free123: @Barrister
i can understand ur frustration seeing the fallacy u peddled for long being exposed in the light of the truth. It is a shame that anyone with different view from ur falsehood u lump same together with catholics. I got tired reading the nonsense u spewed above. Do u think lengthy and incoherent falsehood wins a case?
Quoting scriptures for u is a waste of time seeing that u have swallowed every bit of rubbish from watchtower and that will not allow u to see that Jesus Christ is not angel Michael even from d falsehood u peddle.
Last question for falsehood peddlers - where in ur own version of the bible is Jesus Christ called Archangel Michael?

@plapp
Jesus existed as God and exists as God. Numerous scriptures attest to that

All the long post by Barrister is to support the apologetic watch-tower of which they are trademarked with, changin doctrines yr after yr calin it 'light is gettin brighter' and an educated mind will buy dis fallacy. Tufiakwa! God forbid.

This 'arch angel michael' falacy was not even associated with their foundin fathers, either Russel or Rutherford (dat does not however exonorate them as master Bible twister to support their devilsh doctrines).

The book of Hebrew chapter one is enof to nullify all watchtower lies wrt this topic. Arch-angel is still an angel. To the Jw Jesus christ is an angel, pure and simple. And going by Jw doctrine, God did not create anything but Jesus (or arch angel michael accordong to Jw), an arch angel michael created all other things (accordin to jw). Invariably, accordin to watchtower, it was arch angel Mivhael that created angel Gabriel and all other angels. Angel Michael also created the heaven and the earth, acccordin to jw theology, since God did not create anything but the son.

I am highly disapointed dat someone, presumably informed, will be fed will lies and he wil swallow it hook, line and sinker and will even go ahead defending lies.

As i posted earlier, Jw belongs to the category of mormonism, eckanker, the grail messenger, the christian science, and some other occult group portrayin themselves as xtains.

Any organization that does not believe in the atonement of sin through the shed blood of christ, that christ is the savior of mankind from sin, that christ (not watchtower org) is the only mediator between mankind (and not 144,000 pple as taught by watchtower) and God , that all angels are commanded to worship the son (jesus, cos even men are not to worship angels, let alone angels worshipping angel). That organization is watchtower.

Anyone can continue worshiping or adoring or paying obeisance (according to new world translation) to arch angel Michael. Surely watchtower arch angel Michael is not the christian Jesus. That shows that watchtower is servin another master quite diffenrnt frm Jesus.

Hahahaha... @true2god, your comment reeks of hate and voluntary ignorance.
Ever taken time to investigate the history and beliefs of your roman catholic church?
Talk about pot calling kettle black. No kee me with laugh abeg.

Barrister
only a cultist will defend lies from his master - JW. False prophecies/predictions have been one of the hallmarks of JW, Lies and boastings, claims upon claims - no organisation read the bible more than we do, no organisation practise christianity more than we, christiendom is evil, we are the most hated, dont touch blood (while their prophets use drugs made from human blood) etc. Lies have been part of you. Shame will be urs when watchtower wakes up tomorrow and reviews its stand on some issues

true2god dont mind those who sell falsehood worldwide

true2god: All the long post by Barrister is to support the apologetic watch-tower of which they are trademarked with, changin doctrines yr after yr calin it 'light is gettin brighter' and an educated mind will buy dis fallacy. Tufiakwa! God forbid.

This 'arch angel michael' falacy was not even associated with their foundin fathers, either Russel or Rutherford (dat does not however exonorate them as master Bible twister to support their devilsh doctrines).

The book of Hebrew chapter one is enof to nullify all watchtower lies wrt this topic. Arch-angel is still an angel. To the Jw Jesus christ is an angel, pure and simple. And going by Jw doctrine, God did not create anything but Jesus (or arch angel michael accordong to Jw), an arch angel michael created all other things (accordin to jw). Invariably, accordin to watchtower, it was arch angel Mivhael that created angel Gabriel and all other angels. Angel Michael also created the heaven and the earth, acccordin to jw theology, since God did not create anything but the son.

I am highly disapointed dat someone, presumably informed, will be fed will lies and he wil swallow it hook, line and sinker and will even go ahead defending lies.

As i posted earlier, Jw belongs to the category of mormonism, eckanker, the grail messenger, the christian science, and some other occult group portrayin themselves as xtains.

Any organization that does not believe in the atonement of sin through the shed blood of christ, that christ is the savior of mankind from sin, that christ (not watchtower org) is the only mediator between mankind (and not 144,000 pple as taught by watchtower) and God , that all angels are commanded to worship the son (jesus, cos even men are not to worship angels, let alone angels worshipping angel). That organization is watchtower.

Anyone can continue worshiping or adoring or paying obeisance (according to new world translation) to arch angel Michael. Surely watchtower arch angel Michael is not the christian Jesus. That shows that watchtower is servin another master quite diffenrnt frm Jesus.

but the bible says they are all messengers, No?

Keep leaving in denial.

You are now God.

Hmmm! Trinity.

Oahray: Hahahaha... @true2god, your comment reeks of hate and voluntary ignorance.
Ever taken time to investigate the history and beliefs of your roman catholic church?
Talk about pot calling kettle black. No kee me with laugh abeg.

That is the issue, any1 dat goes against JW's lies is a catholic. Even if an atheist goes against JW lies he is a catholic.

Is it logical?

.

true2god: All the long post by Barrister is to support the apologetic watch-tower of which they are trademarked with, changin doctrines yr after yr calin it 'light is gettin brighter' and an educated mind will buy dis fallacy. Tufiakwa! God forbid.

This 'arch angel michael' falacy was not even associated with their foundin fathers, either Russel or Rutherford (dat does not however exonorate them as master Bible twister to support their devilsh doctrines).

The book of Hebrew chapter one is enof to nullify all watchtower lies wrt this topic. Arch-angel is still an angel. To the Jw Jesus christ is an angel, pure and simple. And going by Jw doctrine, God did not create anything but Jesus (or arch angel michael accordong to Jw), an arch angel michael created all other things (accordin to jw). Invariably, accordin to watchtower, it was arch angel Mivhael that created angel Gabriel and all other angels. Angel Michael also created the heaven and the earth, acccordin to jw theology, since God did not create anything but the son.

I am highly disapointed dat someone, presumably informed, will be fed will lies and he wil swallow it hook, line and sinker and will even go ahead defending lies.

As i posted earlier, Jw belongs to the category of mormonism, eckanker, the grail messenger, the christian science, and some other occult group portrayin themselves as xtains.

Any organization that does not believe in the atonement of sin through the shed blood of christ, that christ is the savior of mankind from sin, that christ (not watchtower org) is the only mediator between mankind (and not 144,000 pple as taught by watchtower) and God , that all angels are commanded to worship the son (jesus, cos even men are not to worship angels, let alone angels worshipping angel). That organization is watchtower.

Anyone can continue worshiping or adoring or paying obeisance (according to new world translation) to arch angel Michael. Surely watchtower arch angel Michael is not the christian Jesus. That shows that watchtower is servin another master quite diffenrnt frm Jesus.

but the bible says they are all messengers, No?

Keep leaving in denial.

You are now God.

Hmmm! Trinity.

truthislight: .

U dnt seem to have any response, i wonder hw u will comport ursef next time wen telling ur 'prospects' dat ur JW Jesus is angel michael. I want to believe u will do a better 'research' independent of some lies being fed frm watchtower magazines.

free123: Barrister
only a cultist will defend lies from his master - JW. False prophecies/predictions have been one of the hallmarks of JW, Lies and boastings, claims upon claims - no organisation read the bible more than we do, no organisation practise christianity more than we, christiendom is evil, we are the most hated, dont touch blood (while their prophets use drugs made from human blood) etc. Lies have been part of you. Shame will be urs when watchtower wakes up tomorrow and reviews its stand on some issues

is the bible not your strong hold in doctrinal Matters?

Why are you not holding on to it? quoting it and using it to defend your doctrine?

If you dont have the bible from Genesis to Revelation agreeing with your doctrine it means you are most likely wrong.

I had expected you and co to be quoting scriptures to proof your stand instead of all this emotional out bust.

Emotional out bust will not make christ to accept you and what is not in the bible at the last day, but he will accepted only the teaching firmly based in the bible.

So, please, try and reference you stand from the bible.

Boomark

@barristers

John was referred to as a messenger in Malachi 3:1. See also:

Matthew 11:7-10

7 As they went away, Jesus
began to speak to the crowds
concerning John: “What did you go
out ninto the wilderness to see? oA
reed shaken by the wind? 8 What
then did you go out to see? A
man 1 dressed in soft clothing?
Behold, those who wear soft
clothing are in kings' houses.
9 What then did you go out to
see? pA prophet? 2 Yes, I tell you,
and more than a prophet. 10[b] This
is he of whom it is written,
q“‘Behold, I send my messenger before
your face,
who will prepare your way before you.’[/b]

Does that make him an angel?

very good question my brother, verse 11 the next verse gave us a hint,a part answer!

Matthew 11:11
(NKJV)
11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.as a human beign with physical body, john is lower 'in nature'to the least of persons in heaven because he is in humanbody(inferior to angels)

Hebrews 1:14
'' Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation''?

all angels and spirit creatures are reffered to as 'sons of God' in the sense that they are ;all spirits,including jesus and God almighty, and that spirit form superceeds our human form.
(a) but the word 'angels'...meaning messanger/servant etc; in spirit form; 'angels'share the elementary task of beign delegated messanger/servant 'the office'

(b) human prophets, pastors etc are also worthy to be reffered to as messanger but share the office of 'messanger/servant too with angels but, 'in human form'

thats why an angel told john that ''they are fellows'' But he said unto me, 'Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you [/b]and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book.

revelation 19 :10 answers your question,0 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: [size=14pt]I am thy fellowservant,[/size] and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
looking at the greek defination of angels
G32

ἄγγελος

aggelos

ang'-el-os

From ἀγγέλλω aggellō ; a messenger ; especially an angel ;[b] by implication a pastor: [priest]- [prophet] {angel} messenger.


(primary) use of the word (ang'-el -os)angel reffers to spirit beigns, like that of the son of man, as a messenger,

but (bolded defntn above) also has an extention (secondary) to a prophet, priests or pastors.of which john fell into that category! but the angel recognises his duties and funtion and declared to john that 'im a fellow servant'.

lets say that your real name is boomark, you do exist firstly as a phisical gender,male (primarily).before beign delegated to some duties,as a messanger/servant, that does not change you to spirits. no.

Angel/messengers are assignments delegated to (1)either spirit messanger, or (2) human messanger

so john was Gods messenger in humans form,that does not make him a spirit.

free123: Barrister
only a cultist will defend lies from his master - JW. False prophecies/predictions have been one of the hallmarks of JW, Lies and boastings, claims upon claims - no organisation read the bible more than we do, no organisation practise christianity more than we, christiendom is evil, we are the most hated, dont touch blood (while their prophets use drugs made from human blood) etc. Lies have been part of you. Shame will be urs when watchtower wakes up tomorrow and reviews its stand on some issues

is the bible not your strong hold in doctrinal Matters?

Why are you not holding on to it? quoting it and using it to defend your doctrine?

If you dont have the bible from Genesis to Revelation agreeing with your doctrine it means you are most likely wrong.

I had expected you and co to be quoting scriptures to proof your stand instead of all this emotional out bust.

Emotional out bust will not make christ to accept you and what is not in the bible at the last day, but he will accepted only the teaching firmly based in the bible.

So, please, try and reference you stand from the bible.

.

.

@true2God
not even one bible quoted but whining and whining and whining Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah;

All the long post by Barrister is to support the apologetic watch-tower of which they are trademarked with, changin doctrines yr after yr calin it 'light is gettin brighter' and an educated mind will buy dis fallacy. Tufiakwa! God forbid.

This 'arch angel michael' falacy was not even associated with their foundin fathers, either Russel or Rutherford (dat does not however exonorate them as master Bible twister to support their devilsh doctrines).

The book of Hebrew chapter one is enof to nullify all watchtower lies wrt this topic. Arch-angel is still an angel. To the Jw Jesus christ is an angel, pure and simple. And going by Jw doctrine, God did not create anything but Jesus (or arch angel michael accordong to Jw), an arch angel michael created all other things (accordin to jw). Invariably, accordin to watchtower, it was arch angel Mivhael that created angel Gabriel and all other angels. Angel Michael also created the heaven and the earth, acccordin to jw theology, since God did not create anything but the son.

I am highly disapointed dat someone, presumably informed, will be fed will lies and he wil swallow it hook, line and sinker and will even go ahead defending lies.

As i posted earlier, Jw belongs to the category of mormonism, eckanker, the grail messenger, the christian science, and some other occult group portrayin themselves as xtains.

Any organization that does not believe in the atonement of sin through the shed blood of christ, that christ is the savior of mankind from sin, that christ (not watchtower org) is the only mediator between mankind (and not 144,000 pple as taught by watchtower) and God , that all angels are commanded to worship the son (jesus, cos even men are not to worship angels, let alone angels worshipping angel). That organization is watchtower.

Anyone can continue worshiping or adoring or paying obeisance (according to new world translation) to arch angel Michael. Surely watchtower arch angel Michael is not the christian Jesus. That shows that watchtower is servin another master quite diffenrnt frm Jesus.

BARRISTERS: @true2God
not even one bible quoted but whining and whining and whining Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah;

lol.

He really needs to change and makes use of scriptures.

true2god: U dnt seem to have any response, i wonder hw u will comport ursef next time wen telling ur 'prospects' dat ur JW Jesus is angel michael. I want to believe u will do a better 'research' independent of some lies being fed frm watchtower magazines.

am having issues with double post and have to delete some.

But you have to quote it, why?

I have a lot to say on this issue still, but seeing that the scriptures tendered on this thread is sufficient for the issues under consideration i get discourage due to "a no contest" but emotional screamin :"watchtower!" by you and co.

Just do more bible study.

@free123
i still repeat,where are the monies donated by relatives of dead ones to 'purgate' the soul of their dead loved ones which your fraudulent catholic priests are using to settle abuse cases,while they abandone those deads in a particular stage that they needed promotion to another stage. awon ole! why are you angry?

Barrister
only a cultist will defend lies from his master - JW. False prophecies/predictions have been one of the hallmarks of JW, Lies and boastings, claims upon claims - no organisation read the bible more than we do, no organisation practise christianity more than we, christiendom is evil, we are the most hated, dont touch blood (while their prophets use drugs made from human blood) etc. Lies have been part of you. Shame will be urs when watchtower wakes up tomorrow and reviews its stand on some issues

na wao, free123 is angry o! see am now! who wan make am cry, ok pele!

true2god: That is the issue, any1 dat goes against JW's lies is a catholic. Even if an atheist goes against JW lies he is a catholic.

Is it logical?

whichever, who is the head of christiandom?

Answer = catholic.

So, its either you are part of the mother or you are part of the daughter.

BARRISTERS: @frosbel

your post is too dry, read heb 2:7,9 where it is said that 'jesus was even made lower than the angels at some point' you are even making a case that he has always been greater than the angels but what about heb 2:7,9 above.are you going to cry?
abeg go start frosbel movement international jare! 3 jesus.

But MAN was also made a little lower than the angels , no ?

Is he then an angel by implication ?

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little[a] lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.” - Hebrews 2:7-8


Jesus Christ is not an angel or the second person of any trinity, he is who he says he is and who the apostles confirmed that he is.

Jesus never said he was once angel Michael and neither did the apostles.

Jesus never said he was the second person of a bogus trinity and neither did his apostles think he was.


Let us examine words used by both Christ and the apostles to define him, not made up theories that are at best assumptions based not on fact but wishful thinking.

JOHN 4:25-26 NKJ
25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."
26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."


JOHN 10:36 NKJ
36 "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God'?

JOHN 17:1-2 NKJ
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.


"Then he asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Peter replied, "You are the Messiah." - Mark 8:29

" We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God. " - John 6:69

"Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel." - John 1:49

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," - 1 Timothy 2:5




Jesus Christ was not , is not and will never be angel Michael , two totally and different beings.


Titles used :

1. Son of GOD
2. Son of MAN
3. Messiah
4. Christ
5. Holy One
6. MAN Jesus the mediator between God and MAN

[size=16pt]“…to which one of the angels did he ever say: ‘You are my Son’” (Heb. 1:5).[/size]

BARRISTERS: @true2God
not even one bible quoted but whining and whining and whining Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah;

Enof Bible verses hav been quoted on the earlier post. Dont turn a blind eye on them. Dnt close the holy Bible from me to read to open the watchtower magazines for me to read.

More interesting. .

.

frosbel: [size=16pt]“…to which one of the angels did he ever say: ‘You are my Son’” (Heb. 1:5).[/size]

some people have a close mind.

All angels are sons of God.

But Jesus is unique in that he is the only son that he (Yahweh) psonally form, the first born of all creation or first son.

That this first son is refered to as the leader of the angels does not take away anything from him.

That this son became a man lower than the angels does not take away anything from him.

He is the unique one amongst God's creation being the first born of all creation.

That he humbles himself and do the work of a messenger does not take away anything from him.

He is, he was Yahweh only beggoton son being the unique son personally created and uniquely created by Yahweh.

This distintive attribute is what is being alluded to at Hebrews 1:5.

This is a simple thing to understand if not that you take the unscriptural stand that christ never preexisted.
^^^
This ^^^ is your own stumbling block.

To the other trinitarians, they say that Jesus is "almighty God"
^^^

this ^^^ is the trinitarian stumbling block.

As can be seen by this two group of people, they entertain an extra biblical notion that is preventing them from accepting the obvious.

This are the reasons they all turn a blind eye to the biblical evidence provided here.

With that in view it is not a lack of evidence here, but holding on to a notion that is none biblical that is their problem.
Peace

frosbel:


But MAN was also made a little lower than the angels , no ?

Is he then an angel by implication ?

“What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
7 You made them a little[a] lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
8 and put everything under their feet.” - Hebrews 2:7-8


Jesus Christ is not an angel or the second person of any trinity, he is who he says he is and who the apostles confirmed that he is.

Jesus never said he was once angel Michael and neither did the apostles.

Jesus never said he was the second person of a bogus trinity and neither did his apostles think he was.


Let us examine words used by both Christ and the apostles to define him, not made up theories that are at best assumptions based not on fact but wishful thinking.

JOHN 4:25-26 NKJ
25 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things."
26 Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."


JOHN 10:36 NKJ
36 "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God'?

JOHN 17:1-2 NKJ
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.


"Then he asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Peter replied, "You are the Messiah." - Mark 8:29

" We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God. " - John 6:69

"Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel." - John 1:49

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," - 1 Timothy 2:5




Jesus Christ was not , is not and will never be angel Michael , two totally and different beings.


Titles used :

1. Son of GOD
2. Son of MAN
3. Messiah
4. Christ
5. Holy One
6. MAN Jesus the mediator between God and MAN

this is exactly what i said you will do some post back, that you will leave answering the question i had asked you and and later start pesting unrelated scriptures.

Which of this scriptures refutes the fact that Jesus is the leader of the angels?

You said that Jesus is not an angel and that Jesus never preexisted.

You also said that Jesus also receives worshipful honor but no angel receives worshipful honor.

Then i ask you, who was the captain that joshua worship in OT and he accepted the worship since christ never preexist and angels dont receives worship and no man has ever seen Yahweh?

If you cannot answer that ^^^ question then you make yourself a nuisance on this thread and as such i advice that you leave the thread for the sake of your own dignity.
Peace

Mr Barrister
i dont know why u see me as a catholic
for the records, i am not a catholic and i do not believe in purgatory or praying for the dead. i do not worship under any denomination whatsoever as that is division in the body of Christ - which i know JW actively participate in.

be that as it may, i recognize any part of the bible that any organization gets rights. just as in the case of tithes that JW got right but other falsehood from JW, i stay clear off.

Reference this when u talk to me about ur lies.

pls, archs are nothing but special ministers of God. like you have minister of defence, minister of information, etc. there are seven archs. micheal is an arch, so is rapheal, gabriel, uriel and three others i can remember now. if not for the book of tobit, we wouldnt even have known about rapheal. it probably is those seven archs that are called the seven spirits of God. Jesus christ is God. the physical embodiment of God. now to my own understanding, since we are made in the image and likeness of God, i say the form is non other than the body, soul and spirit. while jesus is the body, the holy spirit is the spirit whhile the father is the soul.

one more thing, lucifer was an arch. he was the bringer of light, probably "energy minister" of cos , Jesus fired him just like obasanjo fired a lot of energy ministers.

^^^it was angel michael that fired him out of heaven. Now i wonder the timeline Jesus was talking about when he said he saw satan fall like lightening. . .

Luke 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Was he talking of present, past or future (in revelations).

pastormustwacc: ^^^it was angel michael that fired him out of heaven. Now i wonder the timeline Jesus was talking about when he said he saw satan fall like lightening. . .

Luke 10:18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Was he talking of present, past or future (in revelations).

yeah, under the orders of Jesus. energy minister wanted to be president and got fired. micheal merely enforced his sack order.