen33 on Yesterday at 02:25:30 AM
Truth is, there's an awful lot of powerful circumstantial evidence, including scientific evidence, for the survival of consciousness, far more so than can ever be provided by religion, as a thorough review of the link below will reveal.

http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html

None of this 'evidence' can't be explained through far more mundane mechanisms. You're dragging in explanatory factors that are thus far unnecessary entities, thereby violating Occam's Razor.

And you are violating the experiences and accounts of ALL Near Death Experiencers as relating to ''uneccesary entities''. I think you need to factor in the accounts of the EXPERIENCERS themselves in any consideration of what constitutes the simplest explanation to satisfy your Occam's Razor.

The simplest explanation is indeed, that these people ARE indeed experiencing life on the other side as they've all reported.

Why make things difficult in violation of the razor, by bringing in extraneous interpretations in opposition to what the experiencers themselves are saying?

Dr Charles Tart's Autoscopic Evidence for survival of death.

http://www.near-death.com/tart.html

Jen33:

Nowhere does the existence of these near death experiences indicate that there is something like a spirit world. Our brain is capable of producing these kind of experiences without having to turn to unevidenced entities such as spirits.

I can't believe you wrote this. You've OBVIOUSLY NOT READ ANY NEAR DEATH ACCOUNTS.

Oh yes I have, I only don't give much credence to anecdotal evidence. What we can learn from these experiences is the clear patterns they exhibit and try to explain these patterns using the most economical of explanations while still applying Occam's Razor. Positing unevidenced entitities as explanatory agents is intellectually and scientifically bankrupt.

Jen33:

NDE experiencers ALL speak about a spirit world to where they transited upon death.

No they don't [b]all [/b]speak about the spirit world. A majority does, but definitely not all. Anyway, experiencing Out-of-body events does not mean that these OBE's are real.

Jen33:

You counter the cliams of thousands of people by making reference to the last throes of a dying brain.

Yes and there is strong evidence that points in that direction. The studies by Karl L. R. Jansen and Susan Blackmoore among others.

Jen33:

But of course the brain SHOULD be dying for consciousness to experience a removal from the human body.

Assuming the consequent. Logical phalacies 101.

Jen33:

The brain will hardly be in full health for this experience to occur would it? So simply identifying the physical processes of death does not in any way obviate the Near-Death Experience.

I have never questioned those experiences, but rather the facile explanation you make up for them.

Jen33:

Is that supposed to be a question? Consciousness is merely an emergent property of the neurological processes working in the brain. Without a functioning brain, there is no consciousness.

I disagree. You try to make consciousness out to be some form of computer. But consciousness is not a computer.

As If I have ever said such a thing. Consciousness is an emergent property of the processes in the brain, not the brain itself.

Jen33:

Unlike a computer, Consciousness has feelings. It has emotions, empathy, beliefs, convictions. It loves. And hates. These are not attributes that originate from this mysterious, smart-alec configuration of matter you allude to.

1. Define conscousness. Apperently we're referring to different things. Those feelings are not part of consciousness per se. You cling on to the philosophy of Platonian essentialism as if there's any merit to it. There is no spirit/consciousness/soul that exists apart from the machinery that creates it, i.e. the brain. You really should read Dennett.

Jen33:

These are attributes of Spirit.

Or so you claim. I have no idea what Spirit [/i]is

Jen33:

I would also disagree very strongly with your assertion that ''without a functioning brain, there is no consciousness''.

You may do so, but do you have any evidence that consciousness exists apart from a functioning brain. If not, your claim is vacuous.

Jen33:

That betrays a deep lack of understanding of existence on your part.

And your understanding is based on what exactly?

Jen33:

If at all you do believe in ANY form of non-physical intelligence, be it God, 'Satan', angels, etc etc, then you've contradicted your own theory unless you're suggesting such entities also require 'a functioning brain' in order to be conscious.

Obviously I don't believe in any such entities. They're just products of an overactive human brain, a intent-detector gone wild, generation far too many false positives. You've just proven yourself that it's hard to overcome our biological imperatives.

Jen33:

Consciousness is a form of energy, and as every science student will tell u, energy is indestructible. Therefore, Consciousness is indestructible.

Assertion does not evidence make. As your premisse is dubious (consciousness is energy), your conclusions don't hold. Empty talk.

Jen33:

Near Death Experiencers have said with death came a state of expanded awareness.

Which has a perfectly useful physiological explanation. No need to enter the realm of the spirit-world.

Jen33:

I guess your research must have given you conclusive evidence of that assertion. Care to share it with us unenlightened folk?

I suggest a more open-minded approach on your part. You seem hardly likely to consider any evidence as valid, ''conclusive'' or not. I posted a link above of a full library of documented evidence which you seem not to have even clicked on. U don't seem like you want to be convinced.

I am convinced those experiences are real, not the explanations you and others give to them. As there are materialist explanations available, there is absolutely no need to turn to the supernatural (as if there's ever a reason to do so).

Jen33:

Our senses evolved to allow us to make sense of our environment. Both our neurological make up, as well as our sensory perceptions are limited to experiencing a very narrow band of properties of the world around us. Form, colour, shape, position, feeling and smell are merely props for the real thing. Our vision and experience of the world around us are no more an accurate depiction of reality than the drawing of a 3 year old girl is an accurate depiction of her mother. You have to excuse me if I find your 'reality' somewhat unconvincing.

Nothing you've written here is in opposition to the survival of consciousness.

no, but:
1. It helps to explain the experiences
2. It doesn't imply the survival of consciousness
3. something you have presented no evidence for, whatsoever

Jen33:

The important thing is CONSCIOUSNESS IS ONGOING. How the individual interpretes the reality he's confronted with is another matter. The important thing is the individual is conscious, with memories, likes, dislikes, tastes, hobbies intact.

And still there's no evidence that consciousness exists apart from a functioning brain.

Jen33:

A heightened sense of self caused by sensory deprivation. We can even induce these feelings through direct neurological stimulation.It's a simple 'mechanical' process.

Again, Nothing you've written here is in opposition to the survival of consciousness.

And it still doesn't point to that survival at all, it only offers a better explanation for NDE's than yours.

Jen33:

In fact, in many ways it PROVES the survival of consciousness, that physical threats to the human body (induced or otherwise) are an instant catalyst for mental experiences consistent with the survival of consciousness.

Did you try out Dilbert's mission statement generator? It must be hard to write down sentences that are utterly void of content.

Jen33:

I would first need to see the details of these documented cases before I could comment on them. Your assertions concerning the real meaning of these experiences however, are merely speculation

Well, to the extent that one has not directly experienced it, yes you are right. Only those who've had an NDE can truly be said to have proven it to themselves. It's not something that anyone can 'prove conclusively' to you. You simply need to study the phenomenon more closely, read some of the accounts by those who've experienced it, and draw your own conclusions. What's unforgivable is rejecting the phenomenon outright without proper investigation.

And what makes you conclude that I have done that? I just don't take 'eyewitness' experience at face value. Anyone having even the slightest knowledge how our brains function would do likewise, unless they have an axe to grind.

Jen33:

None of this 'evidence' can't be explained through far more mundane mechanisms. You're dragging in explanatory factors that are thus far unnecessary entities, thereby violating Occam's Razor.

And you are violating the experiences and accounts of ALL Near Death Experiencers as relating to ''uneccesary entities''. I think you need to factor in the accounts of the EXPERIENCERS themselves in any consideration of what constitutes the simplest explanation to satisfy your Occam's Razor.

Ok, what explains those experience better? Either an explanation that takes those experiences at face value, disregarding conclusive research on the fact that those experiences can be mechanically induced, or an explanation that actually uses the results of these experiments in it's explanatory model. Which explanation is the most economical in it's usage of necessary explanatory factors?

Jen33:

The simplest explanation is indeed, that these people ARE indeed experiencing life on the other side as they've all reported.

No that explanation isn't simple at all. It introduces exlanatory factors that need explaining themselves. Where's your evidence for [i]spirits [/i]and [i]another side

Jen33:

Why make things difficult in violation of the razor, by bringing in extraneous interpretations in opposition to what the experiencers themselves are saying?

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about. My explantion includes empirical evidence, yours only assertion and extrapollation on these assertions

Jen33:

Dr Charles Tart's Autoscopic Evidence for survival of death.

http://www.near-death.com/tart.html

One reported case out of thousands of an OBE using a correct experimental set up published in 68 in a less than reputable journal and that has never been confirmed to date. What an overwhelming body of evidence
Evidence for what exactly?

NDEs cannot be explained merely by brain chemistry alone.


If NDEs are merely hallucinations, why do the vast majority of experiencers report being told an identical and unusual message? NDEs often include a phenomenon of the experiencer being told by a supernatural entity that, "Your mission on Earth is not finished. You must go back" or some slight variation of this. Assuming that NDEs are merely hallucinations, it is odd that people are having mass hallucinations of receiving similar unusual messages.


Sources:


(a)  "Common Elements Are Found in NDEs: P.M.H. Atwater's NDE Research"
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence06.html



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(33)  NDEs have been reported by people since the dawn of recorded history.


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Reports of near-death experiences are not a new phenomenon. A great number of them have been recorded over a period of thousands of years. The ancient religious texts such as The Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Bible, and Koran describe experiences of life after death which remarkably resembles modern NDEs. The oldest surviving explicit report of a NDE in Western literature comes from the famed Greek philosopher, Plato, who describes an event in his tenth book of his legendary book entitled Republic.

Plato discusses the story of Er, a soldier who awoke on his funeral pyre and described his journey into the afterlife. But this story is not just a random anecdote for Plato. He integrated at least three elements of the NDE into his philosophy: the departure of the soul from the cave of shadows to see the light of truth, the flight of the soul to a vision of pure celestial being and its subsequent recollection of the vision of light, which is the very purpose of philosophy.


Sources:


(a)  "NDEs Have Been Reported Since Ancient Times: Plato's Testimony of a Soldier Named Er and His NDE" http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence12.html



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(34)  The skeptical "dying brain" theory of NDEs has serious flaws.


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Two competing hypotheses are advanced in Dying to Live: The Afterlife Hypothesis and The Dying Brain Hypothesis. The Afterlife Hypothesis states spirit survives body death.

The NDE is the result of spirit separating from the body. The Dying Brain Hypothesis states the NDE is an artifact of brain chemistry. According to the dying brain hypothesis, there is no spirit which survives body death. 

Because NDEs have many common core elements, this suggests that they are spiritual voyages outside of the body. Also, if the dying brain creates NDE illusions, what is the purpose for doing it? If our brains are only a high-tech computer-like lump of tissue which produces our mind and personality, why does it bother to create illusions at the time of death? If everything, including the mind and personality, are about to disintegrate, why would the brain produce a last wonderful Grand Finale vision? Even if NDE elements can be reduced to only a series of brain reactions, this does not negate the idea that NDEs are more than a brain thing.


Sources:


(a)  "A Critique of Susan Blackmore's Dying Brain Hypothesis" by Greg Stone
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/articles001.html

(b)  "Science Can't Yet Explain Near-Death Experiences," Reuters News
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/nde/001_pages/19.html

(c)  "No Medical Explanation For Near-Death Experiences," New Scientist News
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/nde/001_pages/18.html



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(35)  Skeptical arguments against the NDE "survival theory" are not valid.


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Sociologist Dr. Allan Kellehear states that some scientific theories are often presented as the most logical, factual, objective, credible, and progressive possibilities, as opposed to the allegedly subjective, superstitious, abnormal, or dysfunctional views of mystics.

The rhetorical opinions of some NDE theories are presented as if they were scientific (Kellehear, 1996, 120). Many skeptical arguments against the survival theory are actually arguments from pseudo-skeptics who often think they have no burden of proof. Such arguments often based on scientism with assumptions that survival is impossible even though survival has not been ruled out.

Faulty conclusions are often made such as, "Because NDEs have a brain chemical connection then survival is impossible." Pseudo-skeptical arguments are sometimes made that do not consider the entire body of circumstantial evidence supporting the possibility of survival or do not consider the possibility of new paradigms. Such pseudo-skeptical claims are often made without any scientific evidence.


Sources:


(a)  "The NDE and Science: Kevin Williams' Research Conclusions
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research08.html



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(36)  The burden of proof has shifted to the skeptics of the survival theory.


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All neurological theories that conclude NDEs to be only a brain-thing, must show how the core elements of the NDE occur subjectively because of specific neurological events triggered by the approach of death. These core elements include: the out-of-body state, paranormal knowledge, the tunnel, the golden light, the voice or presence, the appearance of deceased relatives, and beautiful vistas. Perhaps the final word should go to Nancy Evans Bush, a NDEr with the International Association for Near-Death Studies, who said: "There is no human experience of any description that can't simply be reduced to a biological process, but that in no way offsets the meaning those experiences have for us - whether it's falling in love, or grieving, or having a baby."


Sources:


(a)  "The NDE and Science: Kevin Williams' Research Conclusions
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research08.html



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(37)  Other anomalous phenomena supports the survival theory.


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These related phenomena include: deathbed visions, quantum physics, dream research, out-of-body research, after-death communications research, reincarnation research, hypnosis, synchronicity, remote viewing, and consciousness research.


Sources:


(a)  "The NDE and Science: Kevin Williams' Research Conclusions
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research08.html



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(38)  NDEs support the existence of reincarnation.


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Amber Wells was a student at the University of Connecticut and wrote a research paper based on her study of the near-death experience for her senior honors thesis under the direction of Dr. Ken Ring. Her paper was published in the Journal of Near-Death Studies in the fall of 1993. In her study, 70 percent of the group of near-death experiencers demonstrated belief in reincarnation. Claims have been documented by other researchers of direct knowledge of reincarnation which became available during the near-death experience itself. An example of this type of knowledge can be seen in a letter written to Dr. Ken Ring by John Robinson: "It is a matter of personal knowledge from what the being with whom I spoke during my near-death experience told me about my older son, that he had had 14 incarnations in female physical bodies previous to the life he has just had."


Sources:


(a)  "The NDE and Reincarnation: The True Resurrection"
http://www.near-death.com/reincarnation.html

(b)  "The NDE and Reincarnation: Kevin Williams' Research Conclusions"
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research35.html



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(39)  The scientific evidence supporting reincarnation also supports the survival theory.


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On June 11, 1992, at Princeton University, Dr. Ian Stevenson presented a paper entitled: "Birthmarks and Birth Defects Corresponding to Wounds on Deceased Persons"[/b] providing scientific evidence suggestive of reincarnation which was published in the Journal of Scientific Exploration.

These findings support reincarnation in NDE research findings as well. Reincarnation has been called by some to be the greatest unknown scientific discovery today. In the last chapter of Dr. Ian Stevenson's book entitled Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation (1967), he provides rigorous scientific reasoning to show how reincarnation is the only viable explanation that fits the facts of his study. He considers every possible alternative explanation for his [b]twenty cases of young children who were spontaneously able to describe a previous lifetime as soon as they learned to talk.

He was able to rule out each alternative explanation using one or more aspects of these cases. Later research has even bolstered his case in favor of the existence of reincarnation. His study is also completely reproducible which means that anybody who doubts the validity of this study is perfectly welcome to repeat it for themselves. I believe it is only a short matter of time before his discovery of the existence of reincarnation is finally realized by the scientific community and the world to be accepted as one of the greatest scientific discoveries of all time.


Sources:


(a)  "Can Reincarnation Be Proven? How Researchers Have Investigated Claims of Past Lives." http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/reincarnation/001_pages/03.html

(b)  Archive of Reincarnation News on the Internet
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/reincarnation.html

(c)  "Birthmarks and Birth Defects Corresponding to Wounds on Deceased Persons," by Dr. Ian Stevenson http://www.childpastlives.org/birthmrk.htm

(d)  Library of Articles and Cases on Reincarnation
http://www.childpastlives.org/library.htm



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(40)  Xenoglossy supports reincarnation and the survival theory.


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One of the most amazing psychic phenomena, which religionists, skeptics and atheists have continuously and deliberately ignored is xenoglossy - the ability to speak or write a foreign language a person never learned. After all other explanations have been investigated - such as fraud, genetic memory, telepathy and cryptomnesia (the remembering of a foreign language learned earlier), xenoglossy is taken as evidence of either memories of a language learned in a past life or of communication with a discarnate entity— a spirit person. There are many cases on record of adults and children speaking and writing languages which they have never learned. Sometimes this happens spontaneously but more often it occurs while the person is under hypnosis or in an altered state of consciousness. In some cases it is only a few words remembered but in other cases the person becomes totally fluent and able to converse with native speakers sometimes in obscure dialects which have not been in use for centuries. There are literally thousands of xenoglossic cases, many hundreds of which have been documented. They involve modern and ancient languages from all over the world. Psychic investigators, such the highly credible Dr. Ian Stevenson, used scientific method to illustrate xenoglossy and claim that there are only two possible explanations — either spirit contact or past life memory both of which are evidence for the afterlife.


Sources:


(a)  Victor Zammit's A Lawyer Presents the Case for the Afterlife:
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter22.html



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(41)  Past-life regression supports reincarnation and the survival theory.


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Past life regression simply involves placing a person under hypnosis and asking them to go back through their childhood to a time before they were born. In many cases the person begins talking about his or her life or lives before the present lifetime, about their previous death and about the time between lives including the planning of the present lifetime. The main reason why at least some of these claims must be considered as evidence are:

(1)  The regression frequently leads to a cure of a physical illness.
(2)  In some cases the person regressed begins to speak an unlearned foreign language.
(3)  In some cases the person being regressed remembers details of astonishing accuracy
which when checked out are verified by the top historians.
(4)  The emotional intensity of the experience is such that it convinces many formerly skeptical psychiatrists who are used to dealing with fantasy and imagined regressions.
(5)  In some cases the alleged cause of death in an immediate past life is reflected by a birthmark in the present life.


Sources:


(a)  Victor Zammit's A Lawyer Presents the Case for the Afterlife:
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter24.html



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(42)  Contact with "the deceased" has occurred under scientific controls.


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On Oct. 4, 1999, the University of Arizona announced a study conducted by Dr. Gary Schwartz: "UA Researchers Look Beyond the Grave" concerning scientific evidence supporting a theory of the existence of a Universal Living Memory. This was achieved by testing highly qualified psychic mediums to see if they could contact the dead. The success of this study is important in that it supports NDE research in providing a scientific foundation toward investigating the survival of consciousness after death.


Sources:


(a)  "Scientist Claims Proof Of Afterlife"
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/paranormal/001_pages/006.html

(b)  "UA Researchers Look Beyond the Grave"
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/paranormal/001_pages/012.htm

(c)  Journal Article on Accuracy and Replicability of After-Death Communication (HBO experiment) Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, 2001, Vol. 65.1, Num. 862, pages 1-25. http://veritas.arizona.edu/



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(43)  After-death communications have been reported by credible people.


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A five-year test has shown that mediums can indeed discover your deepest secrets. Researchers at the Scottish Society for Psychical Research (SSPR) say mediums who took part in their tests beat odds of a million to one to correctly reveal information about volunteer test subjects. Tricia Robertson, vice-president of the SSPR, a registered charity with around 250 members, said: “We were not trying to prove the existence of the afterlife or that personalities live on, but I think it is now important to recognize that mediumship can honestly gain information that ordinary people can't. I would welcome more academic research into this because it is an area where activity is unexplained as yet.”


Sources:


(a)  "Seeking Meaning Beyond Can People Send Signals After They Die? Psychologist Claims Science Has the Answer," ABC News
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/paranormal/001_pages/002.html

(b)  "Study Shows Psychic Mediums Really Can Read Your Deep Secrets"
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/paranormal/001_pages/007.htm

(c)  "The Ghosts of Flight 401: John G. Fuller's Paranormal Research"
http://www.near-death.com/ghosts.html

(d)  "After-Death Communications: Bill and Judy Guggenheim's Research"
http://www.near-death.com/guggenheim.html



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(44)  Dream research supports the NDE and survival theory.


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Yale University Pediatric Cancer specialist Dr. Diane Komp reported that many dying children have NDEs which often occurred during dreams. One boy, for example, told Dr. Komp that Jesus had visited him in a big yellow school bus and told him he would die soon. The boy died as he predicted.

According to the celebrated psychiatrist and dream analyst, Marie Louise Von Franz, and based on her analysis of over 10,000 dreams of the dying, the meaning being communicated is that the light of the individual, one of the common metaphors for life that we've heard so often, goes out at death but is miraculously renewed on the other side. In other words, the spirit seems to live on. This dream then illustrates perfectly a profound insight of the great psychoanalyst and mentor of Dr. Von Franz, Carl Jung, who has said: "The unconscious psyche believes in a life after death." According to Jung, dream symbols which exist in the very depths of the soul behave as if the psychic life of the individual will continue. In Dr. Von Franz' words: "These symbols depict the end of bodily life and the explicit continuation of psychic life after death. In other words, our last dreams prepare us for death."

One of the strangest cases in the history of dream research is described in the documentary, The Secret World of Dreams. It describes the amazing story of a woman named Claire Sylvia. She was a professional dancer with several modern dance companies. As the years passed, Claire's health began to deteriorate. Claire Sylvia had to undergo a heart and lung transplant. Soon after the transplant, she began having strange and incredibly vivid dreams about a young man she didn't recognize. Eventually, Claire realized that the young man in her dreams was the eighteen-year-old organ donor whose heart and lungs resided in her chest. Through her continuing dream contacts with her donor, she learned a lot about him including his name. She then decided to do the research to find out if this "heavenly" information was correct.


Sources:


(a)  "Dreams and the Near-Death Experience: A Connection to the Afterlife"
http://www.near-death.com/dreams.html

(b)  "Precognitive Dreams"
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/paranormal/001_pages/018.htm



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(45)  Deathbed visions support the NDE and survival theory.


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Dr. Carla Wills-Brandon has researched, in depth, the universal phenomenon of the Deathbed Vision (DBV) and has included her findings in her book, One Last Hug Before I Go. Complete with her own personal encounters, and those of numerous other DBV experiencers, this revolutionary work explores DBVs throughout history, from ancient Egypt to modern-day America. Through the visions and experiences common to all dying people, one can learn more about the spiritual journey that begins with death. According to recent studies, only about 10% of people are conscious shortly before their death. Of this group, 50% to 67% have DBVs.


Sources:


(a)  "Deathbed Visions: Dr. Carla Wills-Brandon's Research"
http://www.near-death.com/deathbed.html

(b)  "Parting Visions," By David Sunfellow
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/nde/001_pages/73.html

(c)  Victor Zammit's A Lawyer Presents the Case for the Afterlife:
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter20.html



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(46)  Remote viewing supports the NDE and survival theory.


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On April 23, 1984, the Washington Post reported: "The Race for Inner Space" about the CIA's remote viewing program. On August 12, 1985, the Deseret News reported: "The United States is Still Involved in ESP-ionage." Other media attention followed. One theory about how remote viewing works is that gifted or trained people can tap into a "Universal Mind." NDE research also suggests the reality of a Universal or Collective Consciousness.

Some of the most credible remote reviewers, such as Joseph McMoneagle, received their remote viewing powers from a near-death experience.


Sources:


(a)  Wikipedia Encyclopedia on Remote Viewing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing

(b)  "The Race for "Inner Space," Washington Post
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/paranormal/001_pages/008.htm

(c)  "The United States is Still Involved in ESP-ionage," Deseret News
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/paranormal/001_pages/009.htm

(d)  Victor Zammit's A Lawyer Presents the Case for the Afterlife:
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter17.html

(e)  "Remote Viewing: An Interview With Joseph McMoneagle," Magical Blend Magazine
http://www.mceagle.com/remote-viewing/pub/media/magicalblend9701.html



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(47)  The efficacy of prayer has been demonstrated under scientific controls.


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On Oct. 25, 1999, BBC News reported: "Healing Power of Prayer Revealed" about a study at a university hospital in Kansas City, U.S. about scientific evidence of healing through the power of prayer. Then on June 5, 2000, BBC News reported: "Prayer Works as a Cure" about a different study conducted at the University of Maryland providing more evidence of healing through prayer. These findings support NDE research findings which demonstrates the reality of a transcendent consciousness.


Sources:


(a)  "Prayer Really Works", Pressbox News
http:///d3bop

(b)  "Prayer Works as a Cure," BBC News
http://home.comcast.net/~neardeath/religion/001_pages/01.html

(c)  "Healing Power of Prayer Revealed," BBC News
http://neardeath.home.comcast.net/religion/001_pages/12.html



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(48)  The "Scole Experiments" during the 1990s support the NDE and survival theory.


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The evidence collected over a period of more than four years and with more than 500 sittings by the Scole experimenters and the afterlife team is absolute, definitive and irrefutable. Many regard them as the greatest recent afterlife experiments in the world. Scole is a village in Norfolk, England. Using it as a base, mediums Robin and Sandra Foy and Alan and Diana Bennett and other experimenters produced brilliant evidence of the afterlife in England, the U.S. Ireland and in Spain. Their results are being repeated by other groups around the world and will convince even the toughest open-minded skeptic. The group began with two mediums delivering messages from a non-physical group. Many of these messages contained personal information that nobody else could know about. Soon the messages came in the form of voices which could be heard by all in the room. Then came the actual materialization of people and objects from the non-physical side.


Sources:


(a)  "Scole: A Response to the Critics" by Montague Keen and Arthur Ellison, from The Scole
Report: Proceedings of the Society for Psychic Research Vol 58 Part 220 November 1999.

(b)  Victor Zammit's A Lawyer Presents the Case for the Afterlife:
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter05.html



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(49)  Astrological concepts have been proven scientifically.


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Serial killers can be identified through their astrological birth chart. There is a correlation between a person's chosen profession and their astrological birth chart. Mental illness can be predicted using astrological principles. Fetuses may be affected by the movement of the sun, moon, and planets as they interfere with the Earth's magnetic field which may have an influence on the fetuses occupation later in life. Women can use the lunar cycle for purposes of contraception. Many terrestrial phenomena are influenced by electromagnetic and gravitational effects originating within the solar system. Sun spot activity affects the molecular structure of water. Sun spot activity affects the molecular structure of blood. Potatoes, rats, fiddler crabs, and oysters are all governed by lunar periods. A theoretical model using principles of mathematics and physics may account for human consciousness and process as it relates to the zodiac. And the astrological concept known as "karma" was demonstrated to be a reality in a study which confirmed that acting selflessly has rewards.


Sources:


(a)  "Heavens Above, the Planets May Affect Us," The Age News
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/05/20/1085028464767.html

(b)  "Astrology and the "Presidential Death Cycle"
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/articles012.html



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(50)  Astrological concepts are found in NDEs.


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Carl Jung, the world-renowned psychologist who had a near-death experience, believed that when people are born, or when anything happens, the influence of the planets are exerted on them. As such, Jung believed astrology is a symbolic system that works through synchronicity, a term coined by Jung. Synchronicity is the belief that everything in the universe is interrelated and that what occurs can be understood as a pattern of meaningful coincidences. Jung's near-death experience was a major influence on his life and work. Jung did an analysis of astrology to determine its place in synchronicity. He studied 483 married couples and noted the astrological connections between the birth dates of married couples. These findings concluded that long lasting relationships had a certain astrological pattern which were found to be three times higher than the rate of coincidence. Also astounding was the fact that the couples whom astrologers would interpret as being the most conducive to marriage were the couples whose astrological pattern occurred most frequently. The pattern that astrologers interpret as least conducive to marriage occurred least often among the couples. Jung calculated the odds of the this result occurring randomly is 1 in 62,500,000. Jung believed incidents like these are the result of synchronicity.


Sources:


(a)  "The NDE and Astrology: Kevin Williams' Research Conclusions"
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research33.html



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(51)  Electronic voice phenomena (EVP) supports the NDE and survival theory.


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For more than 50 years experimenters all over the world have been tape recording 'paranormal voices' -- voices which cannot be heard when a tape-recorder is playing but which can be heard when the tape is played back. Many of the very short messages claim to be from loved ones who have passed on. They are responsive, use the experimenter's name and answer questions. There are thousands of researchers around the world who have been researching this most fascinating psychic phenomenon. At the time of writing, the Internet search engine Google had almost 50,000 listings for EVP. It is particularly relevant to my argument since it follows strict scientific procedures and experiments have been duplicated under laboratory conditions by all kinds of researchers in many different countries. Persistent investigators get a powerful shock when they decide to investigate electronic voice phenomena because by using the proper method of tape recording they are likely to hear voices of loved ones or friends who have died.


Sources:


(a)  Victor Zammit's A Lawyer Presents the Case for the Afterlife:
http://www.victorzammit.com/book/chapter03.html



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(52)  Prominent atheists have had NDEs which caused them to believe in the afterlife.


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Atheists have deathbed experiences and near-death experiences just like everyone else does. The philosophy of Positivism, founded by the famous atheist named A. J. Ayer, is the philosophy that anything not verifiable by the senses is nonsense. Because NDEs mark the end of the senses, Positivists believe the survival of the senses after death is nonsense. But this philosophy has been challenged by its founder A. J. Ayer himself. Later in life, Ayer had a NDE where he saw a red light. Ayer's NDE made him a changed man: "My recent experiences, have slightly weakened my conviction that my genuine death ,  will be the end of me, though I continue to hope that it will be." (Ayer, 1988 a,b) (Read more about it from an article in the National Post and an article by Gerry Lougrhan: Can there be life after life? Ask the atheist! (by Gerry Lougrhan, Letter_From_London, March 18, 2001.)

A non-NDE example comes from Antony Flew, a champion of atheist beliefs for more than 50 years. In a news article titled "Atheist Discovers 'The Science of God'": "One of Britain's most prominent atheists has decided that God might exist after all. Prof Antony Flew, said scientific evidence supports the theory that some sort of intelligence created the universe. Professor Flew, 81, a professor emeritus of philosophy at the University of Reading, said that this was the only explanation for the origin of life ,  "I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots - cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said in his new video, "Has Science Discovered God?"


Sources:


(a)  NDE Analysis of Atheists:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/atheists01.html

(b)  Infidel Death-Beds:
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/george_foote/infidel_deathbeds.html

(c)  Did atheist philosopher see God when he 'died'?:
http://gonsalves.org/favorite/atheist.htm

(d)  Can there be life after life? Ask the atheist!:
http://www.nationaudio.com/News/DailyNation/18032001/Comment/Letter_From_London.html



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(53)  Psychometry supports the NDE and survival theory.


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According to Wikipedia.org, "psychometry" is a psychic ability in which the user is able to relate details about the past condition of an object or area, usually by being in close contact with it. The user could allegedly, for example, give police precise details about a murder or other violent crime if they were at the crime scene or were holding the weapon used. About.com's Paranormal Phenomena website lists information about several of the most convincing psychometrists.

Stefan Ossowiecki, a Russian-born psychic, is one of the most famous psychometrists. Ossowiecki claimed to be able to see people's auras and to move objects through psychokinesis. His psychic gifts enabled this chemical engineer to locate lost objects and missing people, and he assisted in several criminal investigations. In 1935, he participated in a test of his psychometric powers - a test devised by a wealthy Hungarian named Dionizy Jonky that involved a sealed package. Jonky stipulated that this test was to be conducted eight years after his death. (Jonky and Ossowiecki did not know each other.) First, 14 photographs of men were placed in front of Ossowiecki, one of which was of Jonky. Ossowiecki picked out the correct photo. Next, Ossowiecki accurately described many details of Jonky's life and correctly identified the man who held the package for the past eight years. Finally, Ossowiecki was presented with the sealed package Jonky had prepared before his death. Ossowiecki touched the package and concentrated. "Volcanic minerals," he said. "There is something here that pulls me to other worlds, to another planet." Oddly, he also sensed sugar. Inside the package was a meteorite encased in a candy wrapper.

In later experiments, Ossowiecki performed remarkable psychometric feats with archeological objects - a kind of psychic archeology. These tests were conducted by Stanislaw Poniatowski, a professor of enthology at the University of Warsaw who could verify the accuracy of what Ossowiecki "saw." While holding a 10,000-year-old piece of flint, Ossowiecki was able to describe in amazing detail the lives of the prehistoric people who made it. In other tests he provided similar descriptions of people who lived as long ago as 300,000 years. Some of the information he provided was not even known by experts at the time, but confirmed by discoveries years later!

Ossowiecki described his visions as being like a motion picture that he could watch, pause, rewind and fast-forward - like a videotape or DVD.


Sources:


(a)  "What You Need To Know About ,  Psychometry":
http://paranormal.about.com/cs/espinformation/a/aa063003_3.htm

(b)  "A World In A Grain Of Sand: The Clairvoyance Of Stefan Ossowiecki"
by M. Barrington, Ian Stevenson, Z. Weaver.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In the light of the near-death experience, death is nothing more than the illusion of separateness and finality, and those who can believe in this vision of death, like near-death experiencers themselves, lose all fear of it, for how can you fear that which does not exist?" - Dr. Ken Ring

Jen33,

I could of course engage in a point by point refutation of all the points you bring here, but I have neither the time, nor the energy to do that. You could of course pick one of your points, any one for that matter, and ask me to refute it. Something I am willing to do.

No matter how you twist and turn, you have zero evidence that a NDE is anything more than a result of specific brainstates, many of which can be chemically induced.

Jen33,

I could of course engage in a point by point refutation of all the points you bring here, but I have neither the time, nor the energy to do that. You could of course pick one of your points, any one for that matter, and ask me to refute it. Something I am willing to do.

No matter how you twist and turn, you have zero evidence that a NDE is anything more than a result of specific brainstates, many of which can be chemically induced.

Why are so many ND experiencers ''induced by chemicals'' to experience being told by an entity words to the effect that ''you must return to earth, it's not yet your time''? If you've studied NDE accounts this is a recurring message reported by majority of experiencers.

And what about their meeting deceased relatives and friends, who sometimes take them on journeys across that realm? Or the case of those who return with scientific knowledge? What about the fact that most experiencers undergo a complete change in their personality towards greater spirituality, (not necessarily religiousity by the way), empathy, and an absence of the fear of death?

Why and how does the ''dying brain chemical'' do  all of that?

Should YOU not have to prove THAT to us?

Why don't you drop this misguided skepticism of yours and  see that there's got to be far more to this than some silly 'dying brain chemical imbalance'?

Lastly, what gives YOU the right, the audacity in fact, to dismiss the experiences of millions of people as mere chemical-induced hallucinations, when they themselves have invariably reported their experiences to be real?

It's like somebody saying that YOUR present state of consciousness IS NOT REALLY CONSCIOUSNESS, but some chemically-induced illusionary state.

You'd feel like slapping them wouldn't u?

Jen33:

Why are so many ND experiencers ''induced by chemicals'' to experience being told by an entity words to the effect that ''you must return to earth, it's not yet your time''? If you've studied NDE accounts this is a recurring message reported by majority of experiencers.

Because their mental modes include those entities to start with. When certain brain receptors are inhibited due to a lack of oxygen, ketamine ensures that these brain cells don't die off, the effect of ketamine is that other mental modes (not the one where a feeling of inhibiting or observing from within a body) come to be dominant. Remembering something is not an exact recall of sensory inputs anyway. There are a lot of blanks we fill in from other information, that's why eyewitness reports are notoriously unreliable. Most of our memories of experiences are not exact, but only useful approximations.
In one of the links you gave it was even mentioned that the incidence of meeting these entities neatly correlates with the prior religiosity/spirituality of the subjects. Is that a coincidence?

Jen33:

And what about their meeting deceased relatives and friends, who sometimes take them on journeys across that realm? Or the case of those who return with scientific knowledge?

These are exactly the kind of memories that are made up and become more and more detailed as time passes; Concerning those coming back with scientific knowledge they didn't have before, I need to see some evidence that it doesn't come from elsewhere. People are way to credulous.

Jen33:

What about the fact that most experiencers undergo a complete change in their personality towards greater spirituality, (not necessarily religiousity by the way), empathy, and an absence of the fear of death?

If you go through such an experience, it will affect you, regardless of what the ultimate cause of the experience is. Maybe we should all go through such an experience, if only to rid ourselves from the shackles of religion

Jen33:

Why and how does the ''dying brain chemical'' do all of that?

Easy: a basic common set of memories that get elaborated upon later by false memories; the blanks are filled in by the existing memeplexes in the brain.

Jen33:

Should YOU not have to prove THAT to us?

Prove? Why? My explanation is far more parsimonious than yours, thus it is objectively more credible.

Jen33:

Why don't you drop this misguided skepticism of yours and see that there's got to be far more to this than some silly 'dying brain chemical imbalance'?

The universe doesn't owe us meaning or an explantion. It's not because you have an emotional need for meaning that there is ultimate meaning. We're only containers for self-replicating DNA, nothing more.

Jen33:

Lastly, what gives YOU the right, the audacity in fact, to dismiss the experiences of millions of people as mere chemical-induced hallucinations, when they themselves have invariably reported their experiences to be real?

All [/b]experiences are merely chemically induced hallucinations, [b]all of them. Some however have more resemblance to reality than others and that resemblance has nothing to do with how real they feel, but rather with the context of these experiences.

Jen33:

It's like somebody saying that YOUR present state of consciousness IS NOT REALLY CONSCIOUSNESS, but some chemically-induced illusionary state.

That's exactly what it is. It's only an emergent property of my neurological machinery, it doesn't inhabit my brain, but is part of it.

Jen33:

You'd feel like slapping them wouldn't u?

No, absolutely not

Quote from: Jen33 on Today at 01:17:53 PM
Why are so many ND experiencers ''induced by chemicals'' to experience being told by an entity words to the effect

that ''you must return to earth, it's not yet your time''? If you've studied NDE accounts this is a recurring message

reported by majority of experiencers.

Because their mental modes include those entities to start with.

Not always. Some experiencers have reported meeting relatives they'd NEVER MET on earth, such as great grandfathers, great aunts etc etc. Only to return to this life and have their identities confirmed by other relatives.

How do your mysterious 'mental modules' produce such an astonishing outcome?

When certain brain receptors are inhibited due to a lack of oxygen, ketamine ensures that these brain cells don't die off, the effect of ketamine is that other mental modes (not the one where a feeling of inhibiting or observing from within a body) come to be dominant. Remembering something is not an exact recall of sensory inputs anyway. There are a lot of blanks we fill in from other information, that's why eyewitness reports are notoriously unreliable. Most of our memories of experiences are not exact, but only useful approximations.

Sorry but this is a highly unsatisfactory attempt at explaining the NDE phenomenon. Mere saying that ketamine is released owing to oxygen shortage does not negate the reality of the experience. It's like someone saying you're not really hungry. What you're feeling is merely a 'chemical imbalance' caused by lack of food to your guts. While there may indeed be such an imbalance, it does not obviate the reality of the situation ie, that you were hungry.

Comprende?

The NDE experience cannot be explained by mere allusion to a physical manifestation of distress in blatant disregard of further realities reported by the experiencer.

In one of the links you gave it was even mentioned that the incidence of meeting these entities neatly correlates with the prior religiosity/spirituality of the subjects. Is that a coincidence?

This is true, but does not obviate the reality of the experience. The Being of Light encountered by many an experiencer does not announce himself as Jesus or Buddha or Horus or Ifa. It is the experiencer that labels the Being based on his/her earthly religious persuasion.

But ALL experiencers have described SIMILAR sensations of Unconditional Love and Acceptance issuing from the person of this Being.

Again, I'm at a loss as to how a dying brain's last throes could 'chemically' fashion out such wondrous, momentous realities identified by virtually ALL Near Death experiencers.

Quote from: Jen33 on Today at 01:17:53 PM
And what about their meeting deceased relatives and friends, who sometimes take them on journeys across that realm? Or the case of those who return with scientific knowledge?

These are exactly the kind of memories that are made up and become more and more detailed as time passes; Concerning those coming back with scientific knowledge they didn't have before, I need to see some evidence that it doesn't come from elsewhere. People are way too credulous.

Ah. So they are lying then? Making things up.

But WHY would a man that just suffered serious trauma like heart attack or cancer return from clinically certified death to 'make things up'?

Ever asked yourself that question?

Then ask yourself why THOUSANDS of trauma victims would follow suit and ''make things up''.

You take incredulity to new, preposterous heights.

Quote from: Jen33 on Today at 01:17:53 PM
What about the fact that most experiencers undergo a complete change in their personality towards greater spirituality, (not necessarily religiosity by the way), empathy, and an absence of the fear of death?

If you go through such an experience, it will affect you, regardless of what the ultimate cause of the experience is. Maybe we should all go through such an experience, if only to rid ourselves from the shackles of religion

Oh of course it wll 'affect' you - but WHY in the manner it does them? WHY does the experience engender greater spirituality for instance, or end the fear of death? I would think it takes FAR MORE than some random chemical reaction  to induce such radical, near - uniform, and apparently permanent personality alterations.

Quote from: Jen33 on Today at 01:17:53 PM
Should YOU not have to prove THAT to us?

Prove? Why? My explanation is far more parsimonious than yours, thus it is objectively more credible.

It takes the most astounding arrogance to arrogate to yourself an ''explanation'' that flies in the face of the reported experiences of millions of people, even more unforgivable to relegate their accounts to the status of mere tales lacking in 'objectivity'.

Quote from: Jen33 on Today at 01:17:53 PM
Why don't you drop this misguided skepticism of yours and  see that there's got to be far more to this than some silly 'dying brain chemical imbalance'?

The universe doesn't owe us meaning or an explantion. It's not because you have an emotional need for meaning that there is ultimate meaning.

The search for meaning is not an emotional one - unless you're referring to religion.

More of an intellectual one. And if ND experiencers can make meaning of their experience, it becomes illogical for you to reject their accounts based on your prejudices with regard to the supposed inacessibility of 'ultimate meaning'.

We're only containers for self-replicating DNA, nothing more.

I am of the belief that we are also containers for an immortal soul or consciousness that is capable of existing independently of the human coat - whose function is to act as a container for the human soul on the earth plane.

This is a belief that is shared by all the millions of people who have had a near-death experience. Your beliefs are based on the skeptical regurgitations of people who have NOT had anything resembling such an experience.

Quote from: Jen33 on Today at 01:17:53 PM
Lastly, what gives YOU the right, the audacity in fact, to dismiss the experiences of millions of people as mere chemical-induced hallucinations, when they themselves have invariably reported their experiences to be real?

All experiences are merely chemically induced hallucinations, all of them. Some however have more resemblance to reality than others and that resemblance has nothing to do with how real they feel, but rather with the context of these experiences.

Ok, I know what you're driving at here. All matter is illusion as all we're doing is interpretating electro-magnetic waves which appear to us as 'solid' objects.

But again, reality in the afterlife, is - as on earth - what is perceived to be real by the observer.

And many Experiencers have said that the reality of the NDE is of a far higher order and poignancy than what we can ever experience on the earth plane.

It has been described as similar to waking from a dream - the dream being the earth plane existence.

Again, we have to look to their accounts for what the situation is, and if they don't fit into your inherited paradigms, it's no one's fault but YOURS!

You simply need to jettison your ideas regarding what u suppose to be the limits of reality.

They've been made redundant by new realities, if u excuse the pun.

Jen33:

Because their mental modes include those entities to start with.

Not always. Some experiencers have reported meeting relatives they'd NEVER MET on earth, such as great grandfathers, great aunts etc etc. Only to return to this life and have their identities confirmed by other relatives.

There is no incidence of any of these experiences to include information they couldn't have come up with

Jen33:

How do your mysterious 'mental modules' produce such an astonishing outcome?

How credulous can one be? through suggestive interviewing techniques. Ever hear of the so-called satanic abuses psychiatrists uncovered or the alien abduction stories. You might want to read the Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, it will go a long way of peeling the shells of credulity from your eyes.

Jen33:

Sorry but this is a highly unsatisfactory attempt at explaining the NDE phenomenon. Mere saying that ketamine is released owing to oxygen shortage does not negate the reality of the experience. It's like someone saying you're not really hungry. What you're feeling is merely a 'chemical imbalance' caused by lack of food to your guts. While there may indeed be such an imbalance, it does not obviate the reality of the situation ie, that you were hungry.

Playing semantic games, are we?
Apart from the stories, there is no independent confirmation of the truth of these experiences, while the hunger is real in many different senses. If you stop eating, you will die.

Jen33:

Comprende?

The NDE experience cannot be explained by mere allusion to a physical manifestation of distress in blatant disregard of further realities reported by the experiencer.

Defining things into existence, are we? Where's the evidence of these realities?

Jen33:

This is true, but does not obviate the reality of the experience. The Being of Light encountered by many an experiencer does not announce himself as Jesus or Buddha or Horus or Ifa. It is the experiencer that labels the Being based on his/her earthly religious persuasion.

Exactly, and atheists don't give any divine interpretation to that 'being of light' when they undergo a NDE. What does that tell you?

Jen33:

But ALL experiencers have described SIMILAR sensations of Unconditional Love and Acceptance issuing from the person of this Being.

Something that can be invoked by administering ketamine. Do learn a little bit about the working of the brain before you draw unwarranted conclusions. Maybe you can read some Pinker.

Jen33:

Again, I'm at a loss as to how a dying brain's last throes could 'chemically' fashion out such wondrous, momentous realities identified by virtually ALL Near Death experiencers.

These are exactly the kind of memories that are made up and become more and more detailed as time passes; Concerning those coming back with scientific knowledge they didn't have before, I need to see some evidence that it doesn't come from elsewhere. People are way too credulous.

Ah. So they are lying then? Making things up.

Lying, no, because they don't have the intention to deceive. Making things up, definitely.

Jen33:

But WHY would a man that just suffered serious trauma like heart attack or cancer return from clinically certified death to 'make things up'?

Because they did have some profound experience and without the mental mode whereby the self is in control over it's body as far as the senses is concerned, they interprete that experience using their existing memeplexes. Besides, why is not really a relevant question, because they're no ultimate reason for that experience

Jen33:

Ever asked yourself that question?

Yes, but I know that's the wrong question to ask.

Jen33:

Then ask yourself why THOUSANDS of trauma victims would follow suit and ''make things up''.

You take incredulity to new, preposterous heights.

Pot, kettle anyone?

Jen33:

If you go through such an experience, it will affect you, regardless of what the ultimate cause of the experience is. Maybe we should all go through such an experience, if only to rid ourselves from the shackles of religion

Oh of course it wll 'affect' you - but WHY in the manner it does them? WHY does the experience engender greater spirituality for instance, or end the fear of death? I would think it takes FAR MORE than some random chemical reaction to induce such radical, near - uniform, and apparently permanent personality alterations.

Personal incredulity is the answer, then? Maybe, you can read up on the works of Susan Blackmore, who investigated NDE's scientifically, very much in opposition to the 'believers'.

Jen33:

Prove? Why? My explanation is far more parsimonious than yours, thus it is objectively more credible.

It takes the most astounding arrogance to arrogate to yourself an ''explanation'' that flies in the face of the reported experiences of millions of people, even more unforgivable to relegate their accounts to the status of mere tales lacking in 'objectivity'.

Once more, I don't deny their experiences, I question the explanations given to them. If their realities are anything more than a result of their brainstates, then there also must be some supporting evidence thereof from different sources. There is none.
If LSD can make one hallucinate, why wouldn't a profound altering of the brain states, caused by a NDE not be able to do the same thing? You just bring in unevidenced entities without any sound reason.

Jen33:

The universe doesn't owe us meaning or an explantion. It's not because you have an emotional need for meaning that there is ultimate meaning.

The search for meaning is not an emotional one - unless you're referring to religion.

More of an intellectual one. And if ND experiencers can make meaning of their experience, it becomes illogical for you to reject their accounts based on your prejudices with regard to the supposed inacessibility of 'ultimate meaning'.

OK, why don't you bring your first piece of undeniable evidence for that spirit world and I will start listening. There's nothing illogical in my approach. You assume that the universe owes you meaning and presuppose it in those NDE's, rejecting a merely materialistic explanation of the same phenomenon on emotional grounds, because it lacks 'meaning'.

Jen33:

I am of the belief that we are also containers for an immortal soul or consciousness that is capable of existing independently of the human coat - whose function is to act as a container for the human soul on the earth plane.

It's merely faith, i.e. belief without evidence. it's no better than the explanations from the religious creed. You're tied up in naive essentialism.

Jen33:

This is a belief that is shared by all the millions of people who have had a near-death experience. Your beliefs are based on the skeptical regurgitations of people who have NOT had anything resembling such an experience.

Argumentam ad populum. Try again. And do read the research of Susan Blackmore, she did have such an experience but didn't jump to unwarranted conclusions.

Jen33:

All experiences are merely chemically induced hallucinations, all of them. Some however have more resemblance to reality than others and that resemblance has nothing to do with how real they feel, but rather with the context of these experiences.

Ok, I know what you're driving at here. All matter is illusion as all we're doing is interpretating electro-magnetic waves which appear to us as 'solid' objects.

But again, reality in the afterlife, is - as on earth - what is perceived to be real by the observer. .

Is it now? Maybe you can start a new branch of philosophy, using imaginary logic as well

Jen33:

And many Experiencers have said that the reality of the NDE is of a far higher order and poignancy than what we can ever experience on the earth plane.

It has been described as similar to waking from a dream - the dream being the earth plane existence.

So, and?

Jen33:

Again, we have to look to their accounts for what the situation is, and if they don't fit into your inherited paradigms, it's no one's fault but YOURS!

But, contrary to my paradigms, yours are completely unfalisfiable and scientifically utterly useless

Jen33:

You simply need to jettison your ideas regarding what u suppose to be the limits of reality.

They've been made redundant by new realities, if u excuse the pun.

Where's the evidence, my dear, the evidence?

The evidence?

It's been presented to you on this thread. Links have been posted to mountains of evidence of survival of consciousness, which you pretend not to see.

You've presented precious little yourself apart from puerile name-dropping and glib references to ketamine and Susan Blackmore, whose arguments were destroyed in one of the links I presented, which u no doubt ignored.

I can't imagine your future state of distress and possible shock, when, upon your passing, you find that you're not really dead.

Only then will a person like you get the ''evidence'' you demand.

Nothing else will suffice in your instance, and that's ok too. 

Jen33:

The evidence?

It's been presented to you on this thread. Links have been posted to mountains of evidence of survival of consciousness, which you pretend not to see.

The only evidence you've presented is the overwhelming evidence for the existence of NDE's, not for the survival of the consciousness. I know you like to equate the two, but they're not the same. You're not allowed to define things into existence.

Jen33:

You've presented precious little yourself apart from puerile name-dropping and glib references to ketamine and Susan Blackmore, whose arguments were destroyed in one of the links I presented, which u no doubt ignored.

1. I really wouldn't need to present evidence, as it's your case to make, but, contrary to what you say, those two references come from published, peer reviewed research in reputable publications. You only seem to be able to find references to journals like the Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research
2. Susan Blackmore's arguments were not destroyed at all. The critique by Greg Stone was full of logical, methodological and epistemological errors. He constantly falls in the trap of the most common logical phalacy, namely assuming the consequent, something you seem to have a knack for yourself.

Jen33:

I can't imagine your future state of distress and possible shock, when, upon your passing, you find that you're not really dead.

Assuming the consequent, that's what I was talking about, wasn't I?

Jen33:

Only then will a person like you get the ''evidence'' you demand.

Clearly you rants against religion are empty, as you dare not apply the same rigorous dissection of your own belief system, but who should be surprised, it's like watching Muslims and Christians in a catfight.

Jen33:

Nothing else will suffice in your instance, and that's ok too.

Have you ever wondered how closely your line of reasoning mimics that of the Christians you so much like to criticise?

Nferyn, my focus on NDE's should not suggest to you that I consider them the only evidence of survival of consciousness outside of the human body. Other evidence comes from documented cases of Remote Viewing, After-death Communication, Astral Projection, Deathbed Visions, Psychic Readings, and a whole host of paranormal feats which you no doubt consider invalid owing to their operating outside of your inherited paradigms.

NDE's are simply the most dramatic instances of consciousness existing outside of the human body.

Survival of consciousness has a lot of evidence in many forms to back it up, and your casual dismissal of the entire weight of anecdotal evidence can hardly be described as scientific.

More like an act of religion.

Here's an interesting read. In fact, the author must have had you in mind when he penned it:


---------------------------------


Who's Afraid of Life After Death?

By Neal Grossman

When researchers ask the question, "How can the near-death experience be explained?" they tend to make the usual assumption that an acceptable explanation will be in terms of concepts—biological, neurological, psychological—with which they are already familiar.

The near-death experience (NDE) would then be explained, for example, if it could be shown what brain state, which drugs, or what beliefs on the part of the experiencer correlate with the NDE. Those who have concluded that the NDE cannot be explained mean that it cannot be, or has not yet been, correlated with any physical or psychological condition of the experiencer.

I wish to suggest that this approach to explaining the NDE is fundamentally misguided.

To my knowledge, no one who has had an NDE feels any need for an explanation in the reductionist sense that researchers are seeking. For the experiencer, the NDE does not need to be explained because it is exactly what it purports to be, which is, at a minimum, the direct experience of consciousness—or minds, or selves, or personal identity—existing independently of the physical body.

It is only with respect to our deeply entrenched materialist paradigm that the NDE needs to be explained, or more accurately, explained away.

In this article, I will take the position that materialism has been shown to be empirically false; and hence, what does need to be explained is the academic establishment's collective refusal to examine the evidence and to see it for what it is. The academic establishment is in the same position today as the bishop who refused to look through Galileo's telescope. Why is this the case?

Before addressing this question, I'd like to say something about the kind and strength of evidence that refutes materialism. Emily Williams Cook, Bruce Greyson, and Ian Stevenson (1998) describe "three features of NDEs—enhanced mentation, the experience of seeing the physical body from a different position in space, and paranormal perception—which we believe might provide convergent evidence supporting the survival hypothesis."

They then go on to describe fourteen cases that satisfy these criteria. From an epistemological perspective, the third criterion, paranormal perception, is the most important. The materialist can, in principle, give no account of how a person acquires veridical information about events remote from his or her body. Consider, for example, the kind of case where the NDEer accurately reports the conversation occurring in the waiting room while his or her body is unconscious in the operating room.

There is no way for the relevant information, conveyed in sound waves or light waves, to travel from the waiting room, through corridors and up elevators, to reach the sense organs of the unconscious person. Yet the person wakes from the operation with the information. This kind of case—and there are lots of them—shows quite straightforwardly that there are nonphysical ways in which the mind can acquire information. Hence materialism is false.

Perhaps the "smoking gun" case is the one described by Michael Sabom in his book Light and Death. In this case, the patient had her NDE while her body temperature was lowered to 60 degrees, and all the blood was drained from her body. "Her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain."

A brain in this state cannot create any kind of experience. Yet the patient reported a profound NDE. Those materialists who believe that consciousness is secreted by the brain, or that the brain is necessary for conscious experience to exist, cannot possibly explain, in their own terms, cases such as this.

An impartial observer would have to conclude that not all experience is produced by the brain, and that therefore the falsity of materialism has been empirically demonstrated. Thus, what needs to be explained is the abysmal failure of the academic establishment to examine this evidence and to embrace the conclusion: Materialism is false, and consciousness can and does exist independently of the body.

Moreover, the evidence against materialism comes not only from the NDE, but from other areas of research as well. Both mediumship, which has been extensively investigated since the time of William James, and Stevenson-type cases of children who have verified true memories of past lives, offer an abundance of evidence against materialism.

The best epistemological analysis of the evidence is given by Robert Almeder: After a lengthy and detailed discussion of past-life cases, he calls the researcher to task for concluding only that "it is rational to believe in reincarnation, given the evidence." The proper conclusion, according to Almeder, should be "it is irrational not to believe in reincarnation, given the evidence." I agree with Almeder.

Our collective irrationality with respect to the wealth of evidence against materialism manifests in two ways: (i) by ignoring the evidence, and (ii) by insisting on overly stringent standards of evidence, that, if adopted, would render any empirical science impossible.

One of my earliest encounters with this kind of academic irrationality occurred more than twenty years ago. I was devouring everything on the near-death experience I could get my hands on, and eager to share what I was discovering with colleagues. It was unbelievable to me how dismissive they were of the evidence. "Drug-induced hallucinations," "last gasp of a dying brain," and "people see what they want to see" were some of the more commonly used phrases. One conversation in particular caused me to see more clearly the fundamental irrationality of academics with respect to evidence against materialism. I asked, "What about people who accurately report the details of their operation?"

"Oh," came the reply, "they probably just subconsciously heard the conversation in the operating room, and their brain subconsciously transposed the audio information into a visual format."

"Well," I responded, "what about cases where people report veridical perception of events remote from their body?"

"Oh, that's just a coincidence or a lucky guess."

Exasperated, I asked, "What will it take, short of having a near-death experience yourself, to convince you that it's real?"  (Same question I asked Nferyn incidentally)


Very nonchalantly, without batting an eye, the response was "Even if I were to have a near-death experience myself, I would conclude that I was hallucinating, rather than believe that my mind can exist independently of my brain." He went on to add that dualism (the philosophical thesis that asserts mind and matter are independent substances, neither of which can be reduced to the other) is a false theory, and that there cannot be evidence for something that's false.

This was a momentous experience for me, because here was an educated, intelligent man telling me that he will not give up materialism, no matter what.

Even the evidence of his own experience would not cause him to give up materialism.  

I realized two things in that moment. First, this experience cured me of any impulse to argue these things with recalcitrant colleagues; it is pointless to argue with someone who tells me that his mind is already made up, and nothing I can say will change it. Second, this experience taught me that it is important to distinguish between

(a) materialism as an empirical hypothesis about the nature of the world, which is amenable to evidence one way or the other (this is the hallmark of a scientific hypothesis—that evidence is relevant for its truth or falsity) and

(b) materialism as an ideology, or paradigm, about how things "must" be, which is impervious to evidence (this is the hallmark of an unscientific hypothesis—that evidence is not relevant for its truth). (Nferyn anyone?)

My colleague believed in materialism not as a scientific hypothesis that, qua scientific hypothesis, might be false, but rather as dogma and ideology that "must" be true, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

For him, materialism is the fundamental paradigm in terms of which everything else is explained, but which is not itself open to doubt. I shall coin the term "fundamaterialist" to refer to those who believe that materialism is a necessary truth, not amenable to empirical evidence. I call it fundamaterialism to make explicit comparison with fundamentalism in religion.

Fundamentalism connotes an attitude of certainty towards one's core belief. Just as the fundamentalist Christian is absolutely certain that the world was created in the manner described by The Bible (fossil evidence notwithstanding), so also the fundamaterialist is absolutely certain that there exists nothing that is not made up of matter or physical energy (NDE and other evidence notwithstanding).

In fact, and this is the crucial point, their respective beliefs have nothing to do with evidence. As my fundamaterialist colleague put it, "There can't be evidence for something that's false."

With respect to (a), materialism held as an empirical hypothesis about the world, the evidence against it is overwhelming.

With respect to (b), materialism held as an ideology, evidence against it is logically impossible.

A complicating factor is that the fundamaterialist typically holds the metabelief that his belief in materialism is not ideological, but empirical. That is, he misclassifies himself under (a), while his behavior clearly falls under (b). The debunker and skeptic believe they are being "scientific" in ignoring and rejecting the evidence against materialism.

But when asked what kind of evidence it would take to convince them that materialism is empirically false, they are, like my colleague, usually at a loss for what to say. If they're not familiar with the data, they'll come up with a criterion of evidence that in fact has already been met. When it is pointed out that there exist many well-documented cases that satisfy the proposed criterion, they will simply make the criterion more stringent, and at some point they cross the line between the reasonable demand for scientific evidence and the unreasonable (and unscientific) demand for logical proof. (Nferyn anyone?)


Philosophy & Afterlife
We might think that, of all the disciplines, philosophy ought to be most interested in, and would meticulously study, all the research on the NDE. After all, isn't philosophy supposed to be concerned with questions of ultimate meaning, of the purpose of life, of the relation between mind and body, of God? NDE research has data that are directly relevant to all of these questions. So how is it possible that philosophy has collectively managed to ignore and even ridicule this research?

To those outside academic philosophy, it may come as a surprise to learn that the great majority of academic philosophers are atheists and materialists. While they incorrectly use science to support their materialism, they systematically ignore the findings of science that refute their materialism.

And, more surprisingly, even those philosophers who are not materialists (and their number, I think, is growing) refuse to look at the data. One would think that Cartesian dualists or Platonists would eagerly devour the wealth of data that strongly support their point of view that mind transcends the physical world, but that is not the case.

I would like to share a personal experience that highlights some of the attitudes involved. In the late 1970s, when the early research on the NDE was just being published, I was involved in team-teaching a course with one of the campus chaplains. Excitedly, I shared what I was learning about the NDE, thinking he would welcome empirical data that, at the very least, constituted strong prima facie evidence for much of what he believed in—soul, afterlife, ultimate responsibility for one's actions, a higher power, etc.

To my astonishment, he was just as dismissive of the evidence as was my fundamaterialist colleague. When I questioned him about why he was so resistant to the data, he said, in effect, that his belief in God, afterlife, etc. is based on faith, and if these things were decidable empirically, there would be no room left for faith, which for him was the foundation of his religious convictions.

I knew then that the NDE is between a rock and a hard place, because it is not taken seriously by the two disciplines that should be the most interested in it—philosophy and theology. Once theology and religion open the door to empirical evidence, then the possibility arises that the evidence may contradict some aspects of what was believed solely on the basis of faith. Indeed, this has already happened.

The evidence from the NDE, for example, suggests that God is not vengeful, does not judge us or condemn us, and is not angry at us for our "sins"; there is judgment, to be sure, but the reports appear to be in agreement that all judgment comes from within the individual, not from the Being of Light. It seems, in fact, that all God is capable of giving us is unconditional love. But the concept of an all-loving, nonjudgmental God contradicts and undermines the teachings of many religions, and thus it is no wonder that religious fundamentalists are uncomfortable with the near-death experience.


Strange Bedfellows
One conclusion I have come to over the years is that both the atheist and the believer, from the fundamaterialist to the fundamentalist, share something in common. In fact, from an epistemological perspective, what they have in common is much more significant than what they disagree about. What they agree about is this: Beliefs pertaining to the possible existence of a transcendent reality—God, soul, afterlife, etc.—are based on faith, not fact. If this is true, then there can be no factual evidence that pertains to such beliefs.

This metabelief—that beliefs about a transcendent reality cannot be empirically based—is so deeply entrenched in our culture that it has the status of a taboo. The taboo is very democratic in that it allows everyone to believe whatever he or she wants to believe about such matters.

This allows the fundamaterialist to feel comfortable in her conviction that reason is on her side, that there is no afterlife, and that those who believe otherwise have fallen prey to the forces of irrationality and wishful thinking. But it also allows the fundamentalist to feel comfortable in his conviction that he has God on his side, and that those who believe otherwise have fallen prey to the forces of Satan and evil.

Thus, although the fundamentalist and the fundamaterialist are on opposite extremes of the spectrum of possible attitudes towards an afterlife, the extreme positions they hold unite them as "strange bedfellows" or ''opposames'' in their battles against the possibility that there are matters of fact about the afterlife that empirical research might discover. The very suggestion that empirical research might be relevant to beliefs pertaining to a transcendent reality—that such beliefs are subject to empirical constraint—runs strongly against this taboo, and is thus very threatening to most elements of our culture.


The Purpose of Life
Research on the NDE has yielded the following unambiguous conclusion: NDEers confirm basic values common to most of the world's religions. The purpose of life, NDEers agree, is knowledge and love. Studies on the transformative effect of the NDE show that the cultural values of wealth, status, material possessions and so on become much less important, and the perennial religious values of love, caring for others, and acquiring knowledge about the divine ascend to greater importance.

That is, the studies show that NDEers not only verbally profess the values of love and knowledge, but they tend to operate in accordance with these values, if not entirely, then at least more so than before their NDE.

As long as religious values are presented as merely religious values, then it is easy for popular culture to ignore them or give them minimal lip service on Sunday mornings. But if these same religious values are presented as empirically verified scientific facts, then everything changes.

If the belief in an afterlife were to be accepted not on the basis of faith or on the basis of speculative theology, but as a well-confirmed scientific hypothesis, then this could not be ignored by our culture. In fact, it would mean the end of our culture in its present form.

Consider the following scenario: Further research on the NDE confirms in great detail what has already been established; many more cases of confirmed veridical perceptions while "out of body" are collected and documented; advancing medical technology makes possible many more "smoking gun" cases of the type discussed above; longitudinal studies on NDEers confirm the already observed behavioral changes aligned with their newly acquired (or recently reinforced) spiritual values; and so forth. The studies are replicated in different cultures with the same results. Eventually, the weight of evidence begins to set in, and scientists are ready to announce to the world, if not as fact, then at least as highly confirmed scientific hypotheses:

(1) There is an afterlife.

(2) Our real identity is not our body, but our mind or consciousness.

(3) Although the details of the afterlife are not known, we are reasonably certain that everyone will experience a life review in which the individual experiences not only every event and every emotion of his or her life, but also the effects his or her behavior, positive or negative, have had on others. The usual defense mechanisms by which we hide from ourselves our sometimes cruel and less-than-compassionate behavior towards others seem not to operate during the life review.

(4) The purpose of life is love and knowledge—to learn as much as possible about both this world and the transcendent world, and to grow in our ability to feel kindness and compassion towards all beings.

(5) A consequence of (3) is that it appears to be a great disadvantage to oneself to harm another person, either physically or psychologically, since whatever pain one inflicts on another is experienced as one's own in the life review.

This scenario is by no means far-fetched. I believe there is already sufficient evidence to present the above propositions as "probable" or "more likely than not" based on the evidence.

Further studies will only increase the probability.

When this happens, the fallout will be revolutionary. When these findings are announced by science, it will become impossible for our culture to do business as usual, either economically, or politically, or academically. It would be interesting to speculate what an economy that tries to align itself with the above five empirical hypotheses might look like, but that is a project well beyond the scope of this article.

The findings of NDE researchers would mark the beginning of the end of a culture whose driving forces have been greed and ambition, and which measures success in terms of material possessions, wealth, reputation, social status, etc. The present culture, therefore, has an enormous vested interest in undermining NDE research, which it does by ignoring, debunking, and otherwise marginalizing the research.

I'll close with a little story. C. D. Broad, a famous British philosopher who wrote in the mid-twentieth century, served as president of the British Society for Psychical Research. He was the last philosopher with an international reputation who believed there was something to it. Toward the end of his life, he was asked how he would feel if he found himself still present after his body had died. He replied that he would feel more disappointed than surprised. Not surprised, because his investigations led him to conclude that an afterlife was more likely than not. But why disappointed? His reply was disarmingly honest.

He said, in effect, that he had had a good life: that he was comfortable materially, and that he enjoyed admiration and respect from students and colleagues. There is no guarantee that his status, reputation, and comfort would carry over intact into the afterlife. The rules by which success is measured in the afterlife might be quite different from the rules according to which success is measured in this life. And indeed, NDE research suggests that C. D. Broad's fears were well-founded, that "success" by afterlife standards is measured, not in terms of publications, grants, or reputation, but rather by acts of kindness and compassion toward others.


NEAL GROSSMAN has a PhD in the history and philosophy of science from Indiana University, and is an associate professor at the University of Illinois, Chicago. His special interests are Spinoza, mysticism, and the epistemology of parapsychological research. Contact information: nealg@uic.edu

the thing wey science go cause , ok oo, keep posting up sh&t

How does op know about the life after death and the spirit guides and so on? These are dogmas based on myths. A living dog is better than a dead lion, and there is no major difference b/w the animals and humans after death as far as we know. Read Ecclesiates in the bible for further understanding. Myths of life after death are ways humans cope with the anxiety and feelings of sadness when we are bereaved, reinforced by dreams and pseudo-hallucinations of the dead. The true existence is only when you are alive. Your genes live on through your offspring and family members.