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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Islam for Muslims / The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran (24378 Views)
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Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 6:02pm On Jan 24, 2008 |
olabowale: pilgrim already answered you well my inlaw so no need beating a dead horse. This whole thread was started for 2 reasons only 1. To prove that the Islamic claim that there are no different translations of the Koran,a big lie and deception. 2.To make them ponder at least on nairaland,anytime they choose to attack the Bible based on versions and translations It's amazing how Muslims perpetuate so many lies about Islam,lies that are totally unnecessary. So what if there are different Arabic Korans with some minor differences,does that change the main message Islam wants to portray to it's adherents ? If you understand this,how difficult is it for you to understand that English translations of the Bible from the same manuscript could differ in very minor things and yet the message of the Bible remains unchanged. I even took pains to show you how the NIV placed your so called missing phrase on a minute sentence down in it's footnotes yet your pride and claim of the "pure Koran" as written by allah didn't let you see reason. Now you admit to reading hafs and warsh,do you understand then when I tell you I read the KJV and NKJV and that does not make me holier than a Christian who prefers the NIV or goodnews Bible ,the message of the cross and plan of salvation remains unchanged. Earlier,you had made mention of different Christian denominations as proof that Christianity is corrupted until you were basically forced to confess and acknowledge the sects in Islam and their varying differences. Christians would never waste time on trying to prove the Koran as corrupted,we don't need to. We are not in competion and have never been. The message of Christ and the whole Bible stands alone with enough historical evidence to support it. |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by away4real(m): 6:23pm On Jan 24, 2008 |
Question to anyone really: Are there more than 1 english translation of the Koran? osisi point is noted the core contents and message remains the same despite the minor differences due to translations. for me the differenct translations of the bible are a blessing, wonderful, it brings it to todays language (simplicity) in addition u can understand it for yourself bring the bible alive for you. If a muslim can help contribute how the translations has helped you in your faith, is it necessary or should it be left in Arabic. |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 6:38pm On Jan 24, 2008 |
Below is what the author that I cited wrote In case Muslim readers should be greatly concerned: The variances between these different versions of the Koran are generally quite small and minor, although there are a substantial number of them. Muhammad Fahd Khaaruun has published a version of the (Hafs) Koran which contains the variant readings from the 10 Accepted Readers in its margins. About 2/3 of the ayat (verses) have some sort of variant reading. The great majority are differences in the vowels inserted in certain words (remembering that the early written kufic texts of the Koran did not include vowels or diacritical marks). There appears to be only one difference that might represent a significant effect on belief, that in surah 2:184. There are many Islamic scholars' discussions about these many differences. As an example of one, in Hafs, surah 2:140 reads taquluna, while in Warsh, that text is in surah 2:139 and reads yaquluna. Another example: Hafs surah 2:214 reads yaquula while Warsh surah 2;212 reads yaquulu. Muslim scholars agree that such variations do not seriously alter the meaning of statements made in the Koran. Now since you folks understand the above,you should have no problem understanding why the KJV could have a phrase on the body of the text and the NIV places that same phrase on it's footnotes. @ away4 real,there are over 20 versions of the English Korans and counting. just 4 of them alone have undergone over 100 revisions. Like you I love the different Bible translations, good for effective Bible studying. Try teaching childrens' Bible study with a King James with thee,thou and "suffer little children" ![]() ![]() ![]() The NIV,Good News and American standard are in everyday English,even a toddler can understand it. Thank God we don't have to learn Aramaic,Greek and Hebrew to worship or know the mind of God. Halleluia!!!!!! |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by osisi5: 1:39am On Jan 26, 2008 |
Where's everybody? |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by olabowale(m): 2:03am On Jan 26, 2008 |
Around the Corner! |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 12:07pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
+osisi: Nne, we just dey! We're still looking at the "translations" of this thread. ![]() |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by luvus: 12:56pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@ olabolae first of all dont try to change the topic, before i start answering, do you accept that there are five versions of KORAN as clearly spelt out for you by osisi and pilgrim? cos what we are disussing here is not about Jesus, God etc dont try to confuse yourself here, we are discussing the 5 VERSIONS OF THE KORAN and we are simply asking you to say yes or no to the presentation. maybe if you open another thread you can bring your discussion up and i think there i will answer you but now , [s]@Luvus: Not so fast, man. But you claim, as a Christian is God, right? So check the below out and tell me if Jesus was the God being refered to here, in the two quotes from the Bible. I still have more, but I am testing your embolden faith right now and before long it would not be so emboldened. Quote Exodus 32:1 (Whole Chapter) [ The Golden Calf ] When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods [ Or a god ; also in verses 23 and 31 ] who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him." Deuteronomy 9:7 (Whole Chapter) [ The Golden Calf ] Remember this and never forget how you provoked the LORD your God to anger in the desert. From the day you left Egypt until you arrived here, you have been rebellious against the LORD. Where is Jesus here; the Lord or the God, or both or neither? You have your work cut out for ya! Answer, because, ain't got all day; Jesus is not either Lord nor God in both verses! If then you guys then magically brought jesus up later as god or Lord, it must have been unreal and it may just be only in title, but not in subsatnce. Like monopoly money, it looks good, but can spend it. Its even worse than Ijebu money! And for those who are confusing English translation for simple reading, to Qur'an which is PURE ARABIC, you do not know anything about Islam! You are trying to co-mingle Islam with your religion. It just would not work. Qur'an is in PURE Arabic! Yet the Arabs themselves have to learn it, before they can understand it. Unlike your Injiil, which was revealed, am sorry, inspired, in Hebrew or Aramaic, yet none of you have seen a single one of it, in its originally inspired in language! And the most ancient manuscript that you have been carrying around to show that your Injiil is authentic, can only go so far at least 300 years after the inspirational writing,from the many writers, who we even see their personal opinions in your 'Pure Injiil!'[/s] |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by luvus: 1:28pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
Quote from: pahtahkee on January 23, 2008, 07:47 PM . . . * an elocutionary delivery of a piece of poetry or prose, without the text, before an audience. So babs, given the definition of recitation above, what exactly is your point? He has no point. The point really is that the Muslim claim that 'Allah' sent down any book to Muhammad is a fraud. There was no such "book" - it was all a recitation that Muhammad dictated as he went along. abeg see breaking down i cant but help smile amusing to myself ![]() ![]() ![]() Glory to Jesus Christ |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 2:40pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@pilgrim.1 Excuse me, WHY have you been using the same dishonest arguement of translation to attack the Bible and now complaining about my referring to Khalifa? Have Muslims not hypocritically been quoting Dr. Rashad Khalifa on the "miracle of 19 in the Qur'an" to prove their hypocristic apologetics? Your claim has no basis here and not even worth responding. I have been using the versions you are using today to nail and you should try giving verses from the translations like Hilal, Picktall etc and not trying to smuggle in that of Khalifa. If you are seeking a geuine discussion, my premise was simple: apply the same rule to your own Qur'an and drop your callous trade. What is the rule if i |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 3:07pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@babs787, How bodi? ![]() babs787: If you don't want to respond to them, please don't force yourself tirelessly. You have been the one arguing on "translations" of the Bible endlessly, and others simply allowed you to continue that game for long. There has to be a time when you need to settle down and apply the same rule of your argument to the "translations" of the Qur'an as well - then you will see how very disingenous you have been all the while. This is not a "tit-for-tat" game which you often try to play once your gimmicks are dissolved. But my entering into this discussion at all is to make both Muslims, Christians and others understand that there is no reason for Muslims to keep attacking the Bible based merely on the various translations available if the same Muslims in their seething garboil cannot settle down and see that the same "translations" of the Qur'an have even more confusion to the public reader than Muslims have assumed earlier. It is for this very reason of such callous Muslim hypocrisy that I have since ceased to entertain your pretences. You would notice that I've since stopped obliging you any answers to pretended queries because you never have demonstrated that you had the interest ina genuine debate or discussion. BUT (and a big BUT), I could not let this one pass by - and that was why I entered this thread to dissolve your shakara. Just one thing, though. Before you ever try to attempt another attack on the Bible based merely on "translations", take a moment or two and look deep into your own heart. The question you need to settle with yourself is this: what do you gain from attacking the Bible and Christians? It does not benefit you a dot to keep callously spewing your Muslim mendacity on others if you truly have no heart to examine and apply the same rule to your own Qur'an. babs787: In the first place, the idea of trying to "nail" somebody belongs to chidish gabble. That is trash talk. Rather than try to "nail" you, I simply called your attention to something far beyond that, which is: your attacks on the Bible are hypocritical and unfruitful to you personally. Second, even if I kept out of the Khalifa translation, it still does not change the FACT that the other translations of the Qur'an are as contradictory and confused as the example I gave earlier. Sir babs787, there is a world of difference between "religion, baptism, system, colour, dye" - and these are all coming from the popular translations of the Qur'an by MUSLIM translators and scholars!! The point at the end of the day has been established - your attention was being called to the same thing you never took time to observe in the Qur'an translations before applying that rule to attack the Bible merely on translations!! babs787: Did you miss something there? Shalom. ![]() |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by dafidixone(m): 3:20pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
Around the Corner! Who pushede you to the Conner? ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 3:30pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@pilgrim.1 Excuse me, WHY have you been using the same dishonest arguement of translation to attack the Bible and now complaining about my referring to Khalifa? Have Muslims not hypocritically been quoting Dr. Rashad Khalifa on the "miracle of 19 in the Qur'an" to prove their hypocristic apologetics? Your claim has no basis here and not even worth responding. I have been using the versions you are using today to nail and you should try giving verses from the translations like Hilal, Picktall etc and not trying to smuggle in that of Khalifa. If you are seeking a geuine discussion, my premise was simple: apply the same rule to your own Qur'an and drop your callous trade. What is the rule if I may ask you? Sura 2 v 138 ~ Which is it: Since you are confused as a result of different word used therein, can you please read the tafsir on that verse and get in touch? When you are through with that, can you also tell if these verses too used same word and meant same thing? 1. RSV : For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the father and the word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one. RSV: Omitted N.I.V: For there are three that testifies: the spirit, the water and the blood and these three are in agreement. G.N.B; There are three witnesses: The spirit the water and the blood and all three give the same testimony. L.B.V: The verses 6, 7 8 are totally omitted. 2. Luke 22 v 70 KJV; Then they said,'are you the son of God? He said unto them, 'you say that I am. N.I. V: They all asked, 'are you the son of God, he said, 'you are right in saying I am. L.B.V: They all shouted, 'then you claim you are the son of God? And he replied, 'yes I am. 3. Hebrew 12 v 8: KJV: then you are bastards, and not sons RSV: then you are illigimate children and not sons GNB; it means you are not real sons, but bastards LBV: it means that you are not God's son at all 4. Job 13 v 15; KJV; though he slay me, yet I trust him RSV; he will slay me, I have no hope GNB; I have lost all hope so what if God kills me? LBV; God may kill me for saying this in fact, I expect him to. 5. Ezekiel 16 v 25: KJV: and had opened your feet to every one that passed by. RSV; offering yourself to any passer-by NIV; offering your body with increasing promiscuity to one who passed by. LBV: you offered your beauty to every man who came by. 6. Where was the denial made? K JV:Mathew 26v71: …and he was gone into the Porch RSV:Mathew 26v71:and when he went out to the Porch Good news bible:Mathew 26v71: went out to the entrance of the Courtyard New Living Translation:Mathew 26v71: , out by the GATE The Gideon Bible: Mathew 26v71: …gone out to the GATEWAY KJV:Mark 14v68-69: and he went out into the Porch RSV:Mark 14v68: …and he went out into the Gateway GNB:Mark 14v68: went out into the Passage New Living Translation:Mark 14v68: …went out into the ENTRY WAY The Gideon Bible: Mark 14v68: ….he went out on the PORCH KJV:Luke 22v55-58: …in the midst of the hall. RSV:Luke 22v55: …in the middle of the Courtyard GNB:Luke 22v55: …center of the Courtyard New Living Translation:Luke 22v55: the guards lit a fire in the COURTYARD…Peter joined them. The Gideon Bible:Luke 22v55: Peter sat among them in the COURTYARD Another post coming shortly. |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 3:44pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@babs787, babs787: What is difficult for you to understand the simply issue about TRANSLATIONS, babs787? Are you so gifted in being so callous? May God deliver your soul from this hypocrisy. ![]() babs787: Are the tafsirs based on TRANSLATIONS of the Qur'an as well? How do the tafsirs explain the difference between "baptism, colour, dye, religion and system", babs787? Do you care to tell us? And the many verses you posted - are they not also based on translations of the Bible? ![]() You're really having such a bad day, I can see. babs787: And just here to help you see that we do not need to run to any tafsirs to demonstrate that "bastards" is simply the same as "illegitimate chidlren". You can find the synonyms as linked below: [list][li]One of the meanings of "bastard" - The illegitimate offspring of unmarried parents - by-blow, love child, illegitimate child, illegitimate[/li][/list] [list][li]that already has the term "[url=http://]illegitimate child[/url]" as of the same meaning! ![]() You have serious problems babs787. ![]() |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 3:50pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@babs787, babs787: I'm sorry for you! ![]() This issue about "Where was the denial made?" has been soundly laid to rest previously already - click here and see how bari_kade outlined it for you! babs787: Did you mean to say "another recycled material coming shortly"? Please save them if you have nothing fresh to present. This trash attitude should be way above your age by now! |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 4:02pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@pilgrim.1 And just here to help you see that we do not need to run to any tafsirs to demonstrate that "bastards" is simply the same as "illegitimate chidlren". You can find the synonyms as linked below: Oh I can see that it is only that of Hebrew you saw but do not forget that I posted others too and you can scroll up to read. You have serious problems babs787. You can say that to those older than me and those that we may be of the same age in your family. If you dont know or you parent did not teach how to talk or behave towards those older than you, then I think that they must have been biting their fingers going through nairaland and reading your posts full of disgrace and lack of home training.
Good, I love you exposing your fraud. Here is the link for you and please try to bring out where it was explained. Your friend Gbade.x tried muddling things up and I had to arrange and give him the differences for him to explain but till now he has not done that and you may bail him out if you can. You may read and catch the gist here if you care https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-29381.224.html |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 4:03pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@Pilgrim.1 Neither ideas of abrogation is in the Bible - for God never caused any of His prophets to "FORGET" any verse; nor did He cause them to "SUBSTITUTE" one verse for another. Since this is what Muslims are claiming for the Qur'an, it is no wonder it is self-attested as a "forgery" - because you will not find your definition of "abrogation" in any verse of the Bible. Your game will never work with. You are saying that God did not cause them to substitute a verse for another but let us read throug these verses to see how true your statement is: If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, (Deutronomy 24:1-2) Now without going into the minute of this particular law of divorce, one thing becomes immediately clear. Not only is divorce permitted by God, it is legal for her to remarry. Now Jesus changed the rule thus maming us known that they have been told that any man who divorce his wife must give her a certificate but Jesus made us known that it would be a sin to do hence he changed the law: "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32) Let us read further: Well Jesus himself explains: "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." (Matthew 19:7-9) Now Pilgrim.1, what does the above mean to you? Did Jesus not change the law of Moses? 2. In the book of Deteronomy: Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. (Deutronomy 19:21) But Jesus had it changed thus: "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42) Can you please explain the verses above and did Jesus not change what Moses commanded them to do? When you are through, compare your answer(s) with these Quranic verses: Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things. Qur'an 16 vs 101 "When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
This thread keeps getting interesting but let us read on (1) FASTING Do you have the missing verse in the Quran with you and please? Can you still tell us who the hadith above was referring to and I will shed more light on what seemed difficult for you? (2) MARTYRS Is 'abrogation' the same thing as 'omission'? Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things. Qur'an 16 vs 101 "When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
Do you have in the Quran where this particular verse is present but missing in another just I have been giving you biblical verses that are missing but present in another? Is abrogation the same thing as omission? Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things. Qur'an 16 vs 101 "When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not. (4) MARTYRS Do you have in the Quran where this particular verse is present but missing in another just I have been giving you biblical verses that are missing but present in another? Is abrogation the same thing as omission? Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things. Qur'an 16 vs 101 "When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not. |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 4:19pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@babs787, babs787: You can repeat that until your call for Friday prayer - everyone who has commented so far understands that pilgrim.1 has no games to play here. ![]() babs787: Where in the Bible did you find God saying that He substituted any verse for another? if you can find that verse with God using the word "substituted" in the Bible for one verse to another, then you have a discussion to tender - otherwise, your efforst to force the embarrassing fallacy of "substituting" Qur'anic verses in Islam is too weak to divert the topic of this thread. babs787: Pull yourself from under the finger you're hiding! ![]() babs787: It does not mean that He "changed" the Law of Moses, nor does it mean that He abrogated any verse in the Mosaic Law. If you can find me where He used the word "substitute" or "abrogate", then I will help you see what you have been deliberately twisting. Until then, please save your headaches and focus on the ABROGATED Qur'an which you have difined as a SUBSTITUTED book! ![]() Come to think of it - you Muslims accuse the Bible of having been tampered with by Christians and Jews. No wahala - your attacks have not relieved you of your embarrassment. But just what amazes me is this - even as 'Allah' was sending Gabriel (Jibril) to recite the Qur'an to Muhammad, the same 'Allah' was already busy ABROGATING and SUBSTITUTING his own Qur'an!! ![]() ![]() ![]() Abeg school up and talk better - all these sweating acrobatics with a professional pretence about not understanding the meaning of the word "TRANSLATION" is not going to change the "colour, dye and baptism" of 'Allah' into any system or religion (according to the various translations of the Qur'an). |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 4:28pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@babs787, babs787: Shed the "light" and let's see the remaining darkness of the cancelled verses. What was Muhammad doing when they cancelled those verses after he cursed and swore for the several days after the incident? ![]() babs787: You defined "abrogation" earlier - and I used that same definition you gave to demonstrate that God nowhere abrogated any verse in the Bible. If you think you're smart enough to demonstrate a scholarship you don't possess, please find me where in the Bible where God said that He has abrogated any verse from the entire Bible - just one verse, please. Afterall, 'Allah' clearly used the word 'abrogate' in your Qur'an - and you have quoted it several times. In the same way, please I humbly request you to find me just one verse of the Bible where God used the same word ("abrogate" ![]() This is not a long story - just respond by finding me that verse, then we can discuss. Any long story you post will simply be rubbished into the bin. Thank you. ![]() |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 4:33pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@pilgrim.1 Where in the Bible did you find God saying that He substituted any verse for another? if you can find that verse with God using the word "substituted" in the Bible for one verse to another, then you have a discussion to tender - otherwise, your efforst to force the embarrassing fallacy of "substituting" Qur'anic verses in Islam is too weak to divert the topic of this thread. I can now see that you are confused just because God did not say he abrogated some verses and if He did not say that, how come Jesus changed the law and sayings of Moses? I know that you will always cry of trying to divert the thread just because I gave you verses from your bible on the same issue. You may do justice to those biblical verses and tell me why did Jesus change what Moses told them Pull yourself from under the finger you're hiding! Where did Jesus claim to gave ABROGATED or SUBSTITUTED any verse for another? Trying to force that idea into the Bible because your Qur'an has been abrogated is not going to help you better your Islam, you hear? If Jesus did not claim that, why did he change what Moses taught and please what do you call that despite the fact that he said that he didnt came to annul/abrogate any law but he did changed that of Moses!!!
Now, what do you understand by these verses? It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32) "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42) Come to think of it - you Muslims accuse the Bible of having been tampered with by Christians and Jews. No wahala - your attacks have not relieved you of your embarrassment. Nothing of such sister. You are just confusing yourself and try to smuggle in what it is not. Have you been able to defend those biblical verses I served you?
Now is abrogation the same thing as omission? Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things. Qur'an 16 vs 101 "When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not. |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 4:40pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@pilgrim.1 Where in the Bible did you find God saying that He substituted any verse for another? if you can find that verse with God using the word "substituted" in the Bible for one verse to another, then you have a discussion to tender - otherwise, your efforst to force the embarrassing fallacy of "substituting" Qur'anic verses in Islam is too weak to divert the topic of this thread. I can now see that you are confused just because God did not say he abrogated some verses and if He did not say that, how come Jesus changed the law and sayings of Moses? I know that you will always cry of trying to divert the thread just because I gave you verses from your bible on the same issue. You may do justice to those biblical verses and tell me why did Jesus change what Moses told them Pull yourself from under the finger you're hiding! Where did Jesus claim to gave ABROGATED or SUBSTITUTED any verse for another? Trying to force that idea into the Bible because your Qur'an has been abrogated is not going to help you better your Islam, you hear? If Jesus did not claim that, why did he change what Moses taught and please what do you call that despite the fact that he said that he didnt came to annul/abrogate any law but he did changed that of Moses!!!
Now, what do you understand by these verses? It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. (Matthew 5:31-32) "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42) Come to think of it - you Muslims accuse the Bible of having been tampered with by Christians and Jews. No wahala - your attacks have not relieved you of your embarrassment. Nothing of such sister. You are just confusing yourself and try to smuggle in what it is not. Have you been able to defend those biblical verses I served you?
Now is abrogation the same thing as omission? Quran 2v106: Whatever a verse (revelation) do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten. We bring a better one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things. Qur'an 16 vs 101 "When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not. Shed the "light" and let's see the remaining darkness of the cancelled verses. What was Muhammad doing when they cancelled those verses after he cursed and swore for the several days after the incident? Try to understand everything about fasting in Islam, who to fast, fasting of old people, one who is etc and when you do that, I will explain what you dont know You defined "abrogation" earlier - and I used that same definition you gave to demonstrate that God nowhere abrogated any verse in the Bible. If you think you're smart enough to demonstrate a scholarship you don't possess, please find me where in the Bible where God said that He has abrogated any verse from the entire Bible - just one verse, please. If God did not abrogate any verse, can you please explain the biblical verses I gave you where Jesus cancelled what Moses taught, despite the fact that he said that he didnt come to ABOLISH any law. Afterall, 'Allah' clearly used the word 'abrogate' in your Qur'an - and you have quoted it several times. In the same way, please I humbly request you to find me just one verse of the Bible where God used the same word ("abrogate" Good, Allah used the word and He also gave reason for that but Jesus said that he didnt come to ABROGATE but did many cancelations which can be found in the verses I served you. This is not a long story - just respond by finding me that verse, then we can discuss. Any long story you post will simply be rubbished into the bin. Are you running out of point. Bring your allegation and it will be given rebuttal. Also try to be civil in your discussions. A word is enough for the wise who has ears |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by olabowale(m): 5:07pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@Luvus: Therefore, for any of your 'word,' to make sense, trying so hard to defend the English Bible: go get yourself a Bible, no the New Testament part of it (I want to make your job easier, because you are not a Jew by religion), in the language that Jesus received it. If he did not receive anything, but just began to preach something anyways, go get that 'something,' in the original language, which he preached it! Then I can talk to you, hoping that you are worthy of our dialogue. For me I stand on the truth of Qur'an in Pure Arabic! [quote from anonymous which Luvus responded to. I think the guy is a Christian]abeg see breaking down i can't but help smile amusing to myself [quote][/quote] don't amuse yourself too much. Please get your Bible in the Original language that it is revealed in and don't just give me of what you get from a greek's most ancient manuscript! I want what came out during the time of the preaching, while his apostles were with him! You will not be amused anymore after see a stark departure in your Bible from what Jesus preached. (Preached meaning he was preaching something, an Idea. Who gave him that Idea to preach?) Afterall, finally, +Osisi read that the Qur'an was compiled in a Book Bind at the time of Abu Bakr; the man who led the Muslim community after the dead of Prophet Muhammad (as) |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 5:09pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@babs787, babs787: Lol. . . I am not confused, and your effort to try and confuse both terms cannot change anything here. God did not make any claim of abrogating any verse in the Bible - if He did, please post the verse stating where He used that term as clearly as we read 'Allah' was both abrogating and "substituting" his qur'an here and there. Just one verse will do. . . and no confusing or dribbling between words. ![]() babs787: He did not change them; if He did, then I would discuss them, thank you. ![]() babs787: In many ways, I have shared on this - and the simple reason was that His fulfilling the Mosaic Law was to give them their true meaning. There is a difference between "fulfilling" a Law and abrogating or substituting it. Even in civil law, the case cannot be confused. In no instance did Jesus ever claim what Muhammad made 'Allah''' claim in the Qur'an - if you have a genuine argument, please post the verse where Jesus clearly said He was abrogating any verse - in just the same clear way that Muhammad put in 'Allah's' mouth as you quoted from your Qur'an. babs787: They do not mean "abrogation" or "substitution". It is clear that He was actually stating the full implication of the LAW - which was this: (a) love God with all of your being (b) love your neighbour as yourself That was the FULL implication of what He was teaching them, because the Law clearly had these distinctives, but the Jews were applying a legalistic connotation thereto. Even on the matter of divorce and remarriage where the Lord Jesus Christ used the phrase "Ye have heard. . . But I say unto you", it is clear He wasn't changing, abrogating or substituting anything. One has to first understand the NATURE of the LAW first before trying to interpret them outside their context. For whatever you may attribute to them, He did not "substitute" nor "abrogate" any verse. If He did, I would like to see where He stated it so as clearly as 'Allah' used those words in the Qur'an. babs787: I haven't smuggled in any words from "ABROGATION" or "SUBSTITUTE" - you are the one trying to force them into the Bible where they do not exist, and I have offered you again and again to please quote the verse where such terms are used in the Bible. babs787: As soon as you defend the challenges I offered. Don't play those mindless games with me, thank you. babs787: Anyhow you want to dribble it, where do thse terms appear as God stating them in the Bible: (a) ABROGATION (b) SUBSTITUTE (c) CAUSE to be FORGOTTEN (d) OMISSION?? Where did God cause any of His prophet to ABROGATE any verse? Muhammad may abrogate the Qur'an for all I care; but where did God in the Bible claim the same? |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 5:25pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@pilgrim.1 You are making me laugh here. You are confused just because Allah mentioned abrogation but Bible didnt do that. Now you tried to explain some biblical verses and I read it that you flopped in your explanation. There is a difference between "fulfilling" a Law and abrogating or substituting it. Even in civil law, the case cannot be confused. In no instance did Jesus ever claim what Muhammad made 'Allah''' claim in the Qur'an - if you have a genuine argument, please post the verse where Jesus clearly said He was abrogating any verse - in just the same clear way that Muhammad put in 'Allah's' mouth as you quoted from your Qur'an. Didnt Jesus say that he didnt come to annul any law and what is another word for annulment? Keep going in circles and when you are through, explain the biblical verses to me where Jesus changed the teaching of Moses. Thank you |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 5:33pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@babs787, babs787: You can laugh all you want, but please be mature and don't let your post continue to look so pitiful as you have done all along. The implications of any term you use is important. I'm sure no Muslim would come and say that the word "abrogate" and "substitute" were a mistake in the Qur'an. God nowhere "abrogated" or "substituted" any verse in the Bible - just as 'Allah' in the Qur'an clearly did so! Since you are so desperate to cover up this conundrium of the ABROGATED Qur'an, it could help your worries if you simply find ANY TRANSLATION of the Bible where God claimed that He abrogated any verse or substituted them! Allah's qur'an is an abrogated and substituted book, abi? Good. The Bible does not bear any abrogations. If you can find me those claims where God must have said so, please quote the verse directly and save all the hat-tricks to cover up, thank you. ![]() |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by luvus: 5:37pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@all kia kaai, una no go kill m wit laf ooooh ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() i wish dis was a live debate on tv it will be interesting but no they wont allow it else so much burning etc any way thanks seun for bring up this forum and God bless, ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 5:43pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@pilgrim.1 You are denying the abrogation in the bible just because God didnt mention it and please my question again: Didnt Jesus say that he didnt come to annul any law and what is another word for annulment? |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 5:49pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@babs787, babs787: Babs787, please stop ducking behind your finger. Only one request I made - quote the verse where God said He abrogated any verse of the Bible - then we take it from there. Don't force those terms into the Bible where they do not exist. If you have the verse where God made that statement, please post it - othewrwise save the illiterate posts that make us wonder if Islam has only duckers for scholarship. |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by babs787(m): 5:57pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@pilgrim.1 Babs787, please stop ducking behind your finger. Only one request I made - quote the verse where God said He abrogated any verse of the Bible - then we take it from there. Don't force those terms into the Bible where they do not exist. Here is my question again: Didnt Jesus say that he didnt come to annul any law and what is another word for annulment? |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 6:09pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@babs787, babs787: The verse reads: Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. I deliberately left the verse as it is without highlighting any word, and I don't see how that verse says that Jesus came to ABROGATE, SUBSTITUTE, or OMIT any verse of the Bible. The translation I used was KJV. Please check any other translation and let us know any where in the Bible He claimed that He came to ABROGATE, SUBSTITUTE, or OMIT any verse of the Bible. Can you simply do that, babs787? |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by luvus: 6:17pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
@babs haba haba mana, kai sai yenzu ka yarda chai wa al korani ba daiya ba? ( you made me speak in hausa) (haba why all this long turanci (english) u could simple have accepted that the koran has various versions and u will accept the versions of tramslations ) [font=Lucida Sans Unicode][font=Lucida Sans Unicode][font=Lucida Sans Unicode]Your claim has no basis here and not even worth responding. I have been using the versions you are using today to nail and you should try giving verses from the translations like Hilal, Picktall etc and not trying to smuggle in that of Khalifa. [/font][/font][/font] Now all u out there i therefore deliver a judgement and accepted by all including (olabowale and babs) that we have VARIOUS VERSIONS, TRANSALTIONS, EDITION OF THE KORAN, SO CASE CLOSED that is if they will accept ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by pilgrim1(f): 6:25pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
luvus: It is not a common commodity for Muslims to understand English - and to ask them to find out the meaning of the following words (abrogate, substitute, translations) is like asking a primary school pupil to sit an exam in Cambridge University! ![]() |
Re: The 5 versions of the Arabic Koran by luvus: 6:29pm On Jan 26, 2008 |
[b]Quote 1. 1 John 5 v 7 RSV : For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the father and the word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one. RSV: Omitted N.I.V: For there are three that testifies: the spirit, the water and the blood and these three are in agreement. G.N.B; There are three witnesses: The spirit the water and the blood and all three give the same testimony. L.B.V: The verses 6, 7 8 are totally omitted. 2. Luke 22 v 70 KJV; Then they said,'are you the son of God? He said unto them, 'you say that I am. N.I. V: They all asked, 'are you the son of God, he said, 'you are right in saying I am. L.B.V: They all shouted, 'then you claim you are the son of God? And he replied, 'yes I am. 3. Hebrew 12 v 8: KJV: then you are bastards, and not sons RSV: then you are illigimate children and not sons GNB; it means you are not real sons, but bastards LBV: it means that you are not God's son at all 4. Job 13 v 15; KJV; though he slay me, yet I trust him RSV; he will slay me, I have no hope GNB; I have lost all hope so what if God kills me? LBV; God may kill me for saying this in fact, I expect him to. 5. Ezekiel 16 v 25: KJV: and had opened your feet to every one that passed by. RSV; offering yourself to any passer-by NIV; offering your body with increasing promiscuity to one who passed by. LBV: you offered your beauty to every man who came by. 6. Where was the denial made? K JV:Mathew 26v71: …and he was gone into the Porch RSV:Mathew 26v71:and when he went out to the Porch Good news bible:Mathew 26v71: went out to the entrance of the Courtyard New Living Translation:Mathew 26v71: , out by the GATE The Gideon Bible: Mathew 26v71: …gone out to the GATEWAY KJV:Mark 14v68-69: and he went out into the Porch RSV:Mark 14v68: …and he went out into the Gateway GNB:Mark 14v68: went out into the Passage New Living Translation:Mark 14v68: …went out into the ENTRY WAY The Gideon Bible: Mark 14v68: ….he went out on the PORCH KJV:Luke 22v55-58: …in the midst of the hall. RSV:Luke 22v55: …in the middle of the Courtyard GNB:Luke 22v55: …center of the Courtyard New Living Translation:Luke 22v55: the guards lit a fire in the COURTYARD…Peter joined them. The Gideon Bible:Luke 22v55: Peter sat among them in the COURTYARD Another post coming shortly.[/b] dear babs on a serious note, we are not denying that we dont have various versions, translations but we also want u to also accept same that MUSLIMS HAVE VERSIONS, TRANSALTIONS AND EDITIONS. then from there we can continue and we believe since we (including u muslims) have agrreed on that point, then lets continue else u have no bases to accuse the bible as confused etc |
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