Joagbaje:

That's my point, one portion says God did it, another' portion says Satan did it. The writing were based on the understanding of the people.


1 Chronicles 21:1
Chapter 21
1 And Satan stood up against Israel , and provoked David to number Israel.

2 Samuel 24:1
Chapter 24
1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Question is , who actually made David do it. Was it God or the devil. This should help us in understanding scriptures and prophecies . People wrote according to their personal level of understanding .

I think God, as an adversary

ithink the point being made by pastorChris(at least he managed to make this one) is that most of our general sicknesses are caused by THE devil, and that God does not want you sick. Most of the passages quoted 'against God' are judgement passages. God can act as a Judge, satan is not a judge, that's the perspective.

2 ESDRAS 15 CHAPTER 5-7

5 Behold, saith the Lord, I will bring plagues upon the world; the sword, famine, death, and destruction.

6 For wickedness hath exceedingly polluted the whole earth, and their hurtful works are fulfilled.

7 Therefore saith the Lord,

buzugee: 2 ESDRAS 15 CHAPTER 5-7

5 Behold, saith the Lord, I will bring plagues upon the world; the sword, famine, death, and destruction.

6 For wickedness hath exceedingly polluted the whole earth, and their hurtful works are fulfilled.

7 Therefore saith the Lord,

So whatz your point

newmi:
So whatz your point

pointer sisters

buzugee: Chief Jo, at this point we are just going to have to agree to disagree. you are strong in your conviction and i am strong in mine. thats what its all about. we edify each other and learn from each other and enjoy each others perspective.

I see your point . I hope you can see mine that prophets may not be perfect in their doctrine and ideology. Even under the influence of Gods spirit.

How possible is it that scriptures sometimes does seem that God is playing double standards you know from one source we realize how that God is the origin of of some good stuff while at the same time we'll see Him suggesting otherwise, why is that so someone would ask?

Joagbaje:

I see your point . I hope you can see mine that prophets may not be perfect in their doctrine and ideology. Even under the influence of Gods spirit.

This puts the credibility of the Bible as the inerrant word of God at stake.

@Joagbaje
What really is the difference your understanding of darkness from scripture and that put forward by buzugee

There's no difference in Understanding, just difference in interpretation and THE CROOK has already said THE ACTS in the OLD TESTAMENT were WRONGLY ATTRIBUTED to GOD just to ENSURE PASTOR CHRIS remains right...

Kay 17:

This puts the credibility of the Bible as the inerrant word of God at stake.

Trust me.. I've read worse from the hypocrite..

Sickness can never come from God because He came to give life and give it more abundantly. It is the devil who came to steal, kill and destroy. This is what the immutable word of God says.

It was the action of Adam that brought sin and sickness into the world. That is why Jesus Christ was flogged so that by His stripes, we are healed.

Anyone who wishes to live under the bondage of the lie that God give sickness is free to live under that bondage. As for me and my household, we will believe the truth and live under the truth.

buzugee: i beg to differ with pastor Chris

EXODUS 4 VS 11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

DEUTERONOMY 28 VS 61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

DEUTERONOMY 28 VS 59[b] Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.[/b]

@postr,i love you plenty.i am adding deut.32.39 where God said i kill and i keep alive.i wound and i heal..

stagger: Sickness can never come from God because He came to give life and give it more abundantly. It is the devil who came to steal, kill and destroy. This is what the immutable word of God says.

It was the action of Adam that brought sin and sickness into the world. That is why Jesus Christ was flogged so that by His stripes, we are healed.

Anyone who wishes to live under the bondage of the lie that God give sickness is free to live under that bondage. As for me and my household, we will believe the truth and live under the truth.

This drunkard, you're still on NL?

Pastor was right on what he said. During the old, God dealt with man directly. In those days if a man sin against God, he will be punished by God with sickness until Jesus came and amend the law by paying with his blood. Now God is not responsible for ur sickness, ur sin and Satan is (stop judging NT with OT).

Goshen360:

Joagbaje, Please you need to disinfect yourself from what Chris ever taught you and start afresh. Buzugee had given you the best scriptures ever.

cant believe u're talking sides with bazugee, who quoted the old testament all thru! I thut u were a crusader of new testament, especialy in ur theory of the abolishment of tithe, which u vehemently claimed was part of the old testament and no longer relevant.
By the way, ur coment shows in depth hatred for pst chris, thats pathetic!

DIG GOD CHANGE? THE GOD OF THE OT AND NT, are they different.. Maybe, like y'all claim, his rules changed. Did HE change? IS HE not the same GOD that committed those actions in THE OT?

i have told u guyz that pastor chris is a member of freemason i mean a member of lumanati that is why he said masturbation is never a sin before God, every one should feel free and continue with it. Evil. Another man i loved before was TB joshua but God of heaven have started exposing him and chris. Before the end of this year we will hear more havock frm them.

Sometimes I wonder what our youths are thinking about. No luv for d country, no luv for God and His words, insulting men of God here and there. God is not responsible for sickness! Ur sin and Satan is. The first Adam brought sin and d punishment is sickness and death. The second Adam "Jesus" brought salvation and the reward is eternal life (sickness is not from God now and dats Y sickness runaway whenever it heard in Jesus name".

nkemmu: @postr,i love you plenty.i am adding deut.32.39 where God said i kill and i keep alive.i wound and i heal..

So why has God not killed you yet? Are you that righteous?

First and foremost it is very important to understand that in translating the bible from Hebrew/Greek were it was originally written to English, a lot of meaning of verses and passages were seemingly lost because of the great limitations and clumsiness of the English language. That is why many pastors today refer to the original text sometimes when they preach. For example greek has 3 words for love which are eros, philio and Agape and they mean love for wife/lover, love for friends/pals and God's love respectively. But English just calls them love leaving you to find out on your won what the kind of love is about. This is vital to understanding thhe @op's post. If you go back and read those scriptures that someone quoted above in the original Hebrew text, you will be shocked. It actually talks abouut God allowing those sickness and diseases come on those people, not God putting it himself. A typical example was when the Israelis were about to leave Egypt. God asked them to sacrifice an animal and spread the blood on their doorpost and said the angel of death will pass that night and any house not having the blood will loose their first born. The angel of death was a demonic being. A fallen angel that always want's to kill but God always restrains him. But that day, he wasn't restrained. God allowed him operate as judgement to Egypt. If God didn't restrain the devil, he will destroy everyone in one day. But he is restrained from acting. But at certain times, when men have become really evil, God 'steps aside' and the devil unleashes terror on men.

God does not do evil. God is Love. Evil came from satan. From the day satan rebelled, evil came into the universe. Sin is evil not good. It is not in the character of God to do any act of evil. Anything God does is a good and a blessing. That is why if you study jewish customs till today, you will discover that they believe that poverty and sickness are from the devil and every one who follows God should never have them. That is what Moses taught them. That is why they were not sick once throughout their forty years sojourn in the wilderness. The disciples of Jesus asked him who committed sin that caused a man to be born blind in John 9:1. Acts 10:38 says God annointed Jesus and he went about doing 'good' and 'healing' all that were oppressed of the devil. Anyone that is sick is being oppressed of the devil because the devil is the originator of sickness.

God cannot use the devil's tool to train his children. No father does that. The principle is very simple. If you walk in disobedience to God, you go out of his his protective covering and then the devil can hurt you. As long as you are under God's protective covering, the devil can't touch you.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
nice post.. makes a lot of sense but under close inspection is pure bullshit..

WAS THE SCRIPTURE LYING WHEN IT SAID GOD CREATED THE EVIL? DID SOMEONE ELSE WRITE TEH BIBLE? Or should we throw away those verse from the BIBLE.. doesn't look good on God, does it?

It seems apparent to me that the main aim of religion in the last few decades has been to humanize (and therefore minimize God). Most mainstream faiths (mainly Christianity) have gone out of their way to ascribe human attributes ( Anger, Jealousy, Hate) to the very core nature of what God is supposed to be. It is unfortunate that religions would rather have a God they can describe and categorize rather than worship the 'the creator of the cosmos'.


For the sake of this argument, let us assume that the prerequisites that God must posses are Omniscience, Omnipresence, and omnipotence. If we all agree on this then the following points are unavoidable

1) God knows the entire events (Good or Bad) of the lives of every human being that has ever lived, who is alive today and who are yet unborn Ad infinitum.

2) God is Physically present at every stage of the life of all humans past present and future.

3) God then CHOOSES to do nothing when events like the holocaust or babies being born blind take place even when he has the power to stop them.


Most would like to believe that all Good things come from God, but I must assert that all Evil things also come from God.

(....and dont tell me the devil created evil)

@joagbaje: I think your theory is flawed. If you say people wrote the bible according to their understanding then...in the instance, where you quoted conflicting verses of where Satan and God inflicted Israel, then your stand on God being good and perfect is correct and Goshen360 and the others stand on God creating both good and evil is also correct Col 1:16...because you guys have decided to stick with the interpretations that benefits your arguments at this point in time...
But if you accept that all scripture is written by inspiration from God, you would have to accept everything, the bible says without leaving out some parts...
As for every other thing, I hope you guys all know that not everyone in or from a particular church will make heaven? Every christian brother or sister should be treated as one regardless of the denomination...if we are all practising christians, then love wouldn't be such a hard thing, would it? There shouldn't be competition amongst us as no one knows all which is the essence of fellowship with brethrens anywhere (even online)...Pastor Chris, Adeboye, Oyedepo, My Pastor etc...all these Men of God are not the absolute, the Bible is...so we can all learn from each other...

musKeeto: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
nice post.. makes a lot of sense but under close inspection is pure bullshit..

WAS THE SCRIPTURE LYING WHEN IT SAID GOD CREATED THE EVIL? DID SOMEONE ELSE WRITE TEH BIBLE? Or should we throw away those verse from the BIBLE.. doesn't look good on God, does it?

I just answered that above. God didn't create evil. Did you see any example of God creating evil in the book of Genesis? All we see in Genesis is God fixing things and turning evil to good not creating it. And everything God did was said to be very good. God is God. He doesn't have to try and look good to anyone. He is too big to be questioned by man. Understanding my post is for our own benefit, not God's. If you believe God is the one putting sickness on you, then why fight it? Why not allow it to be? Why go to the hospital to get help?

If God is the origin of sickness then trying to get treatment/medication will be fighting against his will! Don't you see that?

I dont know of any man that doesn't fall sick. By our human nature we are meant to fall ill sometimes. Even the strongest animals do. It sounds ridiculous to me that this has to be discussed under religion. Malaria, Typhoid, Headache, etc are consequence of our exposion to certain environmental factors. Cancer is mostly from our eating habit. we can go on and on. We should attribute sickness to ourselves, poor environment and government neglects more than any other reason. I have a younger brother who was sick of typhoid at least every six months, but since he travelled to Europe for four years now, he has never been sick, not even headache. Remove the so called multi millionaires from their comfort and expose them to the average Lagos environment, they will be lucky to survive more than a year.

I dont know of any man that doesn't fall sick. By our human nature we are meant to fall ill sometimes. Even the strongest animals do. It sounds ridiculous to me that this has to be discussed under religion. Malaria, Typhoid, Headache, etc are consequence of our exposion to certain environmental factors. Cancer is mostly from our eating habit. We can go on and on. We should attribute sickness to ourselves, poor environment and government neglects more than any other reason. I have a younger brother who was sick of typhoid at least every six months, but since he travelled to Europe for four years now, he has never been sick, not even headache. Remove the so called multi millionaires from their comfort and expose them to the average Lagos environment, they will be lucky to survive more than a year.[pre][/pre]

elampiro: I dont know of any man that doesn't fall sick. By our human nature we are meant to fall ill sometimes. Even the strongest animals do. It sound ridiculous to me that this has to be discussed under religion. Malaria, Typhoid, Headache, etc are consequence of our exposion to certain environmental factors. Cancer is mostly from our eating habit. we can go on and on. We should attribute sickness to our selves, poor environment, government neglects more than any other reason. I have a younger brother who was sick of typhoid at least every six months, but since he travelled to Europe for four years now, he has never been sick, not even headache. Remove the so called multi millionaires from their comfort and expose them to the average Lagos environment, they will be lucky to survive more than a year.

Actually, according to scientific facts, man is not supposed to fall sick or die. Science is still trying to find out why it happens because the human body has all the resources to fight any sicknes and to live forever. A man's body cells are completely renewed every 7 years.

There are sicknesses that have nothing to do with your environment. The human mind and spirit are key to why he falls sick, not enviroment. Steve jobs died of sickness with all his resources

edicolove:

Actually, according to scientific facts, man is not supposed to fall sick or die. Science is still trying to find out why it happens because the human body has all the resources to fight any sicknes and to live forever. A man's body cells are completely renewed every 7 years.

There are sicknesses that have nothing to do with your environment. The human mind and spirit are key to why he falls sick, not enviroment. Steve jobs died of sickness with all his resources

Hmm.. that's new...

edicolove:
I just answered that above. God didn't create evil. Did you see any example of God creating evil in the book of Genesis? All we see in Genesis is God fixing things and turning evil to good not creating it. And everything God did was said to be very good. God is God. He doesn't have to try and look good to anyone. He is too big to be questioned by man. Understanding my post is for our own benefit, not God's. If you believe God is the one putting sickness on you, then why fight it? Why not allow it to be? Why go to the hospital to get help?

If God is the origin of sickness then trying to get treatment/medication will be fighting against his will! Don't you see that?

lol.. u guys keep deluding yourselves.. Those verses I posted, are they GOD'S or not? simple question

edicolove, so why is there medicine?

I will like to see a copy of that scientific report that states man is not suppose to die. But you should know that even animals die. Animals are stronger than humans.

edicolove:

I just answered that above. God didn't create evil. Did you see any example of God creating evil in the book of Genesis? All we see in Genesis is God fixing things and turning evil to good not creating it. And everything God did was said to be very good. God is God. He doesn't have to try and look good to anyone. He is too big to be questioned by man. Understanding my post is for our own benefit, not God's. If you believe God is the one putting sickness on you, then why fight it? Why not allow it to be? Why go to the hospital to get help?

If God is the origin of sickness then trying to get treatment/medication will be fighting against his will! Don't you see that?

There are many verses in the Bible, whereby God gave direct instructions for destruction. God was said to cause confusion and therein conflict among the builders of Babel. He wiped out humanity in one single flood. This is clearly evil. Except if God is the standard of good and evil, and those change according to his mood.

buzugee: i beg to differ with pastor Chris

EXODUS 4 VS 11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

DEUTERONOMY 28 VS 61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

DEUTERONOMY 28 VS 59[b] Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.[/b]

ur busy recalln d account of disobedience people.......and never recountd why jesus came in da first place.am not pastor chris member but agrees with him on this one.if ur born again,wen ur sick,u can recieve ur healing but if ur filld with da holy spirit, u are not permittd to be sick.tx