Genesis 32:21-32. "So went the present over before him: and himself lodged that night in the company. 22 And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, and his eleven sons, and passed over the ford Jabbok. 23 And he took them, and sent them over the brook, and sent over that he had. 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh. 32 Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank."


Can someone explain this Story to Me?

I thought no one could see God Face and Live but yet Jacob wrestle with Him.

@SeanT21:

25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.

This is a God that can not prevail against jacob, a mere human? Romantic story witha terrible message.

26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Even God confess that Jacob prevailed over Him in addition to prevailing over man? Some terrible storylines.

29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh. 32 Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank."

Sister, I understand your plight. Terribel story! Reducing God to weakling. I think those who among the Christian who are easy to say that God had to come like a man, jesus, how do they explain this condition with Jacob? Afterall, that was not Jesus, or was it Jesus? I hope somebody will take the bait here. David or other, is anyone eager to explain?

Can someone explain this Story to Me?

I thought no one could see God Face and Live but yet Jacob wrestle with Him.

There is no good explanation, babe. Its smelly all the way. I thought no one could see Biblical God face to face too, and yet live. But apparently, without the god turning up as Jesus, Jacob fought Him and even prevailed over Him. How can we now say that Jesus is the softer side of God that can be seen, when saw Him, without Him changing to Jesus? But of course I remember davidylan was telling me that Melchizedek was another ones of the gods, too.

Woman, run from these type of confused ways. Come over to Islam.

Me, NO ISLAM!!

I am pure Christian.

but again, GOOD QUESTIONS!!

SeanT21:

Me, NO ISLAM!!

I am pure christain.

but again, GOOD QUESTIONS!!

I dnt have an answer for yhu bhut m sure if man cant answer yhu here
yhu could ask the holy spirit to put yhu tru.

olabowale:

@SeanT21:
This is a God that can not prevail against jacob, a mere human? Romantic story witha terrible message.




Even God confess that Jacob prevailed over Him in addition to prevailing over man? Some terrible storylines.




Sister, I understand your plight. Terribel story! Reducing God to weakling. I think those who among the Christian who are easy to say that God had to come like a man, jesus, how do they explain this condition with Jacob? Afterall, that was not Jesus, or was it Jesus? I hope somebody will take the bait here. David or other, is anyone eager to explain?



There is no good explanation, babe. Its smelly all the way. I thought no one could see Biblical God face to face too, and yet live. But apparently, without the god turning up as Jesus, Jacob fought Him and even prevailed over Him. How can we now say that Jesus is the softer side of God that can be seen, when saw Him, without Him changing to Jesus? But of course I remember davidylan was telling me that Melchizedek was another ones of the gods, too.

Woman, run from these type of confused ways. Come over to Islam.

Now I am sure there is an Islamic forum where you can comfortably type out your IGNORANCE blissfully and your fellow moderator and Islamic bigots can Allahu Ark[b]ban[/b] you for your esteemed knowledge.

I seriously hate deceit and it such drivel like that of yours here that drives me off at times from posting frequently on the religion section. You and your fellow Islamic brothers and sisters have solely decided to turn the religion section to your Islamic praying ground.

If you want to denigrate Christianity, go your Islamic section and do it there. The same God of Abraham, God of Isaac and God of [b]Jacob [/b]which you muslims have falsely incorporated into your qu'ran is the same God you are proclaiming HE cannot prevail over a mere mortal.

BTW, do not think I will be drawn into arguing aimlessly with you. I have read most of your posting, and seriously you do not strike me as someone with a mindset of a serious discussant. Probably your fellow anti-Islamic religion can engage you, I have long arisen from that mud.

@Pataki: Omo nla, i wo lo nso isoku so bayi? What did i say that is off the cuffs? Did Jacob wrestled with god and prevailed with (over) God and man? How can God not just defeat him easy that he had to dislocate his bone and sock joint of the thigh in order to escape? Doesn't that raise even the issue of god being on earth before Jesus was born? Considering that davidylan quoted that Melchizedek was the god of Abraham. Ki lo nso, iwo ogbe ni yi?

@SeanT21,

If you had taken time to meditate on my response to your earlier topic about Psalm 110, you will find it so easy to understand the personality that Jacob wrestled with. Here again is my response and try to apply the principle threre to this situation.


There are two Personalities which we see here - "The Lord" and "My Lord". The first refers to Almighty God in His Majesty and exceeding glory. This is the essence of God that Jesus declares in the NT that no man has seen. "My Lord" on the other hand refers to God who is relatable to and approachable to man. He represents God personalised through experience. This is the one the scriptures refer to as the WORD who manifested in the flesh in the fullness of His relationship to man.

This is why I can't figure out why some people say Jesus was never revealed or manifested in the flesh in the OT (saying all we saw was just the Holy Spirit). Anytime God manifests in the flesh in the OT, the people who experienced it are able to personalise that revelation of God which is why we get names like Jehoveh Nissi, Jehoveah Rapha, Jehovah Tsikednu, Jehovah Jireh etc. This is "The Lord" becoming "My Lord" to these folks.

In the NT however, we don't just declare Jehovah is this and that to us. When we declare "Jesus", it represents the fullness of God's manifestation in the flesh. He becomes everything personal of "God" to us, He becomes - "My Lord".

Can you relate this to the passage that narrates Jacob's encounter with God? Do you see how God is personalised only through revelation? Do you see how Jacob wanted to know His name which is nothing more than His manifestation? He met God and God became personal to him. Our revelation of God cannot go beyond of our revelations of Him.

Tayo-D:

@SeanT21,

If you had taken time to meditate on my response to your earlier topic about Psalm 110, you will find it so easy to understand the personality that Jacob wrestled with. Here again is my response and try to apply the principle threre to this situation.


There are two Personalities which we see here - "The Lord" and "My Lord". The first refers to Almighty God in His Majesty and exceeding glory. This is the essence of God that Jesus declares in the NT that no man has seen. "My Lord" on the other hand refers to God who is relatable to and approachable to man. He represents God personalised through experience. This is the one the scriptures refer to as the WORD who manifested in the flesh in the fullness of His relationship to man.

This is why I can't figure out why some people say Jesus was never revealed or manifested in the flesh in the OT (saying all we saw was just the Holy Spirit). Anytime God manifests in the flesh in the OT, the people who experienced it are able to personalise that revelation of God which is why we get names like Jehoveh Nissi, Jehoveah Rapha, Jehovah Tsikednu, Jehovah Jireh etc. This is "The Lord" becoming "My Lord" to these folks.

In the NT however, we don't just declare Jehovah is this and that to us. When we declare "Jesus", it represents the fullness of God's manifestation in the flesh. He becomes everything personal of "God" to us, He becomes - "My Lord".

Can you relate this to the passage that narrates Jacob's encounter with God? Do you see how God is personalised only through revelation? Do you see how Jacob wanted to know His name which is nothing more than His manifestation? He met God and God became personal to him. Our revelation of God cannot go beyond of our revelations of Him.

So You are saying That Jacob Did wrestle with God? am i confuse?

I dont know about any complicated explanations but it's very clear that Jacob wrestled with a human representation of God. God is Spirit (John 4:24) and so it would have been impossible for God as a Spirit to wrestle physically with a man.

It is however possible for any human being to with any any other human manifestaion in a wrestling match.

@SeanT21,

So You are saying That Jacob Did wrestle with God? am i confuse?

The passage is very clear. Jacob wrestled with God in His manifestation as a man. Why is it hard to believe that God could manifest in the flesh as a man then when you believe He did as Jesus Christ? But you are getting hung on the wrong thing in that passage. That Jacob wrestled with God does not mean he is more powerful than God as some confused guy here is trying to confuse you about. If anything, it is mentioned that by just a touch from God, Jacob's leg was out of joint. Wasn't Jacob thankful that his life was spared despite his encounter?

What your focus should really be is the revelation that Jacob had from that encounter and it is this: Jehovah Peniel - the God that I can see face to face. The implication of that is profound!

olabowale:

@Pataki: Omo nla, i wo lo nso isoku so bayi? What did i say that is off the cuffs? Did Jacob wrestled with god and prevailed with (over) God and man? How can God not just defeat him easy that he had to dislocate his bone and sock joint of the thigh in order to escape? Doesn't that raise even the issue of god being on earth before Jesus was born? Considering that davidylan quoted that Melchizedek was the god of Abraham. Ki lo nso, iwo ogbe ni yi?

SHUT UP

Pataki:

Now I am sure there is an Islamic forum where you can comfortably type out your IGNORANCE blissfully and your fellow moderator and Islamic bigots can Allahu Ark[b]ban[/b] you for your esteemed knowledge.

I seriously hate deceit and it such drivel like that of yours here that drives me off at times from posting frequently on the religion section. You and your fellow Islamic brothers and sisters have solely decided to turn the religion section to your Islamic praying ground.

If you want to denigrate Christianity, go your Islamic section and do it there. The same God of Abraham, God of Isaac and God of Jacob [/b]which you muslims have [b]falsely incorporated into your qu'ran is the same God you are proclaiming HE cannot prevail over a mere mortal.

BTW, do not think I will be drawn into arguing aimlessly with you. I have read most of your posting, and seriously you do not strike me as someone with a mindset of a serious discussant. Probably your fellow anti-Islamic religion can engage you, I have long arisen from that mud.

This is amazing!!! Indeed this is a shock!

OK, I understand The point. Thanks for clarifying.

@Pataki and davidylan:

Pataki on July 29, 2008, 09:32 AM
Now I am sure there is an Islamic forum where you can comfortably type out your IGNORANCE blissfully and your fellow moderator and Islamic bigots can Allahu Arkban you for your esteemed knowledge.

I seriously hate deceit and it such drivel like that of yours here that drives me off at times from posting frequently on the religion section. You and your fellow Islamic brothers and sisters have solely decided to turn the religion section to your Islamic praying ground.

If you want to denigrate Christianity, go your Islamic section and do it there. The same God of Abraham, God of Isaac and God of Jacob which you muslims have[b] falsely incorporated [/b] into your qu'ran is the same God you are proclaiming HE cannot prevail over a mere mortal.

Wake up and smell the roses, since i don't know if you are folgercoffee drinker. Aren't you ashamed to read in a book that you say its completely the words of God, when a foolish idea of a mere mortal prevailing over God takes a center stage?

Should you not walk away from such a book because it clearly betrays itself that it is not a book to be considered words of Almighty God?

Now as to your uneducated statement that we in Islam falsely incorporated into our Qur'an the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc; are you not aware that God is not only God and Lord, but Creator and Cherisher, etc as well?

Now tell me who is the Creator of all, including the Jews and gentiles, Christians and nonchristians? If you do not have any other creator than Him, alone, therefore, know that God is no less the God of all.


The only difference, in reverse is that these noble men that you mentioned above are higher than me and you because they are elects of God, therefore they are more God conscious as individual.

Did you know that Ibrahim was from Iraq? Go figure.

BTW, do not think I will be drawn into arguing aimlessly with you. I have read most of your posting, and seriously you do not strike me as someone with a mindset of a serious discussant. Probably your fellow anti-Islamic religion can engage you, I have long arisen from that mud.

I am not sure what you mean by long risen from mud? But if it is that you have enlightment, good for you. But you still need to know that God is Singular, and not gods, like 3!

That is when you begin to seriously arisen from the mud. Don't be delutional in your thoughts. As long as you cling to all these idea of splicing God into 3 or even 2, but remaining wholly 1, you are still in the mud! Bawo ni, ojare? Aa ki nri aja ka ma re!



@Davidylan:

This is amazing!!! Indeed this is a shock!

Don't forget that Muslim's God is not God that is wrestling, becoming multiple god(s), or son god, or father god, or holy spirit god. Islamic God is One without a beginning or an end, nor parents and or progeny.


So you should not be shocked that I defended the Islamic God Almighty Creator, and you will remember that Christain gods are not the same as the Muslim God!

That was excellent@TayoD. The encounter between Jacob and God is numerous proofs of the manifestation of Jesus Christ prior to his physical incarnation. And the way you just wrote "If anything, it is mentioned that by just a touch from God, Jacob's leg was out of joint. Wasn't Jacob thankful that his life was spared despite his encounter?" shows the respect and power you have ascribed to God. May God bless your soul in the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen!

@Ndipe: You are insincere, man. Read the Genesis verse and see if any of these is a character of All Powerful, All knowing, All capable Creator of all things!

quote; 25 And when[b] he saw that he prevailed not against him[/b], he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. unquote

The encounter between Jacob and God is numerous proofs of the manifestation of Jesus Christ prior to his physical incarnation.

How many times did Jesus manifest himself on earth, including him as King of Salem and then as a member of the party that visted Abraham to announce the birth of Isaac prior the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc?

You have any more occasion of manifestations? This is the behavior of God who is declared that no eyes can see Him and live? And then the reincarnation happened? A good story fantastically told.

Oh boy, stop it.

olabowale:

@Ndipe: You are insincere, man. Read the Genesis verse and see if any of these is a character of All Powerful, All knowing, All capable Creator of all things!

quote; 25 And when[b] he saw that he prevailed not against him[/b], he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. unquote

How many times did Jesus manifest himself on earth, including him as King of Salem and then as a member of the party that visted Abraham to announce the birth of Isaac prior the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc?

You have any more occasion of manifestations? This is the behavior of God who is declared that no eyes can see Him and live? And then the reincarnation happened? A good story fantastically told.

Oh boy, stop it.

QUIT!! This is the christian forum.

I have never had doubt about the facts of scripture.definitely one as obvious as the fact that the man Jacob wrestled with God. However the scripture explains itself (u remember that no scripture is of any private intepretation and therefore shouldnt be treated in isolation if it is to form part of our doctrine) in Hosea 12:2-5 where we see that the man wept and made suplication unto God. He wrestled with God in prayer and supplication and prevailed.
In the above scripture, He is refered to as the angel. But that was the same angel that appeared to Jacob before Jericoh saying, I am captain of the Lord's Host. That same angel (the Lord) paid his grandfather Abraham a visit in the company of others. He came in the form of a man. There have been several of such vivitations in scriture and the bible tells us to expect such even in the new testament.
He appeared unto Moses in the burning bush and unto Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the midst of the fire (the one whom the king likened unto the son of God).

@SeanT21:

QUIT!! This is the christian forum.

My darling, how can I quit, when i see you in great confusion. You need guidance.

Consder me as a father, a guide. I just want you to think and not just remain in a religion because its all that you know. Open your eyes, woman.



@donnie:

I have never had doubt about the facts of scripture.definitely one as obvious as thje facty that the man Jacob wrestled with God. However the scripture explains itself (u renmember that no scripture is of any private intepretation and therefore shouldnt be treated in isolation if it is to form part of our doctrine) in ,
The man wept and made suplication unto God. He wrestled with God in prayer and supplication and prevailed. In tha above scripture, He is refered to as the angel. But that was the[b] same angel that appeared to Jacob before Jericoh saying, I am captain of the Lord's Host[/b]. That same angel (the Lord) paid his grandfather Abraham a visit in the company of others. He came in the form of a man.

Donnie, read your own piece; the Angel is God? This is truly a terrible mindset. On one hand you said that Jacob was in a dream, supplicating as he wept. Then he fought an angel or God?

Which one? It just can not be the same two entities, because God can not be an Angel, and Angel can not be God. One is the Creator (God), and the other is a creation (Angel)!


Surprisingly, your christian people believe that the fight was physical and real, prior to the time of daybreak, dawn. Its not like what one dreamt about.

If you then combine this opponent of Jacob to be God/Angel, then he prevailed over the two of them in the Jewish and the christian context. That will be a weak God/Angel, wouldn't it? Thats not how God shows His all powerfulness.

Thats not how God sends His angel to His elects, prophets.


The Angel never have appeared in a weak and dejected state. They represent God, hence they are full of vigor, power and knowledge that they are empowered with in order that their contact with the human who receive the message may be impressionable, remembered.

Even in your statement above the Angel says that he is the captain of the hosts of the Lord, because they are going to destroy a place and its inhabitants.


However if your god and his angel combined can be beat up as the human being prevail over them, good for you. in Islam it is quite opposite. God is complete.

His Angels are sent on mission with adequate and full power to deal victoriously in the situation.

There have been several of such vivitations in scriture and the bible tells us to expect such even in the new testament.
He appeared unto Moses in the burning bush and unto Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the midst of the fire (the one whom the king likened unto the son of God).

And you coyly did not give us a single example from the New testament!

By the way how would any people in the Old Testament what a son of God was since they never saw one, until the concorted fabled tale we find in the New Testament?

This sound like the imaginary statements in the New testament which are now passing for truth: trinity, son of god, god the father, god the holy spirit, god coming into mary and overshadowing her, death on the cross and badly calculated three days and three nights in the tomb, are just some of the examples.

olabowale ,do us a favour and go spew all dis nonsense u r spewing here elsewhere,cos we all dont take u serious judging from d fact that ur posts r full of shit

Are you so bored with your own part of the forum olabowale that you have to come here?