jesusjnr2020:
Jesus said:

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Matthew 5:16

Dear jesusjnr2020
You really put a solid point up there...wonderful...just to chip me something small...
Today...we believers only teach but don't live the life...that's why to impart positively on unbelievers is next to impossibility...or hard.

In Acts of the Apostles 1:1
[1]In my first book I told you, Theophilus, about everything Jesus began to do and teach

Note...Jesus first began to do(live the life of the kingdom) then teach(impact the life of the kingdom)...but today we only speak not teach.

In Acts of the Apostles 11:24,26
[24]Barnabas was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and strong in faith. And many people were brought to the Lord.
[26]When he found him, he brought him back to Antioch. Both of them stayed there with the church for a full year, teaching large crowds of people. (It was at Antioch that the believers were first called Christians.)

In the above scriptures... Barnabas was full of the Holy Spirit and Faith...they(Barnabas and Paul) live the life of the spirit man and faith for full year and teaching (impacting the Holy spirit and faith life) on the people...the people saw the evidence of the life of Christ in them...they believe and confessed that the are people like Christ the av heard about "doing and teaching the kingdom life).

This is the Most effective and biblical way of preaching the kingdom to people.

This is a True and Worthy Saying...

Mikee19:


1) Again proverbs 8 IS NOT Jesus, but I'll show this better then

2) One more time, yes Jesus was less than the Father ON EARTH as the first passage you referenced! Anything other that is now authority (no more greatness over) but again you keep counting the authority one has over another (like a man with his wife) as the fact that he's greater. I have said that this isn't the same thing

It seems you're trying to make me answer this issue right now and are impatient with these continued responses. I have said it over and over again in this forum that that thread is coming! Don't worry I'll be MUCH more detailed there! That's the reason we're having this discussion over and over. I'll be perfectly detailed there, pls wait for it!

Again, it's not that I cannot respond more convincingly than this. I know these scriptures. I can address them even much better. pls wait

Smile...wat shows that one person is greater than the other is AUTHORITY that one exercise over the others...and we really do not differ except the fact that u said Jesus is only less than God wen he was a man...and I accept but I am saying he is still lesser since the salvation mission is not yet complete and Jesus in not yet Joined with the Father but still sitting at the Father's right hand...wen the mission is complete...he will be United and one and equal to the Father... simple
But I will wait for u thread...wen it's ready... mention me...if u have a solid point..who am I...I will sit and learn...but for now I will wait

Mikee19:


Oops, sorry. That usually feels terrible







I'll show why this isn't so



Actually sef we don't have much disagreement points, and much of that new thread wouldn't be for you. From what i can see it's just 1)creation of Jesus (really unscriptural) and 2) Authority over doesn't equal being greater than. All else is in order. But I'll quote you anyways. God bless you too

Smile...I understand u perfectly well and I was once like dat...and u not understanding my Creation point is a misinterpretation of my intention...that doesn't mean I underate Christ or depict his image...no...
1) Jesus said it himself in Proverbs 8 that he was FORMED (though he was living in God but his activeness has a beginning...just like man and his word but wen a man his born...he comes out and den he make sound(word)...but the fact is there was a man before his word though equality is there but we all agree that there cannot be a word without it source(man) ...so also there cannot be a son without a parent...there cannot be Son(Christ/Word) without the Father(yhwh).

2)Jesus himself said in John 14 that the Father is greater than the son...
Please can u explain what Jesus meant in the two passages

Matthew 24:36
[36]“However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or THE SON HIMSELF. ONLY THE FATHER KNOWS.

And
Matthew 20:23
[23]Jesus told them, “You will indeed drink from my bitter cup. But I HAVE NO RIGHT to say who will sit on my right or my left. My Father has prepared those places for the ones he has chosen.”

Mikee19:
immaculatesense although I'm trying very hard to not derail this thread since I'll still create that thread, I'll just point out two errors here:

Let's say there are two persons, one holding a gold wristwatch and another just looking at the same gold wristwatch. Both do not consider that wristwatch "something to be grasped" despite the fact that one is already holding on to it and the second is just looking at it in his front. Here's what this means for both parties:

The first person who doesn't consider the wristwatch "something to be grasped", but who somehow was already holding on to it at first (without thinking), can easily let go of it. It's not that important to him. He can just let it go as despite holding it in the first place he doesn't consider it "something to be grasped"

The second person who is just staring at it without yet holding it may never decide to hold it at all since he doesn't consider it "something to be grasped"! In fact he may even mistakenly touch it without knowing. But once he realizes he's touching it, what he doesn't consider "something to be grasped", he can again readily let go of it.

What am I driving at?

You're using that scripture to show Jesus was never equal to God. It DOES NOT say so at all!

All it says is just that he didn't consider equality with God "something to be grasped"!

Now he may or may not have been equal with God before this, but the scripture is silent on it as it isn't its point. The point is simply what Jesus thought about equality with God, not whether he was equal with God or not. He didn't think it was something important enough "to be grasped"!

Now if he was already equal with God at this time, him not considering equality with God as "something to be grasped" simply would mean that it meant nothing to him, and he could readily let it go! Again, "considering" means "thinking", and that scripture began by admonishing that you have the same "mind" or mindset that Jesus had! It's all about mindset, what Jesus mindset about equality with God was, not whether he was at the time equal with God or not! His mindset was that "this isn't something important enough to be grasped". If he was equal with God and then had this mindset, it just means he can let it go without thinking about it!

On the contrary if he was not equal with God, it'll mean that he wouldn't want to by force BECOME equal with God.

One more time, this scripture is only talking about Christ's mindset, not whether he was equal with God or not! Which is why it is translated differently depending on the bias of the translator:

Phi 2:6 NWT who, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.

Phil 2:6 CEV Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain equal with God.

So you see it proves nothing, but merely confirms the bias a person already has.

Secondly, I think you may be conflating authority over a person with greatness
over them. A man has authority over his wife and she is to submit to him. A man, however, IS NOT greater than his wife! They are equal before God as BEINGS! This is also the relationship the Bible uses in describing God the Father and Christ. Christ submits to the Father's authority, but it's co-equal with him as BEINGS

Lastly, Jesus wasn't mentioned in that proverbs 8 passage. You know that passage refers to "wisdom", even using a female noun form "she calls out" (read the entire thing). Plus the book itself is called "proverbs" = "figure of speech"! But i will show much more thoroughly in my thread at the time that CANNOT represent Jesus!

Dear Mikee19
I mistakenly close tab and I av written alot down on ur mention but it's all gone...I can restart I av gone far and I can't be rewriting and it hurts...but u still av alot to learn on how to relate scriptures especially the old testament to the new and how to find Christ in the Old testament...
But the bottom line is Jesus is the Wisdom of God according to 1 Corinthians 1:24
[24]But to those called by God to salvation, both Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God and the WISDOM of God.

2) It hurts i my hand had to quit paid...I wrote extensively...

Christ was God...he let go of that privilege to save mankind (word became flesh) since u can't separate man from his word...the word of man is the man and enjoy every privilege with the man...so,Christ enjoy that privilege in God of being equated to God...but he had to let go instead of clinging to it. Now that the salvation mission is halfway done...he is sitting (waiting) at the right hand of God(is he still not equal with God as of now since the mission is still ongoing) Matthew 22:44
[44]‘The lord said to my Lord,
Sit in the place of honor at my right hand
    until I humble your enemies beneath your feet.’

When the salvation mission his over and the Judgement has bn passed on mankind (those who refused the salvation of God) that is when 1 Corinthians 15:28 will be fulfilled and Christ will return to being in his initial position of being equal with God.
That was why Jesus told his disciples that one that great day...they will ask no questions because they will know that he is in the Father.

Just quote me wen u create that new thread
God bless you sir

Mikee19:


It is the truth as far as you know, and you don't know it all. Be humble in what you know. You have only seen arguments from jw doctrine and from others who cannot properly teach what God's word says about it. But like I said i have a thread coming soon..

I will show why some scriptures you've used are improperly used. Then you will see it is really you saying this, not those scriptures. I'll do so in that thread

Dear Mikee19
I will be happy wen u create the thread...please Mention me wen u create the thread...thank u...
I don't do denomination...and I don't compare and contrast doctrine...if I don't like a denomination...dat doesn't mean if dey say some thing that I right I shud negate because I don't like Dem...u av seen me counter Dem on most issues...and on the Trinity...they are not total right and not totally wrong...the Pentecostal also are not totally wrong and not totally right...I also showed u from the scriptures...how it is and how it should be taught.
You said humility... humility cannot be shown in words or action... humility is a result of the heart...that is where Pride and Humility reside and it is only God that knows...av u ever wondered why Pride and Humility was never listed as part of the Fruits of the flesh and spirit respectively...?

Dtruthspeaker:


An issue ends when you run to a fresh issue.

Which is why I said raise a new thread if you think you have a valid claim. We would put it down one issue at a time. No new issues, no departure from issue, no invalid arguments, no twistings and bendings and unlawful colourations, no Lies and of course no fallacies.

I don't really like creating thread...I rather I comment...maybe u can mention me on a thread...maybe

Dtruthspeaker:


You did not need to! IT WAS NOT THE ISSUE OF THE DEBATE. Learn to Stick to the issue of the debate without deviation and departures. That's how debates work

Open a fresh thread on any issue you wish to debate with me. That's how it works!

Lol...I know u would wanna run...u didn't tie all the loose ends in ur comment...
Did we receive the holy spirit at Creation or at Salvation?

But u don't need to answer cos any answer u give will contradict one of ur stand or comment u just made...so don't answer...I will save u dat...but please I beseech u to take not of the glitches I mentioned...that's all

Dtruthspeaker:


The spirit of your words says kobojunkie must change by fire and by force. See it

"It is our duty and Joy to keep teaching and praying for them...no soul MUST be lost...even Paul can be saved...him and many more others will come to the light of the truth...WE DONT GIVE UP

Lol...the MUST I used was more of Faith rather than Force...I believewith God all things are possible...not only for Kobojunkie but for all...I love everyone and if it's is possible for me...I would want everyone to be a partaker of the life to come...but who am I...I can only wish and do the best I can both in teaching and in prayer.
Stay alert

Dtruthspeaker:


There is no Re-argument after a debate is concluded! It's Res judicata!

Lol...I gat u...but I understand...
U are great bro...I love u brother

Dtruthspeaker:


See, another CHANGE OF POST all because you want to avoid The Truth I have laid before you.

The question was "Which Spirit does God have, that He would give, when He gives? Is it an Unholy one?" Now you have Changed it to "WHY The Holy Spirit was given" which no one asked!

You do not have any valid way to go!

I only explained the fall of man to u and wat led to his corruption...that av an adverse consequence on his spirit...
Or
What do u think is the Consequence of the fall of man in Genesis 3 to his spirit?
Lol...pls take heed to my advice...u may disclaim it on this forum and I accept for reasons best known to u...but wen it's u alone...work on them and u see a better u

Dtruthspeaker:


See, another CHANGE OF POST all because you want to avoid The Truth I have laid before you.

The question was "Which Spirit does God have, that He would give, when He gives? Is it an Unholy one?" Now you have Changed it to "WHY The Holy Spirit was given" which no one asked!

You do not have any valid way to go!

Lol...I was only telling u wat happened after the fall of man that corrupted his holiness and sanctity of his sport
Or
What do u think is the Consequence of the fall of man in Genesis 3 to his spirit?

Be true to urself...u don't av to admit it...but go and reread our chat and think deeply about it with the scriptures beside u

Dtruthspeaker:


See, now you are twisting it the other way round and bending it again into the lie you wish to hold, when the issue here was simply because I clearly said "Holy God gives Holy Spirit and therefore man had the Holy Spirit when he was created" which you disputed until I showed Mathew 7:17/18.

No fraud escapes me.

Clearly you see the lies you have been taught do not stand, so you are scrambling all over the place to make it stand and I don't want to do so because TRUTH IS STABLE AND COMPLETE.

This debate has long since been over. God is pure and all who want to be with Him must be pure. That is The Law. Holy and unholy can never ever be put together.

Lol...u just keep making me laugh as u contradict urself...
Now u said...every man created have the holy spirit at creation...lol...that means every man is holy den since u urself said man has to be holy to have the holy spirit...lol
If man had received the holy spirit at creation...it means we are already holy from creation...why do we still avto pray for the holy spirit since we already av it from creation?...
Lol...
Sincerely, Dtruthspeaker...go on work on the glitches I spelt out...dis is a faceless forum...so,it's not as though there is more to that...

Dtruthspeaker:


That I will not do for it is easier to force a horse to drink than to get an adult to change his ways exactly, as the Bible tried and it did not work. The Lord Himself tried and yet men refused to listen.

Lol...u make me laugh...force?...hell No...
I said Teaching and Prayer...

Dtruthspeaker:
..

Which Spirit does God have, that He would give, when He gives? Is it an Unholy one?

Can a Mango give bitter kola? Mathew 7:17-18

It is just plain simple common sense!

Ohhh...I now know where the problem lies...u don't know why the holy spirit was given...let me tell u sometin small Sha...cos of time...
Wen God breath into man and he became a living spirit...he was right with God until the devil came with dceit...then the spirit of man that knows only good now knows evil and with time the evil became more prominent.
Genesis 6:5
[5]The lord observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil.

So,the spirit of man was corrupted...so,wen a man believe and receive the Holy spirit...the Holy spirit arrest the spirit of man and take charge. That's why the Bible says "as many as a led by the Spirit of God(Holy spirit),they are the sons and daughters of God"
Romans 8:14
[14]For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.

You can see that the spirit comes first to make us right with God(holy) and not that we are already right with God before we have the Holy spirit.

That is why I quote more scriptures on any statement I want to make...cos by the grace of God (aside Polygamy) there is no topic I don't know every passages of the scriptures that talks about that topic...before I make a conclusion...I must av compared all passages leaving no stone unturned...incsae some ask a question...I will be caught unprepared.

Dear Dtruthspeaker...these are the little glitches I noticed in ur interpretation TECHNIQUE...If u can make little adjusted on these areas...u are good to go.
God bless u

Dtruthspeaker:


Good! Since you know and have admitted that God is The Holy Spirit, what then did Mathew 7:17-18 teach?

Answer:" A Mango can never give bitter kola!"

Therefore, The Holy, must give The Holy! That is The Law!

My case is rested!

Matthew 7:17-18
[17]A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit.
[18]A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit.

Now I realize the little glitches u av in Bible interpretation...u don't know which one comes first...
Ohhh...u think a holy man house the holy spirit...instead it should be...
The Holy spirit in man makes man holy...

That the little misinterpretation that affected ur interpretation...u don't know wat does wat first.

Dtruthspeaker:


3 or 4 years back he even moved from being slightly pro-God to full blown Anti-God and supported all the works of atheists, with many asking him are you an atheist or something.

Then when he saw God overcoming their arguments he then transformed to the rubbish we see today.

He is definitely still suffering from the mental imbalance he once confessed that he was afflicted with.

That is the story of kobojunkie over the period of time I have seen.

It is our duty and Joy to keep teaching and praying for them...no soul must be lost...if Paul can be saved...him and many more others will come to the light of the truth...WE DONT GIVE UP

Mikee19:


1) I had seen you say Jesus was created before. This is a misunderstanding of scripture

2) Of course the Father was greater than Jesus when he was a man! That's a given! You can see why that can be true

3) You said Jesus will return to live IN God. But when he does, who is greater than who, when God is only ONE BEING since Jesus now lives in him AS A SINGLE BEING?! It's like saying I'm greater than my blood inside me. This make no sense at all whatsoever anymore for one who's living INSIDE God as a single being with him

4) That version obscures 1 Cor 15 that you quoted saying Jesus will "put himself under God's authority" as tho he's not one God with the Father

if you just make these adjustments, you'll see where you've been lacking

Dear Mikee19
What I told u about the Trinity is the truth about the Trinity...it is real but it had not been taught the way it should...every point I ever make on any topic are Yeah and Amen cos I don't think...I let the Bible still...
You listed four(4) things up there...let me speaking on them one after the other...not me but the Bible.
There were two separation (one for creation and one for Salvation)

1) You said I said "Jesus was created"
Not me...but the Bible said so...now Read...and take note of the words put in capital...
Firstborn means two things in Greek (a) to be born first in orderly manner (b) to be a prototype of an experiment.
Proverbs 8:22
[22]“The lord FORMED me from the beginning,
    before he created anything else.

You can see it not me...the Word Form means Made or Created. Someone must av done the FORMING right and that person is the Father.

Proverbs 8:24-25
[24]I was BORN before the oceans were created,
    before the springs bubbled forth their waters.
[25]Before the mountains were formed,
    before the hills, I was BORN—

The word Born means to be brought forth,Produced. Someone was born...so,someone must av done the giving birth right?...we believe it's the Father.

You can see it's not me...it is the Person Himself that was saying of Himself..."I was FORMED...I was BORN"...Not me...

2) You said the Father is greater than Jesus wen he was a man alone...
Okay let me show something...
Mark 14:62
[62]Jesus said, “i am. And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 16:19
[19]When the Lord Jesus had finished talking with them, he was taken up into heaven and sat down in the place of honor at God’s right hand.

Jesus is talking about his second coming here...he was no longer a man...but still he earn a place with God that Put everything else under him... except the Father himself as proven in 1 Corinthians 15:27
[27]For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.” (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)
You can see even Paul stated it clear that someone gave someone authority. Similar to Pharaoh and Joseph in Genesis 41:40
[40]You will be in charge of my court, and all my people will take orders from you. Only I, sitting on my throne, will have a rank higher than yours.”

3) You have a point in ur third assertion...but I stated it clearer...u used the analogy of man and his blood...that analogy does not apply to God and Christ...the best analogy that fits will be a man and his word since Christ is the Word of God...now let me explain the next verse I did not quote to u...I only quoted verse 27...now read verse 28 urself...
1 Corinthians 15:28
[28]Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.

You can see...the relationship between God and His Word...it is a known fact that Man has control over his own word. Since Christ has fulfilled his assignment..."he put himself under God authority"
But u raised a crucial point...since Christ return to being God's word and living inside him...can a man be separated or differentiated from his word?
Now Read Philippians 2:6
[6]Though he was God,
    he did not think of equality with God
    as something to cling to.

In that other thread I explained why "WAS" was used in both Philippians 2:6 and John 1:1...but the summary is...when the Salvation assignment is fulfilled...the Son and the Spirit will return to the Father and ALL will be ONE Father who is the One and Only True God.
"...God will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere" vs 28b.

4) Quote me any version or versions that suite u and I will show u they av the same interpretation...the original meaning are unchanged.

That's the Truth about the True interpretation of The Trinity.

Dtruthspeaker:
..

Which Spirit does God have? Is it an Unholy one?

It is just simple common sense!

God is the Holy spirit...is anyone contesting that? NO

But the breath breathe into man was what we are talking about here that will return back to God after death...this are two different things like I av quoted for u
Romans 8:16
[16]For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children.

MaxInDHouse:


I know that you appreciate knowledge but you don't feel like being part of it rather you want to stick to falsehood yet claiming you're part of the truth.

You're my neighbour for sure and it's under must that i love you as i love myself {Mark 12:31} most of you don't know what that really mean well it simply means i should do whatever i will do to you as i would myself. So at times i do deprive myself some things just as Jesus also do deprive himself of some things. Matthew 4:3-4
But as for my brother i must love him exactly the same way Jesus loves me {John 13:34-35} which means i must be prepared to surrender my life if the need be for my brother in the faith! John 15:12-13

So i love you as my neighbour just as i would everyone around me but not the same way i love my brothers in the truth! Galatians 6:10

Smile...

Mikee19:
On the other hand immaculatesense, I'm quite surprised at your understanding of matters such as these (receiving the Holy Spirit) for one who doesn't quite see the divinity of Jesus. Well i guess that's due to it not being taught very properly, as well as mis-teachings of the Jws... Good stuff you've put here

Are u taking about me not believing in the divinity of Jesus?...
Are u kidding me...I believe 100%
The only thing that i kept saying is what Christ says which is that "the Father is greater than the Son"...so I believe that there is Hierarchy in the Godhead which is that the Father is the One True God and the greatest of all.
I have explained dis times and times again. That's why some people sometimes thing I am JW but no...I am Pentecostal but I don't support the Trinity misinterpretation...u know am not subjective no matter the topic
Like I said Trinity was trimmed from Tri+unity=Trinity
Tri= three
Unity=Unity in purpose or aim

So,the Father and the Son and the Spirit (three) are United in Purpose.
But that doesn't take the fact that the Father is greater than the Son and controls the spirit...
Now read these two verses
John 14:28
[28]Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really loved me, you would be happy that I am going to the Father, who is greater than I am.

John 14:26
[26]But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.

You can see that it is the Father giving direction and authority. And when the mission is fulfilled...the son will hand everything over to the Father and return to live IN the Father as the word(his initial position and glory)

1 Corinthians 15:28
[28]Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.

You can read clearly that the son will put himself UNDER the authority of the Father.

The only thing I against the JW for claiming that Jesus is Angel Michael and I av prove the fault of that teaching over and over again.

This is the True Teaching and Worthy Saying
Thank u

Dtruthspeaker:


See, 2 CHANGES OF POST! The issue was before the Holy Spirit Come and not when the Holy Spirit Comes.

2) The issue was you wanted me to prove that those who received The Holy Spirit were holy hence your quest in the Samaria event Which I showed you, so case closed.

There is no room to bring in your own ideas or thinkings, for that is not what the case is about.



Without going into fresh argument I'll just say this, you forget Genesis 2:7 and John 1:3,4 and 9 and all the scriptures which inform us that without Him, WE WOULD NOT BE ALIVE NOR LIVING.

SO, WE ALREADY HAVE HIS SPIRIT! No argument here.

Dear Dtruthspeaker
Lol...Genesis 2:7 and John 1:3,4 and 9 u quoted was never talking about the holy spirit. Genesis 2:7
[7]Then the lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man’s nostrils, and the man became a living person.

Genesis 2:7 was talking about the spirit of man not the holy spirit (only a believer has the holy spirit not man generally)

Have u ever read Romans 8:16
[16]For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children.

You see?
1) His Spirit (holy spirit)
2) Our spirit (conscience/consciousness/life/breath that departs from man after death)

Problem with people is that u people do not research the Bible through and through before passing comment or interpreting a verse of the scriptures...don't get me wrong... nobody is all knowing but u need to be sure before passing a comment cos people could be slightly and dangerously misled...for instance...u can never see me comment on Polygamy cos I have not finished reading through and through the scriptures to compare and contrast objectively and know wat is wat...so for now I would rather read than comment.

Go and keep learning and avoid commenting on issues u don't know every scriptures that talks about it. Please humbly take this as an advice and not insult.
Thank you

Mikee19:


Oooh is kobojunkie male or female? Have I been addressing wrongly? Anyways I'll now show the foolishness of this. This exactly is what I was trying to show to everyone...

He/she is quite right to believe the gospels. But foolish to not believe them completely, for the very words of Jesus himself plainly declared that he COULD NOT finish teaching the disciples all he had to teach them, not because he Jesus Christ did not have the ability to do so in himself, but because they DID NOT have the capacity to receive it all since they couldn't understand it. I mean the same Jesus COULD NOT perform miracles where ppl didn't receive him! Did that make him any less powerful? Why would the fact that the disciples could not understand the "much more" he had to tell them make him less so, so that he had to teach or forfeit all else he had to teach them?

This was the question he couldn't answer to, even tho it is self-evident from the very words of Jesus himself! He simply doesn't believe Jesus at all, or else he'll have believe what Jesus said "I have be so much more to tell you that I cannot tell you now because you won't understand them. But i will tell you through the Holy Spirit". I mean how much clearer can that get! Anyone who really believes Jesus will look for that "much more" that Jesus said he would tell them later by his Spirit in the words of the apostles. Very foolish not to believe Jesus himself. This is why he had problems with answering a very simple question...

On the other hand he also recognizes that this must be what is meant by the words of Jesus, for he goes on to acknowledge that THERE WERE INDEED FURTHER REVELATIONS GIVEN which he acknowledged are contained in the book of Revelations. This is really a contradiction tho. If Jesus did finish all of he had to say on earth, then there's no way he could come back again to tell them something further in the book of Revelations! It's either he finished or he didn't. He recognizes that he had to come back to tell them further things, but decides to "cherry pick" that it must only be one book and nothing else, having no other yardstick to judge this but "this is the book I feel doesn't contradict the gospels, but i certainly feel that the epistles contradict", because Revelations is as much a letter by the apostle John as Galatians is by Paul. He only chooses to believe John when he details that Jesus sent his Angel to show him those things and he didn't dream them himself (because let's face, can he not have? What's the yardstick to determine he wasn't lying, but Paul was? Nothing really, except "I feel so, so it must be true!)

NKJV Rev 22:6,8-10: "⁶ Then he said to me, “These words are faithful and true.” And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must shortly take place. … ⁸ Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. ⁹ Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” ¹⁰ And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand."

Paul said something similar, yet with no reason at all (except "i feel so, so this MUST be true!", he feels he's lying


NKJV Ga 1:11-12,16-17; 2:6: "¹¹ But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. ¹² For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. … ¹⁶ to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, ¹⁷ nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus. … But from those who seemed to be something— whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man— for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me."

So believe John but disbelieve Paul. John tells the truth but Paul lies. Quite foolish really. No logic to it...

On the one hand he declares that nobody can add to what Jesus said on earth, but then goes on to acknowledge that Jesus himself did so in the book of Revelations, only to deny it wasn't him who did so in the other epistles. Indeed he's right in saying nobody can add a thing to that Jesus himself teaches. He did so on earth, plainly told them he wasn't done, then continued to do so through his Spirit! This is why he cannot answer the question "was Jesus done" when Jesus very plainly said "I still have MANY THINGS to tell you..." = I am not done yet!

Indeed the reason Jesus could not teach them all he would have wanted to teach them was because these were men yet unsaved, without the Spirit who could have opened up their capacity to receive spiritual truths. It was not a limitation of Jesus, but of the disciples. Yet this is where he chooses to camp, in the realm of the unsaved without the Spirit hence without capacity to receive much spiritual truth, rather than come over to the epistles where they were now saved and with the Spirit and can now receive much more, hence taught much more, the "much more" Jesus had to teach them that they didn't have capacity to receive at the time due to their limitation (not Jesus')!

Foolishness is when you don't realize that Jesus is powerful; he can use MANY MEANS to teach, not only in person! He said he'll use his Spirit to continue. Why not take him for his words? Or rather why pick and choose where you'll believe he can use his Spirit to teach is only Revelations, but not powerful enough to do so enough to use whatever means he so desired to teach them in giving revelation by his Spirit but must do so in person... Delusion grandeur at it's peak!

You will NOT want to have anything remotely logical to do with a person as this. Avoid for your sanity

I read what u wrote...and u are correct...I just hope people reading on this forum(religion) can decipher or discern the Wheat from the Tares...

MaxInDHouse:


I have told you from the start that you are not my brother, you can't be my brother and you will never be my brother if you're not one of JWs.
So hold onto whatever you want to believe you and i aren't on the same page!

You are my Brother and I love you no matter where u belong JWs are great people and I love them all... including you

Mikee19:
On the other hand immaculatesense, I'm quite surprised at your understanding of matters such as these (receiving the Holy Spirit) for one who doesn't quite see the divinity of Jesus. Well i guess that's due to it not being taught very properly, as well as mis-teachings of the Jws... Good stuff you've put here

Dear Mikee19
Thank u so much for ur compliment...i believe to interpret the scriptures correctly...one has to be objective and unbiased to whether I am Catholic, Pentecostal, witnesses, Baptist, Orthodox,etc...all have their fault and a prone to changes as time passes...only the word of God does not change...it is Rigid.
Psalms 119:89
[89]Your eternal word, O  lord,
    stands firm in heaven. (NLT)

MaxInDHouse:


I've told you that if you want to learn then enroll but if you think you already have your own religion, no wahala.

Jesus' disciples were talking about someone who believes and teaches what he had Jesus teaching so he's already with them in the spirit!
But after the Holy Spirit has chosen the elders and Apostles in JERUSALEM all believers must report to the Apostles and elders in Jerusalem {Act 2:42} so that all disciples may have the same line of thought! 1Corinthians 1:10 compare John 17:20-23

That's why the names of those through whom everyone must learn about Jesus were inscribed in heaven! Revelations 21:14

If you're not connected to that source then you are not one of us!

No denomination can lay claim to the soirce or foundation...the foundation is solidly layed and every leader only builds on it...but ur impossible anyways...do u even wish anyone to perish...if I can av my way...even the most wicked person will enter the rest of God...but God is the decider...so,why will u even look for way to discredit instead of having a heart dat even find the slightest reason to justify people. Seems u preach to fulfil a commission...I preach to win souls and not to FULFIL a commission as priority (fulfilment is not my priority but to bring people to Christ with the slightest of opportunity not looking for slightest way to discredit people)
1 Corinthians 3:4-5,9-11
[4]When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world?
[5]After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us.
[9]For we are both God’s workers. And you are God’s field. You are God’s building.
[10]Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.
[11]For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ.

Dtruthspeaker:


And this is what is called CHANGE OF POST! The issue was you did not know that The Holy Spirit falls only on those qualified by God to receive it and that those persons on whom it is given to are people who we, men would have called holy except that I respect that it is exclusively within God's jurisdiction to do so and not mine. Therefore, I refrain from commenting further than this.

The issue is not about faith and what you think it is, hence CHANGE OF POST!

And the QUALIFICATIONS is Faith...simple...
When the holy Spirit come...the RESULT is Holiness.
You can't be acceptably holy without the holy spirit in you...how will u possibly do dat without the holy spirit?

Dtruthspeaker:


Do you see this is a crazy statement, "One must be holy there is time frame"?

Meanwhile time frame is not the issue and I have shown you the things God would uses to mark a person holy.

I am staying in my place in not doing God's Job of judging "this person is holy" which is the sin you want me to commit as you people easily do.

As you have seen I have pleaded the facts as you have even tested and now see, that those who received The Holy Spirit are those who we little men, would say that they are in a state that we would have called holy except that we respect the fact that it is God Who is the One Who hands down the judgement of Holiness, which is proven by the giving of His Holy Spirit as you yourself showed by stating Ephesians 1:132; Corinthians 1:22

So, this case is closed and you are just going round seeking a new way to re-argue as shown by the remainder of your comments most especially as I have shown you how it applied in Samaria as you requested and you do not have a valid objection.

So, you are raising New issues (your w
wrong opinion of good work traveling all the way back to Paul's conversion {and funny you say conversion, yet you still call him a murderer, as if being born again is not a conversion. I don't want to go into all that here.} for argument and re-argument, which is not a valid counter.

If you are interested in pursuing these matters, raise a fresh thread and quote me, I would meet you there.

But on this and on this issue, you really do not have a good opposition. You lost this one.



As long as you see that it took days, which you have just impliedly admitted, I am in order.



Not in issue at all!



Fresh Issue! I know what it means even if you do not. But as I said, New Issue, New thread!



New Issues! What does the bolded truly mean? I know what it means but from the way you argue, you still don't know and you would fall when I argue against you. But this is not the place and others have said everything you are going to say and they never stood against me. So new thread if you think you can validly stand and show that I am Wrong.



When the Bible has already clearly told us what he did not have! See, now you are cancelling what the Bible said and adding to it.

You don't know what you are talking about.

U are just (politely) something else...u seem confused...
I av explained to u wat bn right with God is from the scriptures which is Faith which Simon lacks.
I av shown ur dat the time people receivedthe holy spirit in the scriptures varies. The apostles for instance waited for over three years... Cornelius, immediately...Paul, immediately...the Samarians... PROBABLY some few days...
Some did not receive before they were ignorant...they haven't heard about the holy spirit...they believe in Jesus but u can't av faith in wat u av not heard about...wen they heard about the holy spirit...they had faith and dey received IMMEDIATELY...
Read Acts of the Apostles 19:1-2,5-7
[1]While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior regions until he reached Ephesus, on the coast, where he found several believers.
[2]“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” he asked them.“No,” they replied, “we haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”
[5]As soon as they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
[6]Then when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in other tongues and prophesied.
[7]There were about twelve men in all.

Bottom line is...there is no biblical timeframe...only have Faith.

MaxInDHouse:


No matter how you run you can't hide away from the truth so stop deceiving yourself.

Whatever you hear from me only comes from Jehovah's Witnesses organization so if you're not ready to join us forget it, you're not on the same page with us! Luke 11:23; 2John 10-11

From ur words people can notice that u preach division and if ur not with us ur against us mentality...
I preach unity in the body if Christ..no matter ur race,colour, language,nation, denomination etc...as long as the banner is Christ...no matter who u are and wer ur from...u are my brother and we are one...
Luke 9:49-50
[49]John said to Jesus, “Master, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he isn’t in OUR GROUP.”
[50]But Jesus said, “Don’t stop him! Anyone who is not against you is for you.”

If Jesus can do dat...who am I to segregate?

MaxInDHouse:


Who defined tithe, man or God?

When God declared that Israelites are robbing Him does it sound as if He's joking?

Ọmọ it's either you learn or stay on your lane.

The OP neither believe in God or the Bible so his mission is to make God's word sound stupid that's why i have to tell him that God's law is perfect and it will always be there.

Apostle Paul explained that when there is a change in priesthood there is also a necessity of the law. Hebrews 7:11-12

So we are still paying our tithes but rather than paying with material possessions we now pay with our time.

For your information, that's what Jesus meant when he said "store up treasures for yourself where thieves can't break in" {Matt 6:19-20} before anyone can pay tithes in the old covenant he/she must acquire material things out of which he must bring tenth of it to the temple, while he/she owns these things thieves can break in to rob him of his valuables because they also want those things, but in the new arrangement thieves don't value what Jesus is demanding as our high priest which is our time.

So among Jehovah's Witnesses the most valued members are those who spends more of their time in preaching and teaching about God's Kingdom because materially speaking they don't worth much but before the true God they worth more than Bill Gate or Elon Musk!

In your pentecostal churches those moneybags are most valued members yet you want to equate such a shrine of Mammon with God's organization.

No way!

It's either you submit to God's organization or keep to your lane!

Dear MaxinDHouse
You still available alot to learn on teaching and understanding...u are always not straight forward and conflicting...on wat u just put up now...I am 100% in support...but I don't know...wen u want to reply this my comment now...u will still write something that will conflict wat u put up there.
So,pls don't reply or reply without avin to talk much or at all again...wat u put up now is perfect...don't water it down again...

And I av always told u...maybe ur advertising for free Sha...this ur sectionalism mentality...u need to work on it ooo...u don't av to join the group called Jehovah's witnesses before u can be a child of God...it is never a prerequisite...Christ alone is...

MaxInDHouse:


We are on parallel lines that can never meet so you and i aren't on the same page it's either you humbly learn or stay on your lane!

Learn when ur saying nothing...u keep maneuvering. The question was simply...should we pay tithe(money or substance)?...my answer and analysis was clear as regards the law and it requirements to the Jew and the role of gentile Christians in keeping or not keeping the law.

But u MaxinDHouse has posted two different and conflicting views on the straight forward topic...ur neither here nor there and u want anyone to learn...come clean bro...it's a simple question

Dtruthspeaker:


I did not say so o. I said "Acts 10:2 clearly SHOWS THE TYPE OF LIFE CORNELIUS WAS ALREADY LIVING AND THE TYPE OF MAN HE WAS long before God Moved and gave him Holy Spirit.



Surely it is clear that God requires people "to do the good according to what He hath Commanded" and not the evil. Deuteronomy 6:18

And Acts 10:2 shows Cornelly ticking them. And we do not see him doing any wrong or evil thing.

That is my point!

I am not the judge of holiness but certainly doing wrongs and unrightness does not lead to holiness, that one I can say.



Verse 6 tells you "they gave heed" and verse 13 shows you good time had passed before God Again Moved, and made the apostles act in Verse 14 and 15.

And as you see, unholy Simon was cut off. And lo what was Peter's answer to him?
"thy heart is not right in the Sight of God" .Acts 8:21

Verse 22 shows that he was in wickedness and in iniquity.

So clearly, the others who got The Holy Spirit were guiltless.

Dear Dtruthspeaker
Your not being sincere...wat led to this discussion was wen u opine sat one must be holy before one can receive the holy spirit...but I like others told u that there is no time frame...it requires salvation and faith.
Firstly u talk about good works of Cornelius...yes but he needs salvation to be saved because a good house without a foundation is useless... Christ being the only foundation...any good works built on such foundation is filthy not holy...Read Isaiah 64:6a
[6]We are all infected and impure with sin.
    When we display our righteous deeds,
    they are nothing but filthy rags.

Can u see that Cornelius was not holy before salvation but after salvation...cos "Justification is by faith,not by good works" but works compliment faith...but good works means nothing without the foundation of faith.

Secondly,u talked about the Samarian people and Simon...now let me explain that passage to u...but first read on Saul/Paul's conversation in Acts of the Apostles 9:17
[17]So Ananias went and found Saul. He laid his hands on him and said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road, has sent me so that you might regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Can u see,Paul a murderer and a persecutor of the church received the Holy Spirit the same day he believed...let me retrate again... Salvation and Faith is the requirements for the Holy Spirit...once He comes, He parterns and shapens our lives in a way that means the "righteous requirement of the Lord". Read Romans 8:2,4
[2]And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death.
[4]He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.

Now back to Act 8 (Samarian crowd and Simon the magician)
The Bible did not tell us the number of days it took the Samarians to receive the holy spirit but the Bible said immediately Peter and John arrived... IMMEDIATELY (note the requirement that made the Church send Peter and John was that the Samarians BELIEVED and ACCEPT the gospel)
Acts of the Apostles 8:14-15
[14]When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God’s message, they sent Peter and John there.
[15]As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new believers to receive the Holy Spirit.

Now on Simon...
You said something very important but u don't understand wat it means...u said "the heart is not right in the sight of God".The question is wat does that statement means and wat does it mean to be right with God".
Read and learn sir...Read Romans 3:22
[22]We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

Now without reasonable argument,u can see with bn right with God means and wat Simon lacked

Simon did not receive the holy spirit because he did not have faith (this is important,there is a difference between to believe and to have faith)...that was why,when others were receiving the holy spirit,he was left out and he wanted to Lobby(pay) to buy the holy spirit. Remember the holy spirit knows the heart of every man.

Conclusion
All u have to do is to believe in the name of the Lord just and have faith that the Person of the Holy Spirit is for you and ur children (i.e generations to come). Read careful this most important and first teaching on the holy spirit by Peter. Read Acts of the Apostles 2:38-39
[38]Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
[39]This promise is to you, to your children, and to those far away—all who have been called by the Lord our God.”

God bless u

MaxInDHouse:


Whatever makes your church demands what Jesus didn't demand it simply means the spirit they're worshiping there is not the God that send Jesus.
Most of you wish that God will accept all the different forms of worship you people are putting up in the name of Jesus but know today that it's not so you're worshiping demons pretending to be angels of light. 2Corinthians 11:14
Those leading in your churches knows this fact that's why they will never agree with you that paying money in form of tithes is wrong. Matthew 24:11

Babylon the Great is the world empire of false religion where each of you can switch from one lane to another in the name of Jesus {Matthew 7:13-14} but that's not pure worship according to Jesus all of us must have the same line of thought! John 17:20-23

Jesus said Get out of Babylon the Great {Revelations 18:4} because it's the mother of all false religions claiming denominations in Christendom with contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines!

U are confused man...why is ur teachings conflicting in itself...
But don't worry...I give up on u as regards dis issue...cos ur speaking from two sides of ur mouth...so confusing