Kay 17: ^^
Being a God is a divine status, hence Sango, Obatala and Esu are divine beings, not mortals albeit lower than Olorun in hierarchy.

Pagans are the one that attributed divinity to them. And u're wrong if you want to face reality.

Kay 17:
Idols are merely earthly representations of the Gods.

I know, but my question is; "Before Sango, Esu, Obatala et al, how do Yorubas worship Gods?

Kay 17:
The problem with you is that you are trying to infuse your Islamic God into the yoruba mythology,

Islamic/Arab God and Yoruba God, is there any difference? I'm talking about God!

Kay 17:
Yorubas don't have a problem with Gods having sex and procreating, not one problem.

That could be due to many circumstances.

Kay 17:
Where is your evidence that those Gods are personified/animated objects??

Why do you call Sango/Thor as "god of thunder"?

Mintayo:
Its a mystery,its beyond you,its beyond islam...its an encounter.
Jesus is Alive,He appears to ppl as He wishes...He is Lord.
Can we say the same of Mohammed or allah?

You can't see Allah whether in vision or illusion. however, u can see His Signs which u as a person can't deny but ignorantly belittle it.

obioraop: Source pls source be authentic dont come and post rubbish abi what do u take us for 5year old school kids

Oh bro! u mean, u've never heared of Dr. Jerald Dirk? it sounds strange to me.

Let me just give u this; http://www.google.com/xhtml?q=Dr%20jerald%20dirk&client=ms-opera_mb_no&channel=bh

Kay 17:

No, they are Gods

No, they are Idols or better still gods that is if you really mean ur below statement.

Kay 17:
yet lower in hierarchy to Olodumare.

How do Pagans practicalize this?

Kay 17:
No one is saying they are equal to Olorun.

But they are Gods?

Kay 17:
Also, they are sons of Olorun and that seems difficult for you to swallow,

how are they sons, literal, metarphorical, biological? What about other people of their time that weren't deified?

Kay 17:
yet in Yoruba mythology Gods can procreate, same with Roman and Greek mythologies.

God procreate God?

You'll agree with me that Sango is a personification of inanimate creation (thunder).
And i hope u won't tell me that Thunder never existed until Sango came?

Then who is the God of thunder?

"For those contemplating the acceptance of Islam and the surrendering of oneself to Allah—glorified and exalted is He, there may well be sacrifices along the way. Many of these sacrifices are easily predicted, while others may be rather surprising and unexpected. There is no denying the existence of these sacrifices, and I don’t intend to sugar coat that pill for you. Nonetheless, don’t be overly troubled by these sacrifices. In the final analysis, these sacrifices are less important than you presently think. Allah willing, you will find these sacrifices a very cheap coin to pay for the “goods” you are purchasing."

Not too many months after our return to America from the Middle East, a neighbor invited us over to his house, saying that he wanted to talk with us about our conversion to Islam. He was a retired Methodist minister, with whom I had had several conversations in the past. Although we had occasionally talked superficially about such issues as the artificial construction of the Bible from various, earlier, independent sources, we had never had any in-depth conversation about religion. I knew only that he appeared to have acquired a solid seminary education, and that he sang in the local church choir every Sunday.
My initial reaction was, “Oh, oh, here it comes”. Nonetheless, it is a Muslim’s duty to be a good neighbor, and it is a Muslim’s duty to be willing to discuss Islam with others. As such, I accepted the invitation for the following evening, and spent most of the waking part of the next 24 hours contemplating how best to approach this gentleman in his requested topic of conversation. The appointed time came, and we drove over to our neighbor’s. After a few moments of small talk, he finally asked why I had decided to become a Muslim. I had waited for this question, and had my answer carefully prepared. “As you know with your seminary education, there were a lot of non-religious considerations which led up to and shaped the decisions of the Council of Nicaea.” He immediately cut me off with a simple statement: “You finally couldn’t stomach the polytheism anymore, could you?” He knew exactly why I was a Muslim, and he didn’t disagree with my decision! For himself, at his age and at his place in life, he was electing to be “an atypical Christian”. Allah willing, he has by now completed his journey from cross to crescent.

There are sacrifices to be made in being a Muslim in America. For that matter, there are sacrifices to be made in being a Muslim anywhere. However, those sacrifices may be more acutely felt in America, especially among American converts. Some of those sacrifices are very predictable, and include altered dress and abstinence from alcohol, pork, and the taking of interest on one’s money. Some of those sacrifices are less predictable. For example, one Christian family, with whom we were close friends, informed us that they could no longer associate with us, as they could not associate with anyone “who does not take Jesus Christ as his personal savior”. In addition, quite a few of my professional colleagues altered their manner of relating to me. Whether it was coincidence or not, my professional referral base dwindled, and there was almost a 30% drop in income as a result. Some of these less predictable sacrifices were hard to accept, although the sacrifices were a small price to pay for what was received in return.

For those contemplating the acceptance of Islam and the surrendering of oneself to Allah—glorified and exalted is He, there may well be sacrifices along the way. Many of these sacrifices are easily predicted, while others may be rather surprising and unexpected. There is no denying the existence of these sacrifices, and I don’t intend to sugar coat that pill for you. Nonetheless, don’t be overly troubled by these sacrifices. In the final analysis, these sacrifices are less important than you presently think. Allah willing, you will find these sacrifices a very cheap coin to pay for the “goods” you are purchasing.

"I was a Christian, or so I said. After all, I had been born into a Christian family, had been given a Christian upbringing, had attended church and Sunday school every Sunday as a child, had graduated from a prestigious seminary, and was an ordained minister in a large Protestant denomination. However, I was also a Christian: who didn’t believe in a triune godhead or in the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him; who knew quite well how the Bible had been corrupted; who had said the Islamic testimony of faith in my own carefully parsed words ... If asked if I were a Muslim, I could and did do a five-minute monologue detailing the above, and basically leaving the question unanswered. I was playing intellectual word games, and succeeding at them quite nicely."

It was now March of 1993, and my wife and I were enjoying a five-week vacation in the Middle East. It was also the Islamic month of Ramadan, when Muslims fast from day break until sunset. Because we were so often staying with or being escorted around by family members of our Muslim friends back in the States, my wife and I had decided that we also would fast, if for no other reason than common courtesy. During this time, I had also started to perform the five daily prayers of Islam with my newfound, Middle Eastern, Muslim friends. After all, there was nothing in those prayers with which I could disagree.
I was a Christian, or so I said. After all, I had been born into a Christian family, had been given a Christian upbringing, had attended church and Sunday school every Sunday as a child, had graduated from a prestigious seminary, and was an ordained minister in a large Protestant denomination. However, I was also a Christian: who didn’t believe in a triune godhead or in the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him; who knew quite well how the Bible had been corrupted; who had said the Islamic testimony of faith in my own carefully parsed words; who had fasted during Ramadan; who was saying Islamic prayers five times a day; and who was deeply impressed by the behavioral examples I had witnessed in the Muslim community, both in America and in the Middle East. (Time and space do not permit me the luxury of documenting in detail all of the examples of personal morality and ethics I encountered in the Middle East.) If asked if I were a Muslim, I could and did do a five-minute monologue detailing the above, and basically leaving the question unanswered. I was playing intellectual word games, and succeeding at them quite nicely.

It was now late in our Middle Eastern trip. An elderly friend who spoke no English and I were walking down a winding, little road, somewhere in one of the economically disadvantaged areas of greater ‘Amman, Jordan. As we walked, an elderly man approached us from the opposite direction, said, “Salam ‘Alaykum”, i.e., “peace be upon you”, and offered to shake hands. We were the only three people there. I didn’t speak Arabic, and neither my friend nor the stranger spoke English. Looking at me, the stranger asked, “Muslim?”

At that precise moment in time, I was fully and completely trapped. There were no intellectual word games to be played, because I could only communicate in English, and they could only communicate in Arabic. There was no translator present to bail me out of this situation, and to allow me to hide behind my carefully prepared English monologue. I couldn’t pretend I didn’t understand the question, because it was all too obvious that I had. My choices were suddenly, unpredictably, and inexplicably reduced to just two: I could say “N’am”, i.e., “yes”; or I could say “La”, i.e., “no”. The choice was mine, and I had no other. I had to choose, and I had to choose now; it was just that simple. Praise be to Allah, I answered, “N’am”.

With saying that one word, all the intellectual word games were now behind me. With the intellectual word games behind me, the psychological games regarding my religious identity were also behind me. I wasn’t some strange, atypical Christian. I was a Muslim. Praise be to Allah, my wife of 33 years also became a Muslim about that same time.

"I became increasingly concerned about the loss of religiousness in American society at large. Religiousness is a living, breathing spirituality and morality within individuals, and should not be confused with religiosity, which is concerned with the rites, rituals, and formalized creeds of some organized entity, e.g. the church. American culture increasingly appeared to have lost its moral and religious compass ... [It] was becoming a morally bankrupt institution, and I was feeling quite alone in my personal religious vigil.

Seen from the outside, I was a very promising young minister, who had received an excellent education, drew large crowds to the Sunday morning worship service, and had been successful at every stop along the ministerial path. However, seen from the inside, I was fighting a constant war to maintain my personal integrity in the face of my ministerial responsibilities. This war was far removed from the ones presumably fought by some later televangelists in unsuccessfully trying to maintain personal sexual morality. Likewise, it was a far different war than those fought by the headline-grabbing pedophilic priests of the current moment. However, my struggle to maintain personal integrity may be the most common one encountered by the better-educated members of the ministry.
There is some irony in the fact that the supposedly best, brightest, and most idealistic of ministers-to-be are selected for the very best of seminary education, e.g. that offered at that time at the Harvard Divinity School. The irony is that, given such an education, the seminarian is exposed to as much of the actual historical truth as is known about: 1) the formation of the early, “mainstream” church, and how it was shaped by geopolitical considerations; 2) the “original” reading of various Biblical texts, many of which are in sharp contrast to what most Christians read when they pick up their Bible, although gradually some of this information is being incorporated into newer and better translations; 3) the evolution of such concepts as a triune godhead and the “sonship” of Jesus, peace be upon him; 4) the non-religious considerations that underlie many Christian creeds and doctrines; 5) the existence of those early churches and Christian movements which never accepted the concept of a triune godhead, and which never accepted the concept of the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him; and 6) etc. (Some of these fruits of my seminary education are recounted in more detail in my recent book, The Cross and the Crescent: An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam, Amana Publications, 2001.)

As such, it is no real wonder that almost a majority of such seminary graduates leave seminary, not to “fill pulpits”, where they would be asked to preach that which they know is not true, but to enter the various counseling professions. Such was also the case for me, as I went on to earn a master’s and doctorate in clinical psychology. I continued to call myself a Christian, because that was a needed bit of self-identity, and because I was, after all, an ordained minister, even though my full time job was as a mental health professional. However, my seminary education had taken care of any belief I might have had regarding a triune godhead or the divinity of Jesus, peace be upon him. (Polls regularly reveal that ministers are less likely to believe these and other dogmas of the church than are the laity they serve, with ministers more likely to understand such terms as “son of God” metaphorically, while their parishioners understand it literally.) I thus became a “Christmas and Easter Christian”, attending church very sporadically, and then gritting my teeth and biting my tongue as I listened to sermons espousing that which I knew was not the case.

None of the above should be taken to imply that I was any less religious or spiritually oriented than I had once been. I prayed regularly, my belief in a supreme deity remained solid and secure, and I conducted my personal life in line with the ethics I had once been taught in church and Sunday school. I simply knew better than to buy into the man-made dogmas and articles of faith of the organized church, which were so heavily laden with the pagan influences, polytheistic notions, and geo-political considerations of a bygone era.

As the years passed by, I became increasingly concerned about the loss of religiousness in American society at large. Religiousness is a living, breathing spirituality and morality within individuals, and should not be confused with religiosity, which is concerned with the rites, rituals, and formalized creeds of some organized entity, e.g. the church. American culture increasingly appeared to have lost its moral and religious compass. Two out of every three marriages ended in divorce; violence was becoming an increasingly inherent part of our schools and our roads; self-responsibility was on the wane; self-discipline was being submerged by a “if it feels good, do it” morality; various Christian leaders and institutions were being swamped by sexual and financial scandals; and emotions justified behavior, however odious it might be. American culture was becoming a morally bankrupt institution, and I was feeling quite alone in my personal religious vigil.

"There is some irony in the fact that the supposedly best, brightest, and most idealistic of ministers-to-be are selected for the very best of seminary education, e.g. that offered at that time at the Harvard Divinity School. The irony is that, given such an education, the seminarian is exposed to ... much ... historical truth. .. As such, it is no real wonder that almost a majority of such seminary graduates leave seminary, not to “fill pulpits”, where they would be asked to preach that which they know is not true, but to enter the various counseling professions. Such was also the case for me, as I went on to earn a master’s and doctorate in clinical psychology."
One of my earliest childhood memories is of hearing the church bell toll for Sunday morning worship in the small, rural town in which I was raised. The Methodist Church was an old, wooden structure with a bell tower, two children’s Sunday School classrooms cubbyholed behind folding, wooden doors to separate it from the sanctuary, and a choir loft that housed the Sunday school classrooms for the older children. It stood less than two blocks from my home. As the bell rang, we would come together as a family, and make our weekly pilgrimage to the church.

In that rural setting from the 1950s, the three churches in the town of about 500 were the center of community life. The local Methodist Church, to which my family belonged, sponsored ice cream socials with hand-cranked, homemade ice cream, chicken potpie dinners, and corn roasts. My family and I were always involved in all three, but each came only once a year. In addition, there was a two-week community Bible school every June, and I was a regular attendee through my eighth grade year in school. However, Sunday morning worship and Sunday school were weekly events, and I strove to keep extending my collection of perfect attendance pins and of awards for memorizing Bible verses.

By my junior high school days, the local Methodist Church had closed, and we were attending the Methodist Church in the neighboring
town, which was only slightly larger than the town in which I lived. There, my thoughts first began to focus on the ministry as a personal calling. I became active in the Methodist Youth Fellowship, and eventually served as both a district and a conference officer. I also became the regular “preacher” during the annual Youth Sunday service.
My preaching began to draw community-wide attention, and before long I was occasionally filling pulpits at other churches, at a nursing home, and at various church-affiliated youth and ladies groups, where I typically set attendance records.

By age 17, when I began my freshman year at Harvard College, my decision to enter the ministry had solidified. During my freshman year, I enrolled in a two-semester course in comparative religion, which was taught by Wilfred Cantwell Smith, whose specific area of expertise was Islam. During that course, I gave far less attention to Islam, than I did to other religions, such as Hinduism and Buddhism, as the latter two seemed so much more esoteric and strange to me. In contrast, Islam appeared to be somewhat similar to my own Christianity. As such, I didn’t concentrate on it as much as I probably should have, although I can remember writing a term paper for the course on the concept of revelation in the Qur’an. Nonetheless, as the course was one of rigorous academic standards and demands, I did acquire a small library of about a half dozen books on Islam, all of which were written by non-Muslims, and all of which were to serve me in good stead 25 years later. I also acquired two different English translations of the meaning of the Qur’an, which I read at the time.
That spring, Harvard named me a Hollis Scholar, signifying that I was one of the top pre-theology students in the college. The summer between my freshman and sophomore years at Harvard, I worked as a youth minister at a fairly large United Methodist Church. The following summer, I obtained my License to Preach from the United Methodist Church. Upon graduating from Harvard College in 1971, I enrolled at the Harvard Divinity School, and there obtained my Master of Divinity degree in 1974, having been previously ordained into the Deaconate of the United Methodist Church in 1972, and having previously received a Stewart Scholarship from the United Methodist Church as a supplement to my Harvard Divinity School scholarships. During my seminary education, I also completed a two-year externship program as a hospital chaplain at Peter Bent Brigham Hospital in Boston. Following graduation from Harvard Divinity School, I spent the summer as the minister of two United Methodist churches in rural Kansas, where attendance soared to heights not seen in those churches for several years.

^^ You can tell me what made them to be equal with Olodumare, when they were created by Olodumare.

THEY WERE CREATED OF THEY CREATE THEMSELVES?

CP: Guantanamo’s probably the most infamous prison in the world. How do you feel Guantanamo’s impacted the world, in terms of being a symbol of detention?

TH: I feel that if you’re anywhere else in the world and you see a bunch of Americans holding up a sign that says G-I-T-M-O, you’d probably get to see how bad we are at teaching spelling, or the whole educational system is here, being that it is G-T-M-O…sorry, I have some biased opinions towards the US and US citizens…Yeah, it probably is, and I really don’t understand how it’s gained the celebrity status that it has, so to say.

There’s been minimal knowledge of a lot of the events that have transpired down there; minimal knowledge of a lot of the interrogation tactics that have taken place and the sad fact is that the US government has only kept up of nineteen individuals that they can hold anything on. Out of that, five of them they have concrete evidence on- out of 774, it just goes to show that this is some excuse put forth by the Bush administration to put forth something to appease the American people and make them feel safe at night- when in fact there was no threat, there was no threat to begin with. Only a fool would think that 9/11 would happen without any knowledge of the US- it’s a ridiculous idea. But I honestly don’t know how it’s gained the status that it has, it’s ridiculous.

CP: In some ways you’re criticizing the practices of your country; do you think in some way, that you’re being disloyal to American?

TH: Do I think I’m being disloyal to America, or disloyal to the American lawmakers (the government), because those are two distinctly different questions. Being disloyal to America, no- it is my job as a citizen of this country to speak the truth, to exhibit my freedom of speech, my freedom of choice, et cetera- that’s my right…evidently why I served for what I’ve served for. I feel that if something like that is going on- if all those wrongdoings are being done on our part, then something needs to be said about that. I was reading a news article on CNN today as a matter of fact that, evidently detainees who are being released are resorting to terrorism against the US. Again, pardon of my French, ‘no s***, what did you think was going to happen?’ I mean, put innocent people in a caged facility and treat them horribly, then wonder if they’re going to resent America afterwards- they’re going to harbor some feelings of hatred and animosity- it’s ridiculous; you’d had to have known it would happen. I don’t understand it, it’s ridiculous to me. But disloyal to America, no; disloyal to American politicians, lawmakers- yes. But they’re disloyal to us as well- I don’t see any wrongdoing…it’s sort of how it goes- they’re liars, they’re crooks, they’re well dressed thieves.

CP: Ok. Bringing in a more recent point, Barrack Hussein Obama has promised to close Guantanamo within a year- do you feel that this is a reasonable prospect, and are you hopeful that there’ll be a reasonable change under his presidency?

TH: I’ll tell you, I was very afraid…very afraid and hesitant at first with the idea of Obama becoming president; the rest of the world, when it comes to politics and economics, it’s used to having a crooked white Christian liar for its face, as president. And when you put an intelligent, honest black American up in the front, obviously there’s going to be some challenges- obviously there’s going to be countries that are going to see how far they can push buttons, how much they can get away with. And that was something that I was very apprehensive towards.

After hearing his inaugural speech, he’s certainly written a great deal of checks that I hope he’s capable of cashing- he’s done a good number of things in just a few days to undo the eight catastrophic years of American history that President Bush was. And if he lives up to all his potential, he will certainly be an amazing individual- he’ll certainly be a better turning point for the world. When it comes to Guantanamo, that’s great- I think it should be closed. I think it should be closed, and the detainees who are left there should be free, with the exception of the very few that they happen to believe they have evidence on. And if they do in fact have evidence, then great; try them- do what should be done. But with the rest of them, how do you make up for stealing seven years of someone’s life? There’s nothing you can do to give that time back- it’s just gone. I think it’s probably my biggest quarrel with Guantanamo Bay- it’s that these people are being forcefully held and probably just sold out, and for what? How are we going to fix that; how are we going to make things better; how are we going to restore those lives? There’s nothing you can do- no reparations are going to make up for it, and it’s just an awful situation.

CP: Do you really think there’s going to be that much change in Obama, simply because only yesterday he ordered drone attacks in Pakistan that killed a number of innocent civilians. So, the message being sent is that militarily, the policies are a continuation from the Bush administration.

TH: I think that the biggest issues with the war that a lot of people get caught up on and very much fixed on the idea of innocent civilians, innocent casualties. Unfortunately, that’s a fact of war- there’s always going to be innocent civilian casualties, and with the press and the internet and all of this knowledge being available as readily as it is (on the fingertips of anybody), I would be willing to assume…if I were a leader of an organization or a group who was trying to attack somebody else, I would definitely hide my soldiers and embed them with civilians. When you can show civilians killed, it creates sympathy and it creates a tragedy and it creates more people who feel for your cause. So that’s going to continue to happen, that’s always going to continue to happen.

As for the actions he’s done, I’m hoping he has some justifiable means as to…hopefully it results in something better. I do think that he’s going to bring a great deal of stability to the world- I do think he’s going to help create a significant difference in the world- not just in the US and our political affairs, but he’s certainly going to create a difference overall. Getting the US out of the Middle East is the first thing that needs to occur; how the US can stop policing the world is the second thing that needs to occur- that’s not our job, that’s not why we’re here. To usher democracy and the greatness of democracy, then just lead by example- why do we need to enforce it? How’s that any different from a world dictatorship so to say?

CP: You’re obviously away from Guantanamo now, and you’re free of it, and there have been a number of men who’ve been released. What would you say to detainees who were released without being charged with any crime if ever you were to meet them?

TH: That’s a good one. Tarek (Dergoul), I don’t know if I’m pronouncing it correctly, was actually the first detainee to get in touch with me, and all of these events transpired within about two weeks of each other- it was really a quite interesting two weeks for me. He sent me an email that stated ‘I forgive you’ as the subject line, and it was just interesting to me to think that he not necessarily assumed, but the thought that I was trying to contact people who were detainees to apologize. An apology is not going to make up anything. I’d love to see the point in me to apologize- I was unbelievably hospitable and nice, and I tried to give care while I was down there. I hope I made a difference in their lives- some little bit of brightness in their life.

But if anything, all I have to really say to them is ‘thank you’- for having the courage and strength to persevere and not give in to any type of evil or wrongdoing. Thank you for sticking to Islam and leaving it as pure as it should be, and just loving and caring and forgiving. And that’s pretty much all I can think of; they gave me far more than I could ever possibly think of- it was a life-changing experience. I’m both deeply grateful and deeply saddened to have been a part of Guantanamo Bay

CP: How do you feel about the perception of Muslims in the US? And I’m kind of asking this question outside of your own identity as a Muslim, so maybe before you became a Muslim, so what do you feel about the perception of Muslims in the United States?

TH: 'What’s a Muslim?' would be my first response. Followed by, those terrible dirt farmers are all evil. That would be the view in Christian America, there isn’t anything else here. Perhaps you own a diamond business, or you’re in politics, then maybe you’re Jewish; otherwise there is only Christianity here.

One of the difficult facts of coping with Islam and that transition, as a matter of fact, is music- I own probably close to six hundred CD’s that I’ve purchased. A good $4000 in keyboard equipment, a bass guitar, and I love music. It’s a wonderful, phenomenal thing. And to give up music...that’s quite a challenge. I know I’m not the only one- I’ve spoken with another detainee as well who gave up music, and he told me about how it was a very emotionally distraught situation for him, but I’m straying off topic...

CP: Yeah, I’ve heard that from a lot of people I know who converted to Islam say the same thing- that giving up drinking and pork was easy- it’s just music was the difficult part. I’m not just talking about Muslims who live in the US, but what is the perception of US citizens to Muslims around the world full stop?

TH: Again, I was saying it’s really Christian America- you don’t learn anything else about the world. When you’re going through high school, through middle school, through elementary school...I always thought there was a good comparison to that and many conspiracy theories that I won’t bother with, but our history of World War 2...my sophomore year of high school, I went to an A+ high school in Arizona (supposedly one of the better educational institutions of public high schools)...what did that evolve to? ‘Hitler was bad; Hitler killed six million Jews. The end.’ Ok, that’s maybe the abridged version- perhaps the other seven million people he killed that weren’t Jewish- that were mainly gay, or crippled, or another ethnicity or color or another creed- do they not matter? Did they not exist? We don’t care- you don’t hear anything about them. You don’t hear anything about the Armenian Genocide; you don’t hear anything about Islam. It’s just not common. The Ottoman Empire? What’s the Ottoman Empire? That’s crazy; you would never think to ask that, because they never teach that.

We don’t learn about Islam in school, we don’t learn about other thoughts or schools of belief- it’s just Christianity, Catholicism, and more obviously all the other different sects- it’s Presbyterianism and Protestants and Latter Day Saints and so forth. A whole bunch of people just take whatever they want out of a faith and make it their own, as opposed to following it as it’s given to them. I literally knew nothing of Islam prior to going to Guantanamo Bay- literally nothing. And I’m not trying to come across as pompous or arrogant, but I’d like to think of myself as an intelligent individual, and it’s embarrassing to say I knew nothing of Islam- here’s a quarter of the world’s population and I don’t know anything about them!

CP: During your time in Guantanamo, did you form any kind of relationship with any of the men you were guarding? Which detainees stood out?

TH: A good number of them… Detainee 590; ‘the General’, as we called him. There were rumors for most of the detainees as to how they received the nick names they had. We’d talk for hours and hours- we’d talk about books, we’d talk about music, we’d talk about philosophy, we would talk about religion…More often than not when I got the night shift I would generally stay up and talk with him throughout the night- we’d talk about the history of this war, what’s been going on, what’s taking place in the Middle East for the last two hundred, three hundred, four hundred years. And when you boil it down, fortunately he didn’t have anything bad to say about the US other than its most recent history. Apparently the United Kingdom and France are primarily to blame for what’s going on in the Middle East- colonization and ‘culturalisation’ of this continent for the purpose of money has created a lot of the issues we now face; along with the US feeling it can bear the role as the police officer of the world…Yeah, there were a good number of them. 590 stayed up one night and- we’d been talking about Islam for quite a while- I’d been studying Islam for quite a while at this point, and one night he stayed up with me and he transliterated how to say in English the declaration of faith, and watched me as I said it, and whatnot. So I would say the first time I declared my faith in Islam was probably in Guantanamo- was probably that night, with him.

CP: By Ahmed Errachidi?

TH: I believe so, yes. It was not common to know detainees on a first name basis.

CP: He was referred to as ‘the General’. There was another man who was referred to as ‘the Professor’- his name was Shaker Aamer…

TH: They need to let him go…with the hunger strike and everything that’s going on with him, and how he lost 100lbs- he’s lost 100lbs since he started his hunger strike, as opposed to when I left. He has to be dangerously unhealthy at this point- dangerously. The track record that they have for him- he leaves in 1998, goes to Pakistan, goes to Afghanistan, gets picked up in 2002, gets to Guantanamo Bay, and they’re weighing him at 260lbs…I’m sorry, but I don’t believe how that Taliban fighters of Al Qaeda are eating that well- I don’t believe they have food that good, wherever they may be. I very much doubt it.

CP: And did you have any interaction with Shaker?

TH: Plenty- he’s a wonderful character- unbelievably intelligent, very polite, very well-mannered, great etiquette. He was a very rational individual- if there was something he didn’t agree with, that he objected to, he’d explain it. He’d be very polite- no matter whom the guard was he was working with- whether it was a very ignorant uncaring American with no recognition for his situation, or me, or Chris perhaps- he was always a very polite individual, and would explain whatever was going on in terms that anyone would be able to understand. He was a wonderful person- I absolutely enjoyed spending time with him.

I spent two days in the hospital with David Hicks while he was having an operation down there, and that was interesting- I got to hear his entire life story, and his situation and whatnot. He didn’t go into entirely too much detail- he did tell me he was in Afghanistan and he was fighting, but not against American and Coalition forces- he was referring to Afghanistan fighting off Russia. He was a wonderful character as well- I enjoyed speaking with him. I spent a good time talking to the Tipton trio; they were often on the isolation blocks, which were on Camp One, which was the maximum security camp if I remember correctly- excluding Camp Five, excluding the new facility that was built in 2006- it was new at that point in time- when I was leaving they were starting construction on it. Camp 5 was where a good deal of the ' dangerous detainees' that we had knowledge of. I know there were other camps there, there were plenty of other camps there- there has to be; at night you can see lights that are in the mountains that are on- you know that there are other camps. I’m sure there are other facilities…

CP: We spoke a little about the torture and abuse before, but a question that follows on from that: who’s responsible for the abuses at Guantanamo? Is it just the actions of low-level soldiers (like they said took place in Abu Ghraib)? Or is this coming from higher up?

TH: I’d say more often than not- ninety percent of the circumstances- it’s just low-level soldiers; lack of knowledge, lack of empathy- individuals who don’t know anything about Islam, don’t know anything about the Middle East, don’t know anything about the war- don’t have any feelings or knowledge about it. They live in their small little American bubble in the way life’s “supposed” to be- apple pie, Budweiser, Marlboro Reds; let’s get drunk on the floor and populate the world with our dumb children. That’s more often than not, the individuals that have been doing that. It was a rarity that any physical violence would occur in regards to interrogation. Interrogations were, more often than not, mental or environmental abuse- not a physical abuse. The closest thing I can think of that was similar to physical abuse during interrogation was a point in which a female interrogator had a blood capsule in her pants that she used to simulate menstrual blood. Physical abuse primarily happened just from lower guards. And sadly, a lot of it just has to do with lack of intelligence- if they put just a little more effort into screening individuals before they allow us to join the military, and perhaps educating them in the military, (then) such things wouldn’t happen.

CP: Were you aware of any of the orders that were issued by Donald Rumsfeld regarding the use of interrogation techniques? These were considered tantamount to torture by international legal scholars- they consider a number of measures that were put forward by Donald Rumsfeld (specifically for the interrogation of detainees in Guantanamo) to be tantamount to torture. Were you aware of these policies that were coming in from there?

TH: I have some knowledge of it, and the primary reason behind that (granted that this was just hearsay), was due to the fact that Guantanamo wasn’t US soil. As a result of it being US soil, we weren’t responsible for upholding the Geneva conventions, so that’s why the facility has been utilized in the way that it’s been utilized; it basically gives us free reign to do as we please. Granted, it’s a horrible thing- it’s a horrible situation and whatnot, but that was the general consensus and attitude as to why it was how it was happening…I had very little political awareness at that point- absolutely no respect for President Bush- that guy was just an unbelievable slowpoke. I don’t know how he was elected twice, but that really says a lot about the US’s general population.

CP: You’re obviously a critic of Guantanamo - not only now, but while you were there as well. Were there others who felt the same way about the base as you, or did you feel as if you were alone?

TH: Oh, I was very much made to feel that I was alone. A good number of individuals that I was down there in my company were either resorting to alcohol and ping-pong and bowling and sports all night, or looking at porn, or whatever they were doing; as opposed to any type of saying or trying to improve themselves, or trying to attach some intelligence and further knowledge upon the matter. My interest in wanting to know detainees, trying to know their stories and what’s going on. My interest in Islam and my interest in wanting to know Arabic, at that point it raised quite a few eyebrows at first.

Primarily, I have a few issues with being told to I have to hate somebody- if I have to hate somebody, then there should be some great reasons as to why, and if you don’t give me a reason, then I not going to- it doesn’t make sense, there’s no logic there. And so many times we would watch this propaganda- these videos that the army had created about the evil terrorists, the evil 9/11, the evil Muslims- and it’s ridiculous. And not only that- they’d play it to the worst music; some of the most horrible American music ever- and they’d put that to footage of some bombings and killing and all this other stuff. I didn’t get it; it was ridiculous to me. So I looked at it as an opportunity to meet individuals from thirty some-odd countries, and perceive thirty some-odd different perspectives of the world and ways of life- why not take advantage of this and use it to further myself? And gain knowledge in fact- knowledge that I might not be able to gain again.

So immediately, I started talking to detainees, immediately I started befriending detainees, and immediately I started studying the Qur’an and studying Arabic, and yearning to know as much as I could about the history behind the war- not so much the 2001 point of the war starting, or ‘Papa Bush’s War’, but really, two hundred years ago- what has caused this war; why it is where it is now. And that created a sense of isolation in a way, because nobody else really had an interest in that, nobody wanted to know about that- they just wanted to do their job and get drunk, and that was their day- do their job and get drunk.

CP: So how did you learn?

TH: Initially it started off as curiosity and wanting to learn, but it became some very regimented studies- I would study every day at least an hour- I’d spend time on the internet talking in chat rooms - that’s when I first learnt about Cageprisoners. As a matter of fact, when I was in Guantanamo, I was actually surprised that you had photos of individuals’ bracelets, and photos that were taken of them (in Guantanamo), of copies of letters…how you potentially got copies of these things, it astonished me. Somebody on the inside had evidently not been working for us. So words start becoming theories and thoughts, expressions and feelings and started to create a sense of exile- a number of individuals didn’t want to talk with me, I found I was getting put on particular blocks, I was being put in certain jobs that would prevent me from having any time to sit and talk with detainees. I was never working night shifts- I was only working day shifts, and it was hopeless- there was a lot to do during the day shifts, and a lot to do during the evening shifts.

Eventually, it came to the point that a few squad leaders, a few sergeants within the platoon, decided that they were going to take me out back of one the houses that we were living in, and I suppose there was a ‘hazing’ of a college fraternity- basically they tried to beat some sense into me; that what I was doing was wrong and I was becoming a traitor, that I needed to put myself in check and understand it. And I suppose saying, ‘that’s not really my prerogative’, wasn’t the best of answers, because that pretty much sealed my fate for my entire time left in Guantanamo.

That place was Hell- I’m not entirely sure who it was Hell for more so- a sympathetic guard, a knowledgeable guard, or the detainees. I mean that, due to the sense that some of the detainees knew that if they were in a detention facility in their home country, it would be far worse- some of them were happy to be there. I don’t mean that to say it’s a good place- I do that to convey the knowledge that there were far worse facilities they could have been in, and have had worse things happen. Nonetheless, it was certainly difficult to be a guard who cared, or had care or sympathy. It was quite a difficult experience to get through.

CAGEPRISONERS: I’m being joined by Terry Holbrook in the US, a former Guantanamo Bay guard. He’s speaking to Cageprisoners today, about his experiences as a guard and what is taking place in Guantanamo. Terry, hello, or more appropriately ‘Asalaamu alaykum’

Terry Holbrook: Ha ha! Wa’alaykum asalaam

CP: So, first of all Terry, can you just introduce yourself to our readers?

TH: Ah…Where to begin, where to begin? I’m Terry C. Holdbrooks Jr, retired specialist United States Army, 10.25.2005. I was in Guantanamo Bay in 2003 & 2004- prior to the other guard who you’re already working with- Chris; Chris was there a little later. The rules changed from when Chris was there as opposed to when I was there. Nonetheless, something needs to be done- the masses need to know about that place, some of these people have been held there for years without charge or any probable cause.

CP: But going a bit further back than that, it would be interesting to find out about what family environment you grew up in, were raised in?

TH: Ah, you actually want to know about me? Let’s see here…my mother and father separated when I was six- they both decided that drugs were a little bit more important, as opposed to having a child or a marriage or being faithful or whatnot. Back then I wasn’t entirely too religious- religion wasn’t something that was brought up in my life. Obviously, being Christian America, you used to have a great deal of education about religion, you learn a wealth about Christianity, you see religious oppression all around, but nonetheless, that’s off-subject. The two of them separated, I went to live with my grandmother and grandfather; they were both kind-of ‘leftover hippies’ and whatnot, from the 60’s & 70’s and quite interesting characters in that respect (they’ve both passed away now).

I suppose you could say somewhere between lower to middle class, is how I was raised- we struggled to appear as middle class, although we were very much lower class. I had a relatively good childhood; I can’t think of anything entirely dysfunctional- dysfunctions happen to everybody. Graduated high school early; after high school I went to trade school- Conservatory of Recording Arts and Sciences, an audio engineering school- that was a stopgap thing that kind of happened and disappeared. I tried it after spending entirely too many days and evenings sitting around and drinking and doing nothing with my life, and I wanted to amount to something more than what my parents had amounted to- I wanted to amount to more than my family.

I had a calling within myself, and I just had to do something with myself. I had to be productive- something that you could feel pride, something that you could feel respectful and happy about. So…I decided to join the army- it was a long story, as it happens- when I initially went to the recruiter, I asked, ‘what is a job that I can do where I can get paid to just kill people? I don’t want to do anything- I just want to kill people- a job with the least amount of responsibility.’ And I guess the military in the United States at that time was hurting for military police officers, so, me not knowing anything about the military, he signed me up as a military police officer. In hindsight, with the scores I had in my exams I could have done just about anything else- any job in the military. I would’ve stayed in if I hadn’t been a military police officer.

CP: Right, so what were you doing just before you were assigned to Guantanamo Bay?

TH: Ah, let’s see here…that would’ve been back with the 252nd Military Police Company. We kind of just sat around- they stay on post, so they’re on-post military police officers, meaning they are garrison, work with the police station on post, etc. They never leave their posts- they take care of all the internal crimes that happen- the trafficking, gates, patrol, etc, all that business- they don’t deal with deployments and being actual soldiers; they’re mostly just desk clerks. Nonetheless, I was working with them- that was my first company out of basic training.

I was sitting down one day…as a matter of fact at Southgate, and Sergeant Neff had driven out to see us. We were told that we were going to the 463rd Military Police Company, and upon further investigation as to why this change was happening, (he replied that) we were being deployed. ‘Really?' Where am I being deployed to? (He replied) ‘Well, to Guantanamo Bay’. ‘Well, that’s convenient’ (!)- I just joined the army not too many months ago- I just got married even fewer months ago, and my new wife has just given up her entire life- dropped everything- moved down here to the middle of nowhere…in the woods of Missouri (misery), and now I’m going to be leaving her with no friends, family- nobody- she’s going to be stuck here herself. Wonderful; good times; cheers (!)

CP: So you kind of answered my next question as to what were your feelings when you were given the orders to guard the base, but further than that, what was your perception of the “War on Terror” and those you were soon to guard?

TH: Honestly at that point in time, I would have to say I didn’t have enough knowledge about it- I don’t think I had a formulated opinion, nor did I perhaps care. What happened on September 11th has come to me, as with those who’ve known me a long time, has caused me to have a nickname as a ‘sociopath’, due to the fact I didn’t care. September 11th happened and it didn’t phase me- in fact I thought it was about time America got one- it should’ve happened a long time ago- we’re not untouchable, we’re not some magical country- we’re some high-horse-riding, our s*** don’t stink, unlearned individuals.

So it wasn’t really a surprise to me- I didn’t feel too much emotion about it, and when I look back, I think it was just before we went to Guantanamo we stopped in New York City and saw Ground Zero. And I saw a quote on a wall that somebody had written, ‘This was the worst tragedy that happened to mankind’, and all I could really fathom was the numbers- how it was that 2700 people passing away was the worst tragedy that happened to mankind? What about the Armenian Genocide or the Crusades, or any of the other horrible atrocities that have occurred- how was this so awful? So, I suppose to answer your question, it wasn’t perhaps such a concern of mine- I didn’t have enough knowledge to formulate an opinion, and as such I went down with a very open mind. I wasn’t entirely happy to be a prison guard, it was merely another desk job- it wasn’t what I wanted to do in the military, but nonetheless it was a deployment, it was something new, it was a change of pace, so I was halfway excited about that.

CP: So you get to the base. What kind of training were you given in terms of dealing with Muslim detainees- cultural training, religious training- how much of that was given to you before you were…

TH: Cultural/religious training? Wonderful… None.

CP: Ok, so what were your primary responsibilities at the base?

TH: Being low in rank- I was just a Pv2 at that point in time (that’s the second rank in the army if you’re an enlisted soldier), I was primarily just a ‘grunt’- my job was to walk up and down the block, to ensure the detainees weren’t passing anything between cells, to ensure that there wasn’t any wrongdoings going on, that none of the detainees had any comfort items they were not supposed to have, to collect trash, to clean the block, to take detainees to and from their shower. And uh, quite often was to take detainees to and from interrogation.

CP: Right, ok. So during the time that you were doing this, did you ever witness abuse of detainees, or indeed their torture?

TH: Oh, a number of times. Which one would you like to talk about first- there are different categories of that- there’s interrogation, there’s simple on-the-block procedure, there’s ERF squad procedures- which I don’t believe Chris touched on- Emergency Response Force…

Some of the interrogation tactics- what I’ve come to learn about the American news is, if I read CNN and then I read the exact same article on Al-Jazeera, and I battle between the two of them and come to a happy medium, I’ll probably found the truth. I say with the example of that, for a long time, CNN denied any time of wrongdoing, any type of religious oppression or wrongdoing that ever occurred down in Guantanamo, when I had seen Qur’an’s thrown in toilets, I had seen Qur’ans picked up with a left hand, I had heard a good number and witnessed a good number of guards cussing about a Qur’an or prayer for that matter, ‘Oh, don’t touch this f****** Qur’an’, and that sort of thing- not entirely polite, but nonetheless as I said I’ve seen them thrown in toilets, I’ve seen them spat on- some of that happened quite often.

With interrogation, there was a good number of times when we’d have downtime or whatnot, and we’d sit in the same building that the interrogation would be going on in, and there’d be detainees that would be locked up for hours in horrible positions- for hours upon hours upon hours, in a room that might be fifty degrees, might be sixty degrees, might be colder, mind you they had a very thing jump suit on, and nothing else, with nothing but a strobe light playing and unbelievably loud music, some of which I reflect back on- some of which at a time I was a fan of-music I enjoyed, but to an average listener- a random Joe listening to that music, it was not anything anybody would like. Very often they would play music, and the idea that you were being subjected to for six, eight, ten hours- even I couldn’t listen to a song I enjoy for that long- I’d go crazy.

There was a day that came around where we had to issue flu shots to every detainee, and obviously I can understand that due to the circumstances, maybe one, maybe two; maybe a few detainees decided they were going to take advantage of this to create some kind of uproar, and state that perhaps it wasn’t a flu shot- perhaps it was going to be something that was going to kill them. So this caused an uproar- it spread through the camps quite quickly- it seems that within twenty minutes every block within the camp had this idea- that they shouldn’t get their shot- that their shot was bad, it was a horrible thing, it was going to kill them. Quite amazing actually, here are all these dirt farmers, who have no intelligence, at least that is what the army would tell us, and they can get a message through the entire camp delta with all the barriers in place, language, cells, construction, isolation, in 20 minuets. So what resulted- what should’ve been maybe a four hour process ended up becoming a day and a half, a two day process- for us to give every detainee their flu shot. And more often than not, how that worked was with an ERF squad- an Emergency Response Force, where one individual- the bigger individual (usually a redneck- there was no intelligence whatsoever), would be holding a giant shield, and he would go running into the cell with four other guards behind him. And they would run, they would tackle or slam a detainee into the wall, or his bench or his faucet, whatever. And then in the quickest, not very caring lackadaisical manner, subdue him and restrain him with the shackles, and after that give him his shot. So a good number of times that happened, detainee’s hands were stepped on and injured, or had their stomachs intentionally kicked in, or perhaps their hand slammed in the door and broken- a number of things like that occurred- it wasn’t an uncommon practice

CP: I know this might be a bit difficult, but it’s a question I must ask - did you personally commit any act you regret against these men, or maybe even that you don’t regret?

TH: No, not in the slightest- something that I don’t regret- something that I’m very happy about. Ever done some abuse- no, there was never once anything. A good number of the detainees – I’m not entirely sure if you’ve had any feedback or heard any of the emails or whatnot, but a good number of detainees referred to me as ‘the nice MP’- the nice one, the good one- I was one of the very few, the Khalid. I didn’t have any issue with Standard Operating Procedures; if the detainee was extremely hungry- giving him extra food wasn’t an issue for me. I didn’t have an issue with shackles- more often than not, if I knew a detainee- we knew each other on a first name basis, I wouldn’t even bother with shackles- I would walk him to the shower, walk him to the rec. yard et cetera- it wasn’t an issue. When I got down there, it became apparent to me quite quickly that there were only a certain number of individuals that were here that had some type of anger or aggression towards the United States- whether it’s wrong for them to fight or not, it’s not very many- it’s far and few. As a result of such wrongful detention or being wrongly accused- if they’re accused, though most of them apparently haven’t been. So, this is wrongful detention- was there a need for such brutality, why is there a need for such force? Why not just become understanding or civil with the situation?

CP: Were you ever abused by any of the detainees?

TH: Um, outside of a playful manner, none that I can think of. It’s kind of an interesting thing to say, a playful manner- perhaps I’d be giving breakfast to a detainee and he’d grab my arm and attempt to pull me into the cell, but it’d be in a playful manner- that he’d look up to me and smile and ‘ha ha ha, don’t get complacent’, and I’d smile and they’d smile- it wasn’t an issue. Some of them may have done that to look out for me, and remind me not to grow complacent; perhaps they were looking out for my well being. But there were some detainees that did want to hurt us and made an effort at every opportunity to hurt us, so perhaps they were…I don’t know

CP: A number of the detainees went on hunger strike for long periods of time…

TH: Dear God. That was a horrible nightmare…

CP: I was going to ask: did you feel that force-feeding was an appropriate response to their protest? Was it humanely carried out? Maybe you can give as many details about that whole period, or periods

TH: Use of force-feeding didn’t occur when I was there; if a detainee didn’t want to eat, it wasn’t an issue- they weren’t served, they weren’t served food, it wasn’t a problem. They’d say they were on hunger strike, and it would be noted in the computer, and as the result of such we wouldn’t serve them food. So actually it would get to the point where some detainees would have to be taken out of the block, would have to be in the hospital, would have to be given food, and under the circumstances I’ be willing to assume it was probably Ensure that they were given- it’s like a formula, a shake. They probably gave out on any given block, say at least a twenty four-person block, probably at least 17 of the detainees were having Ensure. I have no idea on how many countless millions of dollars the US government has spent on Ensure for the detainees. But nonetheless I never saw force-feeding; I never saw anything of that practice. When it got to a point where the detainees’ health was in serious jeopardy, the medics would take care of it- and being that they were naval, they usually had a lot more tact, great deal of politeness, a sense of care to what they were doing- because they were working in the medical profession as opposed to the correctional profession.

BabaGnoni:

That was a light-hearted remark and not necessarily an advice as such

OWK!

BabaGnoni:
Was humoring you to prevent you posting more unfounding claims

Well, i've many undisputable facts.

BabaGnoni:

No, not afraid at all, but just brotherly love & concern that you're on a futile mission

Futile mission? come off it.

BabaGnoni:
Only advised to stop because you're wasting precious time barking up the wrong tree

This is the best i could do for mankind. not saying what i believe but saying the truth.

BabaGnoni:
I am satisfied and content enough, not to go poking nose into Islam or maligning it.

Good for you!

BabaGnoni:
What you learned and that knowledge you're using is sham - you're posting in ignorance

I post ignorance when i'm refuted like up there. but believe me, u can't stand the stuffs.

BabaGnoni:
You actually need to learn by experience,
get or be personal with God, have a Father-Son relationship with God

I've the best relationship that God could have with His creations.
Do you?

BabaGnoni:
then out of your heart will flow rivers of living water et al.

of course yes!

BabaGnoni:
I don't like lying too, as much as you don't and can further admit, also do not condone ignorance

Back then, i was just a muslim 'cos my parents were. I was just doing what they were doing. But now, i feel less important 'cos i was born a muslim. I wish i had known this from the opposing side.

God is the Master of Planner.

Kay 17: That's irrelevant.

It is, 'cos i believe u don't knw what u're saying.

Yeah i love that! Those ignorance are Misusing the name of "Allah".

Imagine those stewpid catholics calling Mary the Mother of Allah. What an insanity.

BrainWashed ChristIANS.

noblefada: @harbibola I believe there is already a thread for this, so to what end and I get an invite to the thread we talked about.

I'm sorry brother! it was Mend that banned me the following day.

Don't worry, i'll create one may be tomorrow.

BabaGnoni:

and don't bother with your "More to come".

An advise

BabaGnoni:
Just stop all, these your balderdash.

^^ oh! it is actually not an advise but an insult, i no vex though.

BabaGnoni:
They are like badly behaving annoying mosquitoes - distracting

And u're afraid of the test on ur christian brothers? man, u need not. Telling me to stop doing this is hypocrisy when 000s of webpages are dedicated to malign Islam. I've never denigrated christianity with a false statement in this forum, not even at once. but we're on this forum together and u can testify on how christians use to attack Islam.

For me, I don't blame anybody 'cos we're all here for a reason. You can try and open a thread like, "Help! I want to embrace Atheism/Paganism," then you'll see the best of Atheists Vs Pagans. We're all on mission, Lieing is what i don't appreciate.

Do you know how disgusting wikiIslam is? that site propelled me into learning about religions and am gonna use my knowledge.



You did a good job upthere, but like i said more is coming, i'm just busy right now. You can address or ignore it when it comes, the choice is urs.

Mynd_44: To what end?

That everyone should avoid of being banned.

Kay 17: ^^
Yes they are all Gods!

Are you a Yoruba?

^^ Mtchew! I initially thought u're using ur brain.
Now, if i respond to the gibberish how would u reply?

NB: At the end of every Seeming/Glaring contradiction as the case may be, an address to the post that will benefit the thread is welcome.

Mynd is watching!

Gen. 36:2-3.
Esau took his wives of the daughter of Canaan; Adah the daughter of Elon the Hittite, and Aholibahah the daughter of Anah the daughter of Zibeon the Hivite.
3. And Bashemath Ishmail's daughter, sister of Nebajoth.
§
§
Gen. 26:34.
When Esau was forty years old, he married Judith daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and also Bashemath daughter of Elon the Hittite.

Can somebody explain this?


More to come!!!

Kay 17: ^^
In yoruba mythology, Gods are those of divine nature. So I don't see where you going by saying Olodumare is the sole God, when there are a plethora of Gods!

Are you placing Olodumare in the same category with Sango, Orunmila, Obatala & co ?

OlaoChi:

I wanted you to explain how esu is a man, since you know so much about the religion that the owners of the religion don't even know

Ma'am? u're beginning to get me wrong. Ve'i said i know more than pagans?

I'm only saying what i knw and it's another case if i'm lying.

Esu was a man like others. Yoruba spirituality attributed several roles to him. He is taken as the Personification of life and death.

Eshu was a man.

^^ These atheists are crA:zy.

^^ These atheists are crAzy.

kambo:

your two succeedg post are spot on. So so true.
In the quran there are overt hints pointg to Jesus as Lord and d dubiousness of islam.
At the end no one will b able to say the serpent made me do it.
They did it of their own will.
Eve used her own bare hands to pluck d forbidden fruit.
She gave Adam who took it with his own hands too. No force.
But wen it all unravelled every1 was lookg for some1 to blame.

Why are u mentioning Quran while talking about Jesus?

This op is a good apologist.

Seeming Contradictions.


*Modified*

cleanvessel:

.......''Jesus the Son of Mary'' In what culture is a man addressed by his mother's name? Who is the father of Jesus?

He had no father.

highyo:

love you sir.
I don't know you bro, but your comment let me understand that, you are not far from the truth.
Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. I believe there is a question mark in your heart that read, which of these ways is right; Christainity or Islamic?
I tell you the truth if you can say this prayer whole heartedly the lord will review the truth to you, and you will be free.

God of Heaven and Earth. The lord of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, review the true way to me. Because I don't want to be condemed on the final day. If you refuse to answer my prayer, I will conclude I'm on the right track. Do not blame me for it God.

I assure you, the lord will review himself to you.

The way you comment makes me know, you are not far from the truth. And the truth is ready to help you if you want him to help you.

Like seriously this dude is in dire need of clinical attention.




*Ruqya can help*

Pastor Olu T:

So Islam never order to kill infidels?

Quran/Islam never but Bible/Christianity does.
I'm not often surprised when i read about attrocities committed by christians 'cos it always goes hand-in-hand with what bible teaches.

Pastor Olu T:

I know you are referring to the atrocities the church committed in the dark ages, ok lets all forget the past 'cos I see the argument going no where. Lets focus on whats happening presently, answer my question Abiola, why will Muslims persecute n kill people in Saudi Arabia n other Islamic countries 'cos they convert to xtianity n other religion?

To ur question: they are doing it due to mistranslation of Islam.
Do you think Islam said Muslim should killed non-muslims?

To the bolded, do you think this age of ours won't dark somedays and the coming generations will refer to it as a dark ages?

Muslims will overcome the current challenges SOONER.