Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by mentorandfriend(m): 1:07am On Feb 12, 2015 |
VolvoS60:
^^^^ Very poor response. This thread has been remarkably focused on the issues that matter, and the posters here clearly have a technical background and some experience in the power sector. The posts here have been long on detail, which is what Nigerians require. No unnecessary, empty rhetoric. More threads should be like this.
Osinbajo is only a man. His being a lawyer and a SAN have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the key issues being discussed here. If his plan for the power sector has holes, are you saying these holes shouldn't be pointed out? ![undecided](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/undecided.png) I'm a medical doctor. I cant claim to know all, but judging the astuteness of a lawyer by his knowledge and dynamics of the workings of national energy generation and power is quite misplaced, just like you cant judge my intelligence by my knowledge of the banking system; but I can say some things or more because I read journals and financial publications. When I do say the little I know, dont turn it into a big campaign of inadequacy thingy. By the way, Osinbajo will not head the power sector, will he? Please. 3 Likes |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by VolvoS60(m): 1:20am On Feb 12, 2015 |
mentorandfriend: I'm a medical doctor. I cant claim to know all, but judging the astuteness of a lawyer by his knowledge and dynamics of the workings of national energy generation and power is quite misplaced, just like you cant judge my intelligence by my knowledge of the banking system; but I can say some things or more because I read journals and financial publications. When I do say the little I know, dont turn it into a big campaign of inadequacy thingy. By the way, Osinbajo will not head the power sector, will he? Please. ^^^ You are right that no one can claim to know all. But justifying ignorance in leadership isn't acceptable. It is fair and just that the APC frontrunners should answer in detail how they intend to fix Nigeria's power problems. To suggest that Mr. Osinbajo should not be grilled on power (because he is a lawyer! ![undecided](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/undecided.png) ) is just strange. Power is a big ticket issue that has been on the front burner for millions of Nigerians for decades. Nigerians have the right to ask those who wish to lead them hard questions. And those questions should be answered in detail. Nigerians deserve nothing less. It is noteworthy that the OP's own errors and misinformation are also being brought to light on this thread. And that's the way it should be. Nigerians deserve a thorough examination of the key issues. Nothing less. 9 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by tswitch: 2:45am On Feb 12, 2015 |
Ovamboland:
Op your analysis is wrong there is something called CNG (compressed natural gas) supplied by trucks from Sango-otta,Ogun state to factories in Ibadan and to Lagos IPPs in Akute
Such plants are quick to deliver once the basic dsign is done it can be adapted with detailing to different locations and constructed and commissioned in 1 year maximum, imagine towns like Ikire, Umudike, Kotangora, Aramoko, having 10MW plants each with 320Bn naira only, 100 small towns will have constant power so farmers, artisans, and produce processing be started without waiting for laying expensive and time consuming pipelines and high tension cables a step down transformers.
The professors idea is actually a brillant quick fix to provide power quickly country wide while waiting for the natural gas pipeline reaches the towns and then you can such town off truck supply and shorten the CNG transport distance by compressing gas at the nearest reach of the pipeline. This can continue until the national grid pipeline network reaches at least the towns and cities and the cost of compression and trucking will stop. This will be far cheaper than petrol and diesel generator we currently depend on.
I should know because i prepared a technical bid for the design and construction one of the Lagos IPPs.
As regards the cost, a small plant will cost a bit more than a larger plant simply because of economy of scale, simple economics, but in the context of the decentralized plan, you will make up from savings on transmission cost over long distances, heavy duty switches, circuit breakers and transformers. And minister of power just this week announced that he needs $2Billion to generate 1 MW!!!
Always do your research very well before you riducle yourself in a public forum I am surprised you claim to be an engineer and have the term "quick fix" in your post. Every Engineering student/graduate or practising Engineers knows- DESIGN AND BUILD TO LAST! Quick points: 1. NG can only be transported by CNG "truck" to small and medium scale industry users. 2. The only viable option to transport large MMSCFD of NG required to sustainably run any electric power generating gas turbine remains a network of pipelines for obvious reasons like cost,reduce human error, automation,reliability,feasibility,viability etc. Due to the large volume the gas is liquefied as LNG, note not CNG. 3. As we use to say in design- nothing is new,we only model according to specifications. On you doing the design for an IPP, which stage of the design where you involved in? Conceptual? FEED? The whole universe knows design is team work and many disciplines are involves.So tell us your discipline so we can better understand reasons for your obvious lack of knowledge. 4. I still follow energy news and can categorically say you are lying on the Prof. for reasons best known to you,anyway don't forget he is also a priest........ 5. How does an 8.8MW IPP eg Lagos Mainland(with only about 5MW generated by the gas turbine and the other MW generates by a diesel generator) feature in the grand scheme of power generation? Even a retard will be raise an eyebrow to the amount of billions sunk into an obviousky flawed plant. Why LSG did not save tax payers money and model power generation plans of heavy industries like Nestle, Cadbury since they generate almost same amount of electricity beats all imagination. For the Inquisitive audience no FGN owned IPP has a capacity less than 120MW (some constructed by Siemens equipment by GE and none run with diesel generator like the Lagos State runned IPP -Ikeja) Another obvious fact is if you scale the cost of any Lagos State owned IPP to any of the FGN owned IPP you get almost twice the cost of the FGN own. Simply meaning the cost of a LSG owned 112.5MW may as well build and maintain an FGN owned 200MW plant. Google for verification. One advise to the Professor of law - face law and legal matters only since an obvious nitwit is your power sector consultant. 16 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by GiantParrot(m): 9:46am On Feb 12, 2015 |
Ovamboland: [/quote] I see you edited your post. Interesting points. But they further expose you.
[quote author=Ovamboland post=30648082] The professors idea is actually a brillant quick fix to provide power quickly country wide while waiting for the natural gas pipeline reaches the towns and then you can such town off truck supply and shorten the CNG transport distance by compressing gas at the nearest reach of the pipeline. This can continue until the national grid pipeline network reaches at least the towns and cities and the cost of compression and trucking will stop. This will be far cheaper than petrol and diesel generator we currently depend on.
I'll not bother with this until you provide answers to the questions by J12 on it. Ovamboland:
As regards the cost, a small plant will cost a bit more than a larger plant simply because of economy of scale, simple economics,
It is true that the unit cost of a small plant will be A BIT more than that of a large plant as a result of economies of scale. Your power plant costs N320b to install 10MW generating capacity = N32Billion per MW The Omotosho phase 1 thermal power plant cost $166,724,578 to install 335MW generating capacity = N99.54Million per MW (using $1 = 200). http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/03/fg-sells-omotosho-power-plant-to-chinese-investors/That your "solution" is 32,148% more expensive is definitely not the "a bit more" costs incurred as a result of economies of scale. Your approach simply does not make economic sense. I'm assuming that this your meagre 10MW project was not an avenue for the LASG to misappropriate funds, but that the approach is just too expensive as a result of practical limitations. Ovamboland:
And minister of power just this week announced that he needs $2Billion to generate 1 MW!!!
I have just shown you a real plant that cost N99.54M/MW to install. Disprove that if you can ![cheesy](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/cheesy.png) . By the way, you're misquoting the minister. He talked about cost of PROVIDING electricity and NOT cost GENERATING electricity. In your case, the capital cost of installation per MW is 32 billion naira. The cost of providing electricity per MW is not limited to the capital cost of installation per MW. It includes the the capital cost of installation, cost of feed gas, the cost of operations and maintenance, the capital cost of expanding the transmission capacity from 4500MW to 160,000MW, and the cost of expanding distribution capacity. Even at that, I believe the Minister was quoting inaccurate data when he said the cost of providing electricity is $2b per MW. Ovamboland:
Always do your research very well before you riducle yourself in a public forum
Funny that you really need to start taking your own advice. 8 Likes |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by ogb5(m): 10:13am On Feb 12, 2015 |
Ovamboland:
Op your analysis is wrong there is something called CNG (compressed natural gas) supplied by trucks from Sango-otta,Ogun state to factories in Ibadan and to Lagos IPPs in Akute
Such plants are quick to deliver once the basic dsign is done it can be adapted with detailing to different locations and constructed and commissioned in 1 year maximum, imagine towns like Ikire, Umudike, Kotangora, Aramoko, having 10MW plants each with 320Bn naira only, 100 small towns will have constant power so farmers, artisans, and produce processing be started without waiting for laying expensive and time consuming pipelines and high tension cables a step down transformers.
The professors idea is actually a brillant quick fix to provide power quickly country wide while waiting for the natural gas pipeline reaches the towns and then you can such town off truck supply and shorten the CNG transport distance by compressing gas at the nearest reach of the pipeline. This can continue until the national grid pipeline network reaches at least the towns and cities and the cost of compression and trucking will stop. This will be far cheaper than petrol and diesel generator we currently depend on.
I should know because i prepared a technical bid for the design and construction one of the Lagos IPPs.
As regards the cost, a small plant will cost a bit more than a larger plant simply because of economy of scale, simple economics, but in the context of the decentralized plan, you will make up from savings on transmission cost over long distances, heavy duty switches, circuit breakers and transformers. And minister of power just this week announced that he needs $2Billion to generate 1 MW!!!
Always do your research very well before you riducle yourself in a public forum It will be very foolish for anyone to supply a 10MW power plant with CNG using trucks. 10MW plant will supply only 3333 household with power at the Global average power rate of 3KW per household. If you have an average of 6 people per household that will mean your wonderful plant will only supply only 20,000 people. There is no town in Nigeria with only 20,000 people. You have not looked into the power required by businesses in these communities where you intend to put the plan. so for a small town with 200,000 people, you will need 10 of such power plants, with pressurised gas trucks running grids all over the city. Not workable! And how do you intend to supply compressed Natural gas with trucks to power plants in Adamawa or Bornu or Sokoto, you want to truck gas from Warri or Portharcourt daily to those places? Also to transport Compressed Natural gas with trucks, you need trucks fitted with high pressure vessels to act as container for the compressed gas. One thing with high pressure vessels is that they are very heavy. You will simply find yourself in a situation where a 50 ton truck only delivers 5 ton of gas due to the heavy container required for the gas. It is not workable, engineering has nmoved far beyond that phase, we now have pipelines for transporting compressed natural gas cheaply and efficiently. Mr man. You can build a compressed natural gas plant for a small factory in Ibadan which does not have much alternative choice on power generation, but Nigeria has choices, we have gas pipelines that delivers gas from the Niger delta all the way to Abuja and to Ghana 11 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by Nobody: 11:26am On Feb 12, 2015 |
tswitch:
I am surprised you claim to be an engineer and have the term "quick fix" in your post. Every Engineering student/graduate or practising Engineers knows- DESIGN AND BUILD TO LAST! Quick points: 1. NG can only be transported by CNG "truck" to small and medium scale users.
2. The only viable option to transport large MMSCFD of NG remains a network of pipeline for obvious reasons like cost,reduce human error, automation,reliability,feasibility,viability etc. Due to the large volume the gas is liquefied as LNG, note not CNG.
3. As we use to say in design- nothing is new,we only model according to specifications. On you doing the design for an IPP, which stage of the design where you involved in? Conceptual? FEED? The whole universe knows design is team work and many disciplines are involves.So tell us your discipline so we can better understand reasons for your obvious lack of knowledge.
4. I still follow energy news and can categorically say you are lying on the Prof. for reasons best known to you,anyway don't forget he is also a priest........
5. How does an 8.8MW IPP eg Lagos Mainland(with only about 5MW generated by the gas turbine and the other MW generates by a diesel generator) feature in the grand scheme of power generation? Even a retard will be raise an eyebrow to the amount of billions sunk into an obviousky flawed plant. Why LSG did not save tax payers money and model power generation plans of heavy industries like Nestle, Cadbury since they generate almost same amount of electricity beats all imagination.
For the Inquisitive audience no FGN owned IPP has a capacity less than 120MW (some constructed by Siemens equipment by GE and none run with diesel generator like the Lagos State runned IPP -Ikeja) Another obvious fact is if you scale the cost of any Lagos State owned IPP to any of the FGN owned IPP you get almost twice the cost of the FGN own. Simply meaning the cost of a LSG owned 112.5MW may as well build and maintain an FGN owned 200MW plant. Google for verification.
I advise to the Professor of law - face law and legal matters only since an obvious nitwit is your power sector consultant.
Exactly my point. The APC's plan for steady power supply in Nigeria is too unrealistic and hinged on ignorance 9 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by bgates: 12:08pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
award need to be given to this thread
I have gain knowledge here..
front page please
moderator 1 Like |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by BodyKiss(m): 12:46pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
kay1one2: The man will supply gas to power stations using trucks! See ode! How is gas supplied in filling station? You're the ode here. |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by kay1one2(m): 12:53pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
BodyKiss:
How is gas supplied in filling station? You're the ode here. By gas I suppose you mean the gas not liquid? 1 Like |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by jdilight(m): 12:56pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
ogb5: Voting in knowledgeable people is one of the beauty of democracy. This has been well developed by the advanced democracies in the west. To ensure that the nation elects the right people with the right skills, experience and qualifications, politicians are normally grilled on a range of subjects to gauge their understanding of the issues affecting their countries or constituency as the case may be.
In this vein looking at the power policy thrust of the APC as being put forward by no other person than their vice presidential candidate bring to fore some gross deficiency in the policy of the APC on power and shows that professor Osinbajo does not know what power generation entails.
The APC vice has consistently said that their government will improve power supply, the question is how will they do that. The answer to the question of 'how' was answered by Osinbajo on Tuesday in Ondo during a town hall session. This is what he had to say.
1. They will decentralise power generation. 2. The decentralised power plants will have gas supplied to them by trucks instead of pipelines 3. They will copy the model of power plants already established in Lagos state.
herein lies the ignorance of the professor, also hidden in the rhetoric of the professor is the avenue for looting the treasury. 1. Power generation has been decentralised. Anyone, be it federal government, state government, local government or private companies can now set up power generation plant and sell such produced power as they deem fit. So Osinbajo should tell us something different.
2. Technically you can not supply a power plant like the one in Lagos with gas using trucks. This simply mean the professor and those formulating his policy on power generation knows nothing about power generation. The Lagos plant uses natural gas, that is another theme for methane gas. Industrially methane has 2 means of being transported, by pipelines when the point of use is less than 5,000 km and as liquefied natural gas by ships followed by re gasification when the point of use is more than 5, 000 km from the point of production. The gas supplied by trucks is liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) used for domestic cooking. No country in the world bases her power generation on LPG. Moreover Nigeria does not have the facility to produce adequate LPG to cater for domestic cooking, so using LPG for power generation is out of the question. So Osinbajo promising to supply gas to power plants with trucks is simply talking about something that is not possible.
3. Osinbajo promised to model his modular power plants after the Lagos power plant. Simply put, the Lagos power plant is among the most expensive gas fired power plant in the world. The Ikeja modular power plant has an installed capacity of 10 megawatts and was built at a cost of 3.2 billion Naira. That was equivalent to about 2 billion usd per gigawatt of electricity. Globally the benchmark cost for gas fired power plants is 1 billion usd per gigawatt of electricity, the Ikeja plant cost twice the global benchmark for such plants. By planning to go with the Lagos model, Osinbajo is telling us the will deliver power at twice the global benchmark cost, and at a cost far higher than the current government is delivering power projects. Several gas fired power plants delivered by the current government in the last 4 yrs were delivered at less than 1 . 3 billion usd per gigawatt.
So Osinbajo has no clue about power generation, he is simply spooling out impossible promises to confuse the electorates. Worse part is that he is a pastor that is supposed to stand by the truth, how will he face God at the end of the day after telling blatant lies on the campaign trail.
http://www.punchng.com/news/apc-will-slash-tariffs-on-imported-cars-osinbajo/
This is the best you can expect from a Nigerian prof. Nigerian profs. are theoretical professors, they create no practical model to test their theoretical ideology. They believe once it is theoretically proved it must be practically too. 1 Like |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by Frankiss44(m): 1:08pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
1 Like |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by benson81(m): 1:51pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
ogb5: Voting in knowledgeable people is one of the beauty of democracy. This has been well developed by the advanced democracies in the west. To ensure that the nation elects the right people with the right skills, experience and qualifications, politicians are normally grilled on a range of subjects to gauge their understanding of the issues affecting their countries or constituency as the case may be.
In this vein looking at the power policy thrust of the APC as being put forward by no other person than their vice presidential candidate bring to fore some gross deficiency in the policy of the APC on power and shows that professor Osinbajo does not know what power generation entails.
The APC vice has consistently said that their government will improve power supply, the question is how will they do that. The answer to the question of 'how' was answered by Osinbajo on Tuesday in Ondo during a town hall session. This is what he had to say.
1. They will decentralise power generation. 2. The decentralised power plants will have gas supplied to them by trucks instead of pipelines 3. They will copy the model of power plants already established in Lagos state.
herein lies the ignorance of the professor, also hidden in the rhetoric of the professor is the avenue for looting the treasury. 1. Power generation has been decentralised. Anyone, be it federal government, state government, local government or private companies can now set up power generation plant and sell such produced power as they deem fit. So Osinbajo should tell us something different.
2. Technically you can not supply a power plant like the one in Lagos with gas using trucks. This simply mean the professor and those formulating his policy on power generation knows nothing about power generation. The Lagos plant uses natural gas, that is another theme for methane gas. Industrially methane has 2 means of being transported, by pipelines when the point of use is less than 5,000 km and as liquefied natural gas by ships followed by re gasification when the point of use is more than 5, 000 km from the point of production. The gas supplied by trucks is liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) used for domestic cooking. No country in the world bases her power generation on LPG. Moreover Nigeria does not have the facility to produce adequate LPG to cater for domestic cooking, so using LPG for power generation is out of the question. So Osinbajo promising to supply gas to power plants with trucks is simply talking about something that is not possible.
3. Osinbajo promised to model his modular power plants after the Lagos power plant. Simply put, the Lagos power plant is among the most expensive gas fired power plant in the world. The Ikeja modular power plant has an installed capacity of 10 megawatts and was built at a cost of 3.2 billion Naira. That was equivalent to about 2 billion usd per gigawatt of electricity. Globally the benchmark cost for gas fired power plants is 1 billion usd per gigawatt of electricity, the Ikeja plant cost twice the global benchmark for such plants. By planning to go with the Lagos model, Osinbajo is telling us the will deliver power at twice the global benchmark cost, and at a cost far higher than the current government is delivering power projects. Several gas fired power plants delivered by the current government in the last 4 yrs were delivered at less than 1 . 3 billion usd per gigawatt.
So Osinbajo has no clue about power generation, he is simply spooling out impossible promises to confuse the electorates. Worse part is that he is a pastor that is supposed to stand by the truth, how will he face God at the end of the day after telling blatant lies on the campaign trail.
http://www.punchng.com/news/apc-will-slash-tariffs-on-imported-cars-osinbajo/
this should be in front page not some of the non sense things we see on front page.Mods should do the needed! |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by oshyno(m): 2:03pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
Mods plz plz and plz this is the kind of topic that shud make FP. Nigerians have been yearning for issue based campaign . This is one of them. Very educative and informative.
Even as an engineer mysef av gained quite a lot here.
Move it to front page abeg. 1 Like |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by Ovamboland(m): 2:55pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
tswitch:
I am surprised you claim to be an engineer and have the term "quick fix" in your post. Every Engineering student/graduate or practising Engineers knows- DESIGN AND BUILD TO LAST! Quick points: 1. NG can only be transported by CNG "truck" to small and medium scale industry users.
2. The only viable option to transport large MMSCFD of NG required to sustainably run any electric power generating gas turbine remains a network of pipelines for obvious reasons like cost,reduce human error, automation,reliability,feasibility,viability etc. Due to the large volume the gas is liquefied as LNG, note not CNG.
3. As we use to say in design- nothing is new,we only model according to specifications. On you doing the design for an IPP, which stage of the design where you involved in? Conceptual? FEED? The whole universe knows design is team work and many disciplines are involves.So tell us your discipline so we can better understand reasons for your obvious lack of knowledge.
4. I still follow energy news and can categorically say you are lying on the Prof. for reasons best known to you,anyway don't forget he is also a priest........
5. How does an 8.8MW IPP eg Lagos Mainland(with only about 5MW generated by the gas turbine and the other MW generates by a diesel generator) feature in the grand scheme of power generation? Even a retard will be raise an eyebrow to the amount of billions sunk into an obviousky flawed plant. Why LSG did not save tax payers money and model power generation plans of heavy industries like Nestle, Cadbury since they generate almost same amount of electricity beats all imagination.
For the Inquisitive audience no FGN owned IPP has a capacity less than 120MW (some constructed by Siemens equipment by GE and none run with diesel generator like the Lagos State runned IPP -Ikeja) Another obvious fact is if you scale the cost of any Lagos State owned IPP to any of the FGN owned IPP you get almost twice the cost of the FGN own. Simply meaning the cost of a LSG owned 112.5MW may as well build and maintain an FGN owned 200MW plant. Google for verification.
One advise to the Professor of law - face law and legal matters only since an obvious nitwit is your power sector consultant.
It is obvious in your submission that you have allowed your preference or dislike for a certain candidates becloud your professional judgment in this matter. Your statements about conceptual FEED etc. show that you’re exposed to how engineering projects are conducted. To be honest there is hardly any engineering judgment or decision that is all positive and gives only advantages without certain inherent drawbacks. The expertise is to make optimum judgment that best tackles the peculiar local problems and sideline or solve as many problems as possible not all. Some of these problems in the Nigerian context include: 1. Lack of adequate gas delivery framework to most parts of the country 2. Failure of government to guarantee safety of the existing long distance pipelines 3. Dearth of local maintenance capability for maintenance of the huge gas turbines in large IPPs as opposed to comparatively efficient Gas engines (reciprocating) that can be deployed in the small IPP’s 4. Long gestation period to realize the huge power projects 3 – 5 years (many 200MW + projects initiated and started under OBJ before 2007 are still uncompleted 7 years after) as opposed to about 1 year for small projects construction of which can be given to several contractors simultaneously as required technical input is far lower. 5. The time to install and rig high tension power lines cost of huge pylons, heavy duty switch gears, transformers, sub-stations 33,000 KVA to 11,000 KVA etc In the light of the above, the novelty of the idea to take for instance 100 small towns for whom 10MW will be a miracle off the grid and concentrate production from huge plants like Egbin to Lagos and nearby all within 1 year. The debate should be about the relative cost of generation per KW.h as opposed to the cost of generation in large plants and transmission cost. Also consider the gestation period of each project, why consign millions of Nigerians to 2 -3 more years of darkness while waiting for gas pipelines and grid transmission? You think darkness is cheaper than a bit more expensive power? The mega projects must go on but you can leap frog development like people who mean business. By the time the grid power is available some towns might have grown beyond the token 10MW and need more power with investments in processing agricultural produce, meat packing, frozen food which is non-existent at this time. Private investors might even establish plants and sell power if the government develops the gas delivery infrastructure utilizing railway and trucking in complementary fashion. A friend who owns and runs a factory told me his monthly Diesel cost topped 3 million monthly until shell gas pipeline ran close to his factory. Now he spends about 800,000 naira monthly purchasing same power from IPP’s with his Diesel gen only as occasional back-up. Off-grid power generation is the new direction in power systems worldwide with the development of micro-turbines that individuals can generate power in their home cheaply. This is not feasible now in Nigeria as the infrastructure for gas delivery in homes is absent. The possibilities are endless if you open your mind, leave your high horse and leave blind criticism of a man who has a plan as opposed to support for one who is yet to articulate any plan. 5 Likes |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by Ovamboland(m): 3:00pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
ogb5:
It will be very foolish for anyone to supply a 10MW power plant with CNG using trucks. 10MW plant will supply only 3333 household with power at the Global average power rate of 3KW per household. If you have an average of 6 people per household that will mean your wonderful plant will only supply only 20,000 people. There is no town in Nigeria with only 20,000 people. You have not looked into the power required by businesses in these communities where you intend to put the plan. so for a small town with 200,000 people, you will need 10 of such power plants, with pressurised gas trucks running grids all over the city. Not workable!
And how do you intend to supply compressed Natural gas with trucks to power plants in Adamawa or Bornu or Sokoto, you want to truck gas from Warri or Portharcourt daily to those places?
Also to transport Compressed Natural gas with trucks, you need trucks fitted with high pressure vessels to act as container for the compressed gas. One thing with high pressure vessels is that they are very heavy. You will simply find yourself in a situation where a 50 ton truck only delivers 5 ton of gas due to the heavy container required for the gas. It is not workable, engineering has nmoved far beyond that phase, we now have pipelines for transporting compressed natural gas cheaply and efficiently.
Mr man. You can build a compressed natural gas plant for a small factory in Ibadan which does not have much alternative choice on power generation, but Nigeria has choices, we have gas pipelines that delivers gas from the Niger delta all the way to Abuja and to Ghana Try and calm down and read carefully, the plan will not stop at off-grid generation, if you can guarantee 3KW to 3000 farmers and artisans per town constantly in 100 towns the output will be unimaginable. And is there any reason why the plants can't scale up to 50 - 100 MW when the gas pipelines eventually arrive? It is never cheaper to leave their produce to rot and waste away or leave trained craftsmen to resign to riding 'Okada 'for another 3 years while waiting for the Mega plants that has not increased power generation beyond 4000MW in the last 7 years. 5 Likes |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by Ovamboland(m): 3:05pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
ogb5:
It will be very foolish for anyone to supply a 10MW power plant with CNG using trucks. 10MW plant will supply only 3333 household with power at the Global average power rate of 3KW per household. If you have an average of 6 people per household that will mean your wonderful plant will only supply only 20,000 people. There is no town in Nigeria with only 20,000 people. You have not looked into the power required by businesses in these communities where you intend to put the plan. so for a small town with 200,000 people, you will need 10 of such power plants, with pressurised gas trucks running grids all over the city. Not workable!
Really at the bold? how many people are living in Otuoke, Edun-Abon, Isi-alangwa, millions? If any of this town got a power plant of 10MW in the last 5 years you think anyone will have time to attend Buhari/Osinbajo campaign? 2 Likes |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by klerry(m): 3:42pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
@ OP, am not sure you know what you are talking about. Can you Google and check about CNG? Compressed natural gas, a lot if IPPS in Lagos that are not on the piped natural gas area make use of CNG. Google is ur friend don't come here without information. 1 Like |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by Ovamboland(m): 3:47pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
J12:
I've checked and you're right about the Marina IPP using CNG.
Howver, you can appreciate that Osinbade's plan is unfeasible because 1. Osinbajo wants to create modular power plants all over Nigeria. 2. Transporting CNGs through trucks to all modular power plants will an exhaustive load of resources. 3. Modular power plants are expensive to maintain and they don't last long. 4. It is finacially not feasible to use those type of power plants for our electricity needs.
Under the marina IPP, an 18km pipeline was constructed to feed the plant with constant gas supply. CNG's can't go farer in a pipeline. Which was why I initially doubted if they were used for power plants. Also, the marina and akute IPP generate only 10mw each. At least J12 has enough candor and integrity to acknowledge that power generation by CNG is a practical solution particularly for areas not served by gas pipeline. The OP's initial statements that it is impossible has been clearly and truthfully debunked, and in normal climes apologies for that statement is appropriate. However this is naija. I have directly relied on the OP figure though without verification that the plant in Lagos Island IPP marina cost 3.2 Billion naira for the 10 MW capacity, yet some people come here to say it cost 320 Billion or 32 Billion per MW which is clearly false. You do not win an argument by presenting false information, like the below post, remember intelligent people are also reading this thread. GiantParrot:
I see you edited your post. Interesting points. But they further expose you. I'll not bother with this until you provide answers to the questions by J12 on it. It is true that the unit cost of a small plant will be A BIT more than that of a large plant as a result of economies of scale. Your power plant costs N320b to install 10MW generating capacity = N32Billion per MW The Omotosho phase 1 thermal power plant cost $166,724,578 to install 335MW generating capacity = N99.54Million per MW (using $1 = 200). http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/03/fg-sells-omotosho-power-plant-to-chinese-investors/
Funny that you really need to start taking your own advice. 2 Likes |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by Ovamboland(m): 3:52pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
For anyone interested in gaining further information: Developing microgrids powered by compressed natural gas (CNG) and increasing CNG as a vehicle fuel, especially for heavy duty vehicles like the trucks that transport our food from farm to market and move good through the economy, is a cost effective, managed approach to generating incremental improvements to our energy security situation. CNG microgrids are a partial solution to the interrelated problems of producing electricity and fueling vehicles when a casualty strikes the primary electrical grid. The steps outlined in this article will not entirely resolve these challenges, but it is argued that they can make significant, rapid contributions to two interrelated problems – the vulnerability of our electrical grid and the high (and rising) costs (both financial and environmental) of reliance on gasoline and diesel as primary transportation fuels. CNG vehicle fueling is a potential “killer app” providing an economic incentive to invest in conversion of existing vehicles to run on CNG or purchase of new CNG vehicles, and invest in the fueling infrastructure necessary to take advantage of the cost savings CNG offers. http://ensec.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=442:islands-in-the-stream-the-compressed-natural-gas-grid-as-an-energy-security-enhancer&catid=137:issue-content&Itemid=422 2 Likes |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by GiantParrot(m): 4:05pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
Ovamboland:
I have directly relied on the OP figure though without verification that the plant in Lagos Island IPP marina cost 3.2 Billion naira for the 10 MW capacity, yet some people come here to say it cost 320 Billion or 32 Billion per MW which is clearly false. You do not win an argument by presenting false information, like the below post, remember intelligent people are also reading this thread.
I don't understand you o. The way you change figures is amazing. Ovamboland:
Such plants are quick to deliver once the basic dsign is done it can be adapted with detailing to different locations and constructed and commissioned in 1 year maximum, imagine towns like Ikire, Umudike, Kotangora, Aramoko, having 10MW plants each with 320Bn naira only, 100 small towns will have constant power so farmers, artisans, and produce processing be started without waiting for laying expensive and time consuming pipelines and high tension cables a step down transformers.
#modified. I see you've altered your post where you initially claimed you know this because you prepared a technical bid for one of the plants. But you forgot to remove the N320b you wrote. Well, that post is still captured in my very first mention of you. |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by greaterlove(m): 4:06pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
So far the current power plan of GEJ still remains the best. i have always said it that I am not happy with Jonathan on the handling of boko haram but for goodness sake this government has done wonders in agriculture, road construction, manufacturing, railway and power. The opposition should tell us how they intend to improve on these areas instead of painting it all black. |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by tomzman: 4:58pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
One of the most informative threads I've read on nl. 1 Like |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by Nobody: 5:19pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
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Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by Ovamboland(m): 5:23pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
GiantParrot:
I don't understand you o. The way you change figures is amazing.
#modified. I see you've altered your post where you initially claimed you know this because you prepared a technical bid for one of the plants. But you forgot to remove the N320b you wrote. Well, that post is still captured in my very first mention of you.
My post was never altered, just read calmly, each town at 10 MW you need only 320 bn naira for 100 towns is easy to understand to mean 3.2 billion per town. That is far less than 10% of FG annual budget to liberate over 300,000 destitute Nigerians and turn them into productive powerhouse in less than 1 year. Try and understand before you find loopholes in the plan. How can Lagos state use about 70% of its annual budget to build that tiny power plant? ![](/faces/huh.png) Maybe with better management and tight control the cost per plant might be significantly less than 3.2 bn as supplied by the OP. 5 Likes |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by netotse(m): 5:45pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
I AM AROUND ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png) . Can't remember when last I was this excited...this thread is proving to be different from the usual threads where electricity is discussed...let me weigh in... ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png) @Ovamboland Do you have any idea what the unit cost of gas for power is in naija? Do you have any idea what the unit cost of CNG is in naija? Do you have any idea what the unit cost of electricity is for the lagos IPPs? Do you have any idea what the unit cost of electricity is for the grid? The reason why I ask is because anything is possible in engineering, but the key goal is to produce a cost effective solution. Is Osinbajo trying to give Nigerians power at all costs? or power at affordable costs? Per chance you choose at all costs, where will he get the money to fund said distributed power from? P.S. I've decided to stay back at work just because of this thread...na so e dey sweet me reach. P.P.S I have a word document open on my computer now, depending on your answer, I will start posting info from said document ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png) |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by kokosheen(m): 6:02pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
ogb5: Voting in knowledgeable people is one of the beauty of democracy. This has been well developed by the advanced democracies in the west. To ensure that the nation elects the right people with the right skills, experience and qualifications, politicians are normally grilled on a range of subjects to gauge their understanding of the issues affecting their countries or constituency as the case may be.
In this vein looking at the power policy thrust of the APC as being put forward by no other person than their vice presidential candidate bring to fore some gross deficiency in the policy of the APC on power and shows that professor Osinbajo does not know what power generation entails.
The APC vice has consistently said that their government will improve power supply, the question is how will they do that. The answer to the question of 'how' was answered by Osinbajo on Tuesday in Ondo during a town hall session. This is what he had to say.
1. They will decentralise power generation. 2. The decentralised power plants will have gas supplied to them by trucks instead of pipelines 3. They will copy the model of power plants already established in Lagos state.
herein lies the ignorance of the professor, also hidden in the rhetoric of the professor is the avenue for looting the treasury. 1. Power generation has been decentralised. Anyone, be it federal government, state government, local government or private companies can now set up power generation plant and sell such produced power as they deem fit. So Osinbajo should tell us something different.
2. Technically you can not supply a power plant like the one in Lagos with gas using trucks. This simply mean the professor and those formulating his policy on power generation knows nothing about power generation. The Lagos plant uses natural gas, that is another theme for methane gas. Industrially methane has 2 means of being transported, by pipelines when the point of use is less than 5,000 km and as liquefied natural gas by ships followed by re gasification when the point of use is more than 5, 000 km from the point of production. The gas supplied by trucks is liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) used for domestic cooking. No country in the world bases her power generation on LPG. Moreover Nigeria does not have the facility to produce adequate LPG to cater for domestic cooking, so using LPG for power generation is out of the question. So Osinbajo promising to supply gas to power plants with trucks is simply talking about something that is not possible.
3. Osinbajo promised to model his modular power plants after the Lagos power plant. Simply put, the Lagos power plant is among the most expensive gas fired power plant in the world. The Ikeja modular power plant has an installed capacity of 10 megawatts and was built at a cost of 3.2 billion Naira. That was equivalent to about 2 billion usd per gigawatt of electricity. Globally the benchmark cost for gas fired power plants is 1 billion usd per gigawatt of electricity, the Ikeja plant cost twice the global benchmark for such plants. By planning to go with the Lagos model, Osinbajo is telling us the will deliver power at twice the global benchmark cost, and at a cost far higher than the current government is delivering power projects. Several gas fired power plants delivered by the current government in the last 4 yrs were delivered at less than 1 . 3 billion usd per gigawatt.
So Osinbajo has no clue about power generation, he is simply spooling out impossible promises to confuse the electorates. Worse part is that he is a pastor that is supposed to stand by the truth, how will he face God at the end of the day after telling blatant lies on the campaign trail.
http://www.punchng.com/news/apc-will-slash-tariffs-on-imported-cars-osinbajo/
this is about the most ignorant post on NL today... dude, you know absolutely nothing about LPG, NG, LNG or LNG so don't write what you don't know about please!!! 2 Likes |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by kokosheen(m): 6:02pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
OP, if you don't know, Nigeria produces enough LPG for the entire West African region through Nigeria LNG, the only problem is that we do not have the ship berthing facility for the size of LPG ships loaded at its production plant. Also, degasifying plants are few in number and expensive to set up, so the government needs to work more on that. Since you don’t know, LPG has been used for some years for power generation, so I wonder where you get your shitty information from - http://lpg-apps.org/uploads/Modules/Library/power-generation-lpg-gas-turbines-kuba_hitachi_mitsubishi_japan.pdfNote this: LNG is mainly Methane gas while LPG is mainly Propane & Butane. Basic chemistry tells you that LNG constituents would be C1 while LPG is C3 & C4 but for energy enthusiast the main thing you need to know is the Wobbe index ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wobbe_index) that gives an interchangeability of fuel gases such as NG & LPG and is used to compare the combustion energy output of different composition fuel gases in an appliance (fire, cooker etc.). In conclusion, Can modular power plants been set up as proposed by Osibanjo? Yes. Can they be powered by LPG? Yes Can LPG be transported in trucks to the locations of the power plants? Yes Does Nigeria produce enough LPG to power these plants? Yes http://www.ngrguardiannews.com/features/focus/192202-imperatives-of-migrating-to-petroleum-gasIf FGN gets off their back and provide the required facilities, you’ll be surprised what we can achieve. Please, stops making excuses for them. 4 Likes |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by netotse(m): 6:08pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
kokosheen:
this is about the most ignorant post on NL today... dude, you know absolutely nothing about LPG, NG, LNG or LNG so don't write what you don't know about please!!! Oga, I know a bit about all the gases you wrote up there and I agree with what he wrote, re-educate me ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png) |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by Ovamboland(m): 6:12pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
netotse: I AM AROUND . Can't remember when last I was this excited...this thread is proving to be different from the usual threads where electricity is discussed...let me weigh in... ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png)
@Ovamboland Do you have any idea what the unit cost of gas for power is in naija? Do you have any idea what the unit cost of CNG is in naija? Do you have any idea what the unit cost of electricity is for the lagos IPPs? Do you have any idea what the unit cost of electricity is for the grid?
The reason why I ask is because anything is possible in engineering, but the key goal is to produce a cost effective solution. Is Osinbajo trying to give Nigerians power at all costs? or power at affordable costs? Per chance you choose at all costs, where will he get the money to fund said distributed power from?
P.S. I've decided to stay back at work just because of this thread...na so e dey sweet me reach.
P.P.S I have a word document open on my computer now, depending on your answer, I will start posting info from said document ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png)
I am really glad this thread though not mine has really interested you. I don't have all the actual answers to your questions but i i have cited the case of my friend who owns an runs a factory with his report of huge savings when gas was available close to his factory. I agree there is significant cost associated with trucking CNG but that can be somewhat reduced by savings from need for more high tension cables and sub-stations. Just key in to the existing distribution network in the town with maybe minor modifications. Currently if you have observed several Green fuel CNG trucks with 8 long bottles can be seen on Lagos-Ibadan expressway delivering CNG from Sango –Otta to some factories in Ibadan. If it is not more cost effective than diesel they will go to the extent of trucking it in all the way. I have done calculation in the past about the consumption of different size of gas generators and the capacity of each CNG truck, I will furnish it here when I can find it. With serious governance and proper monitoring of the pipelines, maybe the lines can be extended from Sagamu junction to Ibadan, from Bonny to PH – Aba- Enugu and Uyo- Calabar to Obudu – Jalingo. Then the distance covered by the trucks can be reduced as the compression plants can be established at the farthest reach of the pipelines. By the time the pipelines reach the Northern towns trucking will only be necessary at even shorter distance to towns away from the pipeline route. If anything happens to the grid, those towns will not be without power at all as they can generate off-grid and consume locally. The micro plants will also be useful to meet peaking demands. I repeat it is more expensive to keep those people in the said 100 towns without power for the next 3 - 5 years while waiting to realize the mega plants, heavy duty transmission and pipeline they keep saying today is prone to vandalisation. 3 Likes |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by Ovamboland(m): 6:23pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
netotse:
Oga, I know a bit about all the gases you wrote up there and I agree with what he wrote, re-educate me ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png) NG - Natural gas at pipeline quality is mainly Methane at about 17 Bar pressure LPG - Mixture of Butane and Propane in different proportion mainly used for domestic purpose CNG - natural gas mainly Methane compressed to about 240 Bar in order to transport larger quantity per volume LNG - mainly Methane refrigerated to cryogenic temperatures - 162°C and transported over long distance as liquids to be regassified as destination NGL - mixture of hydrocarbon gases C1 to C12 to be further processed to constitients 3 Likes |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by kokosheen(m): 6:27pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
Ovamboland:
NG - Natural gas at pipeline quality is mainly Methane at about 17 Bar pressure
LPG - Mixture of Butane and Propane in different proportion mainly used for domestic purpose
CNG - natural gas mainly Methane compressed to about 240 Bar in order to transport larger quantity per volume
LNG - mainly Methane refrigerated to cryogenic temperatures - 162°C and transported over long distance as liquids to be regassified as destination
NGL - mixture of hydrocarbon gases C1 to C12 to be further processed to constitients thanks.. made my work easier we currently don't produce CNGs though.. |
Re: Ignorant APC Vice Prof. Osinbajo Does Not Know Gas by kokosheen(m): 6:32pm On Feb 12, 2015 |
netotse:
Oga, I know a bit about all the gases you wrote up there and I agree with what he wrote, re-educate me ![grin](https://www.nairaland.com/faces/grin.png) you don't even know the difference between CNG & LPG and you say you know a bit? Haba, not everyone on this forum is a novice you know!!! 1 Like |