Onlytruth:

Oh I understand your position very well. The people you are debating just don't get it. 

I was thinking exactly the same thing just before you said it.

When characters like gadogado come here to yarn dust, I wonder whether they have actually sat down to look carefully at how this world has evolved through time.

It all began in Africa, and I can best my last dollar that it will end in Africa.

And while we are at it, Africans always influenced the history of this world, one way or another.  I won't say more than that.

Why don't you focus on the argument being made and intellectually argue a point as opposed to attacking my personality and "people like me" we're not arguing about THEORIES or evolution which are controversial to say the least. we're talking about the AFRICAN's INABILITY TO BUILD A STABLE AND PROSPEROUS SOCIETY/ENLIGHTENED CIVILIZATION on his own (without Arabs and Europeans) and whether this is caused by a lack of intellectual capacity as implied by Friedman (The wheel hadn't been invented in parts of Africa by the 19th century) Take your theories of evolution elsewhere.

sage:

Dude you are talking rubbish of the highest order. Complete unrivalled nonsense. It is a mere wish to think that a "black race" exists. No wonder you came here with a phony 17th century argument

Why the harsh tone? you that began supporting my premise, talk about being a flip flopper!! guess you'd make an excellent politician. Let me put it this way, people that live in Africa from the tropic of capricorn all the way to the sahara share the same climate, 2-3 seasons in a year as opposed to full four seasons in Europe etc. If as they say people develop morphological adaptations to enable them cope with their environments then i'd hasten t say that blacks )especially bantus) with features like wide nostrils etc are the same race or family of people (since you dislike the word race)
second point is the linguistic similarity as well as cultural that exist among African groups, like I said, Africans/blacks are the same "race" with a high degree of internal diversity, to claim race doesn't exist is senseless. Even if the Ashanti and Yoruba never came into contact with each other, they would share many more physical, cultural and linguistic similarities to Yorubas than to the French or Italians. FACT.
The similarities are glaring, from Haiti to Zimbabwe to Nigeria to Senagal, you're all very similar and in the exact same situation (INABILITY TO BUILD A STABLE AND PROSPEROUS SOCIETY) These are the facts, any country in the world today that has black dominated government is a poverty stricken downward spiraling state regardless of the continent.

@sage Im not in anyway against the "black race" im at least 60% black. So that assertion is senseless. All im asking is what does the evidence suggest about the relative mental development of Africans.
Also, if you believe that theres no such thing as race, then you're living in lala land. Africans present a monolithic group if you compare to other groups. In other words, Africans have more in common with each other than they do with European or Asian groups. You're saying technically theres no such thing as race, but i think there is race but each race has a varying degree of intra racial variance and relative diversity. Saying race doesn't exist is wishful thinking. There are too many similarities in physical, cultural, linguistic aspects that Africans share with each other. So you can't outrightly ignore that. Africans are a monolithic group with a high degree of internal diversity, this diversity does not negate the fact that Africans are one race.

bgees:

Having a sense of organization and intelligence are two different things. I agree we lack the first as seen in the Africa's development today.

WRONG, having a sense of organization is a form of intelligence because organization suggests rationality, i suspect you're looking at organization or the way i used it with a simplistic lens. organized behavior includes being able to plan ahead among many other things

sage:

You didnt answer the question

When Europeans were backwards and behind Asia, the Middle East and North Africa, where they inherently less intelligent than people from those places?

Simple! Europeans fell from glory so in comparison to their initial attainment of enlightenment, they became ignorant, thats comparing the two stages in their history. Africa never had the attainment of enlightenment at no point in time, so nothing to lean a comparison against. Its one thing to rise and fall and in their case rise again unlike the Mongols who only had a rise and fall. But to never ever rise in the history of humanity is something quite different. What has subsaharan Africa ever contributed to the advancement of humanity??

Those who have run out of things to say are claiming the thread/post is dead. Of course, you'll say that when you have been thoroughly thrashed and proven wrong!! The fact is, just accept your deficiencies and learn how to defeat them. Someone said the lack of protein in the African diet "historically" is responsible for the lack of intelligent. So I advise you to start consuming as much protein as possible.

ezeagu:

So your answer to all this is intelligence? So what "European mixture" do the people of Equatorial Guinea, whose economy has a much higher income than Indonesia and Malaysia, have?

Go to malabo (the capital of EG) and compare their level of infrastructural development with Kuala Lampur or Singapore or Bangkok or Jakarta or even "i dare to say" Burma. The difference will be stark clear. When I talk about economic development im referring to "WHATS ON GROUND" not meaningless arithmetic (dividing national GDP by population to get per capita GDP) thats useless, it means nothing, go to EG and the slums you'll see will blow your mind!! Whats on ground?? how diverse and sophisticated are their markets and economy as a whole?? how about their infrastructure?? is it adequate? how about human services like education and health facilities?? what is the general standard of living for its citizens? It has about 700,000 population wise, compare that to countries with small populations like Bahrain and Oman then compare their standards.

sage:

I agree

environment was probably the biggest factor. Even Europeans used to be like savages before

So what you're actually saying is environment is what makes africans less intelligent not some sort of natural inclination to being dumb right?

ezeagu:

Nigeria did not start at the same level as Asian countries, they started like Yugoslavia, where is Yugoslavia today? Most Asian countries were not colonised, and if the were, like Korea, it was from a culture that is similar to them, you cannot tell me after slavery, colonisation and then manipulation, that Nigeria started at the same level, take your one sided reasoning to dedicated websites (there are many).

Nigeria started with malaysia and singapore, where is malaysia today or even indonesia? how about countries like thailand? where were they in 1960, they were at the same level as most African countries in terms of socio-political and economic development, where are they today

The point Im making is, collectively as a group, Africans constitute the least intelligent people on the globe. In contrast, Africans are some of the best athletes in the world. There are obviously going to be exceptions to the rule (putting a Nigerian student in a class with Japs and Brits) but this does not in anyway negate the fact that we are naturally disorganized which in my opinion is a component of lack of intelligence. We also lack other components of intelligence such as foresight.

Nigeria started at the same level with Asian countries, as far as economic indicators but because they're more intelligent, they have grown to supersede. Look, the examples of Africas lack of brain power is evident, you see it daily. So why deny it?

sage:

I have to disagree with you though on this

I dont think Africans are less intelligent at all. There are many reasons why Africans lag behind which are self-inflicted but it has nothing to do with intelligence

If you put a Nigerian student with Japanese and British students he would do just as well

Sure, you can teach an African something and he'll be good at it, you can train an animal in something and it'll be good at it but the question is, was the african able to teach himself? thats the question, coming up with your own stuff that reeks of intellectual ability like inventing a car for example. SO far, on this whole thread, people have been able to come up with bronze casting as peak african invention and they have latched to the glory of egypt. Now bring you bronze cast anyday and share a display table of inventions with a European, I'd assume you'd come out thoroughly embarrassed.

ezeagu:

Clearly you are not here to learn or understand anything. Nsibidi is proto-writing that could be logoraphic, do you know what logographic means? Example, Chinese characters are logographic, and here's the thing, Chinese characters, or as the Japanese who copied them call it, Kanji, are is not an alphabet system. A writing system is the not the same thing as an alphabet, dooo yoooouuu geeettt ittt? Googleing pictures of Nsibidi is USELESS, the released symbols, as a published author says, was an "elaborate joke." Most of the symbols you looked up are these right?

[center][/center]

Try picking up an actual book, before you arrogantly declare something that is so ancient as a 'fraud.' It pays to get your facts straight.

As for Nsibidi sentences, I'll hold back because you don't know the difference between an alphabet and a writing system. It's used on everything from secret sign's/warnings to Ekpe wrappers.

[center][img]http://africa.si.edu/exhibits/inscribing/images/eduimages/ukaraLG.jpg[/img][/center]

I was talking about a script actually but either way, anybody can draw those lame logos and call it a writing system. Did Igbos use this "writing system" to record their history, if yes, tell us what the recorded history and/or events say about how they lived 1500 years ago.

EzeUche22:

gadogado

That was a more recent use of Nsibidi. Writing scripts evolve. But it was here prior to the European invasion.

Can you read this?   It is Nsibidi. . . Ancient Nsibidi to be more exact.

Sure, it means Im driving to the restaurant to go eat with my "table set" and "cocktail glass"

Aigbofa:

When Europeans came to Benin and Ife to take away Bronze castings, do you they simply used them to decorate their living rooms without asking how they were made?
Do you think they didn't gain any knowledge about casting metals? Do you think they simply made locomotives out of the blues?

It doesn't work that way, things don't happen out of the blues!!

They happen out of the reds

Why is it so hard for Africans to accept that they simple arent as intelligent as other races? You have continuously proven that to be the case both in what you're able to do, build and produce and also IQ tests clearly suggest that the sub saharan African is the least intelligent being on earth.
I say accept the bitter truth and begin looking for ways to make yourself more intelligent and hence more competitive rather that being emotional and defensive!

Aigbofa:


This is like looking at Egyptian hyroglyphics and asking, where are the sentences!!!

You cant say that the script is 1500 years old and their sign for "table set" is forks, spoons and even a cocktail glass. Dont be foolish, this is purely fraud. When did Igbo people start eating food with utensils?  As far as I know, they eat with their hands. Also, forks and all that were not created 1500 years ago. Please dont be daft. It demeans you.

Onlytruth:

Are you even following normal logic?

Why not dissect Europe as you do Africa? How come you are ready to accept English achievement as a European achievement, but reject Ethoipian or Egyptian or Berbers as African achievement?

Frankly, there is a gap in your thought process.

As long as Africa is ONE continues land space (not islands in the ocean), no part of Africa can be divorced from the achievement of the other.

Look at my criteria for claiming a civilization. a,b and c.

EzeUche22:

Nsibidi Script. . . I will not allow anyone take that away from my Eastern Nigeria people. Something thousands of years old! The nerve of these fools saying we didn't have a writing script. I can't speak for all of Africa, but I know my people had a writing script!

Im seriously laughing @ the ndibisi sign for "table set" and someone was saying its 1500 years old. FRAUD. Besides, this is not a script its merely symbology, show me the alphabets and the sentences, Im waiting!

EzeUche22:

Do the British and French not claim Ancient Rome and Greece as their classical civilizations? Even the Russians claim they are an extension of the Old Roman Empire through their contact with the Byzantine Empire.

Indians have their own ancient civilization and China is ancient as well.

So why can't African societies claim Ancient Egypt as our classical civilization. Since it is now providing inspiration for Africans around the continent.

I agree with you here, they do infact claim greco-roman civilizations. However, thats because of the extensive contact and heavy borrowing from that duo by western Europeans. Actually, the British were largely roman slaves. So there has to be some criteria from claiming a civilization that didnt occur in ur ancestral land, there must be a) contact b) similarities (both racial and cultural) c) building upon the initial civilization. You can't claim Egypt if you've built nothing onto the Ancient Egyptian civilization. But the British/west can claim greco-roman because they took their concepts and built on them.

sage:


Have you ever seen people in Chechnya claim Britain or Italy before? Have you seen Indians claiming China's civilization before even though they are all Asians?

Don't mind that guy, wonder what world he lives in. Things are not nearly that convenient!

@ezeuche

These scripts you're coming up with are concepts that came up very recently. I once showed my professor and a liberian girl that bassa script, its complete bull shit. If it came up after colonization or post European contact, then it doesn't count. All of these scripts you're coming up with came post EC so they don't count. Furthermore, they're pretty much rip offs and modifications of arabic, latin et.al

EzeUche22:

The same goes for you. 

You are wrong! Let me give you some examples of African writing systems.

- Adinkra [/b]symbols found in Ghana amongst the Akan people
- The [b]Mende Script. . . Exmples found here http://www.library.cornell.edu/africana/Writing_Systems/Mende.html
- Nsibidi [/b]in Eastern Nigeria amongst the Igbo and Ibibio.
- [b]Shumom [/b]in Cameroon
- [b]Vai [/b]and modern day Liberia

Now what are you saying that Africans did not having a writing system? Like I told you before, learn African history before you make erroneous statements.

[b]So will someone refute me if they can?

Mende script was devised by Mohammed Turay (born ca. 1850), an Islamic scholar, at a town called Maka (Barri Chiefdom, southern Sierra Leone). One of Turay's Koranic students was a young man named Kisimi Kamara. Kamara was the grandson of Turay's sister. Kamara also married Turay's daughter, Mariama. Turay devised a form of writing called 'Mende Abajada' (meaning 'Mende alphabet'), which was inspired in part by the Arabic abjad and in part by the Vai syllabary.

Dude, something that came up less than a hundered years ago does not count! period!!

Aigbofa:

And tell me, who were the first people to write? Again it's between the Mesopotamians and Ancient Egyptians of course.
The Europeans gained a lot from Africa, it doesn't matter they improved on the knowledge gained and refused to give any credit to Africa. Afterall, they are the ones writting the history.

Modern day English is based on Sanskrit alphabets not ancient egyptian hieroglyphics, plus why are all the civilizations in "Africa" that created writing systems all in the the extreme east, Egypt and Ethiopia both of whom have heavy semitic/caucasian admixture. Even the berbers who are indigenous to North Africa but are caucasian have their own self developed writing system. The only set of people in Africa that didn't create a writing system are the ones that are in the heart of africa and unmixed with whites etc. I want someone to give me an answer, west africa, central africa and southern africa have no writing sytems of their own, only extreme north (Mediterranean admixture) and East Africans (semitic admixture) look at a map and conclude the proximity of these groups with our reading and writing African brothers.  The obasanjo looking African has always been starkly illiterate

EzeUche22:

To create structures, cultures, languages etc. There is no difference between an African's brain or an European brain.

Only difference is the Africans seeming inability to create an indigenous writing system/script.

EzeUche22:

Yes, Africans were killing each other before the Europeans came, but not to this extent.

Remember that it was Europeans, not Asians or Africans who started TWO world wars which killed millions of their people. The European only knows how to destroy, not create.

Have you heard of Mansa Musa? Who at the time was the richest man in the world, and when he went on his pilgrimage to Mecca, the gold he brought with him changed the course of European and Arab history. And guess what? He was an African. And guess another thing, Africans were mining gold. Refining bronze. And some were even creating Iron tools.

Mehn you need to pick up a book and learn African history. A continent such as vast as Africa, cannot be simplistically explained!

@ bold=massive lie. I think you're confused, wasn't Mansa Musa a muslim? didnt he read and write arabic? wasn't his monarchy based of the borrowed arab-emirate system and weren't arabs the ones buying the gold from him? You're talking about a fully colonized and arabized king who probably loved arabs to no end. Not an indigenous, self created political or social order, were it not for the arabs, africans wouldn't really know what to do with gold. Africans were exchanging gold for salt with arabs back in the day.

Sharon_f:

I think its pretty clear that gadogado thinks he is stup'ider than everyone else so theres no need trying to convince him otherwise.

I dont think so but you and you collective kin have been relentless in proving that you're indeed "stup'ider" than the rest of the world! How were your ancestors living before they came into contact with europeans? were they enlightened people or superstitious savages who believed a common cold was a demonic curse. Was your part of Africa clothed or walking around naked by that time Apart from the arts (music and little sculptures) what did Africans produce? what was the level of productivity of Africans prior to european contact?

Nsibidi or whatever is fake, totally fake!!

EzeUche22:

Look at what Africans were able to create prior to the European invasion and conquest!

And now look at what we create! Nothing!

Funny how those pre colonial africans created those pieces of art but could not "label" them if their lives depended on it.

EzeUche22:

My brother, the Muslim Moors only conquered Spain and the Ottoman Turks only made it as far to the Balkans. Western Europe was never colonized. France, Great Britain, Germany, Italy and Scandinavia was never conquered. They just fought amongst themselves.

What do you mean many of us could not read? Have you heard of the Arabic script that was able to write down our history from the Empire of Ghana, Mali, Songhay. And the Ethiopians [/b]had their own writing script as well. You cannot say that Africans were not literate when Arabic script and Ethiopian script was being used to write books and our history.

Look at the cities that were made in [b]Great Zimbabwe, Great Benin and even in Yorubaland. Africans were progressing from a different route.

Plus, the Europeans stole everything from the CHINESE [/b]AND THE [b]ARABS. The CHINESE were the most advanced people for CENTURIES!  And what about the Great Pyramids at Giza. They were created by Africans, not Arabs or Whites. They were black Africans. While the Europeans were painting their faces blue and creating Stonehenge, the Ancient Egyptians were creating monuments that were stand the test of time.

And let us not forget that Ethiopia was Christian before Europe ever became Christian. Learn Africa's history first, before you write erroneous statements.

You need to chill out with this ancient Egypt thing, sub saharan Africans have nothing to do with Egypt or the pyramids, some west Africans had not figured out the concept of the wheel by the 19th century. I suppose you'll tell me you're a direct descendant of king tut. Further more, Ethiopian DNA suggest heavy european admixture from thousands of years ago.

sage:

Many Africans are incapable of self-criticism and are emotional about everything. That is a major reason why the continent remains underdeveloped


1  First of all Africa is a very diverse continent full of different people. Not all Africans even have dark skin colour (black) and not all Africans lived in similar societies.

2 We gained Literacy by coming in contact with the European civilization. Our society was never going to become a complex society without the Europeans introducing the concept of literacy to us.

3 Societies are judged by how complex they are. This is why nobody could deny Asian achievements. Nobody was going to respect a group of people who have no idea what it means to be literate and live in mud and tatch houses.

4 Illiteracy happened to be a bane on development. It has forever set the continent back. The only way to achieve recognition is to shape the present or future for the better

5 In the grand scheme of things the above video is irrelevant, and so are people who keep complaining about exploitation.



Before the Europeans came a lot of African societies could not practice Statistics, Geometry and Trignometry, Engineering in a written form etc. These are concepts that helped societies develop more complex structures and amazing construction.



In conclusion we are the architects of all our problems including the video above. When a society embraces illiteracy for generations and thousands of years, the society is inviting scorn on itself

And this makes me ask another question, for those saying that Africans are as intelligent as Europeans, How come there isn't a single group of Africans that developed their own writing system or script besides the Ethiopians (who distant themselves from being "African) and claim a semetic root. We couldn't develop a written form of communication at any point in time, i think this goes to say that we are in fact less intellectually endowed but when it comes to athletics, we're very much gifted. The black race might have been created for work and not thinking.

Beaf:

One of my gifts is a photographic memory. I recall an argument we had about Arabic inscriptions on the Naira. . . You claimed not to be black, but to be Shuwa Arab. All you are doing here is playing a racist game.

Perhaps your wifee didn't cook for you and locked you outside, so you want to take it out on black people. Na wa!
Shame on you and all racists.

Ok beaf, your ignorance is getting a little serious now! what and who is a shuwa arab. Shuwas are mostly people of mixed African and Arab descent, being shuwa doesnt change my nationality neither does it affect my desire to see my nation grow. There are many shuwas in the nigerian government. for example, abba aji is a shuwa man and he's Jonathan's liaison to the national assembly, the current minister of works father is 100% shuwa but can you say these people arent black?? look at a pic of Abba Aji, the man on the right

Beaf:

Its not hard to find out if you mean to. So I'll not join the argument. Just go find out from your own history first, then check if any Europeans were casting copper at the time. It is left to you to deny without even checking, but hey! I'm cool.

For me, the argument stops here, I don't want to be depressed.

accepting reality need not be depressing! Its just a realization that different groups of people are endowed with different gifts.