shymmex: All the guys in the religion section sound the same to me...

They're all nutters!!

That section needs to be change to the psychotic section..

Mods, take note..

Buzugee and Logic101/logicmind/logic1 etc. are the top nutters..

Very wrong..they are very distinguished gentlemen on that section...

@Mazaje What do you think about evidence-based juju/voodoo and black magic?

I did, man, still don't see what you probably want me to see.

Does God commit an immorality when He Himself "breaks" a law under which He is not bound? I think not. The law was given to men by God not the other way around. And God is not at all obliged to bind Himself to requirements He lays upon men.


To which laws can we say God is bound to? or is he above the law? will you obey a father who says one things and does the opposite?

You will have to excuse the unavailability of my Bible at the moment. I will definitely provide you with the passage that contains the information I just gave you, but I cannot do so right now.

However, your signature says something about a mining professional. Is that you? If it is, tell me if you plan for contingencies whenever you set about opening up a mine. If you do, then you do in a small way the same thing God did before creating anything: allow and provide for every contingency that would show up in the course of time once He created.

While I said that God established His Victory before the battle even began, I never said that He organised any battle? When did the battle start? I'm not sure about the relevance of that question, but shortly after God had created man, Satan enters the picture as an adversary. So it was very early in creation.

Sir, you have to be sure as a Christian....

mazaje:

Sure, its possible the universe has a creator or creators, there is no concrete evidence for such but i personally allow the possibility for such. . .Since there is no signature evidence for such an assumption, i just leave it as a possibility. . .What I do know is that NON of the god/gods of man made religion has anything to do with the universe since such gods are all a creation of men. . .


No one knows, people are only speculating. . .I do not believe in the "it is either god or its nothing concept". I am very OK with the I don't know option since that is the fact anyway. .No body knows. . .As such no one can provide any evidence at all. . .So far all we have are speculations and mythologies proffered as evidence. . .



Yep

Ok so you agree fully with me them ok lets move on.....

What is your strongest argument in favor of Universal atheism?

Mr_Anony:
Read up about Krishna, He was born at some point.


It is not an assumption, the nature of brahman will contradict itself if it attempts to judge morality. Read through my discourse with martian


Jehovah is a tripersonal God, The Son is not a creation, The Son, The Holy Ghost and The Father are three persons in absolute harmony. In the Trinity, Love exists before all creation.

Allah is one alone. He couldn't possibly love anything before creation. If he created anything and loved it, then he fell in love with it, so he cannot have perfect love.

You cannot know the taste of tuna without tasting tuna.

I strongly disagree with both points....

First Bolded... Biblically you can't prove it and i can't believe you have faith in a doctrine set up by a non-believing emperor and the council on Nicea...Secondly,Did Jehovah fall in love or hate humans?

Sorry guys, couldn't help the delay Well, I'm here now and taking mkmyers45 first



I'm ignoring the bolded part for now. It may yet prove relevant.

First bolded. Why does "leadership by example" come to your mind?
Second bolded. How does God go back on His Word in this regard?

Sir, look closely at the bolded

- Yahweh is an immoral God because He commanded the extermination of the Amalelites among other things. I have found this argument established with the fact that Yahweh had given as one of His commandments, Thou shalt not kill. As it is said, is the lawgiver not greater than the law? Does God commit an immorality when He Himself "breaks" a law under which He is not bound? I think not. The law was given to men by God not the other way around. And God is not at all obliged to bind Himself to requirements He lays upon men.

The Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world (Pardon the fact that I can't give you the reference for this Scripture right now, I'm away from my Bible at present). That is, God established His Victory before there was even a battle. Furthermore, "the angels that kept not their first estate...hath he reserved in everlasting chains under darkness until the judgment of the great day" as Jude 6 says.
That things are well planned and accounted for without violating the will of any of His intelligent creation is not to say that human existence is a game show. It only says that the God Who made humans is far more intelligent than some of us might like

I am sorry i am not satisfied with your answer....maybe its better you use back-up scripture and explain better in your own understanding how the lamb was pre-slain and why even organize the battle in the first place? and please when did this battle take place so we can draw a time-line?

Martian:

Then, the virgin Mary had a little Lamb.

Mary had a little lamb,
whose fleece was white as snow.

And everywhere that Mary went,
the lamb was sure to go.

It followed her to school one day
which was against the rules.

It made the children laugh and play,
to see a lamb at school.

And so the teacher turned it out,
but still it lingered near,

And waited patiently about,
till Mary did appear.

"Why does the lamb love Mary so?"
the eager children cry.

"Why, Mary loves the lamb, I know."
the teacher did reply.

Why, Mary loves the Lamb, because.
Lamb saves the world

What do we call Mary's Lamb
Lamb is Jesus Christ.

GEJ should stop saying things that make him suspicious...

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Please note that i am happy you opened up this thread as you promised....I am not an atheist and we will gently address all issues.

- Yahweh is an immoral God because He commanded the extermination of the Amalelites among other things. I have found this argument established with the fact that Yahweh had given as one of His commandments, Thou shalt not kill. As it is said, is the lawgiver not greater than the law? Does God commit an immorality when He Himself "breaks" a law under which He is not bound? I think not. The law was given to men by God not the other way around. And God is not at all obliged to bind Himself to requirements He lays upon men.

I am sorry sir but i disagree with you strongly....why will you a true 'source' of morality as many claim him too not uphold a standard he sets....Leadership by example comes to mind on this one....maybe God asked them to claim so they can fully claim the land or eliminate God's enemies but that dosent account for the fact that he should go back on his word...

- Yahweh is a weak God for not destroying Satan up till now. This argument stands on the assumption that Satan's continued existence and activity implies God's powerlessness against him. But such an assumption is illogical. It is a little like saying that my deliberate ignorance of a mosquito amounts to my inability to kill it. Perhaps I'm ignoring it because I've already made sure of its death. Such a scenario is what the Bible holds: that Satan is not currently in a war with God but is currently in defeat and is only awaiting the carrying out of his sentence. That he is still active does not at all negate this, rather does it show that there might (I use that word for the sake of argument) be depth in God's wisdom concerning Him.

Sir, this question has been answered in various ways by numerous people but if i may ask you sir....If you can see tomorrow and a strong enemy of yours is arising today to trouble you tomorrow...do you smite the enemy today or wait till tomorrow? Sometimes this scenario you just painted makes human existence look like a game show.

mazaje:

Sure, the universe could be god for whom ever wishes to give it that label. . .My position is if the universe has a creator or creators no body know what it is or what they are, every body is just speculating, the hypothesis that religions proffer of the creator or creators of the universe if anything like that exist deserving worship, answering prayers, speaking the human language, interacting with them, having a chosen men, or a right religion is all FALSE and pure DELUSION. . . .All religions and the gods they worship are man made, 5000 years ago in ancient egypt Ra was the only god, Jesus god and allah god as we now know them came into existence 2000 and 1400 years old respectively, before then gods like zeus, Amun etc were the true gods to various people depending on their location. . .

I do not care about the origin of life because nobody knows that for sure, all the hypothesis and speculations out there do not have substantial evidence to back them up as such I reject all of them. . . Some are more valid than others though. . .Some religious creation myth make more sense than others. . .But all are myths and that's all they are. . .

So

- You are of the opinion that the universe may actually be the work of a creator
- Origin of life is a question without a 'truly universal' answer?

I hope my assumptions are right

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mazaje:

God is a loaded term. . .Its possible that the universe was created by something or so many things, I don't know and I don't care because we as humans do not have the answer for now. . .Its also possible that the universe self created it self. . .[/b]I do not know and do not care. . .[b]All I know is that the universe was NOT created by Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu, Palagon, and all the other gods of man made religions. Humans created this gods for various reasons. . . like to help explain away many things they couldn't or because the want to propagate their own ideas, way of life and use it to dominate others. . .

Ok ....Firstly we have pantheist who believe the universe as the god....Secondly What if the true 'creator,catalyst,supernatural being,god etc' in question is either unknown, unpronounced or exclusive to human knowledge? As a professing atheist im finding hard to believe that you dont have a clear-cut stance on life origin which is the key to the 'god' question....

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Mr_Anony:

Ok so we all agree that they are all supreme but then there cannot be multiple supremes, there can only be one supreme. We'll start by comparing who is more supreme than the other.

Krishna fails at this point because Krishna has an origin and was not powerful enough to bring himself to be so he is not supreme enough he's out of the race.
The Sikh Holy Gurus were men (at least to the best of my knowledge) and this also dents their supremeness. They are also out of the race.
This leaves us with Allah and Yahweh who many believe to be the same but they can't be the same as one is monopersonal and the other is tripersonal. Now Allah by his nature contradicts his very essence because the muslims believe that Allah can love but that raises the question. If Allah can love, who or what did he love before the creation? If love came after the creation, it implies that love is not subject to allah but allah is subject to love. Allah is now out of the race.

We are left with Yahweh who I put it to you satisfies all the criteria better than anything else you can put up.

Trinity believer eh?

So you're trying to say that the creation was an accidental experiment to Allah as he didnt love humans or have a son? Come to think of it...what did jehovah love? his son which was still a creation of his?

Mr_Anony:

Nonsense, Brahman is incapable of moral judgment

and on what grounds do you make this assumption?

Mr_Anony:

Ok so we all agree that they are all supreme but then there cannot be multiple supremes, there can only be one supreme. We'll start by comparing who is more supreme than the other.

Krishna fails at this point because Krishna has an origin and was not powerful enough to bring himself to be so he is not supreme enough he's out of the race.
The Sikh Holy Gurus were men (at least to the best of my knowledge) and this also dents their supremeness. They are also out of the race.
This leaves us with Allah and Yahweh who many believe to be the same but they can't be the same as one is monopersonal and the other is tripersonal. Now Allah by his nature contradicts his very essence because the muslims believe that Allah can love but that raises the question. If Allah can love, who or what did he love before the creation? If love came after the creation, it implies that love is not subject to allah but allah is subject to love. Allah is now out of the race.

We are left with Yahweh who I put it to you satisfies all the criteria better than anything else you can put up.

What do you mean by this?

mazaje:

Nope, i am not a firm believer of the two hypothesis. . . .They are possiblities but they don't present the kind of factual evidence i need. . .So for that I am not a firm believer in them. . .Personally I believe we don't know anything about how the universe came about, every body is just speculating no one truly knows. . .

and don't you think the real answer to how the universe came back may lie with a 'God' known or unknown?

mazaje1:

Yeah, either falsified or grossly embellished. . .

Are you a firm believer in the big b[b]a[/b]ng and evolution?

Korrection: Are there still people in Jos?

Bloody i.diot...Oya come Jos and relocate all the people there Bafoon

Mr_Anony:

We have to weigh everyone of them against the criteria we have set and how they satisfy it. Do you agree?

Ok...lets do so