enronaldonante:


I thought God as the ultimate moral arbiter is above Good and Evil? So what the hell do you mean by "God Is Evil"?

What god are you referring to if i may ask?

XxSabrinaxX:

What god are you referring to if i may ask?

The God in your op.

enronaldonante:

The God in your op.

I'm talking of the christian god. How do u mean he is above good and evil?

XxSabrinaxX:


I'm talking of the christian god. How do u mean he is above good and evil?

I mean he creates the concept of good and evil, arbitrarily determines what's good or bad, and punishes those who fail to observe good and bad.
For example, stealing is bad why is it so? Is it our 'conscience' lying somewhere in the brain. If so whoever created the brain(Yahweh) thens determines how humans perceive good or bad. If on the other hand we say it is stealing is bad because God(bible) says so, then stealing can also be good if God says so.
So in the christian concept of God, the adjectives Good and Bad can not be applied to God because Good/bad have to first be arbitrarily defined/set by God.

enronaldonante:


I mean he creates the concept of good and evil, arbitrarily determines what's good or bad, and punishes those who fail to observe good and bad.
For example, stealing is bad why is it so? Is it our 'conscience' lying somewhere in the brain. If so whoever created the brain(Yahweh) thens determines how humans perceive good or bad. If on the other hand we say it is stealing is bad because God(bible) says so, then stealing can also be good if God says so.
So in the christian concept of God, the adjectives Good and Bad can not be applied to God because Good/bad have to first be arbitrarily defined/set by God.

Ok. I'm trying to understand something.

Isn't the whole reason humanity got expelled from the Garden of Eden was because we ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? Didn't the Serpent say that by doing so we would become like God? That must mean Good and Evil as concepts exist, and that God knows of/is comprised of both.
By eating the fruit we became like God in that sense, and is why we and the Serpent were punished. Pain during childbirth, snakes slithering on their bellies, shorter lifespans, etc. So why can we not use the Knowledge we've gained of Good and Evil and attribute Evil to God if the glove fits?

Also, morals don't come from God. They are anchored in biology, and developed further by human reason. Research on the evolution of morality. We are evolved to
behave altruistically because that increases the chances of survival and reproductive success of our tribe.

Animals have morals too. Chimpanzees for example are very similar to humans in
expressing and valuing direct and indirect reciprocity, altruism and reciprocal altruism, attachment and bonding, cooperation and mutual aid, sympathy and empathy, community concern, compassion, conflict resolution and peacemaking, having an understanding of justice and a tendency to be aware of and responsive to the social rules of the group. These abilities and traits evolved in primate societies as a method of restraining
individual selfishness and building more cooperative groups, which is evolutionary
beneficial for social animals.

Since our mental capacities grew powerful enough, we are able to reflect on our morality and improve upon it. The field that studies the question of how one ought to act, morally speaking, and has driven moral progress for a long time, is called normative ethics. There is an excellent introductory lecture series by Michael Sandel on Youtube on this topic. Several ethical theories like consequentialism, deontology or virtue ethics have emerged from philosophical discourse, as well as many famous principles like the Golden Rule, the Categorical Imperative, the theory of natural rights or social contract theory.

Religion never comes into the picture, except as a reactionary force that tries to hold humanity back. The claim that religion is a requirement for morality is trivially easy to refute with a little bit of history:

Throughout their existence, churches permanently fought tooth and nail against almost any ethical achievement that is a pillar of the Western value canon today, like human rights, democracy, equal rights for women, end of racial segregation, freedom of speech, and now they still fight against things like gay rights and sexual self determination.
Religion also doesn't offer a system of evaluating moral acts.
All moral systems are secular. Religion just makes pronouncements about morality, but offers no analysis, no way of judging new and previously unknown moral situations or dilemmas, no resolution when values get into conflict with one another. What religion teaches isn't morality, it's just obedience and surrender and doing whatever your cult leader commands.

XxSabrinaxX:


Would you happen to be a pantheist?

If you say so... But that is the idea of the God described in the old testament.. Divine consciousness.. (Lord Marduk)

TATIME:
You should have searched for TRUE Christians to understand the gospels better!
Matthew and Luke aren't saying Jesus was related to Joseph by blood. Matthew's account of Jesus' birth was through Mary's biography because Joseph and Mary were related from the lineage of Judah, you'll notice that the names in the lineage changed at some point,so Joseph is considered a son before his In-law! while Luke's account traced the descent from Adam down to Joseph who was considered by everyone as "Jesus' father".
And while you're quoting the Bible book of Revelations, please note that it's part of the books WRITTEN by John one of the followers of JESUS the same person you're denying His Lordship!
When i was a Muslim, we condemned Apostle Paul because he also condemned Muhammad at {Galatians 1:8} but when we want to support our belief that women must cover their heads, we'll quote the same Apostle Paul's letter to the Corinthians 11:10 because there is NO other book to quote in support of our hijab!

You did not grasp my comment, did you?
The gospel stories you are reading about jesus was ancient myths or stories about Lord Marduk.. He was the son of Enki.. In the Enuma elish, marduk is the good Sherpard, the son of the father, etc, but in the Enuma elish he did not die as there was no reason to.. He was the one who killed the dragon Tiamat attributed to jesus in the book of revelation...
The book of revelation are what happened before the creation of the universe, how marduk Fred all the gods and he was crowned the lugal dimmer ankia which means the divine king of heaven and earth...
Marduk is jesus... Got it now?

sonmvayina:


You did not grasp my comment, did you?
The gospel stories you are reading about jesus was ancient myths or stories about Lord Marduk.. He was the son of Enki.. In the Enuma elish, marduk is the good Sherpard, the son of the father, etc, but in the Enuma elish he did not die as there was no reason to.. He was the one who killed the dragon Tiamat attributed to jesus in the book of revelation...
The book of revelation are what happened before the creation of the universe, how marduk Fred all the gods and he was crowned the lugal dimmer ankia which means the divine king of heaven and earth...
Marduk is jesus... Got it now?

So who wrote the book of Revelation? Because Jesus' name and the name of His 12 Apostles were WRITTEN in the Bible book of Revelation!

[quote author=TATIME post=74393067] So who wrote the book of Revelation?[/quot]

Catholics... Who else would?.. Just as they did all the books of the new testament..

[quote author=sonmvayina post=74393124][/quote] But you quoted the book of Revelation, so were you also referring to the Catholic fabrication to support your claims?

TATIME:
So who wrote the book of Revelation? Because Jesus' name and the name of His 12 Apostles were WRITTEN in the Bible book of Revelation!

Catholics... Who else would?.. Just as they did all the books of the new testament

sonmvayina:



Catholics... Who else would?.. Just as they did all the books of the new testament

So why were you quoting the fabrication of the Catholics to support your claims? Or are you saying part of their fabrication can be reckoned with?

TATIME:
But you quoted the book of Revelation, so were you also referring to the Catholic fabrication to support your claims?

The gospel stories and revelation where adapted from ancient tales about marduk, its all in the babylonian myths or the tablets of creation..

How marduk created the universe from the body of Tiamat and how all the gods drew their "cast" for the earth... Etc.. An, Enki, Enlil and their consorts being the senior gods...how Inanna stole the Mes from Enki and she was elevated to the pantheon, Ninmah was withdrawn.. She became the Goddess of death and destruction and a rival to marduk.. She is lucifer in Isaiah 14...which people misinterprete as the devil...

The bible is actually a spiritual manual not a history textbook.... Look at it with the eye of your spirit.. It is quite interesting.. It is the Romans who added their bull shit story of a dying and resurrecting God at the end of the Jewish Tanakh to make mockery of God.. It is quite sad to say the least..

@sonmvayina
You said the book of Revelation was written or revealed before creation,so was it also revealing the names of Moses,Elijah,Jesus,God and Magog,the Apostles of Jesus and death,hell that were cast into the lake of fire.
Are you saying all of these were revealed before creation?

TATIME:
@sonmvayina
You said the book of Revelation was written or revealed before creation,so was it also revealing the names of Moses,Elijah,Jesus,God and Magog,the Apostles of Jesus and death,hell that were cast into the lake of fire.
Are you saying all of these were revealed before creation?

You don't really know anything about Christian history.. Do you think all the books of the Bible where written at the same time?.. Do you know the book of Revelation was the last to be included in the Canon... The book of Revelation was written from many sources, the book of Daniel, Egyptian book of the dead, the decent of Inanna to the underworld.. Etc,.. Adding those names is not hard..
It has been re written several times, edited,.. Before arriving at the present form..

So its not hard at all... They only stopped editing when a certain German invented the printing press..

sonmvayina:


The gospel stories and revelation where adapted from ancient tales about marduk, its all in the babylonian myths or the tablets of creation..

How marduk created the universe from the body of Tiamat and how all the gods drew their "cast" for the earth... Etc.. An, Enki, Enlil and their consorts being the senior gods...how Inanna stole the Mes from Enki and she was elevated to the pantheon, Ninmah was withdrawn.. She became the Goddess of death and destruction and a rival to marduk.. She is lucifer in Isaiah 14...which people misinterprete as the devil...

The bible is actually a spiritual manual not a history textbook.... Look at it with the eye of your spirit.. It is quite interesting.. It is the Romans who added their bull shit story of a dying and resurrecting God at the end of the Jewish Tanakh to make mockery of God.. It is quite sad to say the least..

I know that all those things are written somewhere because it's not your psycho that's just fabricating it now.
So i don't doubt your reading it in some Babylonian whatever, but my question is "what has the book written in Babylon got to do with that of the Jews and only Romans how come other world powers like Egyptians, Assyrians, Greeks,English,Americans and of course African Civilization like Ethiopians,Benin and Oyo,Idahomeh empires not included in those info.

sonmvayina:


You don't really know anything about Christian history.. Do you think all the books of the Bible where written at the same time?.. Do you know the book of Revelation was the last to be included in the Canon... The book of Revelation was written from many sources, the book of Daniel, Egyptian book of the dead, the decent of Inanna to the underworld.. Etc,.. Adding those names is not hard..
It has been re written several times, edited,.. Before arriving at the present form..

So its not hard at all... They only stopped editing when a certain German invented the printing press..

So the book was written from many sources, OK which part of it to be precise was written or revealed before creation? So that we can all know which part of it WAS NOT FABRICATED by the Roman Catholics!

TATIME:
I know that all those things are written somewhere because it's not your psycho that's just fabricating it now.
So i don't doubt your reading it in some Babylonian whatever, but my question is "what has the book written in Babylon got to do with that of the Jews and only Romans how come other world powers like Egyptians, Assyrians, Greeks,English,Americans and of course African Civilization like Ethiopians,Benin and Oyo,Idahomeh empires not included in those info.

You forgot God sent the jews to babylon on exile to learn about him?.. As they never knew who the creator of the universe was..
Judaism as a religion started when they left the babylonian exile and Ezra being well knowledgible on the laws of God was given the task of writing the Torah.. He got much of his stories from the babylonian epics..
Just as people go to US for economic reasons now, people go to babylon in ancient times to learn about God... Almost all the religion of the world has their origin from babylon apart from Africa, ours was quite unique, well and still very much like the babylonian..... But with different names for the gods... Marduk =Chukwu =Eledumare..

TATIME:
So the book was written from many sources, OK which part of it to be precise was written or revealed before creation? So that we can all know which part of it WAS NOT FABRICATED by the Roman Catholics!

All are things that have already happened.. Before the creation of the universe as recorded in the tablet of creation book 1and 2..

sonmvayina:


You forgot God sent the jews to babylon on exile to learn about him?.. As they never knew who the creator of the universe was..
Judaism as a religion started when they left the babylonian exile and Ezra being well knowledgible on the laws of God was given the task of writing the Torah.. He got much of his stories from the babylonian epics..
Just as people go to US for economic reasons now, people go to babylon in ancient times to learn about God... Almost all the religion of the world has their origin from babylon apart from Africa, ours was quite unique, well and still very much like the babylonian..... But with different names for the gods... Marduk =Chukwu =Eledumare..

Is it the same God who condemned the magic and spiritism practiced by the Babylonians or another God? Are you saying what Moses got as laws regarding the false practices of all other nations were uninspired? Please let me get your explanations clearly, is it only the gospels that was fabricated in Rome or the whole Bible? Because it's clearly written in the Hebrew scriptures that God abhors all the practices of all other nations called worship!

sonmvayina:


All are things that have already happened.. Before the creation of the universe as recorded in the tablet of creation book 1and 2..

You've not answered my question! WHICH PART OF REVELATION WAS FABRICATED BY THE ROMAN CATHOLICS,added or subtracted from the TABLET of creation? So that we can know which part to believe!

TATIME:
Is it the same God who condemned the magic and spiritism practiced by the Babylonians or another God? Are you saying what Moses got as laws regarding the false practices of all other nations were uninspired? Please let me get your explanations clearly, is it only the gospels that was fabricated in Rome or the whole Bible? Because it's clearly written in the Hebrew scriptures that God abhors all the practices of all other nations called worship!

I don't know where to start the lecture from, but you have to delete the idea that the Bible is literal or historical... From your mind.. Only then can you grasp the message...

sonmvayina:


I don't know where to start the lecture from, but you have to delete the idea that the Bible is literal or historical... From your mind.. Only then can you grasp the message...

Hmmmmmmmmm So if i format everything in my brains regarding the well documented records in the Bible. I will now replace it with your BABYLONIAN whatever, right?
My friend you're the one to DELETE all what the Babylonians have downloaded in your head.Remember that Babylon is now Iraq and Iraqis are Muslims today,so where can we find all those tablets today since Iraqis are now pioneering Islam which is just the religion brought by a man from Saudi Arabia, and what's more? They're diehard believers of HELLFIRE! Which you who is claiming you studied their Tablets is refuting today.
So to cut the long story short, both you and i must first agree that what we are saying never happened in our presence, we only read books that we believed it's true,therefore anyone could be right. What we need now is the evidence of what we're saying and of course the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of our so called messages. What are the benefits as in the aftereffects of the teachings in the society, since we both agreed that there is God. What we're deliberating on now is "where can we find the WISDOM from above?" Please we need facts well documented and also those PRACTICING what we're saying to exhibit what we've got. Not just arguments on unseen books or tablets!

The most annoying one is the claim that sin no get different weight. How can a God give someone that told a cheap lie and someone that killed 1000 people the same punishment. Even we as human beings will punish them differently. If God truly exists up there then......

ChiefAzubuike:
The most annoying one is the claim that sin no get different weight. How can a God give someone that told a cheap lie and someone that killed 1000 people the same punishment. Even we as human beings will punish them differently. If God truly exists up there then......

Exactly. Even we humans can be more moral than this so called god. Any 'omnibenevolent' god that can order the killing of innocent women and especially children, just to spite his enemies, is a mighty contradiction. Surely, there are better options that. Its truly surreal how people can be gullible and zombified by this delusion called religion.

ChiefAzubuike:
The most annoying one is the claim that sin no get different weight. How can a God give someone that told a cheap lie and someone that killed 1000 people the same punishment. Even we as human beings will punish them differently. If God truly exists up there then......

A CHEAP LIE?
Hmmmmmmmmm well my friend we humans see only things that's close to our sight but higher intelligent beings do foresee things from far distance.
A CHEAP LIE may look so minute but it becomes a disaster when the liar has something that's of high value to protect, e.g. position, status, job,marriage and so on. If it would cost the liar any of these, then it will lead to measures in covering up the SECRET or SCANDAL which usually leads to the killing of whoever knows the FACTS if such a person is a man/woman of integrity who can't be bought!
So how does it all begin? Just because of a CHEAP lie!
Genocide do becomes the ONLY solution to cover up a CHEAP lie from some highly respected government officials in the society! So my friends God sees far distance of the outcome of all things, that's why HE placed the same kind of punishment on all wrongdoings! Galatians 5:19-21 compared to Revelations 21:8
Teach your children today that lying is a crime and stop lying most especially in the presence of our young ones,because that's how a drop of water (cheap lie) do becomes a mighty ocean (lies that's costly) Thanks

TATIME:
A CHEAP LIE?
Hmmmmmmmmm well my friend we humans see only things that's close to our sight but higher intelligent beings do foresee things from far distance.
A CHEAP LIE may look so minute but it becomes a disaster when the liar has something that's of high value to protect, e.g. position, status, job,marriage and so on. If it would cost the liar any of these, then it will lead to measures in covering up the SECRET or SCANDAL which usually leads to the killing of whoever knows the FACTS if such a person is a man/woman of integrity who can't be bought!
So how does it all begin? Just because of a CHEAP lie!
Genocide do becomes the ONLY solution to cover up a CHEAP lie from some highly respected government officials in the society! So my friends God sees far distance of the outcome of all things, that's why HE placed the same kind of punishment on all wrongdoings! Galatians 5:19-21 compared to Revelations 21:8 Thanks

Oga forget all these brainwashing. Fact is God is very ruthless, jealous and over zealous. A God that threatens with death and fire if you refuse to serve him. That's too egoistic yet his creations are suffering everywhere. Even the "good" ones. Innocent kids are starving in somalia and Ethiopia. Look at the crises in yemen and syria , look at the squalor and poverty in india and bangladesh. Mass shootings in america yet he refused to protect these kids. Look at the Nigerian plane crash of 2006 where innocent kids were destroyed yet this God folded his arms doing nothing. Kids who don't know their left from right or will he still call those ones sinners too?. The only excuse you religious ones can give is "there is a reason for everything" . Guy open your eyes well, something is wrong somewhere. Either he/she doesnt exist or he is just plain ruthless and wicked and deserves to have a taste of the hell he created. Great scientists like Hawkins and Einstein have doubted his existence with raw fact yet you chose not to accept .


See your pastors. Look at adeboye , some months back he visited a hospital filled with sick people. If he was genuine and real he would have healed one or two there and they recover instantly but no, he will rather chose to perform it on TV or during a church service where he must have arranged with them before the service and tell them what to do.
Look at his second one oyedepo. Asking for for first fruit and Shiloh sacrifice. I can tolerate adeboye but you see that oyedepo, he is ruthless (mind you I'm a winner worshipper myself). People dont have food to eat yet he will force money out of their pocket and tell them to surrender all their salary else they will die or be unfortunate will Ill luck. Every year na the same thing, this year you will do this , you will do that yet your life is still the same. Every Sunday na still the same prayer.

I've been to a street in Lagos where there were seven different churches in that street. If they weren't concerned about the money, this wouldn't be so.

Open your eyes.

ChiefAzubuike:
The most annoying one is the claim that sin no get different weight. How can a God give someone that told a cheap lie and someone that killed 1000 people the same punishment. Even we as human beings will punish them differently. If God truly exists up there then......

Assuming you are a wealthy man with hundreds of cars. some of the cars occasionally display false speedmeter, odometer, oil guage and sensor readings while
Other cars occasionally crash on people for no reason.
How would you handle them as a wealthy man who can afford to buy thousands of such vehicles? Which would you spare(& continue to use), the lying cars or the murderous ones?

XxSabrinaxX:
This is my first thread on NL. I've noticed how passionate people on these religion forums are when matters like these are brought. So i just felt like i should try my hand at debating on NL.

Hell is a horrible idea. If God truly thinks that our “freewill” based on a limited time on earth means most of us have to live in a “hell” forever, then
yes, he’s evil, and terribly insane.

hell is not an idea but a reality.
Even if God gives you an eternity, it makes no difference.
God is evil and insane for punishing sin? Hope the Government is insane for punishing rapists and child molesters.
It only takes 2 minutes to murder someone, why will the government sentence him to life in prison?

Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.However, i also want to add that if hell actually exists, then the cold truth is that ultimately, most of the human race is going there. Some Christians like to downplay this. It’s an undeniable fact if we applied Christian theology, there's really no debate.

it is a known fact that most of the world population are heading down to hell, not because God cannot save them but because they reject him and his help.

Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.This not only makes God evil, but portrays Satan as a smarter, more efficient presence amongst man, resulting in Satan winning his purpose over Jesus.
Jesus came to earth to save mankind. Judging by the kind of lives we live, i think its safe to say that God has been highly incompetent in making man see the truth.

you are insane! Do you expect God to force himself on anyone? The devil has lost already. Many people are been saved right now.

Who are the we?

Many are been saved on a daily basis through the gospel.
It is up to you to be saved or remain condemned in your sins.


Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

All these atheist ladies I am seeing here, are you in Nigeria?? I doubt! It'll be a thing of joy seeing a Nigerian-based lady reason so rationally like the op.

XxSabrinaxX:


THANK YOU!!

I came here to have a reasonable discussion but apparently that's not d case. I don't want to start a fight so am really restraining myself so i don't start hurting their feelings lol.

How can you even expect a reasonable discussion from people who believe in talking snakes and donkeys and other nonsense as real?

ChiefAzubuike:

Oga forget all these brainwashing. Fact is God is very ruthless, jealous and over zealous. A God that threatens with death and fire if you refuse to serve him. That's too egoistic yet his creations are suffering everywhere. Even the "good" ones. Innocent kids are starving in somalia and Ethiopia. Look at the crises in yemen and syria , look at the squalor and poverty in india and bangladesh. Mass shootings in america yet he refused to protect these kids. Look at the Nigerian plane crash of 2006 where innocent kids were destroyed yet this God folded his arms doing nothing. Kids who don't know their left from right or will he still call those ones sinners too?. The only excuse you religious ones can give is "there is a reason for everything" . Guy open your eyes well, something is wrong somewhere. Either he/she doesnt exist or he is just plain ruthless and wicked and deserves to have a taste of the hell he created. Great scientists like Hawkins and Einstein have doubted his existence with raw fact yet you chose not to accept .


See your pastors. Look at adeboye , some months back he visited a hospital filled with sick people. If he was genuine and real he would have healed one or two there and they recover instantly but no, he will rather chose to perform it on TV or during a church service where he must have arranged with them before the service and tell them what to do.
Look at his second one oyedepo. Asking for for first fruit and Shiloh sacrifice. I can tolerate adeboye but you see that oyedepo, he is ruthless (mind you I'm a winner worshipper myself). People dont have food to eat yet he will force money out of their pocket and tell them to surrender all their salary else they will die or be unfortunate will Ill luck. Every year na the same thing, this year you will do this , you will do that yet your life is still the same. Every Sunday na still the same prayer.

I've been to a street in Lagos where there were seven different churches in that street. If they weren't concerned about the money, this wouldn't be so.

Open your eyes.

You're an individual with a open heart my friend, and that's highly commendable.
My people used to say "if trees falls on trees causing a blockade,the only solution is to start picking it one by one from the top"
There is TRUE Christianity where all your questions will be adequately answered. But false religious groups claiming Christians has caused a lot of anguish and pains on innocent souls.
Let me start by telling you that whenever you hear someone labelling himself as PASTOR,PROPHET,GO,REVEREND,FATHER and so on in religion it simply means teacher of God's word. Jesus condemns such acts so THEY'RE NOT CHRISTIANS! Matthew 23:8
As for the evil we're experiencing all around, i think it's unfair to blame someone who have already warned us regarding all these before!
If you're the landlord of a very big estate,you knows how everything was constructed and you give each tenant a document as in manual of how to live peacefully in your estate. Will it be fair enough for the tenants to start blaming you for mishaps cause by their refusal to live by the instructional manual?
We can only blame God if just 30% not even 70% of earths inhabitants are following HIS instructions, you and i can testify to the fact that 99.9% of earths inhabitants are doing things their own way,so why blame God?