This topic has led many lazy Muslims at the crossroads, being easily deceived by the so called Christians with their man-made religion (Pauline Christianity), and also to let Christians know that u can be born many times but die except in a state of Islam. Before I continue, I will like to tell the fanatical and propagandist Christians that refuse to accept the truth and that do attack individual but no sit down to read and think over what is written and also check for verification where reference is made. It will be better for you to address the issue rather than fighting the person me for saying the truth. I was born by Christian parents, attended Missionary school. I attended different churches for almost 20 twenty years, thereby affording me the opportunity of knowing and being familiar with different Christian doctrines. Pls make use tatr you have your pen, paper ands bible by your side. This is a very important issue that has left many Christians and even some Muslims wondering whether  it is true that Jesus was sent to the whole world including Christians, Muslims, Jew etc, we need to consider the bible verse below for better understanding of the above topic
1st Thessalonians 5 v 21: prove all things and hold that which is good.
For anything said, there must be evidence or proof to back it up, so as not to look like mere saying. Also if you do not prove all things, how will you be able to know the truth from falsehood which is being preached today by the Christians without having second thought on the issue and not even having a second thought on the issue and not even check their bible properly.
One of the major reasons that made Islam different from Christianity is that, for anything said or brought into the religion, will have to be proved or make research into before accepting. If its incorrect it is regarded as Bidiah (Innovation), meaning what people bring into religion. But in the case of Christianity, it is what their pastors tell them that they follow, they do not find time, and make research in the bible on the things said by their pastors whether it is true or false before accepting it. They do not read the bible themselves to find out the truth forgetting that in the bible
John 8 v 32: and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.
If you do not seek for truth, how will you differentiate between truth and falsehood.

1st Thessa 5v21: prove all things, hold that which is good
mattew 1v21: and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins.
Who are Jesus people? The Jews are the people of Jesus cos he was sent to them alone.
John 4v21-22: Jesus said unto her, woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem worship the father, ye worship ye know not what we know. We know we worship, for SALVATION is of the JEWS.
Jesus said that salvation is for the Jews cos he came for Jews alone.
Mathew 15v24-26: but he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel……,
Here Jesus said, he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel although there are other countries apart from Israel but was sent only to them.
Mathew 10v5-6: these twelve, Jesus sent them forth and commanded them saying, go not on the way of the gentiles and unto any city of the Samaritans, enter ye not, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Math 19v28: and Jesus said unto them, verily I say unto you, that which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribe of Israel.
Jesus said that he and his disciples will judge the twelve tribes cos he was sent only to Israel.
Jesus, when he assigned the work, directed the twelve disciples each to a tribe in Israel and not to go beyond Israel as in Matt 10v5-6 cos his assignment is limited, he was sent to only Jews.
Also from the Holy Quran
Quran 3v49: and (make him) an apostle to the children of Israel….
Quran 43v59: he (Jesus) was naught but a servant on whom we bestowed favour and we made him an example for the children of Israel.
Quran 3v61: but whoever dispute with you in this matter concerning Jesus after what has come to you of knowledge, then say : come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.
All the Quranic and Bible verses show that Jesus was not sent to the world but to only Israel (Jews)
I challenge anybody that have any proof or anything contradicting all I’ve said so far, let he/she bring the proof. My mail is tundebabs77@yahoo.com
PROPHET MUHAMMAD (SAW) WAS SENT TO THE WHOLE WORLD
All the prophets were sent to their people eg jesus, joseph, noah, lot, Isaiah, david, etc but only Muhammad (PBUH0 was sent to the whole world as in
Quran 21v107: and we have not sent you but as a mercy to the world (all creatures, mankind, jinn, fish, insects, trees, animals etc)
Quran 34v28: and we have not sent you  but to men as a bearer of good news and as a saviour, but most men do not now.
Quran 46v9: say I (Muhammad (PBUH) am not the first of the apostles and I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain Warner.
Quran 21v1: blessed is he (Allah) who sent down the Quran upon his servant (Muhammad PBUH) that he may be a Warner to the nations.
Quran 3v132: and obey Allah and his apostle, that you may be shown mercy.
A word is enough for the wise. As said in the book of Isaiah that come and lets reason together, can our creator be of confusion, giving one region to a prophet and giving another to another prophet, Allah said all the prophets did and practice same religion. Jesus too was not a Christian. I challenge any Christian where Jesus made mention of Christianity as a religion. The early Christians were called  Nazarene, it was Paul that started Christianity. I challenge anybody to all I have said, my mail is tundebabs77@yahoo.com or go www.thetruereligion.com.
By God’s grace, I will shed on other topics like was Jesus the only son of God, was he crucified, did he die for anybody’s sin, was he the saviour, the comforter, etc

Babs787,

I challenge your assertions.

Let me just show you your wrong thinking with just one verse you offered from the bible.

mattew 1v21: and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shall call his name Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins.
Who are Jesus people? The Jews are the people of Jesus because he was sent to them alone.

Now add this verse to that one.

Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Jesus states plainly that those who do the will of God are his people.

thats not the question. u saw all that i types. am not disputing that Jesus said that those doing the will of God are his people. u saw all the bible quotations. i challenge you

lady, thats not the issue. what did u say all that he said he was not sent to gentiles and that his disciples should not go to gentiles too, didnt u read that he called gentiles dog and israel son. read everything and challenge me with any quotation from the bible or elsewhere. proof all things and hold which is true

Babs787,

Alright. You want me to explain more of the verses. That's fine, I'll do it.

John 4v21-22: Jesus said unto her, woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem worship the father, ye worship ye know not what we know. We know we worship, for SALVATION is of the JEWS.

Jesus said that salvation is for the Jews because he came for Jews alone.

You changed this verse to say something, it does not say. This verse plainly says of the Jews. Jesus is plainly stating that it is the Bible or Word of God that the Jews had been entrusted with, that brings Salvation to the world.

This statement really eliminates all other Holy Books and saviors.

Mathew 15v24-26: but he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel……,
Here Jesus said, he was sent to the lost sheep of Israel although there are other countries apart from Israel but was sent only to them.

Mathew 10v5-6: these twelve, Jesus sent them forth and commanded them saying, go not on the way of the gentiles and unto any city of the Samaritans, enter ye not, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I kept these two together because they are basically the same statement.

Jesus is stating the truth, He was sent for the lost sheep of Israel and sent His disciples to the lost sheep of Israel.

Why would Jesus be trying to speak to and save ONLY the lost sheep of Israel, while He lived?

It's simple. Israelites were doing blood sacrifices at the temple as ordered in the old testament, thus they could still be saved under the old system of animal sacrifices.

Meanwhile, Gentiles could not be saved under such a system until they had their own blood sacrifice.

Which was Jesus, [b]only after His death and blood sacrifice could outsiders be saved.

Jews had blood sacrifices and could be saved while Jesus lived.
Gentiles did not get their blood sacrifice until after Jesus died.

v28: and Jesus said unto them, verily I say unto you, that which have followed me, in the regeneration when the son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones judging the twelve tribe of Israel.

Jesus said that he and his disciples will judge the twelve tribes because he was sent only to Israel.

This is because all Christians are grafted into the tree of Israel when our root is Jesus.

Look who the bible calls a Jew --

Rom 2:28-29or he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

So gentiles are joined to the house of Israel. We do not remove them or replace them but we are joined to them. Thus we are joined to the 12 tribes.

Aha!Christians Vs Muslims battle,round 10000000.
The two simple truths;

1)Jesus belongs to the jews,strictly
2)Mohammed belongs to arabs,strictly

End of story.If you black africans are looking for your own saviour,or your own prophet,then y'all should pray to God to send them down to you direct.

Hello Babs787,

I would like to offer a somewhat different perspective to the question by stating my answers in an outline.

First, as regards your enquiry, the basic question is: Was Jesus sent to the whole world? I'm convinced indeed that the Biblical answer is a resounding "yes", and to quote Biblical texts to "prove" otherwise is simply missing the point.

Prophetic Promises of Universal Salvation in Jesus Christ

In the Old Testament, God made several prophetic promises of salvation that would be offered to the entire world and not just to the Jews alone:

[1].  Gen. 22:18 - 'And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.' God gave this promise to Abraham, in which we understand that there was only one Person that "thy Seed" could be referring to - and that is Jesus Christ, according to Gal. 3:16 - ''Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seed[b]s[/b], as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Thus, all the nations of the earth are to be blessed in Jesus Christ and none else.

[2].  Isa. 11:10 - 'And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.' The Gentiles are non-Jewish people, and here the text shows that even before Jesus was born, His salvation was promised to people who are not Jews as well. In the NT, Jesus categorically offered His glorious rest to whoever comes to Him by faith (see Matt. 11:28 -  'Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest' ~~ did you notice here that His invitation was to all?).

[3]. Isa. 49:6 - "And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." The last portion of this text is clearly indicative of Jesus Christ who was promised to be God's salvation unto the end of the earth, rather than to only the Jews (notice the possessive pronoun "my" in the statement 'my salvation to the end of the earth' - which shows that God's prophetic word was uttered by the prophet in that text).

[4].  Isa. 52:10 - "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." Again, a prophetic declaration that God's salvation in Christ was to reach non-Jews as well.


New Testament Fulfillment of The Promises

Jesus Christ often made statements in His ministry that clearly indicated that everyone was included in His saving grace and redemptive sacrifice on the cross. Notice how many times He showed this with such words as "whosoever" - which in the context that they appear would be pointing to just about anyone who was either a Jew of Gentile:

[1]. Jesus was speaking in the following texts:

Matt. 7:24  "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock"

Matt. 10:32 - "Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven."

Matt. 11:6 - "And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

John 3:15-16 - "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 12:46 - "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness."

Notice that even before Jesus went to the Cross to be crucified, He categorically stated that He was sent to the world rather than to just the Jews. The problem in understanding the texts you had referenced earlier is that you had misconstrued the nature of His first coming - He was to be presented first to the Jews before the Gentiles. This is pivotal, because even Jesus reminded us that salvation is of the Jews in John 4:22 - and those who have known God's counsel about this will recognise also that salvation is presented in this mode: first to the Jews and the to the Gentiles (Rom. 1:16 & 2:10).

Another important issue about this is that Jesus reiterated in Luke 13:33 that "it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." God did not send a Gentile prophet to the Jews, for that would contradict John 4:22, and the Jews knew quite well in declaring, "Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet" (John 7:47). In the climax of His ministry in having been with the Jews and persistently besseching them, Jesus spoke a parable to the Jews in Matt. 21:33-43 to show how the Jews' rejection of their Messiah would usher in the Gentiles in a very surprising manner. Notice what He said at the end of the parable in verses 42-43:

"Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you [that is, the Jews], and given to a nation [that is, non-Jews and believeing Jews] bringing forth the fruits thereof."

So, what did Jesus Himself say after the resurrection? Hear Him -

Mat 28:18-20  
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Luke 24:46-47  
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

I hope this helps in answering your enquiry. Jesus saves, and He offers His salvation to you today, whether or not you're not Jew or Gentile.

Hi there Drusilla,

While I would agree with a few of your inputs, your other summations are a bit of a concern as I don't find them sustained anywhere in the Bible. Let me quote you:

Drusilla:

Why would Jesus be trying to speak to and save ONLY the lost sheep of Israel, while He lived?
It's simple. Israelites were doing blood sacrifices at the temple as ordered in the old testament, thus they could still be saved under the old system of animal sacrifices.

Meanwhile, Gentiles could not be saved under such a system until they had their own blood sacrifice.

Which was Jesus, only after His death and blood sacrifice could outsiders be saved.

Jews had blood sacrifices and could be saved while Jesus lived.
Gentiles did not get their blood sacrifice until after Jesus died.

I don't think that the OT sacrifices saved anyone - not even the Jews, otherwise the same sacrifices would be just sufficient to save them today after the vicarious work of Jesus on the Cross had been accomplished. However, that the OT sacrifices did not save anyone under the old covenant, my persuasions are borne out of the following texts:

Heb 10:3 - But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Heb 10:4 - For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Heb 10:11 - And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Heb 10:12 - But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Heb 10:14 - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

There is no saving power in the blood of bulls and goats offered in the OT sacrifices according to the Law, for those sacrifices only did not "take away" the sins of the people - and that is the very reason why their sins were continually remembered year after year before God, until the Perfect sacrifice was presented: Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God.

Drusilla:

So gentiles are joined to the house of Israel. We do not remove them or replace them but we are joined to them. Thus we are joined to the 12 tribes.

Again, this is not convincingly sustained in the Bible. God sees only three groups of people from according to I Cor. 10:32 - (a) the Jews; (b) the Gentiles; and (c) the Church of God. In the Church, it is categorically declared that there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gal. 3:28 and Col. 3:11); so it is quite untenable to reason that we are joined to the 12 tribes of Israel. When you turn for a minute to Revelation 7, after the twelve tribes were mentioned, the Bible says in verse 9:

"After this [that is, after the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel in the preceding verses] I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."

Were these added to the twelve tribes of Israel? Not at all. We do not become Jews after believing in Christ; neither do we hold onto our 'Gentile' distinctives. We are simple the Children of God by faith in His Son, and consequently known as Christians, and ot Jews or Gentiles.

Just my observations. Regards.

@m4malik,

WORD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Couldn't agree with you more.

I am still waiting for the originator of this topic to respond before I make some other contributions. In the meantime, I think m4malik has answered you very well.

M4Malik,

Your probably right, Maybe I should have used the word atonement, rather than salvation. In the old testament the sacrifices  gave atonement for sins.

(Exo 29:36)  And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: [/b]and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it.


(Exo 30:10)  And Aaron shall make an atonement upon the horns of it once in a year with [b]the blood of the sin offering of atonements: once in the year shall he make atonement upon it throughout your generations: it is most holy unto the LORD.

(Exo 30:15)  The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
(Exo 30:16)  And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

(Exo 32:30)  And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.

In the New Testament Jesus gives atonement for us:

Rom 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11  And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Further than that we can go to the book of Hebrews one chapter earlier:

Heb 9:19  For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20  Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21  Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23  It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24  For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25  Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26  For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Now if we add in Hebrews Chapter 10 verse 1:

Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

We can see that the writer was not saying that the blood of bulls and goats did not atone for sin but that they had to be continually offered because they were inadequate to make people perfect.

I don't think that the OT sacrifices saved anyone - not even the Jews, otherwise the same sacrifices would be just sufficient to save them today after the vicarious work of Jesus on the Cross had been accomplished.

Jesus Christ left their house desolate (the abomination of desolation) it's not like they could offer the sacrifices today anyways.

That was the point of the 'abomination of desolation' to take away the first covenant through which the blood of goats and bulls could atone for sins, yearly.

The Abomination of Desolation, is still in effect.

However, that the OT sacrifices did not save anyone under the old covenant, my persuasions are borne out of the following texts:

Heb 10:3 - But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Heb 10:4 - For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Heb 10:11 - And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

Heb 10:12 - But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Heb 10:14 - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Again. I think we can miss what is being said here by not looking at verse 1:

Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Blood from animals could not make one perfect but they could atone for sin for a while. The same as Jesus atoned for our sins, but since our covenant is a better covenant, our atonement through Jesus makes us perfect.

Again, this is not convincingly sustained in the Bible. God sees only three groups of people from according to I Cor. 10:32 - (a) the Jews; (b) the Gentiles; and (c) the Church of God. In the Church, it is categorically declared that there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gal. 3:28 and Col. 3:11); so it is quite untenable to reason that we are joined to the 12 tribes of Israel. When you turn for a minute to Revelation 7, after the twelve tribes were mentioned, the Bible says in verse 9:

"After this [that is, after the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel in the preceding verses] I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands."

Were these added to the twelve tribes of Israel? Not at all. We do not become Jews after believing in Christ; neither do we hold onto our 'Gentile' distinctives. We are simple the Children of God by faith in His Son, and consequently known as Christians, and ot Jews or Gentiles.

Just my observations. Regards.

Corinthians just mentions not to give offense to non-believers whether Jews or Gentiles and don't give offense to believers either.

You mentioned 2 groups in Revelations:

1. Jews from the 12 tribes
2. All kinds of peoples

But even more key would be this verse, telling where all the non-Jewish people came from:

Rev 7:14  And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

To believe that the first was simple the actual RACIAL Jews from the 12 tribes, and the second were somehow Christian non-Jews.

One would have to prove that all Christians go through the great tribulation.

Where are the Christians in this scenario who died long before the Great Tribulation, those who never went through the tribulation?

The bible tells you who is a Jew and who is not a Jew:

Rom 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Who cares which of the 2 guys was born first in the middle east. The local god worshiped by my ancestors was first for my people, and it worked out fantastic for us. Believe what you want but keep it to yourself or religious violence will persist till eternity.

Dear Drusilla,

Drusilla:

Blood from animals could not make one perfect but they could atone for sin for a while. The same as Jesus atoned for our sins, but since our covenant is a better covenant, our atonement through Jesus makes us perfect.

I'd have to agree with your reasoning about the OT sacrifices atonin[/b]g for the sins of the people according to the Law; but I'm not quite sure that even that could be equated to Jesus' vicarious sacrifice.

Drusilla:

Jesus Christ left their house desolate (the abomination of desolation) it's not like they could offer the sacrifices today anyways.

[b]That was the point of the 'abomination of desolation' to take away the first covenant through which the blood of goats and bulls could atone for sins, yearly.

The Abomination of Desolation, is still in effect.

The 'abomination of desolation' spoken of in Matt. 24:15 was not meant to take away the first covenant, for it was a prophecy indexed from Daniel 9:26 and pointing to the persecution of the Jews by the 'prince that shall come' with one mission: to 'destroy the city and the sanctuary'.

However, in Matt. 23:37-38 Jesus declared "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate" as a direct judgement upon obstinate Jews who rejected and killed the prophets sent to them, the climax of which is their rejection and crucifixion of the Son of God (read verses 34-36).

The first covenant was done away with for the simple reason that God Himself gave in Hebrews 10:6 - "In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure." This is the basic premise right from the very first verse of that chapter (Heb. 10:1) that you even had quoted in your reply. It was because the Law only had a shadow of the good things to come and not the very image/substance, the sacrifices contained in them could not serve to the end of perfecting those who drew near in worship to God. Thus, the first covenant was taken away that the second may be established.

In summary, the first covenant was not faulted on Matt. 23:38 ('your house is left unto you desolate'); for had the obstinate Jews never killed or stoned any of the prophets for which judgement was pronounced in that chapter, it still would not have left 'the shadow' of the old covenant standing whilst the Messiah was long promised in Gen. 3:15 & 22:18 even before the Law was enacted.

Drusilla:

To believe that the first was simple the actual RACIAL Jews from the 12 tribes, and the second were somehow Christian non-Jews.
One would have to prove that all Christians go through the great tribulation.
Where are the Christians in this scenario who died long before the Great Tribulation, those who never went through the tribulation?

The point isn't whether or not Christians go through any tribulation, however that may be. Rather, the fundamental point is that Christians are not Jews - for in the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile. Romans 2:28-29 is not proof text for Christians being called 'Jews' - you will not find that idea sustained anywhere in Scripture. The subsequent chapters of Romans shows that both Jews and Gentiles are sinners before a holy and righteous God, as seen in chapter 3:9 & 10 - 'What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.'

The bottom line is that both Jews (including the ones in Rom.2:28-29) and Gentiles, all stand before God as sinners - and all are in need of God's redemptive grace, offered in Jesus Christ:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:23-24).

m4malik:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:23-24).

I am just interested in the last quotation, does it mean that God is unfair, considering the fact that he uses one person's sin to punish others, in this case the entire humanity?

Yes? Why?
No? Also why?

Please if you feel that you do not have an answer, just ignore it, I do not have time to be addressing personality attacks. Thank you.

Dear Logical,

I have learnt in the last few weeks, and I'm still learning. Like you, I'm least interested in attacking any person - if at all in the least. But that does not mean that statements can't be made or referenced as to what people have done and why those things were committed with a jusitifying twist. As long as people feel that others have no right to live because they choose to have separate beliefs, then we continue to question and challenge such reasonings.

Now, on to your enquiry:

Logical:

m4malik link=topic=21871.msg586897#msg586897 date=1157090710:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:23-24).

I am just interested in the last quotation, does it mean that God is unfair, considering the fact that he uses one person's sin to punish others, in this case the entire humanity?

Yes? Why?
No? Also why?

I don't think it is a question of God being "fair" or "unfair"; rather, it is more a question God's mercy declaring what man is in His sight, and what He does about man's condition in seeking to redeem him. Read the text again - it says all have sinned; it does not say that one man alone sinned. If we could keep things in contextual perspectives, confusions would be minimised.

God is just; but it would be untenable to reason that God's fairness could be predicated on man's assumptions. From the day that Adam disobeyed God, man has suffered the effect of that disobedience.

Even in Islam, there's a belief that every human being that comes into the world is tainted by sin, as attributed to Al-Bukhari (Sahih al-Bukhari, VI, 54, Bk. 60, chap. 54, trad. 71), in which Muhammad was reported to have said: "Satan touches every child when it is born, whereupon it starts crying loudly, except Mary and her son." The Ayatollah Khomeini was said to have made the statement reflecting that Islamic belief - "You should pay attention and all of us should pay attention (to the fact) that man's calamity is his carnal desire, and this exists in everybody, and it is rooted in the nature of man."

The point is that you can't hinge a blame on God being "unfair" simply because Rom. 3:23-24 appears in the Bible. I'm sure you would have had no problem with that if it rather appeared in the Qur'an. Do you still think God is "unfair" after reading what Muhammad and Ayatollah Khomeini said??

I would rather offer that it is an act of divine mercy that God would not leave man in such a condition of sin and death - and I'm really thankful that as a sinner, I have been "justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

@m4malik
I was going to response to TayoD's declaration that you had answered Bab's core questions, by your personal opinion of what each of the verses that you quotad mean. My brother TayoD, if you believe that m4malik did a good job, then here and now, I tell you that I have a Bridge in New York City to sell and you will be a perfect buyer at meager sum of 50,000,000 USD cash to me. When you are ready to pay up let me know. By the way that is a New York saying that one is gguillibe.

m4malik
You quoted Prophet Muhammad (AS) to show that no one is without sin. However the truth is that (AS) stated that three groups are excused from Sins; The young before puberty, the one who is mentally sick and the one who is uncoscious like in the state of awareness, eg, asleep or in coma.
(AS) did not say anywhere in his hadith and it is not recorded in the Qur'an that a person is born with sin because of the sin of Adam, Adam repented and his Creator accepted his repentance. You will read this in Suratul Baqarah. As to the touch of Shaitan, the accursed, it shows that the devil starts his evil deeds on human being from the time of birth. If every child were to be born with an original sin, then a child that died at birth will go to hell fire without any doubt because there would not have been any repentance or as per your argument the washing away of that sin by the blood of Jesus. That child would not have confessed. If on the other hand, a small child who was being nursed by the mother bit the mother while being nursed or do other discomforting action, all of these while still a babe, and the child dies, as per your argument, the child would be an inmate of hell.
Now, to quote Muhammad (AS), in his hadith, he said every one is born a muslim, but it is the parent that will change that child to be Christian or Jew. Remember that One can still change to another religion after one is no more under the authority/responsibility/roof of the parent. Infact there is ability to change even before one sees death. You are a good example, you are born into a Muslim home, you have apostated, yet there is still a chance for you to change back to islam or even change to something completely differnt. The bottom line is if you are on the straight line, the path to Paradise, the result of the Mercy of God.

I am surprised that you quoted Hebrew, Roman, Corithian and the likes to support your argument. You quoted Saul/Paul (Lanatullahi aleyhi) extensively. Further, you did not pay attention to the tone of the speakers/writers of the new testament, the Gospel verses that you quoted. At best they were third persons, neither Jesus nor his companions, even they were not eyewitnesses. At best it was an account of hearsays. In the courts of America, hearsay is not permissible. hence your whole argument is Zero. remember thatyou are not a Bible scholar and yes, even the Bible scholarship has no substantial foundation. The companions of Jesus (AS), from every account did not receive instructions from jesus (AS) nor did they take the initiatives to write revelation as it comes down to Jesus (AS) nor the saying and deeds and what Jesus permitted them to do. Unlike in Islam, Muhammad (AS), from the first revelation to the last, there were scribes,who he insrtucted to write them down. They were always more than one scribes. The texts were recited in Salah, in ceremonies, taught to each other, one another, recited in every part of muslim life which included even parting or saying goodbyes, inshort they were memorized and put into practical usage and acted upon. The chain of recitation is unbroken even up to the present era. As to the hadith, Abu Huraira (RA), used to shadow his prophet (AS), recording every thing that was said, every action and what he permitted. Others did the same. Education was very paramount to Islamic knowledge and the Muslims learnt and acted. As for Abu Huraira, some companions (RA) complained to the messenger (AS) about his writing every thing about him and from him down, fearing that since Qur'an was the only thing that (AS) had instructed to be qriting down, the Messenger (AS) told them to leave Abu Huraira alone in his penmanship. You will see the difference between Qur'an, the hadith versus the Bible in its textural collections. Islam does not allow any one to doctor the Holy book and the hadith has specific ruling.

(AS) stated that whoever makes any wrong statement about him (AS), that person should take his place in Hellfire.
Sometimes, over this weekend, I shall respond to your entries and recommend a comprehensive book to you titled what did Jesus (AS) really say. By the way the Jesse which a prophet will come from to continue the covenant is not a Jew/Children of Israel. Jesus is not that prophet. Yes there is a Jesse other than the father of Prophet David (AS). He, this jesse whose lineage came this prophet is the Son of another Prophet, Prophet Ismail (AS), the first son and at a time in the life of Ibrahiim, his only son (AS).

Remember that the issue is the role of Jesus, limited to the Jews or extended to the whole Universe. We are only interest in what Jesus said about himself, to some extend what his companions recorded directly from him. I am sure you will never be able to provide any. We are not interested in what Saul/Paul the liar has to say. His condition is with God.
As for Muhammad, while he was alive, his companions included, Jews, Arabs, European, Asians, Africans, Men and Women, Young and Old, slaves and nobilities, poor and wealthy, etc. People outside the arab penisula came to see him, joined his religion. God commanded him (AS), directly to preach to the world. (AS) then wrote letters to the ruers of thye major civilations as a result of this. He wrote to the empror of Rome, the King of Prussia, the Byzentine king and others to include the African King in Ethopia. The text was very simple but direct, ' Dear King, I am Muhammad, the messenger of Allah. Accept Islam and be benefitted. If you refuse, be witnessed that we are Muslims, submitting our will to God' .

Dear Olabowale,

Nice to read from you again. However, I need hardly respond to your rejoinder just above; but for the mere reason that you had read me completely out of context and missed the point by many miles, I'll oblige you a few corrections.

olabowale:

I was going to response to TayoD's declaration that you had answered Bab's core questions, by your personal opinion of what each of the verses that you quotad mean. My brother TayoD, if you believe that m4malik did a good job, then here and now, I tell you that I have a Bridge in New York City to sell and you will be a perfect buyer at meager sum of 50,000,000 USD cash to me. When you are ready to pay up let me know. By the way that is a New York saying that one is gguillibe.

First, those are not my 'personal opinion' of what each of the verses mean in response to Babs787; and it would be just great to see what is your own understanding (or personal opinion) of the verses. When you go through the Bible, you'll see how they connect and what they point to, and I'm not in the least interested in long drawn-out debates of choosy denials of Biblical texts. My response was aptly pointing out to Babs that his fundamental enquiry as to Jesus being sent to the whole world meets with a resounding "yes" - both from Biblical prophecy and fulfillment.

olabowale:

You quoted Prophet Muhammad (AS) to show that no one is without sin. However the truth is that (AS) stated that three groups are excused from Sins; The young before puberty, the one who is mentally sick and the one who is uncoscious like in the state of awareness, eg, asleep or in coma. (AS) did not say anywhere in his hadith and it is not recorded in the Qur'an that a person is born with sin because of the sin of Adam

So, where did I state that a person is born with sin because of the sin of Adam? Rather, two statements in my earlier reply are:

(a) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:23-24).

(b) "Even in Islam, there's a belief that every human being that comes into the world is tainted by sin" (not born with sin); and then I referenced statements attributed to Muhammad and Ayatollah Khomeini to underscore that Islamic belief. In any case, the problem really isn't mine; and if you have any issues with that, then I guess you'd have to take Muhammad to task on his statement that "Satan touches every child when it is born".

olabowale:

Adam repented and his Creator accepted his repentance. You will read this in Suratul Baqarah. As to the touch of Shaitan, the accursed, it shows that the devil starts his evil deeds on human being from the time of birth.

So, you're not denying then that Muhammad made the statement I referenced as to Satan touching every child when it is born? Good to know.

olabowale:

If every child were to be born with an original sin, then a child that died at birth will go to hell fire without any doubt because there would not have been any repentance or as per your argument the washing away of that sin by the blood of Jesus. That child would not have confessed. If on the other hand, a small child who was being nursed by the mother bit the mother while being nursed or do other discomforting action, all of these while still a babe, and the child dies, as per your argument, the child would be an inmate of hell.

Quaint that you attribute the idea that 'every child were to be born with an original sin' to me, when in fact you just stated that "the devil starts his evil deeds on human being from the time of birth." Now, how do you reconcile your ideas that the devil starts his evil deeds at the time of birth, and yet excuse some classes of people from that evil deed so that "a child that died at birth will go to hell fire" according to you?

What I'm persuaded from the Bible is that children are regarded as innocent being without knowledge of evil ('. . .and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil' - Deut. 1:39); and Jesus in the NT underscored that by a direct insinuation that the kingdom of God belongs to children (Matt. 19:14; Mark 10:14 & Luke 18:16) - which would mean that children are not sent to hell when they die.

olabowale:

Now, to quote Muhammad (AS), in his hadith, he said every one is born a muslim, but it is the parent that will change that child to be Christian or Jew. Remember that One can still change to another religion after one is no more under the authority/responsibility/roof of the parent. Infact there is ability to change even before one sees death. You are a good example, you are born into a Muslim home, you have apostated, yet there is still a chance for you to change back to islam or even change to something completely differnt. The bottom line is if you are on the straight line, the path to Paradise, the result of the Mercy of God.

Glad to know that I'm a good example of one who can change even before one sees death - and yes, I have changed my mind about the One whose deity, crucifixion, resurrection and saving grace are denied in Islam. You may call that apostacy, and I could sympathize with that; but you really have no idea what blessing and reassurance of divine peace rest in the heart of those who know Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. I implore you to consider the offer of mercy from the sinless One who truly saves - Jesus Christ the Son of the Living God.

olabowale:

I am surprised that you quoted Hebrew, Roman, Corithian and the likes to support your argument. You quoted Saul/Paul (Lanatullahi aleyhi) extensively.

Why the surprise? I'm sorry to say that Paul is not what Muslim haters have labelled him down through the ages; and I'm not one of those who blindly write him off.

olabowale:

Further, you did not pay attention to the tone of the speakers/writers of the new testament, the Gospel verses that you quoted. At best they were third persons, neither Jesus nor his companions, even they were not eyewitnesses. At best it was an account of hearsays.

Selective denials again, and like I said earlier, it is not in the least of my interests to be drawn out in choosy denials of Biblical texts. I would strongly disagree with you by pointing out the following references:

Rebuttal #1 - "they were not eyewitnesses"??

In direct speech, Jesus said to the disciples (the apostles whom He had chosen): "And ye are witnesses of these things" (Luke 24:48). The inspired writer Luke is many times accused by Muslims as misrepresenting the Gospel because he was not one of the twelve; but this is what he said from the onset: "Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word" (Luke 1:2).

Move on from Luke, and read what another disciple and apostle of Jesus Christ recorded from Jesus' own lips: "And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning" (John 15:27). Later on the same apostle reiterated this vital element that Muslims deny today about the eyewitness account of the apostles. Hear him: " This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true" (John 21:24).

Rebuttal #2 - "it was an account of hearsays"??

Hear John again - an apostle with firsthand report of the Gospel of Jesus Christ: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ." (1 John 1:1-3).

Another apostle, Peter, has this to say: "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty." (2 Pet. 1:16).

Besides all this, may I appeal to your intellectual honesty to understand that there is just no way the Qur'an would have made reference to the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Sura 003:003) if Muhammad did not get it from the same Gospels in the Bible that many Muslims now disparage as "hearsays". In effect, they would be saying that *Allah* was claiming to have sent down and confirmed the "hearsays" of secondhand accounts of the Gospel of Jesus. In Sura 005:068, Muhammad was commanded to say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord" (YUSUFALI's trans.). Isn't that interesting? And the next verse in Sura 005:069 says: "Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve."

Your argument therefore is zero, and is only tantamount to a slant of not having studied carefully what that "Gospel" is that the Qur'an applauds, and which you in the 21st century now call "hearsays." Not even the supreme court of the United States would be that gullible.

olabowale:

In the courts of America, hearsay is not permissible. hence your whole argument is Zero. remember thatyou are not a Bible scholar and yes, even the Bible scholarship has no substantial foundation.

I never claimed to be a Bible scholar; and it would be interesting to see something of your own scholarship on the Bible and the Qur'an before making things worse for yourself.

olabowale:

The companions of Jesus (AS), from every account did not receive instructions from jesus (AS) nor did they take the initiatives to write revelation as it comes down to Jesus (AS) nor the saying and deeds and what Jesus permitted them to do.

Yes sir, and I've dealt with that part of your carping just above by showing how very off point you are. Just remember that Muhammad knew nothing of the Gospel of Jesus outside what the Bible says in the New Testament, nevermind his twisting here and there of a "Gospel" he neither understood nor could defend as he could not tell Muslims what the 'original' Gospel of Jesus contained.

olabowale:

Unlike in Islam, Muhammad (AS), from the first revelation to the last, there were scribes,who he insrtucted to write them down. They were always more than one scribes. The texts were recited in Salah, in ceremonies, taught to each other, one another, recited in every part of muslim life which included even parting or saying goodbyes, inshort they were memorized and put into practical usage and acted upon.

Thanks for reminding us - but there again two things come to mind. Muslims will do anything to deny that the Qur'an they read today is the political redaction of the third Caliph Uthman after he edited what suited him and ordered the other extant copies of the Qur'an to be burnt. Have you thought for a moment the real lesson to be learnt from that? Again, I sympathize whith the Muslim mindset to deny just about anything that they feel uncomfortable with their belief system - I've been there before.

Second, I don't remember Muhammad having been instructed by *Allah* to write down any verse of the Qur'an; so if he instructed his scribes to write down any sura or text of the Qur'an, what then is the big quarrel with the texts of the Bible having been written down for us to read in our day? Moses was instructed by God indeed to write as he was commanded; John was so required to write what we read in the Revelation (Rev. 1:11 & 19); and even so, I don't remember God having a quarrel with the writers He inspired in the Gospel accounts. If it is too much an issue about the writing per se, why not throw out the Qur'an altogether - afterall, as you just acknowledged, it was penned down by Muhammad's scribes.

olabowale:

The chain of recitation is unbroken even up to the present era. As to the hadith, Abu Huraira (RA), used to shadow his prophet (AS), recording every thing that was said, every action and what he permitted. Others did the same. Education was very paramount to Islamic knowledge and the Muslims learnt and acted. As for Abu Huraira, some companions (RA) complained to the messenger (AS) about his writing every thing about him and from him down, fearing that since Qur'an was the only thing that (AS) had instructed to be qriting down, the Messenger (AS) told them to leave Abu Huraira alone in his penmanship. You will see the difference between Qur'an, the hadith versus the Bible in its textural collections. Islam does not allow any one to doctor the Holy book and the hadith has specific ruling.

Thanks again for the lecture. What's the question again?

olabowale:

(AS) stated that whoever makes any wrong statement about him (AS), that person should take his place in Hellfire.

Good then, because those who wrote the Hadith should be sent to Hellfire for having stated the Hadith quotes about Muhammad referenced in most of the replies you read on the Forum.

olabowale:

Sometimes, over this weekend, I shall respond to your entries and recommend a comprehensive book to you titled what did Jesus (AS) really say. By the way the Jesse which a prophet will come from to continue the covenant is not a Jew/Children of Israel. Jesus is not that prophet. Yes there is a Jesse other than the father of Prophet David (AS). He, this jesse whose lineage came this prophet is the Son of another Prophet, Prophet Ismail (AS), the first son and at a time in the life of Ibrahiim, his only son (AS).

Ingenious and creative, but that simply won't sell in a spurious market. How you make out this other Jesse from the lineage of Ismail by a Jewish prophet (Isaiah) addressing Jews (Isaiah 11) would be a good storyline for one of those Nigerian home videos. Unless you'd like to interpolate how the Arabs (Ismail) have ever addressed God by the covenant name with which He revealed Himself to the Jews (as seen in Isa. 11:2, 3, 9 & 15).

olabowale:

Remember that the issue is the role of Jesus, limited to the Jews or extended to the whole Universe. We are only interest in what Jesus said about himself, to some extend what his companions recorded directly from him. I am sure you will never be able to provide any.

Settle down and read through my piece again in my previous reply - did you miss the several texts I referenced? Read John 3:7-21 and see who was speaking. In that portion of Scripture, anyone can see that the speaker was none other than was Jesus Himself, and in verses 15 to 17, this is what He said:

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

Did you catch the last line - "that the world through him might be saved"?? That is Jesus' own statement about His mission to the world, and if you deny that, you can deny just about anything (and I'll let others fill in the blanks for you).

olabowale:

We are not interested in what Saul/Paul the liar has to say. His condition is with God.

This is such a pity, and you may wake up to find that the one you call a liar was indeed telling the truth. Don't let it be too late.

olabowale:

As for Muhammad, while he was alive, his companions included, Jews, Arabs, European, Asians, Africans, Men and Women, Young and Old, slaves and nobilities, poor and wealthy, etc. People outside the arab penisula came to see him, joined his religion. God commanded him (AS), directly to preach to the world. (AS) then wrote letters to the ruers of thye major civilations as a result of this.

What makes you think for a moment that the same classes of people have not been saved by responding in simple faith to the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ? Could you even imagine the peace millions have found in deep crises by only hearing the Gospel of Jesus with His having written any letters?

olabowale:

He wrote to the empror of Rome, the King of Prussia, the Byzentine king and others to include the African King in Ethopia. The text was very simple but direct, ' Dear King, I am Muhammad, the messenger of Allah. Accept Islam and be benefitted. If you refuse, be witnessed that we are Muslims, submitting our will to God' .

Just that - and the world cowered at Muhammad's feet? What did Muhammad do to those who refused and rejected his religion? Is there something you're trying so hard to hide from public reading, or it's just one of those denials again?

Dear Sir, your rejoinder was well appreciated; however, I would have expected a more reasoned discourse from you than the little complaints that failed to consider clear statements from the Bible and instead trump up denials that are unsustained. May I, in closing, offer that you ask God to reveal His loving grace in Jesus Christ to you. It is of little import that most Muslims accuse and slander Paul; what is of vital substance is that the Gospel was being preached long before Paul emerged on the scene. Take a moment to discover God's loving grace in Jesus - there's nothing to lose thereby.

malik4
thanks for the response. i will like to ask u questions based on all u typed. u read all i said but ur answer in not in relation to what i typed. now i will ike to make reference to what u typed?

1]. Gen. 22:18 - 'And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.' God gave this promise to Abraham, in which we understand that there was only one Person that "thy Seed" could be referring to - and that is Jesus Christ, according to Gal. 3:16 - ''Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." Thus, all the nations of the earth are to be blessed in Jesus Christ and none else.

[2]. Isa. 11:10 - 'And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.' The Gentiles are non-Jewish people, and here the text shows that even before Jesus was born, His salvation was promised to people who are not Jews as well. In the NT, Jesus categorically offered His glorious rest to whoever comes to Him by faith (see Matt. 11:28 - 'Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest' ~~ did you notice here that His invitation was to all?).

[3]. Isa. 49:6 - "And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." The last portion of this text is clearly indicative of Jesus Christ who was promised to be God's salvation unto the end of the earth, rather than to only the Jews (notice the possessive pronoun "my" in the statement 'my salvation to the end of the earth' - which shows that God's prophetic word was uttered by the prophet in that text).

[4]. Isa. 52:10 - "The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." Again, a prophetic declaration that God's salvation in Christ was to reach non-Jews as well.


did all the above reference referred to jesus/ what is the proof?

now based on your new testament quote, am still asking the same questions, what is the relationship between those verses and my questions? did he mention gentiles. he said categoriccaly thst he was sent not to the whole world but to his community. what u dont know is that the prophets come preaching the same message. it is like a relay race in which runners exchange baton from each other. if a prophet comes, he will go for another prophet to take over. they all came to preach the oneness of God and his mercifulness. can be an author of confusion? givien ne prophet a religion different from others?

now to this verse u quoted, let me shed more light on it. who said that statement,well majority doesnt know that it was john that said it, many believe itwas jesus.

now i challenge u again, u will not seee this statement(onlybegotten son0 anywhere except in the two books of john i.e. john and the 1st john.

and he was uasing this to convince people,

no let me ask u again, do u think it was john of one of the disciples that wrote it(/ no far from that). i will shed light on that later

Mat 28:18-20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Luke 24:46-47
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

same goes to this ur statement as expalined above, the mesage that the prophets before him has been preaching has to continue, that is why he said they should preach it, but his own message was limited to his community alone,. read the verses up

as for the issue of original sin or inheritedsin, i will shed more light ont that soon

most if the sayings were hearsay , they copied each other and werent there when the incidenthappened, watch out for my contradictions in the bible

i quote from you:

First, those are not my 'personal opinion' of what each of the verses mean in response to Babs787; and it would be just great to see what is your own understanding (or personal opinion) of the verses. When you go through the Bible, you'll see how they connect and what they point to, and I'm not in the least interested in long drawn-out debates of choosy denials of Biblical texts. My response was aptly pointing out to Babs that his fundamental enquiry as to Jesus being sent to the whole world meets with a resounding "yes" - both from Biblical prophecy and fulfillment.

well, i dont quote from mere saying, u saw everything, if not re-read up, he was sent onlyto the jews




u also quoted these:


So, where did I state that a person is born with sin because of the sin of Adam? Rather, two statements in my earlier reply are:

(a) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom 3:23-24).

(b) "Even in Islam, there's a belief that every human being that comes into the world is tainted by sin" (not born with sin); and then I referenced statements attributed to Muhammad and Ayatollah Khomeini to underscore that Islamic belief. In any case, the problem really isn't mine; and if you have any issues with that, then I guess you'd have to take Muhammad to task on his statement that "Satan touches every child when it is born".

now all ur statement contradicts Jesus'teachins. but will come to that later.
u were laying empahsis on pauline doctrine and not jesus

hey
Rebuttal #1 - "they were not eyewitnesses"??

In direct speech, Jesus said to the disciples (the apostles whom He had chosen): "And ye are witnesses of these things" (Luke 24:48). The inspired writer Luke is many times accused by Muslims as misrepresenting the Gospel because he was not one of the twelve; but this is what he said from the onset: "Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word" (Luke 1:2).


u didnt the above statement, he dedicsted the verse to Theophilus. read it very well.

@m4malik; Again I belive without any doubt that you did not answer the core question of babs787 of this thread. I have prepared a response for you, but I also realize that i have no intention of going through an unnecessary dialogue where I can sense that there is no benefit to any of the participants. As one of the Imams of the Muslims said ' If I dialogue with an intelligent person, I will win, but if I dialogue with a fool, he will win, because regardless of whatever I say, he will not get any good from it'.

You do know that the bible was not in its original text, irregardless of the languages you find it in today. What I read in High School, prior to 1971 is different from what was distributed to the fresh man class of 1971 and later years. Of course, which version of the Bible are we going to believe is acceptable to the christian religion. Is there any portion of the bible that remain unchanged from the time that it came to whichever prophet it was revealed? Can you invoke the punishment of the Lord of the world upon yourself if you lie against God the Almighty and upon His servant Jesus son of Mary, that Jesus is part of God other than Jesus is a prophet and servant of God. I am ready and all muslims are ready to invoke this curse if Jesus is more than a servant/prophet of Allah, strictly sent to the Children of Israel only and no one else.

You tried to associate Jesus with a Jesse mentioned in the Bible, the old testament to be precise. But you forgot that Jesus was mentioned as the son of King david, who is also a prophet of Allah. remember that the Psalm was revealed to him (AS). By the way between King David and his father Jesse, ( who on his own was not an important figure, except that his son was a young victorious warrior at a young age when he slained Goliat, and later became a King and a prophet) who is worthy of being mentioned as an ancestor of Jesus son of mary, knowing fully well that Jesus was also a prophet of God. Remember that since Ismail (AS) was at some point in the life of Ibrahiim (AS), his only son and as I have said Jesse was one of the sons of Ismail (AS). Therefore, the revelation of isaiah which mentioned Jesse could also refer to this jesse. I hereby confirm to you that if you coupled this with the revelation in the Bible about the rejected stone become so important that it is the corner stone of the building, knowing fully well that the children of Israel become so prejudicial and racist in their deed so much so that they wrote off the lineage of their father's uncle (the older brother of their grandfather, by the way he was 13 years older than him). But the promise of God to Ibrahiim was solely to Ibrahiim for the benefit of his seeds, the righteous among them, not to include the evil doers. You remember how Ibrahiim lamented about his son Ismail.

By the way in the Bible you will read that Ibrahiim did not take Ismail and Ismail's mother Hajar to the wilderness (The City of makka), untill Ismail was at least 13 years old. This is because it is stated very clearly in the Bible that Isiaqa (AS) his younger brother, born by sarah was already born and the age between the two of them was 13 years. Hence you will realize that when in the Bible it is stated that Ibrahiim put him on his shoulder on this journey, i must ask you if you know any old person who can carry a 13 year old person on his shoulder for a journey of such significany distance. Remember that Ibrahiim was 86 years old when he had Ismail and 99 years old when he had isiaqa. Which book is contradicting itself. rather who is not telling the truth.

Finally, I heard a recitation of Suratul mariam this morning and i want you to go and read it. While you are at it, read Suratul Al maidah, Al imran, Suratul Nisaa, then read suratul Suratul haqqa, Suratul Quiyyama, Suratul Mulk and Ikhlas. Read these surahs with clean and clear mind and ask for God's guidance. Remember to take proper shower and the wudu. I am sure that God will open your heart and let His light enter your heart and His mercy will make your heart soft.

MalikI?/
dont waste so much of your time quoting their quran? a book that can be crammed? They are looking for people to test their knowledge of their book.

The Sword was the method of their preaching you and I know. Their book is like any mathematical formular you can cramm it and use it to brain wash people.

Quran when its gets to 2000 years like bible we will see what happens. you dont ask this question Why do they have a problem with our holy book? Why cant dey ISLAMISE ALL THE JEWs IN JERUSALEM? For Where ? dem fit?

They spread Islam because rome was thrown down, forget their books. The books is a fraud, the author wrote lies in In it. if you talk about the bible I will defend. but if you compare SATAN TO JESUS no need.

We think by comparing their Quran to our Bible we will make any headway no sir! The truth is that Muhamed will be Judged by Jesus My GOD. Did you not hear what Jesus said My sheep hear my voice. We are not of their fold we can never be. One is a lie and the other is false.

I know that the Arabs were people that took in the early christians when they ran away from the persecutions from Roman persecution those times. What made the change? Since then they have learnt a new religion and want us to be muslims by force. Thats why JESUS MY GOD SAYS I send you as sheeps amongst wolves be wise as serpent.

Imagine a muslim that serves Allah wants me argue with him on comparison of My God Jesus. If Brother Muhamed had time he would have said all kinds of things. The bible Categorically calls him a false Prophet, Antichrist because he did not call Jesus The SON OF GOD and GOD HIMSELF. My brother Just Leave them when they come with two books in their hands. If they come with one book I will teach them, their books is wrong. if it is correct why do they need ours. It is a style of satan to divert our attention from the bible and JESUS OUR GOD. Why not Hinduism Budhaism and all the TYs and ISM's.

from what I hear you say you are grounded in the word use the word to face sinners that need to be saved for this other people you can only pray for them because they think they know the truth but are damned. I will rather follow some that can set me free from sin that one that puts a sword on my neck and say I should Allah akbar for what. God said I will love who I love and hate who he hates Who art thou.

@Backslider; Yet you crammed the math formulae. You used it to advance from on elevel of academics to another. Yet, it served as a foundation to you. You can still refer to it to benefit you.

Qur'an is more than that. It is not easily crammed. It is etched on your heart. It brings wisdom.

No one is permissable to force anyone to accept Islam. Whoever does it, forcing people to accept Islam has gone against the injuction of God. Muhammad(AS) did not fight those who did not startup a fight with him. Islam was not spread by Sword. If it was there would never have been non muslims in Madina during the lifetime of Muhammad. Infact, there wuold not havwe remain any non Muslims in Arabia. When India was ruled by Muslims, they did not force the Hindu and Sikh into Islam. They ruled India for about 8 centuaries. Further, when Muslims ruled Europe from Spain, they did not force anyone to Islam.

My bloodline was not forced into islam. So what are you talking about. Read your History, know your history.

@Jagunlabi

"Aha!Christians Vs Muslims battle,round 10000000.
The two simple truths;

1)Jesus belongs to the jews,strictly
2)Muhammad belongs to arabs,strictly

End of story.If you black africans are looking for your own saviour,or your own prophet,then y'all should pray to God to send them down to you direct."

EXACTLY MY BROTHER I CONCUR WITH.
BACK TO THE QUESTION NONE OF THE ABOVE

Please dont equate the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross for the atonement of our sins with animal sacrifices that was the norm of the day, prior to His death. For the Holy Bible says, "Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Jesus was sent to deliver the African Jews from the Grasp of the Romans. But when the Africans did not see the physical manifestations of this deliverance a la Samson, they denied the messiah.

But Europeans all over the Roman Empire accepted Jesus even though he wasn't sent to them and they tried to manipulate the scriptures to qualify themselves for the grace.

Muhammed was a "Hitler" who knew the vital role of religion in his mission of conquering the world. He went unto the "mountain" and used scriptures of the Bible, both those that were included by the Roman Catholic Church and the rest that were discarded as a template to pen his Quran.

why ask muan dat kin question? me know jah is gud& loves me. dats wata guan. clik https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-66080.0.html#bot and grab da ril thin. just spreadin da seeds

babs787:
lady, thats not the issue. what did u say all that he said he was not sent to gentiles and that his disciples should not go to gentiles too, didnt u read that he called gentiles dog and israel son. read everything and challenge me with any quotation from the bible or elsewhere. proof all things and hold which is true

Jesus Christ was sent by His Father, the God of Israel, only to the Lost Sheep of Israel.