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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God (11910 Views)
Those Doubting The Existence Of God,what Is The Source Of Supernatural Powers / The Scientific And Empirical Proof That God Truly Exists / The Much Awaited Empirical Evidence!! (2) (3) (4)
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Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by DeepSight(m): 5:47pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
I am opening this discussion specifically for Atheists on Nairaland. I have noticed that the Atheists are often very intelligent people, almost to a fault, and have strong respect for rational thinking. I am neither Christian nor Muslim, but i am convinced that logical reasoning can prove the existence of God. Tudor is my specific target in this discussion. The levels of reasoning required to set out this argument are very intricate - for this reason i will build up the argument slowly, one step at a time. Those not inclined to deep reflection on matters of spirituality and logic, please keep off, this is an academic and theological discourse only and i am not interested in the views of any religious fanatics save to the extent that they may contribute in an academic and logical fashion to the discourse. So lets kick it off: Tudor, do you agree with this equation - 0 + 0 = 0. |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by PastorAIO: 6:13pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
I'm looking forward to a fatal blow . . . . |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by Tudor6(f): 6:17pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Before we begin, I'd like to ask, does this your "empirical reasoning" prove beyond doubt that there's actually a god? |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by DeepSight(m): 6:21pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Yes it does, Tudor. So go ahead and answer the question: You accept that 0 + 0 = 0? p.s: i'm kinda new to N/L, i would like some others in on this, dont know how to contact them - particularly a guy called Prizm, very sound reasoning he's got - also very technical & academic, no sentiments. Also Wirinet, KAG, $osisi, Davidylan, Adaku & ors |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by mazaje(m): 6:31pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
I am an atheist and I know that 0 + 0 = 0 so what next do you have to say?. . . .I am really interested in your empirical reasoning for the existence of your god(christian god). . .i have never heard that kind of argument before because most christians i know accept the existence of the christian god based purely on faith and not on some empirical grounds. . . . .if you have empirical reasoning and arguments pls bring it on. . . . |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by Tudor6(f): 6:33pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Good. As far as we know, 0+0 = 0 |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by posakosa(m): 6:37pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
I don't think that empirical reasoning can show beyond a reasonable doubt that there is a god. |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by DeepSight(m): 6:40pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Thanks Mazaje. To clarify, as i said above, i am not christian. Or muslim. Nevertheless evidence of God's existence is all around us. But we will pursue the logical path to understanding it. Since i see the Atheists only respond to empirical reasoning. We've got it in abundance. @ Posokasa: Wait and see. Now we are on the same page, we all agree that 0 + 0 = 0. Therefore, no amalgamation or configuration of any amount of nothings ("0" ![]() ![]() |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by mazaje(m): 6:47pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Deep Sight: sorry. . i thought you were a christian. . . Nevertheless evidence of God's existence is all around us. it depends on what exactly you mean by god. . . .if by god you mean the natural laws of the universe like gravity then sure. . but if by god you mean all the gods of man made religions then i know for sure that non of them exist. . . . . But we will pursue the logical path to understanding it. Since i see the Atheists only respond to empirical reasoning. We've got it in abundance. @ Posokasa: Wait and see. This is true for the human society and the planet in which we live in but that can not be said to be true for the universe or things that exist outside our planet because we don't know for now. . . . . . . . |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by Tudor6(f): 6:53pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Agreed. This is a discussion and i'd expect to be able to ask a question or two so am clear. . . Theres a reason i used "As far as we know" when i agreed with your equation. . . I'm not a mathematics expert but i'd like to ask, That 2 + 2 = 4 on earth does it mean 2 + 2 = 4 all over the galaxies of the universe? Does pi equal 3.14 in all billions of galaxies?. . . .any mathematician in the house? |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by posakosa(m): 6:59pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
I don't know about the outside galaxy conversation we are having but some maths experts have been able to show that 1 + 1 may not necessarily equal 2, ![]() ![]() |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by Nobody: 7:01pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Tudór: On which other galaxy is 2+2 not equal to 4? |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by canuck(m): 7:01pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
@ Poster I am a born-again Christian, but I can tell you right now you're going down the wrong path. Save yourself the trouble. You're attempting to rehash Guido Ubaldus' so called "proof" of existence of God. Ubaldus was an 18th century mathematician/philosopher/engineer/priest rolled into one. He rolled out an infinite series that concludes with 0 = 1, meaning something is created out of nothing, and therefore God exists! The operation of his infinite series (that concludes with 0 = 1) is wrong, since he's dealing with Ellipses. The work did not abide with a basic math principle that 'alternating series diverges'. If 0 = 1, then it proves that math is unreliable, not that God exists. I was raised by professors (one of my parents is a math professor) and the series has been faulted a long time ago. And who told you atheists can believe in God's existence through math? I find it equally funny that believers are categorized as imbeciles while atheists are smart?! Are you kidding me? My almost-70-yr-old Mom will run rings 'round the smartest atheist in physics, math, and general science but she's a solid believer. These guys are atheists by choice, and a believer also believes by choice. The knowledge of God is the BEGINNING of all wisdom. |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by PastorAIO: 7:02pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Tudór: pi has never been equal to 3.14 but has only been approximately 3.14. The only way that pi could be a different number would be if space were no longer Euclidean. 2 plus 2 equals 4, not on earth or anywhere in the vast reaches of Space/galaxy/universe, but in the mind of the person thinking about them. These numbers and functions are abstractions. They are not referring to any physical event in the universe. |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by DeepSight(m): 7:05pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Thanks again Mazaje. At this point i agree with you that we need to Clarify the nature of the "God" of which we speak. The "God" whose existence i seek to prove is not necessarily exactly as described by religion, but does share most of the attributes imputed to him. To be specific, i speak of a Conscious & Intelligent Supernatural Being responsible for the creation of all that exists in totality. @ Tudor, Mazaje, You dont need to worry about 0 + 0 = 0 being applicable to anything outside the universe or elsewhere in existence. It is sufficient that it is manifestly the case as regards this planet, we can take it from there. We will start from home, planet earth - ok by you? If 0 + 0 = 0, then for the world to exist, the minimum equation would have to be 0 + 1 = 1. Agreed? |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by posakosa(m): 7:09pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
canuck answered your question. |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by posakosa(m): 7:10pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
@ Deep Sight my question to you is: how did that 1 come into existence ? |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by mazaje(m): 7:12pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
posakosa: My thoughts exactly. . .where and how did the 1 come into play. . . . |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by Tudor6(f): 7:20pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Pastor AIO:so pastor, could it be tha t 0+0=0 is also a mind concept and has nothing to do with any physical event in the universe? |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by DeepSight(m): 7:21pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
@ Posakosa; Canuck did not answer my question, Canuck only shared with us the theories of a philosopher/ mathematician which were debunked. The process i intend to reason through is quite different from the process adopted by that philosopher/ mathematician. I indicated in the beginning that this is a very intricate reasoning process, so i will crave your indulgence not to jump too far ahead. We will come eventually to where the "1" came from. Let us start first by simply accepting if we can that for there to be 1, the minimum equation would be 0 + 1 = 1. In other words that there must be a "something" before "something" can be, and that no amalgamation or configuration of nothings, will make a something. @ Canuck - i really love your contribution, its very insightful. I did not mean to suggest that believers are not smart, after all, i myself belive in God's existence and even purpose. What i wanted to avoid is simply the arrival of fanatics on the thread. The sort of people who may call Tudor and the rest demon possessed just because they have a different world-view. |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by canuck(m): 7:26pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
OK, fire away! |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by Tudor6(f): 7:29pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
@Deep sight. Slow your roll. . . .lets first establish that 0 + 0 = 0 all over the universe then we can go ahead. . . |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by mazaje(m): 7:34pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Tudór: He has already made an exception for the planet in which we live in so lets see how he carries on. . . . fire on deep sight. . . . |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by Chrisbenogor(m): 7:36pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
@ Deep Sight You seem to be making a very fundamental mistake, just like canuck pointed out what you are about to posit is either that mathematicians thoughts or a revised version of your own. There is no emiprical reason for the existence of God which you should have defined in the first place. Do you mean the montheistic God of Christianity Islam and Judaism or do you mean sango or amadioha or do you just mean a prime mover? Do us a favour and fast forward to the part where you say something has to create something and that something which creates something does not have to be created. Then the question you will refuse to answer is how then do you know if that thing listens to thoughts has a heaven or a hell or 72 virgins. Either way your argument is doomed from the onset, all we are going to do is speculate and speculate. |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by Chrisbenogor(m): 7:38pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Just go down the best route, the absence of evidence, simple. Now time to have fun on my saints thread. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by toneyb: 7:44pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
mazaje: Most christians claim that their god is not conceivable hence the heavey reliance on faith and the frequent use of that line for special pleading in all cases. They get to make up various claims about their god and what ever nature they feel like ascribing unto him using logic, or pseudologic but you don't get to use logic to refute their claims because they run to the faith argument and the ridiculous line that their god is inconceivable for one reason or the other. |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by DeepSight(m): 8:03pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Tudór: Is it your expectation that the laws of physics change? (Be very careful in reflecting on this question). Also; even if, for the sake of argument we accept that the laws of physics change, we must perforce accept that nothing can change with reference to the zero quantity - nothingness or infinity - for the very reason that the very nature of zero is nothing. Therefore there is nothing to actually change at all - nothing exists. For this reason, in all circumstances and at all places, the zero quantity, by definition, remains zero. Thus even if the dubious principle that physical laws change can be accepted, once we speak of the zero quantity, there is quite simply nothing to change. Not in any circumstance. So yes - 0 + 0 = 0. Everywhere. Agreed? Chrisbenogor: @ Chrisbenogor - In my earlier post i defined the God i am speaking of. The Uncaused Cause. I also specifically described Him as a Conscious & Intelligent Supernatural Being responsible for the creation of all that exists. |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by DeepSight(m): 8:17pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Chrisbenogor: Easy, lets take it jeje, its a profound discussion, we will get there |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by Tudor6(f): 8:31pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Deep Sight: Is it your expectation that they cannot change? Also; even if, for the sake of argument we accept that the laws of physics change, we must perforce accept that nothing can change with reference to the zero quantity - nothingness or infinity - for the very reason that the very nature of zero is nothing. Therefore there is nothing to actually change at all - nothing exists. For this reason, in all circumstances and at all places, the zero quantity, by definition, remains zero. Like mazaje said, you've made an exception for our physical universe. . .so lets move on. |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by mazaje(m): 8:34pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Deep Sight: What makes it dubious? There is no reason at all to believe that the universe must behave like the human society. The universe is what it is and we have no reason to believe that it must behave like the human society or the planet in which we live in after all the planet in which we live in is just like a tea spoon full out of an ocean compared to the rest of the universe as a whole. . . . . . . .The laws of physics that applies here must not necessarily apply in other parts of the universe. . no reason to believe other wise. . . . . @ Chrisbenogor - In my earlier post i defined the God i am speaking of. The Uncaused Cause. I also specifically described Him as a Conscious & Intelligent Supernatural Being responsible for the creation of all that exists. When will you guys stop making all these unsubtantiated claims ![]() ![]() |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by DeepSight(m): 8:49pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Deep Sight: @ tudor, mazaje, would you like to respond directly to this rationale on the zero quantity above. mazaje: @ mazaje - i am not a slavish adherent of anything fed to me by any one. You should have noticed that by now. It took me many years to arrive at my conclusions trust me. In the past i have been an Anglican, Jehovah's Witness, Rosicrucian, considered Islam, and almost Crossbearer. I have read the bible, the quoran, the grail message, and many Buddhist, Taoist, shintoist, and even hindu philosophies because i am a SEEKER. So don't worry, lets just reason along little by little, we will get there, |
Re: Atheists: Empirical Reasoning For The Existence Of God by Chrisbenogor(m): 8:54pm On Aug 26, 2009 |
Deep Sight:ok mark my post then, I will watch you try and do the impossible |
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