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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Education / Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc (26877 Views)
Bsc.economics/ed Vs Bsc.economics. / Hnd Vs Bsc Is The Case Rest / Hnd Vs Bsc (2) (3) (4)
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Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by wow: 7:10pm On Mar 04, 2007 |
I be an HND holder and I know who I am. They thought us that if you are erecting a building and its foundation or structure is not good, The building would collapse one day it it even stand for you to see. If you are designing electronics, and there is a simple fault on the power supply, your project will never work. If you are doing any mathematical calculation, and the beginning is wrong, no matter what you do to achieve an answer ( right or wrong) at the end is wrong. This is because a wrong start at any engineering or mathematics would bring a blown circuit board. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 8:54am On Mar 05, 2007 |
The universal technological man power pyramid we know before the introduction of Engineering Technology is ratio 1:4:12 very effective for this country when one Engineer requires four technician and 12 craft men. This is still what is in practice today in advanced countries of the wolrld, the word craft was simply changed to betternames as Technician or TECHNOLOGIST where someTechnician was branded as Technologists not trained like the Nigerian HND. Other countries use the word technician to replace craft men. The Nigerian polytechnics syllabus for Higher National Diploma is far above some of these countries Engineering technology. Nigerian HND certificate was regarded as that of postgraduate in some countries, based on the workload and the credit hours. The only reason for the scanty nature of the COREN register for Engineering Technologist is the placing of the cadre as a sub to Degree. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 9:05am On Mar 05, 2007 |
In the public service HND holders are employed on GL 07 the limit to an HND holder is Chief Technical officer, The Engineering technologist do not exist beyond COREN office as the civil service seems to have no record of it so they could not recognize it. Whereas a University degree who registered with COREN can rise far above to Directorate level, the grade Level bar on the HND holders who are Civil Servants has been removed the engineering technologist should enjoy it. Gasper (2000) stated that the division of labour at engineering cadre is not to make one cadre superior to the other. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 9:08am On Mar 05, 2007 |
For HND holders, discrimination in labour market continues since nobody seems to know the meaning of ENGINEERING TECHNOLOGY and this cannot be justified, each HND programme is a five years programme at the polytechnic against the 4 years of the University engineer,we gave our support for the call for polytechnic cancellation. Nigerian Association of Technologists and Engineers (NATE) is the only HND holders organized society for now, and the experience so far show the hatred from the B.Sc. Engineers for the TECHNOLOGIST. The HND engineering graduates were refused recognition and often lumped in the technical cadre with those of lower qualification. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 9:09am On Mar 05, 2007 |
This is another way the NSE deflated the Technologist cadre. Even then the first examination held by NSE was drawn for 20 candidates but only two showed up and only one wrote the paper. The other spent time to explain the Hate-Crimes as a protest to why he should not write the examination. In 1985 the NSE introduced a local ladder an equivalent of CE I part II examination through the approval by council, the first exam proper was held in 1988 and by the end of 1990, 693 HND holders and FTC holders had taken the exam it these men were Technologist now we shoul be talking above 1000 Technologists and for years only 124 had passed the examination and waited again for 2 years before been registered by COREN. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 9:15am On Mar 05, 2007 |
NATE challenge the right of NSE to conduct such exams in court but due to “superior” ability of NSE, the court was well attended by brilliant lawyers and the situation favor NSE as reported by Prof. Ade Ajayi's History of NSE The past debts inherited by Engr. Inuwa may also be reckoned as the sore problem caused by NATE who had taken the NSE to court over the graduateship examination for HND holders. The "hate" became critical when Engr. Inuwa became president of COREN and again used his influence with the Government, he was able to complete the process of amending Decree 55 of 1970. Thus Degree 27 of 1992 finally rename Technological Engineers as Engineering Technologist with abbreviation Engn.Tech which Britain used for their Technician. Before this new decree NATE was involved in the amendment. COREN, agreed to Technological Engineers in fact NATE suggested COREN'S new name "Council for Regulation of Engineering in Nigeria (COREN) as a way to meet the desire of the HND holders. Several other issues were yet unresolved before some people with vested interest in COREN rushed into the amendment of the decree. To this end a rival organization was floated by COREN and financed by NSE named Nigerian Institute of Engineering Technologist (NIET) whose registration was rejected by corporate affairs commission (CAC) this was to put to rest the agitation of NATE. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 9:30am On Mar 05, 2007 |
NATE as an association has tried very much in championing the right cause of HND holders right from inception, NATE has always opposed the designation as Engineering Technologist but for separation of Identity Technological Engineers was used. Re-designating courses run in the Polytechnic as Technology is a plan to prevent competition and it was so easy to libeled the HND Engineers as Technologist. In Canada Technologist is 3 years course and not in anyway trained as Nigerian HND. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 9:33am On Mar 05, 2007 |
Today we are witnessing Engineering Technologist and Engineers in Nigeria. In the Trenched hall University of Ibadan at the 7th Arokodare Memorial lecture, Engr. Fadupin did not hide his feeling of hate when he openly called on the NSE to do more by opposing COREN registration through mature program. Since nurses, Pharmacists and lawyers do not have mature route, so let every body go on a level playing ground. NSE should be for university graduate. All that attend polytechnic at one time or the other should join the TECHNOLOGIST, Today the Nurses and other paramedical stayed on their own. HND engineering can go to places and have their own council. In 1998 an amicable resolution to this "hate crimes" was reached a mature route for was open for HND graduate, COREN counter proposal limit the mature route to 1982. NSE put a stop to this mature route in 1999 then NATE have to sacrifice by agreeing to change name for this, the mature route became open till December 2002 for graduate who are 45 years of age and obtained HND 1982. Consequently, NATE agreed to change name to Technologist Engineering. COREN which has been sponsoring a rival group NIET for registration is in a delimma to withdraw that sponsorship or not, and the mature route was announced on November 16th at Owerri by COREN'S president Engr. Osoba. The important of this route was that all those who graduate up to 1982 with HND became be Engineers but still in their old grade up till today leaving the Technologist. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 9:46am On Mar 05, 2007 |
No body give any respect to COREN Technologist Registration, the certificate is worthless and has no professional value for academic, employment even consultancy. As at today more than 70% of registered Technologist already move to the register of engineers and mostly current NATE members are fully registered engineers, by every standard those that are not registered as engineers are more than qualify. Why should we waste our money trying to be Engineering Technologist when we can equally be engineers that is why the register of Engineers swelled up |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 9:54am On Mar 05, 2007 |
At today about 50% of new intakes in NSE had HND+PGD, so who would want to remain as technologist? So many HND holders have contributed or are contributing very meaningfully to the development of Nigeria. The discrimination preventing NATE members from going beyond Level 14 in the civil and local Government services is on solvable with COREN registration. The civil service only recognized Technical and Higher Technical Officers. This Engineering Technologists is still strange to the civil service, Technologists cannot go any further, and this places some kind of disadvantage not only on the HND holders and COREN but on the country as well. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 9:55am On Mar 05, 2007 |
HND holders ordinarily should have much more contributed to our development and we feel that the COREN should review its policy with the presidential directive. The Higher National Diploma (HND) as a programme in the country’s education system would cease to exist when the government abolished it and replace it with B. Sc, B.Eng., and B. Tech. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 9:56am On Mar 05, 2007 |
Same privileges for Technologists and Engineers is what we feel can maintained Engineering man power pyramid in the this country or outright cancellation of the Technologists cadre if better treatment cannot be given to the Technologists. The FTC and ND holders could occupy the cadre, as the HND is not inferior to first Degree in Nigeria again, the National Diploma (ND) programmes may be retained "as a non-degree component as this is the critical middle level manpower that the country needs. Engineering Technology was duped on HND holders, why some university actually have faculty of Technology, we of NATE felt this is part of the hatred for HND as those who had Bachelor of technology in engineering were registered as engineers. This is one of the sour points in polytechnic education, because employers of labour and universities refuse to rate HND as equivalent to a university degree for the purpose of employment or use the Engineering Technologist certificate of COREN as something with value. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 9:58am On Mar 05, 2007 |
Section 6 of the National Policy on Education, listed the Polytechnics as one of the five types of technical education institutions outside the Universities which offer technical education. It further defined technical education as that aspect of education which leads to the acquisition of practical and applied skills as well as basic scientific knowledge. The polytechnics that most of the adaptive researches, relevant to national aspirations for development were being carried out. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 10:00am On Mar 05, 2007 |
Over 75 percent of polytechnic lecturers are university graduates and are designated as lecturers, having the career path of becoming Chief Lecturer, Head of School, and Rector. Polytechnic graduates are called instructors and cannot attain any of these positions except they get additional University degree. This discrimination is now more prevalent in the larger society where some government agencies and private companies have refused to employ polytechnic graduates with its COREN Engineering Technology registration. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 10:02am On Mar 05, 2007 |
Why pegging HND holders progress? Even in the university, there is an institutional organ called the congregation or the convocation, to be a member of the congregation, you should be a graduate (which is not a right of Polytechnics graduate) and by the interpretation of the graduate, you have to be a degree holder. Because of that in the appointment of, say the Engineering personnel some with HND who are very good, can not be place in the position even with COREN engineering Technologists Certificate, because if you do, you are no more qualified to be a member of the congregation. So such things are there. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 10:03am On Mar 05, 2007 |
This has been a recurring decimal in the Nigerian education system. We could recall by the year 1983 – 84, following the Cookey Commission report, there was a distinction that was created between the salaries of he various tertiary institutions, these emanated from the provisions of the policy of education in the country, because within the polity, there was a need to create various categories of manpower in the system; middle level manpower, high-level manpower and the rest of them. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 10:03am On Mar 05, 2007 |
Till today an HND holder on level 13 who registered as Technologist with COREN and later had the mature rout with COREN as engineer is still reporting to a level 9 officer with university degree. The mature route was more of trap than progress as most members are either retired or frustrated after such an exercise. But of course, you must understand that the society is changing. when the current President was a military Head of State, he tried to harmonize the graduates of the polytechnic with those of universities, but it did not work. The employers themselves sometime prefer some polytechnic graduates to university graduates in some professions. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 10:04am On Mar 05, 2007 |
", however difficult the moment, however frustrating the hour, it will not be long, because truth pressed to earth will rise again. How long? Not long, because no lie can live forever. How long? Not long, because you will reap what you sow. How long ? Not long, because the arm of the moral universe , bends towards justice." Behind tomorrow's curtain" Martin Luther King Jr. March 25, 1965 This quote is from the speech OUR GOD IS MARCHING ON delivered by Martin Luther King Junior (MLK) in the front of the Alabama State capitol in Montgomery, to celebrate the triumph of the four-day grueling march from Selma's bloody Edmund Pettus Bridge. In the celebrated speech, MLK invited those who vowed that the civil rights protesters would never get to the steps of the capitol and those who swore that it would only happen over their dead bodies to come and attest to the victory of the burning desire for freedom over that of bondage. He was ecstatic about the triumph and he reveled in it. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 10:06am On Mar 05, 2007 |
We in NATE have followed closely the interesting debates over the years on this matter of HND/BSc. We hope that the COREN we give us some grant to go into our archives and re-publish the series of major seminar papers and memoranda on this issue for the education of the public at large. One other impact of the discrimination against HND in Nigeria is the squander/wastage of national intellectual and industrial potential and capacity. We are convinced that the only intent of the Government institutionalized discrimination is the elimination of serious competitors in the deliberately narrowed field of participation created by the lack of industrial and cultural expansion in Nigeria. When next you see anyone brandishing their paper qualifications but not their performance track record, take note that you are seeing an ignorant person covering up the fact with the futile arrogance of paper. He/she is a paper tiger. A tiger does not boast of its tigritude [paper/theoretical ability to maul], it will actually tear up somebody, and the case is settled! Let the paper tiger SHOW US what they have done with their paper degree. It is all part of the culture of waste prevalent in the underdeveloped mind. We must redeem the day. The Indians (and now)- the Chinese too are already there! Let Nigerian stop boasting and let us start doing and our work will speak for us. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 10:07am On Mar 05, 2007 |
The HND/BSc unending discrimination and ensuing debate are one major reason besides "corruption" why Nigeria has failed to industrialize, because those who know are often sidelined and those who don't know get moved into positions of decision making, where they wield power -unfortunately with little real life experience on which to ground their decisions, and so they fail! If you ask us, telling a lie is the root of all corruption. Telling a deliberate lie [when we say a man is "not qualified or not competent" when in fact he is!] - because of the inordinate ambition to gain an upper hand over a good competitor- is corruption. All corrupt acts necessarily begin with a deliberate lie. Of what use is the registration with COREN as Engineering Technologist so our members says. COREN registration cannot remove shame from our HND certificate. The impression in many circles is that the university degree that COREN registered, as Engineers is much higher than the Higher National Diploma (HND) registered as Engineering Technologist. What is more, polytechnic students aspire to acquire university qualification after the HND in form of PGD for Nigerian society of engineers membership. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 10:08am On Mar 05, 2007 |
It should be noted that HND holders studied in polytechnics not as a result of academic incompetence, but owing largely to frustration (resulting from continued delay in securing university admission) and sometimes on financial grounds. In fact, HND holders are not in any way inferior to university degree holders. At the primary and secondary school levels, the same lessons are taught, and the same examinations are set for them. HND holders have been found to be very efficient by employers of labour, as they are more practical oriented than university graduates. So, the emphasis should be on holders (of Degree or HND) and not the title (or certificate). Polytechnic education was designed as a component of the country's philosophy of manpower development. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 10:09am On Mar 05, 2007 |
The National Policy on Education (2004) states unequivocally that the polytechnics shall provide the technical knowledge and skills necessary for agricultural, industrial, commercial and economic development of Nigeria. The polytechnics are further mandated to give training and impart the necessary skills for the production of technicians, technologists and other skilled personnel who shall be enterprising and self-reliant. There is hierarchy in the scheme of the COREN that provides for Craft men, technicians from technical colleges and theoretical technicians (ND) holders from polytechnics we equally have the technologists (HND) holders from both polytechnic and universities, and engineers degree and PGD holders. All these categories have their functions because of lack of value for the technologists and the societal discriminations every body wanted a conversion, then this means everyone would be at par, making everyone an engineer this has swell the register of engineers, leaving few to performs other duties and functions. The discriminations between HND and degree holders were responsible for this sad development. Let take the case of the Nurses in Nigeria, they were well respected they have councils of their own with state and federal registration and adequately remunerated, never do they want to be doctors, but the Engineering technologist are interested to be an NSE member, often Technologists are intimidated and forced by NSE members to write NSE exams even force them to go to their NSE meeting. There is an institutional organ called the congregation or the convocation, to be a member of the congregation, One should be a graduate and by the interpretation of the graduate, is to be a degree holder. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 10:10am On Mar 05, 2007 |
RESOLVING THE SITUATION The problems have already been outlined the expectation that the issues will be resolved in due time. However, there is certainly an urgency that cannot be wished away in dealing with the key issues of recognition, title, remuneration and amendment of the COREN Decrees. On Recognition: One of the major problems has been the perception of the HND as middle level, technical manpower because the polytechnics are lumped with technical schools under the same regulatory body - National Board for Technical Education. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 10:11am On Mar 05, 2007 |
On Title and Designation: The American Model designates holders of the 4-yr engineering technology program (BS ET) as engineers, the same way as the holder of the HND or CNAA degree is in the British system. Thus, it is a wonder why there is so much resistance to accepting this title for the HND holder in Nigeria. degree in Technology (B.Tech) in Polytechnics ‘as this will effectively stem the drift from the technical cadre.’ |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 10:13am On Mar 05, 2007 |
The relegation of technical know-how in general manifests in many ways in Nigerian society. Parents want their children to become doctors and lawyers but rarely do they recommend engineers and technicians as role models for their kids. When you mention technical education, people think of nitty-gritty hard labour jobs, out in the sun in shorts and rolled up sleeves stained with oil and grease. But we cannot also fail to recognise the dangers posed to Nigeria's progress by the national obsession with white-collar professions and vocations at the expense of the no-less-important technical education and skills acquisition aspect. This issue is gradually assuming alarming dimensions in the context of the increasing importance of technical know-how and technology in general in world development. The uncomfortable truth staring at us is that the modern world is technology-driven, with less premium on memo-pushing white-collar jobs that lure our people. It is therefore a matter of national urgency that steps are taken to realign our educational bearings to dovetail into the ongoing world-wide technological revolution. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by zebra(m): 12:06pm On Mar 05, 2007 |
May God help nigeria. Scrapping polytechnics and HND will not solve nigeria's problems, it will only worsen it. Our policy makers are something else. Can nigeria ever be an industrialized nation with out Technical education?? |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 4:45pm On Apr 30, 2007 |
HND slave qualification is no longer for us. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by ishmael(m): 7:42am On May 02, 2007 |
For long i have not heard anything about the educational reforms. Are polytechnics still going to continue their normal ND/HND programs??as or are they going to start running ND/BTech programs from next session?? Any news?? because everybody is silent about it; even the education minister that carried out the reforms i learnt she has gotten another appointment in US abi na UK sef. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 12:07pm On May 02, 2007 |
They are going to start running ND/BTech programs from next session Waiting for news because everybody is silent about but the draft bill is ready. Yaadua may complete it. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by ishmael(m): 4:49pm On Jun 19, 2007 |
@Hnd-holder HND is a stressful qualification in nigeria. one can even get hypertension or high BP if he/she is holding HND certificate. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by Hndholder(m): 4:54pm On Jun 19, 2007 |
I stand to confirm that it is true HND can cause High BP. |
Re: Hnd Vs Bsc, B. Eng, Etc by ishmael(m): 4:37pm On Jun 20, 2007 |
Yes most people who develop high BP in Nigeria are holders of HND certificates. |
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