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Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 1:04am On Jan 10, 2022
I guess a little bit of context might be warranted, aribisala0. This discussion is actually an extension of a previus discussion AjaanaOka and I had some time last year in which we interrogated a theory that Igbo language could have first disseminated into the sourthern Igbo-speaking regions before propagated to other regions and developing into its modern forms.

That said, you're correct that no human society survives without water, so there will always be a term for it. However, that isn't what our discussion is about (or better said, that isn't something we are interrogating).

Rather, what we are discussing is this: Language is not a logical phenomenon. It's a series of conventions informed by history, politics, sociology, culture, ecology, etc.

Because it is nothing more than a series of conventions, we can guarantee that there is always an extent to which terms can (and will) be displaced, because any sort of change or development among the aforementioned factors affects lexicon. So this isn't a discussion about whether or not the Ijaw have terms for "water". Rather it's a discussion about the factors that could have influenced the development of Ijaw language, leading to any number of innovations or displacement regarding the terms for "water".
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 11:17pm On Jan 09, 2022
AjaanaOka:
This 'Ama Onye Naabo' thing had better be deliberate trolling. I hope no one who understands and speaks Igbo takes it seriously. Who says 'onye naabo' for 'two persons'?

In what Igbo dialect is 'onye' ever used as a plural? Onye naabo. If you come from a speech area that says onye naabo instead of mmadu naabo, please indicate. Otherwise, what sort of terrible grammar is that?

I initially thought it started off as trolling, because the pseudo-etymology was provided first in the politics section, which we know is a hotbed of ethnic bashing and trolling. I'm suspecting now though that they may actually be taking themselves seriously, especially since it seems someone in politics section has claimed that "ama onye naabo" was the explanation given to Europeans by Bonny people (or something to that effect) at that time (early 1800s). Supposedly this explanation was provided to Captain Hugh Crow and should be available in his memoir. It isn't present in the copy that I have, so I'm still waiting for them to share their copy/copies so we can all see it. Anyhow, your point is correct. Even in the Ubani dialect, "onye" is a singular, and no well-meaning speaker would say "onye naabu" for "two persons".

AjaanaOka:
See this caveat right here? I've been ruminating over it since my southern entry hypothesis post. It's hard to ignore. Eastern Ijo dialects' words for 'water' are most likely to have been influenced by Igbo forms.

What I find interesting about this is that: The Ijo appear to have a very long history with water. If there is one word one wouldn't think they'd borrow or adapt from more landward people, it would be the word for 'water'. It would be almost like the Arabic word for 'sand' coming from Persian or Spanish.

Except maybe if upon the arrival of the Ijo in what is now the Eastern Delta from more westerly directions they found it already occupied (sparsely perhaps) by Igbo-speaking populations , and in the intermixing and Ijo supercession that followed, Igbo-influenced forms of 'water' slipped into Eastern Ijo.

In one of the papers of M Sowunmi (a paleobotanist I've mentioned in previous discussions) he briefly mentioned an early dry period (BCE era) when grassland extended into the Eastern Niger Delta and the mangrove swamp virtually disappeared. An agricultural people like the early Igbo-speaking peoples could have flourished in the Eastern Niger Delta at the time. Ijo ascendancy there in a later period may have been aided by the return of wetter conditions, the swamps and the mangroves, a geographical situation for which their ancient Aquatic culture is better suited.

This is at least something worth looking into.

All good points here. The well-developed aquatic culture and language would suggest that an already-occupied eastern delta swampland/mangrove would see no heavy Igbo-speaking influx into the region; certainly not enough to influence the beni/bini terms for water. We can also see that although more Ijaw-speaking communities use the bini/beni variants, there is much more phonetic diversity with the mindi/mendi/mengi/minji/mingi variants (mingi for short), perhaps suggesting a nearby "ground zero" for linguistic innovation. Eastern Ijaw lects also do not show evidence of the mingi variant being a synonym (or just another word for) bini/beni. For these communities, mingi is the only expression, and you can see it is heavily embedded in the rest of the aquatic lexicon, just as with bini/beni among their central/western Ijaw-speaking counterparts, perhaps indicating that borrowing likely did not occur.

All of this context taken into consideration suggests that the form was simply influenced; the sort of influence that might best be explained by early, pre-historical contact. Early southern Igbo-speaking communities being pushed out due to the changing ecology (grassland to mangrove) while the earliest of eastern Ijaw pushed their way in (as more wetlands developed), can reasonably account for the linguistic contexts we can empirically see in present day. Assuming this speculation holds true, the potential ratio of those early Igbo-speaking settlements relative to the incoming Ijaw-speaking settlements (as grasslands turned to wetlands) may have been enough to influence eastern Ijaw speech from that point forward. It's certainly worth looking into. Who knows. Perhaps an internal glottochronology study between western, central and eastern Ijaw lects might actually give us an estimated time of when this linguistic branching occurred for eastern Ijaw, which may consequently give us an estimated range for when the eastern delta might have begun being peopled by Ijaw-speaking communities.

1 Like

Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 8:41pm On Jan 08, 2022
Nmanma, ThickSharon123. This was such a nice discussion. I got to talk about some things I find interesting, even though we may not have entirely been on the same page. I appreciate the mental sciences. Pyschology, psychiatry, psycho-analysis, etc. It's not necessarily my forte, but I do enjoy reading those topics from time to time. Maybe some time in the future you and I could try to have an indepth discussion on what your forte. In particular, I am interested in the mental and social aspects that can prepare people for true nationhood and sovereignty. Especially us as Igbo people. Nigeria is just not it, but I don't think we are mentally prepared to do the needful to either change Nigeria or change some aspects of our own circumstance to give us breathing room, little by little. So I might like to pick your brain on what your thoughts are in that respect maybe some time in the future on another thread.
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 7:46pm On Jan 08, 2022
ThickSharon123, I see. So we were never dicussing the same thing to begin with. Here I was getting interested and excited, because I might have found someone else to have these sort of discussions with. Anyhow, thank you for providing that clarification. In that case, we do not need to continue the conversation, but I would like to take this opportunity now to ask a question of my own.

I am particularly interested in this quote below. You again re-affirm the claim that Crow provided the etymology of amanyanabo as "A Land of Two Kings", and you restate Bonny and Opobo's historical, non-slave, Igbo-speaking origins.

ThickSharon123:
What do you think the judge would do if he saw that, King People of blessed memory had bluntly told Crow that Amayanabo is "a land of two kings"? You ask yourself that question and make the decision here. And there are more overarching evidences that can't be disputed when it comes to the Bonny and Opobo proud Igbos territory.

For the record, I do not dispute the historical, non-slave, Igbo-speaking origins of Umu Afo Ubani. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I am an Ngwa man and our traditions assert that Ngwa people are part of the founding legacy of Bonny. Bonny oral traditions also show that Ijaw people came in contact with Ngwa people in what is now Ndoki before migrating in their company to Bonny. So no matter which tradition you choose to take seriously and no matter how anyone tries to change things, there is no denying the ancestral, non-slave Igbo-speaking founding legacy of Bonny. So this is not my concern. There should be no reason for us to revisit statements like this between ourselves going forward because we are both in agreement here.

Now the question I would like to ask is with regards to the first part of the above quote where Crow is claimed to have provided the etymology of amanyanbo as "A Land of Two Kings". I enjoy the study of language, language reconstruction, language development and preservation. So of course, something like this would certainly interest me, because it gives an insight into the past. I have a full-text digital copy of Crow's memoir (Memoirs of the Late Captain Hugh Crow of Liverpool). I've read it several times in the past and in the interest of our current discussion, I've re-read it again over the past few days. Regrettably, I did not note anywhere in the memoir where Crow provides an etymology for the expression "amanyanabo". Yes, he has a few chapters where he discusses Bonny, and one chapter in particular where he discusses the government, but no mention of amanyanabo or a translation/etymology of the expression.

So my question now is sort of a question and sort of a request.

In effect, are we both reading the same memoir? If not, please pass along or share the copy that you have. I can just as easily share mine from my DropBox, if it helps. I have a DropBox for Ngwa, Igbo and general Lower Niger language, culture and history documents that I have been actively maintaining and publicly sharing with others for nearly a decade now. Anyhow, I would like to get the chance to store your copy in my DropBox as well as read it, so I can see Crow's discussion of the amanyanabo historical context, the etymology he provides, as well as his notes on what he observed (or what he may have been told) that led him to provide such an etymology, as I am interested in topics and information such as this.
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 6:50pm On Jan 08, 2022
ThickSharon123, so it seems you’re both dismissive of the role of etymology, but then choosing to pick it up when it suits you. Let me show two quotes from you here.

ThickSharon123:
And for the etymology of languages, that isn't a necessary tool that breaks down the Amayanabo issue.

In this quote here, you say that etymology not a tool for decomposing the historical context of the amanyanabo institution.

ThickSharon123:
Amayanabo in Crows or is it another author book, was said to be the "Land of two kings" it wasn't the Igbo defenders that made that.

In this quote here, you then turn around to say that Captain Hugh Crow provided an etymology for “amanyanabo”, by saying that he, in the book he authored, gave a translation of “Land of Two Kings”. In other words, you turn around to accept the role of etymology, specifically the etymology that is claimed to have been provided by Crow, as a necessary tool for discussing the historical context of amanyanaboship.

From my perspective, engaging in this conversation, you are in effect dodging any attempt to critically examine the claimed “ama onye naabo” etymology and are simply accepting it as an indisputable factoid. Here I thought this conversation was about examining its linguistic justifications (which is the purpose of a discussion of etymology), but it seems you are sidestepping that in order to discuss something else entirely.

So please clarify, if this discussion is no longer about etymology (which is what we started with), then what is it about? If we are no longer interrogating the justifications of one etymological interpretation against another, then what are we discussing here?

It is my belief that we will unknowingly end up not being on the same page, if we don’t clarify what our actual conversation is supposed to be about. Because I will be under the impression that we are discussing one thing (etymology), while you are under the impression that we are discussing something else (apparently, not etymology, judging by your latest post).
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 11:18am On Jan 08, 2022
Igboid:
ChinenyeN, you claim to be an academia, I double dare you to provide one Colonial document linking Bonny or Opobo to your Ijaw( Jos-people).
ChinenyeN:
I was among the first, if not the very first person to provide detailed AND VERIFIABLE synopsis of oral traditions in the Lower Niger that show that Igbo-speaking communities were present in Bonny before the Portuguese arrived, thereby predating the slave trade. Most of what you see here on NL is a repeat of what I shared over a decade ago when most Igbo people here were completely uninformed about the historical, cultural and linguistic relations in the eastern part of the Lower Niger.
ChinenyeN:
I come from a community that has oral traditions supporting our indigenous, non-slave, Igbo-speaking presence in Bonny and Opobo. There are oral traditions from Ijaw that verify Ijaw-speaking people coming into contact with Igbo-speaking people in Ndoki area before migrating to Bonny which further supports the presence of indigenous, non-slave, Igbo-speaking people in Bonny.
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 9:54am On Jan 08, 2022
So I'll just go ahead and respond to specific things concerning language and some history, and leave the other things that I am not sure of, because I don't know what you're getting at with those. I'll just wait for a better understanding before I comment. As for the specific things I will respond to now...

ThickSharon123:
Okay, as a simple fact why is it that only in Nembe (which is Igbo speaking or bilingual too) and Bonny and Opobo, we do have the titleship called Amayanabo. And not in all Ijaw clans as some Ijaws posit, grabbing the word in its entirety.

These title is only found in so-called Ijaw speaking clans which bluntly speak Igbo. But not in all Ijaw clans, not even in the central Ijaw area in Delta? It begs the question.

I'm not certain where you're getting this from. The amanyanabo institution exists in communities that are both Ijaw and Igbo-speaking (such Bonny and Opobo) as well as communities that speak only or primarily a dialect of Ijaw (such as Kalabari, Bile, etc). But to answer your question about why you may not see amanyanabo in all Ijaw communities, it is actually well established that amanyanabo is a recent institution. It is called "modern Ijaw kingship" for a reason. As a recent institution, it was absent in many Ijaw-speaking communities even up to the 19th century. It is similar to how ezeship was not common in many Igbo-speaking communities until the colonial era, hence why many communities did not get their first eze until well-after the warrant chief era. So yes, not all Ijaw communities had an amanyanabo, just like how not all Igbo communities had an eze.

ThickSharon123:
If you are a person of logic, you'll know intonation or a breath of words doesn't really count as a collective of word construct. If it did, the professor's from the start who made their findings, Crow and the likes would have objectively used such parameters to conclude that the Bonny and Opobo are related to this Jo men who leave in the creeks as they make their record to the letter.

No one said that a breath is a word construct. Perhaps you are not actually understanding how phonetics is an important part of linguistics. A full word is not all there is in studying language. Phonetics plays a central role in methodologies and techniques such as glottochronology. Phonetics plays a central role in the reconstruction of proto-languages. So I hope you are not misunderstanding things. It's not just about words, it is also about understanding the monopolization of sound (i.e. phonetic conventions) within a given language. You need such an understanding to investigate/interrogate etymologies.

ThickSharon123:
For example in Crows book, Mmiri is water in Igbo, Nembe, Opobo and Bonny call it MMgi I presume. So, with what you've just given there's a link to these city states as in connection to Igbos, right?

I'm not quite sure where to begin with this, because it is almost as though you're not seeing how linguistics is a wholistic discipline. You don't just look at two words that either look or sound the same in your head and then throw out a conclusion. In both this post and in a previous post I made, I stated that you need to understand the (tonal, phonetic, grammar) conventions within a language group and understand the language conventions within a corresponding language group in order to identify whether something is a loan word, a true cognate, or independent innovation. And you will need to also justify a proposed etymology that takes these various factors into consideration.

In this particular example you present with the term "water", we can actually get a sense of a potentially shared etymology from a far older, proto language within the Niger-Congo family. Let's examine the linguistic features of the various terms for "water" between the Igbo and Ijo lects.

In Igbo, water is rendered variously as mmiri, mmili, mili, miri, mini and muri. The tone structure and phonetics for these is somewhat diverse. For example, the Ukwuani and Onicha will both say "mmili", but Onicha will render it with a HHM tone structure, while Ukwuani has been recorded as rendering it with a HHL tone structure. There is however a general consistency of a HM tone structure across lects. Owerre will use the "mmiri" variant with two /m/ sounds, but nasalize the /r/. Ngwa, Echie, Asa, Ndoki, etc. will use the "miri" variant with only one /m/ and nasalize the /r/ or the "mini" variant. Ika has been recorded as using the "miri" variant with only one /m/ and not nasalizing the /r/. So overall, we see there is a great deal of variety in phonetics and tone.

Now in Ijaw, water is rendered with a similar sort of variety in phonetics and tone. You will see mingi, minji, mindi, mendi, beni, bini and mini. The phonetics actually make the list more varied than what you see here. For instance with beni, the /b/ is rendered as an implosive in central and some western Ijaw lects, and the central and western Ijaw use the beni form more consistently. The form transitions a bit from beni to mendi within the Nembe axis, before transitioning completely to mingi/minji in Kalabari and Ibani. Okrika has a mixture of the /me/ form from Nembe axis with the /ngi/ from Ibani axis. That's phonetics. As far as tone structure, there is some decent variation. For example, Kalabari and Ibani use all low tones minji/mingi LLL, most of central and western use all low tones for beni LL, and in a few examples will you see a LH tone structure (such as Okrika), and only a few will have all high tones when rendering beni HH. However, most of the Ijaw lects consistently favor a LL tone structure (mingi - eastern Ijaw, beni - central Ijaw).

Here is what we can deduce from this. We can probably suspect that the word for water might have a shared cognate from a long-forgotten proto-language period. There is enough consistency in proto-Igbo (mmidi) and proto-Ijaw (mbedi) reconstructions to deduce this potentially shared etymology. However, using clear and consistent phonetic and tonal trend in Ijaw that show the transition of beni -> mendi -> mingi. As well as a clear and consistent phonetic and tonal trend in Igbo that show the variations of mmili -> mmiri -> miri. It is easier to conclude that the Ijaw and Igbo terms ultimately developed or innovated separately.

One caveat I might add is that we can suspect a potentially later Igbo influence on the more eastern Ijaw variants who likely had greater historical contact with southern Igbo-speaking communities. We can deduce this as a later influence, because the beni variants far outnumber the mingi/minji/mendi/mengi variants. It seems reasonable to suspect that a supposed later Igbo influence triggered a phonetic innovation in the eastern Ijaw region that harmonized it in some way with southern Igbo variants. Examine the table below.


Central Ijaw    Southern Igbo    Eastern Ijaw Harmonizing
be ->           mi ->            me/mi
ni ->           ri (nasal r) ->  ngi/nji/ndi


The southern Igbo lects either say "mini" or "miri", and those that say "miri" pronounce it with a heavy nasal /r/, which is etymologically descended from an implosive /d/ sound according to linguists. If we take this proto-reconstruction (implosive /d/) into consideration, it suggests that this speculative harmonization might have actually occurred in pre-history and not modern day. There is a case to be made that Ijaw speakers (primarily using the "beni" variant) might have come into contact with some proto-Igbo speakers using the "midi" variant (implosive /d/), and that initial and ongoing contact might have facilitated the harmonizing effect in eastern Ijaw speech, while they maintained the characteristic low tones from the "beni" variant. Those proto-Igbo speakers who they came in contact with would survive on as the southern Igbo lects from "midi" (implosive /d/) to "mini" and "miri" (the nasal r).

So you see, the analysis of etymology is not something where you just look at two or more words and say "oh, those sound or look alike, they're probably related". To analyze actual etymology, you will need to look at and interrogate language trends and conventions, reconstruct and propose proto-language variants, analyze potential historical contacts, etc. In the case of the terms for "water", we can see that there might be the case of a shared etymology, but it cannot be denied that the terms developed independently and separately between the two language communities. Yet, we can also speculate on likelihood of some harmonizing in pre-history in the axis where the two language communities have known historical contact.

In fact, where is AjaanaOka? This could be another potential case study for interrogating the hypothesis of a southern entry for proto-Igboid.
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 5:06am On Jan 08, 2022
ThickSharon123, I’m going to need clarification on something. Is your latest post just you sharing your own thoughts and opinions in a way as to air out your own grievances against Ijaw people’s one-sidedness or are you bringing up certain talking points as if to say those are somehow my thoughts and opinions and you are countering them? I ask, because half of what is in your post is not anything I have ever said or claimed in my life. I hope you aren’t trying to put words in my mouth, because if that is the case, then I’m not sure the direction in which this conversation is headed now or if I would want to participate. I just want to give you the benefit of the doubt by asking directly.
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 1:44am On Jan 08, 2022
Now, let me respond to the second half of your post.

ThickSharon123:
I'll like to add have you read the ideas about Crow and the likes, which are pre-colonial papera justfiying the Igbo history of Bonny and Opobo in exemption from the fact IJAWS are trying to forcefully place a history in which the Bonny and Opobo's have no idea on.

I am a little confused by what you are attempting to get out of this. I come from a community that has oral traditions supporting our indigenous, non-slave, Igbo-speaking presence in Bonny and Opobo. There are oral traditions from Ijaw that verify Ijaw-speaking people coming into contact with Igbo-speaking people in Ndoki area before migrating to Bonny which further supports the presence of indigenous, non-slave, Igbo-speaking people in Bonny. I am aware of the memoirs of British explorers like Captain Hugh Crow, as well as the works of A. G. Leonard among others. They all provide evidence of indigenous, non-slave, Igbo-speaking lineages in Bonny, and I am even among the many who state so affirmatively here on NL.

Anyone who casually examines the ethno-linguistic history and traditions of origin in the area will find it near impossible to claim beyond a doubt that Ndoki and Bonny don’t have ancestral, non-slave, Igbo-speaking origins. If someone claims otherwise, then they are simply choosing to lie to themselves for the sake of cantankerous ethnic nationalism in Nigeria.

ThickSharon123:
Alagoa and the likes had fraudently maimed this people of their history, placeing the Ijaw history as foremost. But these people still held on to their mother tongue which is Igbo till date.

Ijaws had to further lie that the Igbo mother tongue was too strong for the weak Ijaw language to give that it overpowered the Ijaw tongue (don't tell me you'll be so little to believe such fairytales?)

I am among one of the earliest people on this platform to remark on the re-authorization period between the 1930s to the 1970s. See a quote by me in 2014 where I openly state such:

ChinenyeN:
Radoillo, the issues I discussed in the write-up focused primarily on the nationalistic approaches to Bonny history. I discussed the controversy and national tug-of-war politics between Igbo and Ijo over Bonny ethnic identity. Then I focused on the one-sidedness with which Ijo people have been treating Bonny history. Since the re-authorization attempts that began in the 1930s, Bonny-Ijo history has been told as if Bonny existed in isolation from the time of its establishment, up to the 20th century. I went over the different re-authorizations and touched on some of the logistical and chronological problems they created.

I even stated on this forum in April of 2021, that I believe Alagoa to have taken an active part in re-authorizing and fabricating a narrative that attempts to distance Bonny from Ngwa and Ndoki (and consequently from Igbo).

With all of this now out in the open, it should be clear that whatever basis by which you choose to believe that I have "exposed myself as Ijaw" is obviously so way off base that you if you were to be honest with yourself, you would have no choice but to correct what is a blatantly incorrect notion. I mean really, using your own logic for what "exposes me", it can be seen that I am actually quite the opposite of that. You will actually have to rework your logic to come up with new requirements and constraints in order to continue believing that I am Ijaw. At which point, that is out of my own hands. You (and anyone who follows suite) is actually choosing to go out of their way to believe whatever it is they believe. I will no longer get in the way of that, because I do not have the energy to continue going back and forth on this subject matter.
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 12:00am On Jan 08, 2022
Okay, done. I really enjoyed writing this. I really wish there was a platform with more Igbo people like me that want to engage in this sort of conversation. Anyhow, I tried to keep it as concise as possible, but I really wanted to make sure I explained everything.

ThickSharon123:
Based on the etymology idea you wrote about. I'll like to ask you a question, wouldn't inter-relation between tribes affect the overall tone of a given language. For example, Delta or Ika Igbos do not have the same intonation or verility of language like those in the south. So that doesn't hold any claim.

Even with the Ijaws themselves, there's a saying that western Ijaws do not particularly understand Eastern Ijaws, although they have almost the same verbal construct. (So, I do not know where you're going with this idea on etymology and verbal intonation as put)

This is actually a very common misunderstanding that many of our people have, and this is why you are saying that you don't know where I'm going with the role of tone in etymology. Our people seem to think it means we can dismiss tone in etymology, because it can vary from community to community. While there is some truth in the variation of tone from community to community, it is only a fraction of the whole picture. Our languages are tonal, meaning we rely on tones to create meaning. Because of this, we do not have the luxury to have random tones, nor do we have the luxury to have random tone conventions. In other words, consistency is paramount, both within and between speech communities. Anyone who studies tonal languages knows that even though languages can influence each other, we still need to interrogate how that influence occurred to know if it was a genuine cross-pollination, an already existing language feature in one or both languages or an independent innovation altogether. What this means for us is that it is a necessity to examine existing tonal conventions when discussing etymology of languages like ours. Phonetics (pronunciation of sound; not tone) is also equally as important as tone in identifying etymology. Grammar is also equally important as phonetics and tone.

I will give you a few good, hopefully obvious examples. They will all build on top of each other to show the importance of these factors.

Example 1: This should be easy to understand. If tasked with determining the etymology (or relatedness, to make it simple) of the following terms, you would depend primarily on the tones to help complete your task: oke, nke, uke, oke (yes, this second "oke" is intentional). Unless you are a mindreader (to know what I am referring to by the aforementioned terms), there is no way you would be able to group these words by their relatedness. You will undoubtedly require the help of existing tone conventions. So let's add those tone conventions.

H - high, L - Low, M - Mid

oke [HH], nke [LL], uke [LH], oke [LL].

Because we know the core tonal conventions in Igbo revolve around the root of a word, we can easily drill down and determine how to group the words above.

Oke [HH] will be grouped with uke [LH], because the /-ke/ root is a high tone.
Nke [LL] will be grouped with oke [LL], because the /-ke/ root is a low tone.

Now, let's move this to the next example.

Example 2: Let's say we change this up for you to still group the words. You should be able to easily do it now, if I don't provide you the tone, because you will do it by the meaning. If you were given the same tasks, but also provided the meaning, in this way:

oke (a reflective object)
nke (as in nke gi na nke m)
uke (brightness, sparkling nature of something)
oke (a share or portion)

You can easily group them into their relatedness. We can easily see that the first oke and uke are related. The nke and the second oke are related. But here is what we are not conscious of, as Igbo speakers. Our minds (because we know the meaning of the word) are also subconsciously comparing and contrasting the tones (because we cannot escape the reliance on this information). This is because as Igbo speakers, we are intuitively aware of the fact that most tone conventions revolve around the root word. We are already subconsciously looking at the high /-ke/ vs the low /-ke/. We don't even realize it.

Now, let's build on this with the third/final example. This will build on what we know about tone by adding phonetics and grammar to the mix.

Example 3: I'm going to give a few short sentences in various dialects.

Mbieri - hwu che m
Okocha - kwucha kye m
Onicha - fu nke m (someone correct me if I'm wrong on the Onicha one, but I think this is what I've heard)
Izii - pfu ke m

I'm ignoring a number of phonetics such as nasals, aspirants, etc. to avoid cluttering my point. The above expressions translate roughly as "use your hands to peel mine (like an orange or something)". This is actually a perfect example of how tone changes. The term I want you to focus on is "nke" (che, kye, ke). When they stand alone, they are all low tones, but when used in sentences within their respective dialects, the tones can and do change. It is at this point that we find it difficult to rely entirely on tones. Mind you, I only said entirely. We still need to rely on tones, because we want to decipher the statement. In other words, we need to know what the tone conventions are in the various dialects to help us determine what the words are within a given dialect, which will then help us determine etymology across dialects.

Izii for instance switches its ke from low to high in some sentences. Onicha, I believe, keeps its nke low. Mbieri can either be high or mid/step tone and Okocha, I am not certain of. I think I've mostly seen high tones where marked. Without knowing these conventions within the given dialects, we may find it difficult to decipher what is meant in that dialect. For all we know, the "che" for Mbieri could have been another verb, if we were not aware of Mbieri tone rules. Likewise for the other lects.

Now let me summarize. I've given three cascading examples that build on top of each other. Knowledge of how to decipher meaning and determine etymology transfers from one to the next. If you paid attention to the examples, you will note that tone is consistently present in all attempt to decipher meaning and determine etymology. No matter how hard we try, we cannot avoid the existence of tonal conventions within and between lects.

Now let me bring this back to point of this thread. We need both an understanding of tone conventions in Igbo and Ijaw (amanyanabo [HHHH] vs ama onye naabo [HHHMHLL]) as well as an understanding of the phonetic changes (implosive bo vs non-implosive abo) as well as the local grammar rules within a given language (how amanyanabo is actually a noun while ama onye naabo is not) to interrogate an etymology and provide a justification for why one etymological interpretation should be considered over another. If someone cannot justify their etymological interpretation in light of these (and other) factors, then it makes it difficult for someone else to be convinced that such etymological interpretation is correct. As it stands, the etymological interpretation of "ama onye naabo" makes no effort to justify itself against the known tonal, phonetic and grammar conventions of both Igbo and Ijaw. As such, someone like me remains unconvinced.
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 8:47pm On Jan 07, 2022
ThickSharon123, I am about to write a long post, but I am only doing so because I’m still giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Now, by the logic you have in your post above, you should actually consider me Igbo. Your basis for claiming or believing that I am supposedly not Igbo is as such:

1) I disagree with the claim that “Amanyanabo” has an Igbo etymology. Yet, I am the one who opened and led the most educative thread on NL regarding Igbo language etymology and proto-Igbo language reconstruction. ‘Til date, I have not yet opened such a thread for any other Lower Niger language, because I believe (as I’ve stated severally on NL) that members of a speech community should take responsibility for preserving and developing their respective languages. Anyone who knows what my interests are on this NL platform can easily assume that I would have created an Ijaw language and etymology thread by now if I were actually Ijaw. Go look at my NL profile. The language and etymology thread I created as well as my contribution in that thread outweigh the claim that I am “exposed as Ijaw” on the basis of a single disagreement about the etymology of “amanyanabo”. The thread and my contribution also shows that I am well-versed in language reconstruction and etymological decomposition, and have the capacity to interrogate others’ claims about a supposed etymology for a given word. On that basis, I remain unconvinced of the claims made by some Igbo people here on this platform regarding the expression “amanyanabo”. The tone structures for “amanyanabo” (HHHHH) and “ama onye naabo” (HH HM HLL) are so dramatically different that it’s impossible to justify the etymology, because tone is a key part of etymology decomposition for Lower Niger languages. The phonetics (the actual pronunciation of sounds) also don’t match. The “bo” in “amanyanabo” is an phonetic implosion that does not exist in surviving Igbo speech forms. Those who claim “ama onye naabo” as the etymology have yet to justify how a speech community goes from a non-implosive, low-toned “bo” in “naabo” to an implosive, high-tones “bo”. There’s more reasons, but I don’t need to enumerate them further. You should get the point by now that ultimately, those who claim “ama onye naabo” as the etymology have yet to justify such a claim in my eyes, because they have left so many glaring aspects unaddressed. So to use this disagreement to claim I have exposed myself as Ijaw does not match with your logic. Your logic HAS TO accept me as Igbo, if the contention here is about my beliefs, thoughts, opinions and knowledge of Igbo language etymology.

2) You stated that the Igbo people here went further to inform me about indigenous Igbo-speaking people in Bonny and Opobo. Yet, I come from Ngwa and this is a staple knowledge. In fact, I urge you to look as far back as you can on NL. I was among the first, if not the very first person to provide detailed AND VERIFIABLE synopsis of oral traditions in the Lower Niger that show that Igbo-speaking communities were present in Bonny before the Portuguese arrived, thereby predating the slave trade. Most of what you see here on NL is a repeat of what I shared over a decade ago when most Igbo people here were completely uninformed about the historical, cultural and linguistic relations in the eastern part of the Lower Niger. So if your logic is that I am denying indigenous Igbo-speaking people in Bonny and Opobo (thereby exposing myself as Ijaw), then you are now obliged to see that your conclusion is in error and thereby correct it, because I come from such community with oral traditions that claim indigenous representation in Bonny. So, you ultimately have to accept me as Igbo by your logic.

I know this might have been a lot to read, but I wrote it in good faith, because I don’t have a history with you here on NL, and because you claimed that you are not in the business of denying anyone of their Igboness so we should be able to have an honest conversation.
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 6:48pm On Jan 07, 2022
ThickSharon123:
No Igbo person would ever ridicule with the words nationalist like you, you've blown your cover and the more you talk the more it's blown the more.

You should perhaps go and look at my post history. I have a fundamental disagreement with both Igbo and Ijaw nationalists. In fact nationalism in Nigeria is cantankerous, and I have a fundamental disagreement with how it manifests in Nigeria. So don’t assume what my thoughts and beliefs are or even who I am on the basis of opinion regarding cantankerous nationalism in Nigeria. You can be an Igbo person and critique the system in Nigeria that facilitates the same cantankerous nationalism that we witness here on NL everyday. You can be Igbo and also critique the same people that willingly parade themselves as cantankerous nationalists. That is who I am and what I am doing.

Anyhow, I only responded because I don’t have a history with you here on NL. I’m willing to give you more of the benefit of the doubt in conversation. But I’m not interested in going back and forth with anyone who thinks they have the right to deny others of their Igboness. If that is what your position is, please clarify now so we can desist from conversations here on in. I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt now to state that you are not such a person.
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 1:57am On Jan 07, 2022
I’ve gotten bored with this back and forth. This nonsense is played out, and I am no longer interested in this convo with you Igbo nationalists. I’ll let my post history speak on my behalf. If you like, respond to this comment. Just know that I won’t respond back. In fact, if this is all you Igbo nationalists have to say to me going forward, just know that I also won’t respond back going forward. Enjoy talking to yourselves from here on in.
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 11:22pm On Jan 06, 2022
Igboid:
So you understand Ijaw! grin

Good to see you embracing your true self.

Are you not a Nigerian? We speak at least two or three languages on average. You can’t honestly be surprised that there are Igbo people that understand languages other than Igbo. Please, don’t waste my time here.
Culture / Re: Is Amanayabo An Ijaw Word? by ChinenyeN(m): 11:18pm On Jan 05, 2022
All indications suggest that the term amanyanabo is an Ijaw expression. If you understand Ijaw, you will see that the expression is easily decipherable.

Ama - town, country
Nyana - own, have
Bo - person

If you understand Ijaw syntax, you will see that the statement “ama nyana bo” is 100% syntactically and grammatically correct. There are also cultural factors that further indicate that it is an Ijaw expression. The Amanyanabo title is highly connected with the Canoe House (or War Canoe House) system, which is a distinct cultural feature of Ijaw. The Amanyanabo title is also only present in Ijaw-speaking communities.

The Igbo-speaking communities that neighbor Ijaw-speaking communities also have a similar (perhaps analogous) title/expression. You will hear either “Onyenweala” or “Mbichiriama” (and their variants). Onyenweala is more analogous to Amanyanabo, because you can see the direct translation between the concepts.

Onye - person
Nwe - own, have
Ala - land, country

Compare this to the decomposition of Amanyanabo provided above, we see evidence of two different language structures, both syntactically and grammatically correct for their given languages.

Now here is where things get interesting.

We know that the expression “Amanyanabo” is indisputably Ijaw. However, we also know that the institution is recent. All the accounts I have so far come across suggest that for most Ijaw-speaking communities, their first Amanyanabo appears between the 17th to 18th centuries; even later for many others. Bonny is no exception to this. This evidence of the late development of the Amanyanabo institution suggests that the expression itself may also be recent. It makes someone like me curious about the extent of cultural exchange between Ijaw-speaking communities and their Igbo-speaking counterparts in the eastern part of the Lower Niger.

I would not be surprised if such exchange facilitated the development of “Amanyanaboship” (as Charles Ogan put it). Granted, we (as of yet) have no established chronology for the Onyenweala/Mbichiriama institution, so we cannot speak about this potential cultural exchange with any sort of authority. However, I suspect it at least warrants some investigation and can likely upend some currently held academic notions regarding the social, cultural and political history of the Lower Niger.

1 Like

Culture / Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 7:02pm On Dec 23, 2021
Lol. I just realized that it is on this very thread where I voiced my displeasure with Ijaw intentionally reauthoring oral traditions. On yet another thread (https://www.nairaland.com/6510065/bonny-island-ndoki), I shared how I too am suspicious of Alagoa purposely reauthoring Bonny Ijaw traditions (go search my contribution on that thread and see for yourself). But Igbo propagandists here will easily skip my actual comments to claim that I am an Ijaw revisionist. Hehe. You people are obvious liars, but it’s okay. Because this has just proven that anyone with half a brain who goes through my post history here on NL will see the obvious lies told by you all and can easily conclude that you all are simply throwing tantrums like children.
Politics / Re: The True Identity Of Bonny/Opobo People Facts Versus Fiction by ChinenyeN(m): 4:56pm On Dec 18, 2021
Malawian:
Madam, you might have one Igbo parent and one Ijaw parent.
Yeah, this isn’t true. Anyhow, whether anyone on this platform likes it or not, I’m as proudly Igbo as it gets. They’ll just have to live with that simple fact.
Politics / Re: The True Identity Of Bonny/Opobo People Facts Versus Fiction by ChinenyeN(m): 3:49pm On Dec 18, 2021
ThickSharon123, going by your profile, you’ve only been on NL for the second half of this year. So I’ll extend some grace to you, since it’s possible that you do not know my comments on this platform. As an extension of that grace, I’ll encourage you to go and read through a thread called The Extent of Alaigbo right here on NL. Feel free to browse for my contributions on this topic, and feel free to see the timestamp for when those contributions were made. Thanks.
Politics / Re: Now It Has Been Established That Opobo & Bonny Are Igboland by ChinenyeN(m): 6:46pm On Dec 17, 2021
Fbisshit:
your mention was not accidental neither do I owe you any explanation.

And you should know by now that people have come to know your choice of topics and when I see one, I'll endeavour to mention you.
Thank you!

Lol. I’m still not understanding your intent or expectation here, so I’ll just leave you be.

Anyhow, @thread. There is another thread here on Nairaland where Igbo nationalists were arguing with Ijaw nationalists about the origins of Bonny. Go and look it up (The true extent of Alaigbo thread). If anyone wants, go and see my contribution in that thread, if you want to know my “choice of topics” on this subject. Some people on this platform obviously have short term memories.
Politics / Re: Now It Has Been Established That Opobo & Bonny Are Igboland by ChinenyeN(m): 3:34pm On Dec 17, 2021
Fbisshit:
Many lies have been told about bonny and opobo. Now the truth is about to be told and when the time is right all lies will be dismantled one by one and any force that wouldn't accept the truth will go down with the lies...

ChinenyeN
I’m confused as to why I’m being referenced here. Feel free to clarify at your own leisure, if you will. Thanks.
Culture / Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 5:31pm On Dec 16, 2021
Eastlandx:

Back to the long chronicles.

Lol,You be small pikin this ijo girl.
And try make sense for your comment abeg

Okay, so all you’ve got left for today is just back and forth over post length; nothing else e ji ba whne ochi? Alright, well this banter was entertaining while it lasted, I guess.
Culture / Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 4:46pm On Dec 16, 2021
Eastlandx:

Now you are trying to keep your irrelevant comments as short as possible.
LOOOLs

Nwanyi ijo. Asawana o Egberifa Izon, Yaa!!

LOOOOOLs
Lool. You’re really grasping at straws with your hypertension. Ma o buu ke, ya bu kaa. Lol. I di l’ishi onwu ma o dinuu ke ng’idabamarna gh. cheesy

At this point now, I’m just intrigued and wondering how you even managed to lie to yourself like this. Mgbamgba erne nkoro gh for real, but it’s okay. Ba m whne ochi nwanne lei; ma turu ndu manu weee. Hehe.
Culture / Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 4:12pm On Dec 16, 2021
Eastlandx:
Giving myself Hypertension?
Iyasikwa.
Read my comments and read yours, I'm not the one who spent time Writing Epistles and chronicles to Convince someone that I'm Igbo.


Asawana Egberifa izon, yaa!!

Loool. Please, everyone who has interacted with me on NL knows this is my writing style. You’ve made no points with this. Next statement. Ba m whne ochi la o ma mma. Keep me entertained.
Culture / Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 3:41pm On Dec 16, 2021
Eastlandx:

Yes we are all Igbo but Woman, you are not Igbo, you should be proud of Your ijo Ethnic group.
This Impersonation will not help you in any way.

Lol. You’re fighting an uphill battle. My post history shows that I am both very much Igbo and a man (most names are unisex in Ngwa, if you don’t know). There is really no chance that you have here, and it’s amusing. You’re really giving yourself hypertension over this. It’s unfortunate how much you’ve indoctrinated yourself with your own ideals that you are spending countless hours lying to yourself and being angry with someone who isn’t angry with you (a.k.a me).

Years of “Igbo bu Igbo” and “Igbo bu otu” knee-jerk reaction has culminated into this sadness. All I really need to do is kpooru; di d’ele, because you’re doing this to yourself. Nwanne, free yourself from the shackles of your own self-indoctrination.
Culture / Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 2:34pm On Dec 16, 2021
Eastlandx:

Childish & Typical,you think if you continue regurgitating that adulterated ngwa dialet that may be one day we will accept that you are igbo.
If you Ijaws failed woafully at your repeated lies becoming the truth as regards bonny & Opobo is it at this one you will succeed?
Learner.
Typical of you people on this platform. You people think you are the “real Igbo”. Sorry to tell you, but there’s nothing like real Igbo or adulterated Igbo, my guy. We’re all Igbo here. Please don’t make yourself out to look unnecessarily foolish this day. It’s sad. I di l’ikohnu nkohnu l’ezi.

1 Like

Culture / Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 7:34am On Dec 16, 2021
Eastlandx:
Continue FOOLING YOURSELF.
Kutu jii. Otherwise, o ga-adi ka i na-ekwu maka onwe gi. O bughi m.
Culture / Re: 8 Historical Reasons Why Ijaw claim to Ndoki Is Baseless. by ChinenyeN(m): 4:08am On Dec 16, 2021
Eastlandx:
How no one saw all this Red flags littered her back then Surprise me.
I maala whne agu? O nu m la i maa ta o bu la nkohnu ndi ikohnu gh. Nsogbu adighi. O ga-adiri Igbo na mma, but you, maybe not so much. cheesy
Politics / Re: The True Identity Of Bonny/Opobo People Facts Versus Fiction by ChinenyeN(m): 4:00am On Dec 16, 2021
Loooool. So dedicated to your smear campaign against me, but it's wasted effort for you people. Anyone who goes through my post history will see how important Igbo language, culture and history has been to me. I'm as Igbo as they come. Lol. I’m obviously a proud Igbo since my aka oru gbasara okwu la omelala Igbo is readily apparent on this platform, especially in the culture section. I care about my Igbo people too much to leave them at the mercy of nde nnu la unu; nde we mgbamgba erne la agba chakom.

It's okay though. Igbo ga-adi without you; Igbo ga-aka mma sef. Lol.
Politics / Re: Ndigbo: Pride Goes Before A Fall by ChinenyeN(m): 4:44pm On Dec 10, 2021
IDENNAA:
Who is Ubani reuniting and reconciling with ?

There was a civil war in Bonny some time ago that caused people to move away and establish Opobo. It’s been some bad blood between Bonny and Opobo since then, but overtime that bad blood has dwindled. The reunification was between the Bonny and Opobo communities to overcome their separation during the civil war crisis an in its aftermath.
Politics / Re: Ndigbo: Pride Goes Before A Fall by ChinenyeN(m): 4:16pm On Dec 10, 2021
Eastlink:
Shifting the goal post. Ibani na madhu in a thread where a serial Ijawlandgrabber opened for a different intention.
Loool. Ihe nke a ga na-ato ochi ruo mgbe e bighi ebi. So an Igbo-speaking person can no longer congratulate other Igbo-speaking communities in their attempts at reconciliation and reunification. Ewuo.

Anyhow, my post in that thread still stands. I for one am glad that Umuafo Ubani took the first real efforts towards reunification in 2011. O ga-adiri Umuafo Ubani na mma. Ibani na madu, o ga-adiri unu na mma wooo.
Politics / Re: Ndigbo: Pride Goes Before A Fall by ChinenyeN(m): 3:59pm On Dec 10, 2021
Lol. It’s because you don’t know the meaning and origin of the expression “Ibani na madu” that you think you’ve come across some revelation.

“Ibani na madu” is simply how Ngwa and Ndoki used to greet Bonny and Opobo people back in this day. Lol abeg this is too funny.

I’m here congratulating Umuafo Ubani in their attempts at reconciliation and reunification, and you’re upset. Reconciliation and reunification is a good thing. Or is it that you don’t want Opobo’s Igbo-speaking influence to continue spreading through Bonny? It sounds very suspicious to me that you would want to block that.
Politics / Re: Ndigbo: Pride Goes Before A Fall by ChinenyeN(m): 3:25pm On Dec 10, 2021
IDENNAA:
Oga , keep quiet , for once! You know deep down in your heart nobody is obsessed about you. You think too much of yourself....gbafuo, biko....lol
Ahn ahn. I ga-ekwe ka m gwuritu egwu with these people? O bughi ihe niile a na-e-take seriously kwa n’uwa a.

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