I've just recently watched an interesting documentary on the creation of the King James' Version of the bible. It is truly a great work.

A part of the program I found fascinating was when it was discussing the political issues that had to be considered in the translating of the bible. Not just KJV but other bibles before it. Remember that the protestants were trying to discredit the Roman Catholic Church and so were opposed to any arguments that the Roman Catholics used to support their position.

This came into play in the translation of the word Church in the bible. In Tyndale's bible which was the first translation of the bible into English we find this translation of Matthew 16: 18

You are Peter (Petros) and on this Rock (petras) I will build my Congregation.

Why the use of the word congregation instead of the word 'church' as was common at the time and still is? Tyndale was a prostestant and the Catholics were using this passage as evidence of Jesus's instituting the Papacy. The Catholics were saying that Jesus built his church on Peter (the first Pope). Therefore the Catholic church was the church established by Jesus.

Of course the protestants were having none of this and so when Tyndale translated his bible he used the word congregation instead of church, which makes the passage read rather differently. It puts the emphasis on the people congregated rather than the organisation under whose banner they are congregated.

But who was right? What was the original greek word that was used there? and what is the better rendering of the word, congregation or church. Well the greek word is ἐκκλησίαν, or Ekklesian. It is from this word that we get Ecclesiastical. What does this word really mean in Greek?

1577 ekklēsía(from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 2564 /kaléō, "to call" – properly, people called out from the world and to God, the outcome being the Church (the mystical body of Christ) – i.e. the universal (total) body of believers whom God calls out from the world and into His eternal kingdom.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1577.htm

It turns out that the word simply means what has been called out of a larger body. That means that if I enter a room full of 50 people and call 5 of them out of the room to have a word with them then I have formed an ekklesia out of the people in the room. I have simply called out a few from the many.

Does that gathering that I have thus called have to be organised into a clerical organisation? Out of all his followers Jesus called out 12. Out of the twelve he often called out 3 Peter James and John. Are they to be considered an ekklesia within an ekklesia?

This brings us back to the Question of who was right in translating the bible, the catholics or Tyndale. The word church today definitely carries the connotation of an organisational structure, an institution. While the word Congregation suggests simply a group of people who have come together for a certain purpose.

It is the connotations behind the word church today that makes it hard to accept that as an accurate translation of what Jesus was trying to say. On the other hand it is obvious that Tyndale's use of the word congregation was an unsubtle attack at the Catholic church and that was his reason for picking that word.

The word church itself came into the english from Greek.

[The English word "church" comes from the Greek word kyriakos, "belonging to the Lord" (kyrios).

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/1577.htm

It simply means belonging to the Lord. Yet that meaning has changed today. When we say church we are usually thinking of an organisational structure like the RCC or CEC or Redeemed etc. This shifts in meaning make it extremely difficult to understand a lot of what is being said in the bible.

Has anyone got any more thoughts on this?

Nice discourse, very insightful.

Excellent write up Pastor AIO. Will be watching this space

And of course the KJV used the word church to translate ekklesian. Why? Well King James would brook no challenge to established authority. Remember he was the king and the head of the Church of England. That put him in the same position as the pope. Even though he had puritans involved in the translation he would never allow them to put anything into his bible that would challenge his own authority. He famously said 'No bishops, no king'. I guess he could percieve that any challenge of the church hierarchy was just the first steps to any eventual challenge of his own authority. England managed to stave off any challenges to Royal authority for one more generation. It was his son Charles I that was deposed and had his head chopped off. I suspect that James could smell it in the air even in his time and had to thwart any such challenges.

King James I, reacting against the perceived contumacy of his Presbyterian Scottish subjects, adopted "No Bishop, no King" as a slogan; he tied the hierarchical authority of the bishop to the absolute authority he sought as king, and viewed attacks on the authority of the bishops as attacks on his own authority. Matters came to a head when King Charles I appointed William Laud as the Archbishop of Canterbury; Laud aggressively attacked the Presbyterian movement and sought to impose the full Anglican liturgy. The controversy eventually led to Laud's impeachment for treason by a bill of attainder in 1645, and subsequent execution. Charles also attempted to impose episcopacy on Scotland; the Scots' violent rejection of bishops and liturgical worship sparked the Bishops' Wars in 1639–1640.

During the height of Puritan power in the Commonwealth and the Protectorate, episcopacy was abolished in the Church of England in 1649. The Church of England remained Presbyterian until the Restoration of the monarchy with Charles II in 1660.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop

Interestingly, as I was looking for the 'no bishops, no king' quote I came across some info on how the early church was organised. Far from being anything like Pastor Joe described that everybody has to be subjected to a pastor, it turns out that the churches were ruled by a collegiate system of Elders.

History

The earliest organization of the Church in Jerusalem was similar to that of Jewish synagogues, which were governed by a council of elders (Greek: πρεσβύτεροι presbyteroi). In Acts 11:30 and 15:22, we see this collegiate system of government in Jerusalem, and, in Acts 14:23, the Apostle Paul ordains elders in the churches he founded.

Presbyters were apparently identical to overseers (ἐπίσκοποι episkopoi, i.e., bishops), as in Acts 20:17, Titus 1:5,7 and 1 Peter 5:1.[2][3] The earliest writings of the Apostolic Fathers, the Didache and the First Epistle of Clement for example, show the church recognized two local church offices—elders (interchangeable term with overseer) and deacon.
A 6th-century image Saint Augustine, bishop of Hippo Regius.

The beginnings of a single ruling bishop can perhaps be traced to the offices occupied by Timothy and Titus in the New Testament. We are told that Paul had left Timothy in Ephesus and Titus in Crete to oversee the local church (1 Tim. 1:3 and Titus 1:5). Paul commands them to ordain presbyters/bishops and to exercise general oversight, telling Titus to "rebuke with all authority" (Titus 2:15).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop

To be fair Paul also seemed to be giving Timothy and Titus singular authority in some passages. But most churches were ruled by a collegiate system.

Pastor AIO:

Interestingly, as I was looking for the 'no bishops, no king' quote I came across some info on how the early church was organised.  Far from being anything like Pastor Joe described that everybody has to be subjected to a pastor, it turns out that the churches were ruled by a collegiate system of Elders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop

To be fair Paul also seemed to be giving Timothy and Titus singular authority in some passages.   But most churches were ruled by a collegiate system. 

Absolutely right! The first catholic 'church' was established by Constantine as a system of control over the people. So a hierarchy all the way up to God was required to implement this plan. As u quite rightly stated a system of elders was the norm within the original Christian circles.
Modern day churches continue to perpetuate this system making genuine Christians wonder whether churches now are saving people or controlling them.

Truth has this funny way of always showing up no matter how long hidden.

Lets await the vultures to come scream testimonies of how many people they herded into heaven today in an attempt to scatter this thread hoping to hide truth

This is one thread I will keep my eyes on for sure, so far so good before the "dittoheads" turn up. Most of the "doctrines" they spew out today has no Scriptural basis to stand on.

The LORD GOD / The Lord Jesus Christ, GOD - The ROCK

"He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he." Deuteronomy 32:4 

Matthew 16:18
"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

(The Rock upon which the eternal church/congregation of the saints of GOD is built is The Lord Jesus Christ against Whom/which the gates of hell will never prevail because everyone in that church/congregation who are in Christ Jesus The Lord, by the mercy of GOD, has been justified & has received GOD's pardon through the atoning sacrifice of The Lord Jesus Christ on the cross / from the foundation of the world, bearing our sins and iniquities on Himself). "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone." (Ephesians 2:20, 1 Peter 2:6). Let GOD be magnified!

Thus, in Matthew 16:18, The Lord Jesus Christ is referring to Himself/GOD, The Rock, The only Savior (Acts 4:12 & I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Isaiah 43:11, and Isaiah 45:21). GOD is One GOD.
Much like this part of Holy Scripture - 1 Timothy 3:15
"But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." The "Pillar and Ground of Truth" is GOD / The Lord Jesus Christ, "the Way, the Truth & the Life" - John 14:6 and not the local/earthly churches and congregations. (evidenced as early as the church in Corinth and the churches in Asia minor ref: to in Revelations 2 & 3).

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock." Luke 6:46-48 (also, Matthew 7:24-25)
"Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel." Exodus 17:6, (Nehemiah 9:15, Psalm 78:15-16, Psalm 105:41, Isaiah 48:21) - (symbolically portrayed, yet substantively, the Rock from which living water came / comes is The Lord Jesus Christ, our GOD upon whom we depend on and believe/trust in for salvation / eternal life, from Whom we receive living water unto eternal life)
"Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." John 4:13-15 

GOD, The Lord Jesus Christ, from whom living waters flow:
"For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water." Jeremiah 17:13
"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water." John 4:10 

"He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." John 7:38
"For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." Revelation 7:17]
"There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed." 1 Samuel 2:2-3 
"And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, and out of the hand of Saul: And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence." 2 Samuel 22: 1-3
"Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation.  He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved… My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him. He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved. In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God." Psalm 62: 1-2 & 5-7
"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him. For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?" 2 Samuel 22:31-32 
"To shew that the LORD is upright: he is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in him." Psalm 92:15
"The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower." Psalm 18:2

"The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted." Psalm 18:46 (Psalm 28:1, Psalm 31:2-3, Psalm 42:9, Psalm 71:3, 78:35, Psalm 94:22, Psalm 95:1, Isaiah 17:10 )


==========================
Isaiah 45:22-24 
"Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed."


Philippians 2:9-11
"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."


Psalm 89:20-37 (symbolically David, substantively The Lord Jesus Christ)
"[b]I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.[/b]"

^^^

When Jesus says you are Peter (meaning rock) and on this rock I will build my Ekklesian, I would naturally assume that he was referring to Peter as the rock and not himself. Unless we now want to conflate Peter with Jesus. Of course Jesus is referred to as a rock in other passages but that does not rule out the fact that he explicitly stated that he would build the people he called on the Rock which is Peter.

I think the references to Peter as rock and Jesus as rock are two very separate issues and they should be left separate.

I saw the later parts of the programme and it is still still on BBC Iplayer* for UK based folk still interested in seeing it. I also found many things in it fascinating/interesting e.g. the "objection" of one of the scholars to the rendering "Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever" prefering "Jesus Christ, yesterday and today, the same forever" arguing that the latter order would make the sentence more majestic.

Apart from the Tyndale/Roman Catholic politics of translating ekklesia as "church" or "congregation", a broader point is about the shades and nuances of words; for example, and being politically and otherwise neutral, a perusal of a KJV concordance will show that in some circumstances it would not be appropriate to translate 'ekklesia' as "church" and thus, you have it translated as e.g. "assembly" etc. This point seems lost on many people today or, more sinister, is being abused by false teachers and other pompous people without proper training in the original languages who make blind but "authoritative" assertions that "the meaning of the Greek/original word" is x (often just what they want it to mean).


*ETA (Details: "When God Spoke English", BBC Four 21/02/11)

Enigma:

I saw the later parts of the programme and it is still still on BBC Iplayer* for UK based folk still interested in seeing it. I also found many things in it fascinating/interesting e.g. the "objection" of one of the scholars to the rendering "Jesus Christ the same yesterday and today and forever" prefering "Jesus Christ, yesterday and today, the same forever" arguing that the latter order would make the sentence more majestic.

Apart from the Tyndale/Roman Catholic politics of translating ekklesia as "church" or "congregation", a broader point is about the shades and nuances of words; for example, and being politically and otherwise neutral, a perusal of a KJV concordance will show that in some circumstances it would not be appropriate to translate 'ekklesia' as "church" and thus, you have it translated as e.g. "assembly" etc. This point seems lost on many people today or, more sinister, is being abused by false teachers and other pompous people without proper training in the original languages who make blind but "authoritative" assertions that "the meaning of the Greek/original word" is x (often just what they want it to mean).


*ETA (Details: "When God Spoke English", BBC Four 21/02/11)

Yeah, the KJV is as much a work of poetry as it is a translation. I've heard it argued that Shakespeare must have been involved in the translation too because the language is just too beautiful and he was the best writer around at the time. I don't know how strong that argument is, but KJV is certainly my favourite translation of the bible because when I read it a certain magical something is convey as well as the words on the page.

As regards teachers and pompous people without proper training making authoritative statements, I find it is all too common. I remember going to chris okotie's church many years ago and he started to talk about the original greek of a certain passage and I, though only a kid at the time, was struck with such a sense of incredulity.

I do agree though that anyone who is going to set themselves up as an authority on the New Testament needs to have studied Koine Greek, and also needs to have studied the NT in the original Koine Greek. So much is lost in translation and this fact is being used everyday to bamboozle the naive and the gullible.

Of course they will argue that they don't need to cos the holy spirit will help them to understand what they need to understand. What they don't consider is that no two people claiming Holy Spirit inspiration are in 100 per cent agreement. Unless there is a different holy spirit for each reader.

I even think that it is good for every bible reader to be at least a little familiar with koine greek even if they don't become experts. Just little things like the grammar, construction of sentences, and a few vocabularies here and there just so that the general feeling of the language can be appreciated. Besides, it is also fun to learn. So many english words come from greek and so it will help in understanding english better.

Another ill translated word that I like is ἀποκόψονται ( apokopsontai). This means to castrate or to chop a dick off. Paul wishes this on his enemies but the translation has been considerably toned down.

I would they were even cut off [/b]which trouble you

Galatians 5:12

What Paul is actually saying here is 'I want to cut off the dicks of the people that are troubling you.'

http://biblos.com/galatians/5-12.htm

to cut off
Original Word: ἀποκόπτω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apokoptó
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-op'-to)
Short Definition: I smite, cut off, emasculate
Definition: I smite, cut off, cut loose; mid:[b] I emasculate, castrate, mutilate myself.

http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/609.htm

Yep, I agree with the last two posts. In relation to the very last, there are acually many such euphemisms in English translations of the Bible which often do not fully encapsulate the earthiness of the speech of the original speaker.

Try exercise above on the passage below ---- or read the passage in modern translations.

Ezekiel 23

19Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt. 20For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. 21Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.

Interesting!

The choice of language in the Bible and its parallels in what we see on the streets has always interested me.

God/Christ and all His prophets/servants are shown to use "crude" words, and not care whose ox is gored. "Earthiness" indeed!

In comparison, the fakes and Satan carry on with oily neutral diplomatic diction geared towards not offending any "customer". "Ephemeral" and vacuous.

That ezekiel passage looks very interesting. I can already sense what the original would actually be saying. I'll look it up later.

We also need to understand that Koine Greek was not the real proper greek but it was the most common spoken amongst the illiterates and common people of the Roman empire. I suppose sort of like the difference between pidgen english and proper English. So the New testament was actually written in a kind of pidgen and so it shouldn't be surprising if it reflects the streetwiseness of the places where the language was spoken.

Does a bbc documentary now take the place of the bible, well wait until bbc comes and say there is no God? Nevertheless, why don't you provide the link for the video so we could view it as well at least most recently such videos are made available on YouTube.

newmi:

Does a bbc documentary now take the place of the bible, well wait until bbc comes and say there is no God? Nevertheless, why don't you provide the link for the video so we could view it as well at least most recently such videos are made available on YouTube.

Can you please show me the post where it was suggested that the documentary take the place of the bible? I find it astounding that you would say that. Or are you being sarcastic? We are having an interesting discussion here about the creation of the KJV. I really don't see what there is to be sarcastic about unless something else is biting you from your off line life and you are now coming to NL to vent instead of facing the problem where it is doing you.

I very much doubt that you will get the link unless you live in England cos the BBC does not release it's documentaries outside England. Anyway give it a try here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00yvs8n/When_God_Spoke_English_The_Making_of_the_King_James_Bible/

For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God? - Psalm 18:31

Proverbs 30:5-7
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Psalm 12:6
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

^^^^ The meds kicking in or what was this in response to?

HISservant:

For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God? - Psalm 18:31

Proverbs 30:5-7
Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Psalm 12:6
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

ogajim:

^^^^ The meds kicking in or what was this in response to?

I think he is stuck on the whole ROCK thing. He is trying to prove that God is the only one that can be called a rock. So Olumo Rock must be a phantom cos there is no other rock. And Jesus was a liar for calling Peter a Rock.

@Pastor AIO
Thank you pastor sorry l sounded sarcastic it wasn't delibrate just wanted to drive home a point. Thank yoyre for the attempt to provide a link.

Pastor AIO:

Interestingly, as I was looking for the 'no bishops, no king' quote I came across some info on how the early church was organised. Far from being anything like Pastor Joe described that everybody has to be subjected to a pastor, it turns out that the churches were ruled by a collegiate system of Elders.

Brilliant thread!

Ah. . .

As it happens there is a relationship/continuum between this thread and the latter posts of this other https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=607878.msg7792207#msg7792207

In particular, it would be interesting to continue the discussion of the relationship between the "Church" and the Bible/Scriptures.

One of the points made in the latter posts of that thread is that behind the Bible itself is the Church --- and the Church itself has behind it Jesus Christ.

Obviously the Church (i.e.Jesus' followers at least from Pentecost) predates some of the books of the Bible and moreover the Church is the instrument for producing some of them i.e. the New Testament. On the other hand, prior to the Church Jesus Himself used pre-existing scriptures ---- although He showed their true intent (and shortcomings?) in many respects. Thus, it is understandable that the Church saw fit to select scriptures that pre-date it, i.e. the Old Testament, especially considering links to the New Testament through prophecies etc.

Now there are many questions that one can raise from this situation.

First, but which I have assumed, was it truly the "Church" that selected what became the Bible? I personally have assumed/accepted that it is but I would be interested to hear other people's thoughts.

If it is indeed the Church that selected what became the Bible, are we not thus assured that since Jesus is behind the Church, then the Bible that we have is what we are meant to have? If it is what we are meant to have, are we then assured that the Church must have been guided by the Holy Spirit in its selection of the books? And how does this speak in turn to the authority of the Bible?

Now, the Bible as we have it raises many challenging questions still! We do not have the autographs/originals; there are things which are not clear and possibly which we cannot fully ascertain on this earth.

Is that not possibly even part of the design of God - the way God wants things to be? Like, "you have enough in what you have and enough that is quite clear, such that you know the plan of salvation. That is all you need, others are extra and help material; and beyond that are things which must remain cryptic for you (through a glass darkly and all that) until the appointed time."

Beginning to ramble now, so I should stop.

On a roll tonight with the songs, so here goes one on this thread topic:

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/c/h/chofound.htm

The Church’s one foundation
Is Jesus Christ her Lord,
She is His new creation
By water and the Word.
From heaven He came and sought her
To be His holy bride;
With His own blood He bought her
And for her life He died.

She is from every nation,
Yet one o’er all the earth;
Her charter of salvation,
One Lord, one faith, one birth;
One holy Name she blesses,
Partakes one holy food,
And to one hope she presses,
With every grace endued.

The Church shall never perish!
Her dear Lord to defend,
To guide, sustain, and cherish,
Is with her to the end:
Though there be those who hate her,
And false sons in her pale,
Against both foe or traitor
She ever shall prevail.

Though with a scornful wonder
Men see her sore oppressed,
By schisms rent asunder,
By heresies distressed:
Yet saints their watch are keeping,
Their cry goes up, “How long?”
And soon the night of weeping
Shall be the morn of song!

’Mid toil and tribulation,
And tumult of her war,
She waits the consummation
Of peace forevermore;
Till, with the vision glorious,
Her longing eyes are blest,
And the great Church victorious
Shall be the Church at rest.

Yet she on earth hath union
With God the Three in One,
And mystic sweet communion
With those whose rest is won,
With all her sons and daughters
Who, by the Master’s hand
Led through the deathly waters,
Repose in Eden land.

O happy ones and holy!
Lord, give us grace that we
Like them, the meek and lowly,
On high may dwell with Thee:
There, past the border mountains,
Where in sweet vales the Bride
With Thee by living fountains
Forever shall abide!

Sorry i no hear too many english o, make me confirm. Are you saying that the kjv is unreliable, or that church is different from congregation in this context, or that a congregation should not be shepherded by one person? Can person help me out?

Pastor AIO:

I think he is stuck on the whole ROCK thing. He is trying to prove that God is the only one that can be called a rock. So Olumo Rock must be a phantom cos there is no other rock. And Jesus was a liar for calling Peter a Rock.

Peter is a stone, Jesus is the Rock. i tot this was common knowledge?

@image123

whats the difference between a stone and a rock

^i can stone you with a stone, i can't rock you with a rock. What did you study for ya school?

Lol @ last four post.

@OP. Interesting right up.

I no know say Image get sense of humour like that. You really got a big hearty laugh out of me that time.