Quote from Mavenbox -

Christian Hocus Pocus? Deep Sight, do we have a problem here? What do YOU understand about the hebrew and greek words translated as hell? If you want to go down this path, open a new thread and let us deal with it ASAP.

Mavenbox asked me to open this thread.

She believes in hell.

I am particularly interested in this subject because the self same Mavenbox had asserted the following in a recent thread:

 1. That paradise is in Hell

 2. That the tree of life spoken about in the Bible is in Hell

 3. That paradise will be moved from Hell to Heaven at the end of time

 4. That the garden of Eden was in Hell.

Fantastic claims. Bizzarre if you ask me.

Now in all of this she used the word Hades. But i should point out that the word translated as "hell" in the bible are the Hebrew and Greek "Hades" and "Sheol." - which simply mean the grave, or the place if the dead.

In the light of Maven's claims regarding hell, let us ask her to make some sense of this great hell-place - where paradise is - and which is yet asserted to be a place of torture and suffering.

References -

I asked her -

Please educate my ignorance and delineate for me the distinctions between “paradise” and “heaven.”

And she responded with the following:

The word hades occurs ten times in the New Testament, and always refers to the unseen realm of the dead—the receptacle of disembodied spirits where all people who die await for the Lord’s return and judgment. One part of hades, where Jesus and the thief went, is known as paradise

If Goshen was in a plagued Egypt, why can't the temporary paradise be in Hades as the Bible says?

When Christ died, he went to paradise. But the Bible clearly tells us that he went to Hell (Hades), the state of departed spirits. The next verse confirms that indeed he went to Hades.

Act 2:27  For You will not abandon my soul, leaving it helpless in Hades (the state of departed spirits), nor let Your Holy One know decay or see destruction [of the body after death].

WHICH PROVES THAT THE PARADISE HE WENT TO, WAS IN HADES.

The "paradise" place was relocated to heaven, it was no longer a place in "hell"

The tree of life will definitely be relocated along with the entire paradise project.

Don't you just luuuuuuuv these christians. To what extent will they not go?

Oya, Marvelous Maven - over to you.

When you accepted the request to open the thread, simple courtesy would have required you to alert me of the thread's existence. But thanks anyway. I am very busy now, and I will return in some hours.

P.S. By the way, you have managed to edit the information to conceal the attendant reasons why I said whatever I said in the light that I said it, gave the thread a misnomer title (Hell rather than Hades) and many other such disinformation. Is that what your career demands, Mr Lawyer? SMHIP

Madam, please do not make wrong insinuations. I was decent enough to state clearly why i used the word hell in the OP.

Here it is again -

Now in all of this she used the word Hades. But i should point out that the word translated as "hell" in the bible are the Hebrew and Greek "Hades" and "Sheol." - which simply mean the grave, or the place if the dead.

Mavenbox&deepsight, when will ur arguements end?

*shocked*
Movenbox ?

Seeing that I, in the past on NL, have spoken at length on these matters, and Deep Sight seems to remain befuddled: I will simply present the views from another perspective, with some help from an elder Christian friend's blog. The Christian friend, to me, has been known (to me) to be more articulate, and I didn't even know that he had such an article on his blog, until like 30 minutes ago. I will crave everyone's indulgence to let me finish with the posts before I am interrupted with questions.

I begin in the next post.

@Abuzola: Hold your sandals, man.

@Toba: I do not like being misrepresented, and as long as Deep Sight misrepresents my Christian views or my personality, I will keep going for his jugular.

"Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done."

There are [size=14pt]three[/size] Greek words in the New Testament translated by the [size=14pt]one[/size] English word "hell," which fact results in some confusion in people's thinking.

One of these is "Gehenna."

It is the Greek representative of the Hebrew "Ge-Hinnom," or Valley of Hinnom, a deep narrow valley to the south of Jerusalem, where, after the introduction of the worship of the fire-gods by Ahaz, the idolatrous Jews sacrificed their children to the god Molech. After the time of Josiah, when this practice was stopped, it became the common refuse-place of the city, where the bodies of criminals, carcasses of animals, and all sort of filth were cast.

From its depth and narrowness, and its fire and ascending smoke, it became the symbol of the place of the future punishment of the wicked. The word is used in Matthew 5:22 in the phrase "the hell of fire," (Greek), and thus refers to the final abode of the wicked dead which is called in Revelation 19:20 "the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

This lake of fire is in existence now, for the word "prepared" in the Greek of Matthew 25:41 is in the perfect tense which refers to a past completed action having present results. Hell had been already prepared and was in existence when Jesus spoke these words.

There is no one there now. The first occupants of the dreadful place will be the Beast and the false prophet, Satan following them 1000 years afterwards.

Then at the Great White Throne Judgement, which occurs at the close of the Millennium, all lost human beings, the fallen angles, and the demons will also be sent there for eternity.

Our word "hell" is the correct rendering of the word "Gehenna," and should be so translated in the following passages, Matthew 5:22, 22, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 5:6.

The second of these words is "Hades".

Hades is a [size=14pt]transliteration[/size], not a [size=14pt]translation[/size], of the Greek word.

When we transliterate a work we take the spelling of that work over into another language in the respective letter equivalents, whereas when we translate a word, we take the meaning over into that language.

The word Hades itself means "The Unseen." This was the technical Greek religious term used to designate the world of those who departed this life. The Septuagint, namely, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, uses this word to translate the Hebrew "Sheol." which has a similar general meaning.

The "Hades" of the pagan Greek was the invisible land, the realm of shadow, where all Greeks went, the virtuous, to that part called Elysium, the wicked, to the other part called Tartarosas.

The difference between the pagan and Biblical conceptions of Hades is:
The pagan conceives of Hades as the final abode of the dead, whereas the Bible teaches that it is the temporary place of confinement until the Great White Throne Judgement in the case of the wicked dead, and until the resurrection of Christ, in the case of the righteous dead, the latter since they are even going at once to heaven at death (Phil. 1:23).

Similarity:
As the pagan conception of Hades included two parts, so the Biblical idea divided into two parts, the one called paradise (Luke 23:43, but not II Cor. 12:4), or Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22), for the righteous dead, and the other part of the wicked dead having no specific designation except the general word "Hades" (Luke 16:23).

This Greek word is found in the following passages, to be translated and interpreted generally as "Hades," the place of the departed dead, and for the reason that the translators of the Septuagint use this word to express in the Greek language what is meant in the Hebrew by the word "Sheol," the place of the departed dead.

In Matthew 11:23 and Luke 10:15, Capernaum is to be brought down to the realms of the dead, presumably here to that portion of Hades reserved for the wicked, because of its rejection of the attesting miracles of our Lord.

In Luke 16:23, the rich man was in Hades, that part where the wicked dead are kept until the judgment of the Great White Throne.

In Acts 2:27, 31, our Lord at His death went to Hades, the passage in Acts being quoted from Psalm 16;, where the Hebrew in 'Sheol." His soul was not left in Hades, the "paradise" portion, nor did His body in Joseph's tomb see corruption, for He was raised from the dead on the third day. He as the Man of Christ Jesus, possessing a human soul and spirit, as He possessed a human body, entered the abode of the righteous dead, having committed the keeping of His spirit to God the Father (Luke 23:46). The word "grave" in I Corinthians 15:55 is not from the word while "Hades" is a rejected reading. The translation should read, "death."

In Revelation 6:8, Death and Hades follow in the wake of war and famine, Hades ready to receive the dead (as caused by Death) of the Great Tribulation period. In Revelation 20:13,14, Death itself, and Hades with all the wicked dead are cast into the lake of fire.

There are just two places where this Greek word (Hades) should be translated rather than transliterated.

1. In Revelation 1:18, our Lord has the keys or control of The Unseen and of death. That is, He is master of the unseen world which in the Christian system includes Hades, Tartarus, and the kingdom of Satan in the atmosphere of this earth.

2. The other place is Matthew 16:18 where we translate "The Unseen." The word "prevail" in the Greek means "to be strong to another's detriment, to overpower." The word "gates" is an orientalism for the idea of centralized legal authority. Lot sat in the gate of Sodom. Boaz went to the gate of Bethlehem to settle a legal matter with reference to his proposed marriage to Ruth. The word refers to a council. The word "hades" is out of the question here as an adequate translation, because the wicked dead in that place have no power to overcome the Church, and the righteous dead there at the time our Lord spoke these words had neither the desire nor power. The holy angels in heaven would have no such desire. All that is left in the unseen world are Satan and his demons. These constitute the Council in the Unseen that desires to bring about the destruction of the Church.

The third translated "hell" is in II Peter 2:4 where the Greek word is "Tartarus"

Tartarus is the prison of the fallen angels that sinned at the time of the flood (Gen. 6:1-4; I Peter 3:19, 20; Jude 6).

[size=13pt]
These three Greek words, each referring to a different place, all of which are translated by the one word HELL, a fact that causes considerable confusion in interpreting the passages where they occur.[/size]

These words are 'gennna, haides, and tartaroo.' The first comes into English in the word "Gehenna", the second, in the word "hades," and the third, in the word "Tartarus."

Now we will summarily examine the three places again:

[size=13pt]"Geenna" refers to the final abode of the wicked dead, called The Lake of Fire in The Revelation (20:14, 15). Where this word occurs, the translation should be 'hell.'[/size]

It is found in Matthew 5:22, 22, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5; James 5:6.

[size=13pt]"Haides" refers to the temporary abode of the dead before the resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus.[/size]

The part reserved for the wicked dead, called "haides" (Luke 26:23), [the self-same name]

the other for the righteous dead, called Abraham's bosom (Luke 16:22), paradise (Luke 23:24), haides (Acts 2:27, 31);

[size=13pt]Since after the ressurection of Christ, Hades refers to the temporary abode of the wicked dead from those events until the Great White Throne judgement, and the righteous dead going at once to be with the Lord (Phil. 1:23; II Cor. 5:8 ).[/size]

The word "haides" is from the Greek stem "id" which means "to see," and the Greek letter "Alpha" prefixed which makes the composite word mean "not to see," the noun meaning "the unseen." The word itself in its noun form refers to the unseen world made up of all moral intelligence's not possessing a physical body.

These would include the holy angels, the fallen angels, the demons, the wicked dead, and the righteous dead. As to the inhabitants in the unseen world, the holy angels are in heaven, the fallen angels in Tartarus (a kind of prison, to be examined in more detail after this post), the wicked dead in Hades, the righteous dead in heaven (since Christ), and the demons in the atmosphere of the earth and in the bottomless pit. All these are included in the unseen world.

The context should decide as to whether the Greek word "haides" should be transliterated or translated.

Where the context deals with departed human beings and their place of abode in the unseen world, it would seem that the word should be transliterated, and the specific name "Hades" be given that place. These places are Matthew 11:23; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Revelation 6:8, 20:13, 14.

Where the context refers to the unseen world as a whole, the word should be translated, as for instance: Matthew 16:18, "the gates (councils) of the Unseen," namely, the councils of Satan in the unseen world, shall not prevail against the church; or Revelation 1:18, "I have the keys of the Unseen and of death." Our Lord controls the entire unseen world.

[size=13pt]"Tartarosas"[/size] is the word in II Peter 2:4 "cast down to hell." The fallen angels were sent to their temporary prison house, Tartarus, until the Great White Throne judgement.

From Wikipedia:

The term "Tartarus" is found only once in the Bible, at 2 Peter 2:4: "God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them into pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment." It would seem to be a synonym of the "Abyss". In Luke 8:31, the Legion of demons begs Jesus not to send them to the Abyss. "The Beast" of Revelation, will come up out of the Abyss (Revelation 11:7; 17:8 ). Satan will be thrown into the Abyss for 1000 years (Revelation 20:3).

The term "Hades" appears in the religious texts of New Testament times as a translation of the Old Testament Sheol.

In most English Bibles, the word Tartarus is simply translated as Hell, even though early Christian writers usually used the term Gehenna, the Hinnom Valley, to mean hell. In some sense, this dark place matches the term's traditional meaning, a dark pit in which the Supreme God has cast his spirit enemies. However, it is separate from the Lake of Fire which is the place of eternal fiery punishment that most people think of when they think of "Hell". This is evidenced in Revelation 20, where Satan is released from the Abyss (v. 3) and later thrown in the "Lake of Burning Sulfur" (v. 10), where he will be "tormented day and night forever and ever".

-------------------------------------------------
Debated Bible Sources:

The Book of Enoch, chapter XX, verse 2 specifically states that Tartarus is the place in which the angels who cohabited with women in Genesis 6 are to be reserved for judgment.

Quoting Deep Sight (he claimed that I said):

  1. That paradise is in Hell

  2. That the tree of life spoken about in the Bible is in Hell

  3. That paradise will be moved from Hell to Heaven at the end of time

  4. That the garden of Eden was in Hell.

Rather, I said, [see the differentiating posts above]

1. Paradise, before Christ's resurrection, was part of Hades (the place of the Unseen). After Christ's resurrection, those who used to be in Paradise are now in Heaven, so can we then say that Paradise was left behind in "Hades"? Of course not, the inhabitants were now in Heaven, which gives for my statement that paradise "moved" to heaven, I was talking about the "contents" of Paradise.

2. The tree of life spoken about in the Bible is in the Paradise of God. Understanding that this "paradise", being an "Unseen" was also in Hades, then we see that the tree of life is in that "Unseen" place called Hades. I never said it was in Hell, but this is a logical proceeding from point 1 above, which Deep Sight deliberately misconstrued.

3. I said the "paradise project" was moved from HADES to HEAVEN meaning that the ones who were in Hades' Paradise now had the authority to be called God's Sons and to be in His presence, they could now enter into Heaven after Christ.

Christ himself said that nobody had gone into the Father's Presence except HIMSELF who also came from there. All the others were in holding, in Sheol, in Hades, the place of the Unseen, a temporary place, waiting for resurrection while the wicked ones languished in pain (c.f. Lazarus and Dives).

HEAVEN is God's presence, and it is wherever he is. God will not dwell with unclean beings, so not until Christ's sins had cleansed the filth, nobody was able to enter into God's presence : heaven. They were in a temporary place. Called Sheol. Called Hades. NOT HELL!

e.g. an American citizen survived Haiti's earthquake but was stranded, he couldn't go home and had to stay at the American embassy while his transport was being worked out. In this case, the "embassy" would be Paradise, which is a part of the "Unseen World" Hades or Sheol. I wonder how difficult that can be, Deep Sight? I think you're way too intelligent for all this cra'p dribble that you're doing here.

4. What is this? You simply repeated claim #2 and twisted it to be portrayed as a fresh claim?  Isn't it known that the Garden of Eden houses the tree of life, and that the Garden of Eden is also an Unseen in the Sheol / Hades world, in the Paradise section? You seem to like running round in circles. 

Mavenbox said:

The word hades occurs ten times in the New Testament, and always refers to the unseen realm of the dead—the receptacle of disembodied spirits where all people who die await for the Lord’s return and judgment. One part of hades, where Jesus and the thief went, is known as paradise

I believe this has been addressed above, for those that have a mind to actually read through.

Mavenbox said:

If Goshen was in a plagued Egypt, why can't the temporary paradise be in Hades as the Bible says?

I said this because Deep Sight was speaking GEOGRAPHICALLY. He was asking how a thing of JOY and LIFE could be in a place referred to as the UNSEEN REALMS OF THE DEAD. And I remember telling him that spiritual matters have little or nothing to derive from physical locations, rather, they INFLUENCE the physical locations.

So I had to enter into physical geographical sense with Deep Sight since his heart was hard to spiritual exegesis, and I was asking that if Goshen could be in Egypt, and not be affected by PHYSICAL manifestations in Egypt, why can't Paradise be in Hades, that is commonly known as a place for the dead?

Isn't it clear that the influence that God brings to bear on paradise will distinguish it from the rest of Hades, like the influence he brought to bear on Goshen made it a holy place in the midst of death, danger, and turmoil? And did I not refer to the similarity between Jesus and Moses in their roles to retrieve the Blessed Ones from the temporary place into the place of God's promise?

Deep Sight, I have said it, you LOVE running in circles, and maybe you can keep engaging Viaro in that 'cos I don't like my time being wasted (I guess he doesn't either, but he likes to ensure his point is proven. If someone wastes my own time, I just leave them behind running in circles in the sand).

I dont have time to go and start re-quoting myself but anyone who doubts it can simply visit the former thread. I swear I don't have time for all this shenanigan.

The rest of the things that I said, are clearly expressed in all the posts I have made on this thread. Anyone who really wants to understand can read them.

@Everyone: Thank you for reading, long as the posts were, and thanks for not interrupting my flow of posts. I asked for that because I wanted to ensure I was well understood. The questions and other comments can come in now. Muchos Gracias.

Thank you Mavenbox.

Can you address this for me -

Ecclesiates 9:5 -

"For the living know that they shall die; but the dead are conscious of nothing at all - neither have they any further reward - even the memory of them is forgotten."

This clearly suggest that Hades is a place of no consciousness at all.

How do you reconcile your ideas of paradise, comfort, abraham's bosom, the garden of eden, etc etc - all being in a place of no consciousness at all - Hades?

Mazaje mr atheist, atheism the brother of goat (animal). Animal say no god

Maven are u sure you are not confused

Deep Sight:

Thank you Mavenbox.

Can you address this for me -

Ecclesiates 9:5 -

"For the living know that they shall die; but the dead are conscious of nothing at all - neither have they any further reward - even the memory of them is forgotten."

This clearly suggest that Hades is a place of no consciousness at all.

How do you reconcile your ideas of paradise, comfort, abraham's bosom, the garden of eden, etc etc - all being in a place of no consciousness at all - Hades?

You have (deliberately?) taken the post out of its context, because I will quote the entire scripture below:

I am not on my PC so I will quote from http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+9&version=NIV

3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope [b] —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5 For the living know that they will die,
      but the dead know nothing;
      they have no further reward,
      and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate
      and their jealousy have long since vanished;
     never again will they have a part
      in anything that happens under the sun.

The scripture you have misconstrued above never indicated that the agents and entities in Sheol have no consciousness. Rather, it makes it clear that they have no PHYSICAL INFLUENCE in the SEEN realms that they can partake of (see the red emboldened part). Even Dives' request to send Lazarus to change his brothers' lives was turned down flat by Abraham. So what exactly is your point?  

Folks, let me quickly chip in something:

Deep Sight:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 -

"For the living know that they shall die; but the dead are conscious of nothing at all - neither have they any further reward - even the memory of them is forgotten."

This clearly suggest that Hades is a place of no consciousness at all.

I'm not entirely sure that 'Hades is a place of no consciousness at all' - we could rather speak of another type of consciousness that tends to Hades.

The reason for this is simple: Eccl. 9:5 pertains to experiences 'under the sun' (ie., in this world), but the dead hav no protion in anything that is done under the sun (see verse 6).

It would be clear from Revelation 6:9-10 that souls of the 'dead' experience another kind of consciousness, otherwise they would not even be said to have expressed anything whatsoever - yet, these souls that were slain are said to have 'cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?'

Another example is given in 1 Peter 3:18-19 where Christ in His death was said to have gone and preached to the spirits in prison. Think about it: would any form of consciousness be indicated in the place where He descended to, especially that He was said to have preached to those spirits in prison? In any case, it shows us that even while the body was dead, the spirit lives beyond the death of the body - and as such, there is a consciousness different from that which we experience here in this world while still in the body.

Abuzola, after your solemn promises (maybe you were sober that day) to stay away from derailing threads and causing trouble, you are here again.

If you do not make any further meaningful sense on this thread, I will either insult you or ignore you. I think more likely, the latter.

Viaro, judging by your time of post, I am CERTAIN that you did not read my post before you answered, but ONCE AGAIN you have relayed my exact mind on the matter. Thanks again!

Mavenbox, you anticipated me in post #17 - just about the same things I wanted to point out in post #18 on Eccl. 9:5 and 6. Cheers.

Mavenb0x:

You have (deliberately?) taken the post out of its context, because I will quote the entire scripture below:

I am not on my PC so I will quote from http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes+9&version=NIV

The scripture you have misconstrued above never indicated that the agents and entities in Sheol have no consciousness. Rather, it makes it clear that they have no PHYSICAL INFLUENCE in the SEEN realms that they can partake of (see the red emboldened part). Even Dives' request to send Lazarus to change his brothers' lives was turned down flat by Abraham. So what exactly is your point?  

Maven/ Viaro - Why do you both conveniently skip the sentence which says - "THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING."

I suppose -

 1. That you will now tell me that it is symbolic only OR -

 2. You do not wish to accept that this shows off a biblical contradiction when contrasted with the verses Viaro cited.

Right. I am all ears for the twisting and turning that is sure to follow.

@Viaro: LOL it happened again! Great minds think alike, I have heard Besides, now you have KNOWN another reason why. . .

@Deep Sight: since you're being so stubborn, I had to dig up the Hebrew word translated as "know", and it is "yada". See the definition below (image attached because of Hebrew Characters), I can't copy and paste from my Strong's concordance software cos Im not on my PC.

So, if the KNOW means to SEE, isn't it clear that those in the UNSEEN realms cannot KNOW?

Is that too hard for you to grasp, sir?

@Mavenb0x, what can I say? lol.


__________________________

@DeepSight,

Deep Sight:

Maven/ Viaro - Why do you both conveniently skip the sentence which says - "THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING."

I skipped nothing. In my reply I quoted that same verse (Ecclesiastes 9:5) and connected it with the very next verse 6 that shows you what is expressly meant: what do you understand as regards the point the preacher was setting forth all through with the clause 'under the sun' ?

besides, verse 6 is not disconnected from verse 5, because the flow is evident by the pronouns - '⁶Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun'.

Point as lucid as can be - no tiwsting. You, on the other hand, have to ignore these points (as you ever do) and just sit tight on disconnected phrases. This was why I gave you several other examples OUTSIDE of Ecclesiastes. What have you said about them?

I suppose -

1. That you will now tell me that it is symbolic only OR -

2. You do not wish to accept that this shows off a biblical contradiction when contrasted with the verses Viaro cited.

You've played these games far too long they have become your trademark. If a reply is amde which addresses your queries and then you have nothing of substance to return, you turn round to allege all sorts. DeepSight, please drop it - your style of discussing is becoming too much of a bore to waste time on.

This is just fantastic. I'm having a party.

Maven asserts now that those in Hades (the unseen realms) cannot "see" or "perceive" anything.

And this same Maven asserted in another thread that the Parable of Lazarus & the rich man in Hades was a real event and not a parable only - thus that the rich man in Hades could "see" and "perceive" Lazarus in Abraham's bosom - FAR OFF!

Wow! Such delightful contradictions!

Tell now Maven, how do you escape this one? They cannot "see" or "perceive" according to your defintion attached above.

But the Rich man in Hades can see and perceive! And you say it was a real event!

Marvelous Maven! This Christian thing no go kill your logic o!

Maven, am a peacemaker, the treaty is on, but is it bad to express ur view ?

DeepSight, please drop it - your style of discussing is becoming too much of a bore to waste time on.

So why the heck do you waste so much time on me and my inanities?

Oh - It must be evangelism laced with four letter words!

@Viaro: No mind this Shallow Sighted man o! He will not address the topic of the thread, but will raise other nonsense and when they are proven spurious he will come up with another irrelevant concept (or in recent times, redefine his stand and keep arguing blindly) in the face of evidence.

@Deep Sight: My brother likes to say that when 5 people call you a donkey, you'd better get your saddle on. If we (Christians) and non-Christians like Krayola, and atheists like Mazaje say that your logic is circuitous, time-wasting and inane, does that not make you stop and consider the truth in it? I was accused of making long posts, but I have never been accused of making senseless posts (at least, not yet, except when I am trying to make a joke)

Do you think the SEE means a physical sight? If one is asked to "see what someone else is up to", does it necessarily involve a physical sight?

Is SIGHT not used to mean a primary sense of interaction with the subject?

I think you're more intelligent than this. I would have expected this kind of conversation with an old (rather senile) acquaintance on NL (surname non-disclosed, but viaro and nuclearboy should know who I mean  ), and not you.

Deep Sight:

This is just fantastic. I'm having a party.

Maven asserts now that those in Hades (the unseen realms) cannot "see" or "perceive" anything.

And this same Maven asserted in another thread that the Parable of Lazarus & the rich man in Hades was a real event and not a parable only - thus that the rich man in Hades could "see" and "perceive" Lazarus in Abraham's bosom - FAR OFF!

Wow! Such delightful contradictions!

Tell now Maven, how do you escape this one? They cannot "see" or "perceive" according to your defintion attached above.

But the Rich man in Hades can see and perceive! And you say it was a real event!

Marvelous Maven! This Christian thing no go kill your logic o!

Are you not missing (by compulsion) the very fact of the sphere where the 'seeing' applies? DeepSight, what do you understand by "under the sun" that the preacher uses frequently and in those verses under review??

It does not mean at all that no consciousness could be spoken of in hades - and I have noted that we are looking at another type of consciousness, a point which was made with several examples.

Besides, apart from the fact that Maven posted you a snapshot of the Hebrew word 'yada', I could post it again right from my Strong's Concordance in case you missed it:

[list]H3045
ידע
yâda‛
yaw-dah'

A primitive root; to know (properly to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): - acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, for a certainty, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to, let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.[/list]

What is wrong with the fact that Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 makes the point that the dead are not conscious of experience of things done 'under the sun'? DeepSight, please tell me what is wrong with that.

Deep Sight:

So why the heck do you waste so much time on me and my inanities?

Oh - It must be evangelism laced with four letter words!

Nope, rather you're tripping all over yourself while waving the victim's card on your own misadventures.

@Deep Sight (I may not use that name any longer, it appears to be proving to be a misnomer): As for Lazarus and Dives, viaro already explained that there are other "levels" or "types" of consciousness in Sheol, the place of the Unseen. They may not have physical sight, but they can SEE in other means. Or have you not heard of blind men that can tell where they are, by other senses? That's even beside the point, but it's a close physical analogy.

There is a spiritual body, and there is a physical body. It is just plain silly to state that a man born blind who dies blind will not have any form of sight in the afterlife. Does that make sense to any rational mind of any age?