The so-called living (Protestants) churches should forget about Europe, America and some African Countries where there are safe haven for Christianity - Catholic Church has already spearheaded the way in all these places. They are only interested in the places they will make easy money, afraid of persecution and death. I think they should try Rwanda, Burundi, Somalia, Palestine, Afghanistan. They should go there and tell the Talibans what they are doing is not in the bible. Even in most parts of Lebanon – let them come and preach Christ in all these places and make a noise with their loudspeakers, if they are lucky enough, a kind and brotherly warning of 24 lashes will be given to them as penalty for public disturbance. But if they are not lucky enough – their heads will be blown into pieces. We have Catholic Church(s) in all these places mentioned and they facing the challenges as true Christians. The Protestants can only come in and make a hell of noise after Catholic has watered the ground. It is not enough for redeem, and co to open churches in almost every street and make noise about it. Christ knows His true Church and those faking themselves – they are only interested in extorting money from their easy-deceived followers – claiming to possess the truth. No single Protestant church in Palestine, Afghanistan etc. Let them go and be fishers of men there and stop using Catholic Church as their ocean to catch fish. Catholic Priests, Missionaries etc are killed often time and we keep on sending more missionaries. Christianity means carry your cross and follow Christ. No Cross, No Christianity. The early Apostles carried their crosses, going to all those risky places. But, the Protestant Churches are only in Nigeria, South Africa, Ghana, Australia, America, Europe etc claiming to be doing the work of God.

Please, my fellow Catholics, never you listen to them, and DON’T REPLY again any post(s) that insult Catholic Church. But anyone who is interested to know our faith and channel it in a polite way should be given attention.

Personally, I will NO LONGER respond to any post that insults Catholic Church except those that politely want to know our doctrine(s). I can’t imagine myself responding to all these insults again.

I will post the above to all threads that deal with Catholic Church – in this way, my fellow Catholics will learn how to IGNORE those Satan has caged.

All these Protestants should read what real Christians (Catholics) face everyday. Not just making noise, enjoying Christianity after so many Catholics have died trying to establish Christianity in NO-Go-Areas. We want them to join Catholics there. Living Churches - na mouth.

Afghan converts to Christianity lead dangerous lives and must keep their faith secret to avoid persecution by police, Islamists or even their own neighbors. Members of this secret society have to constantly keep looking over their shoulders.

An Islamist demonstration in Afghanistan: Christian have no voice here

Kabar converted to Christianity 20 years ago, when such a thing was not as taboo as it is today. "There were a lot of Catholic Churches, both in Kabul and in the country," he says. "Back then the two religions coexisted here almost peacefully." But that all changed when the Taliban came to power in the mid-1990s. Taliban Supreme Leader Mullah Omar ordered his men to raze churches to the ground, to lynch Afghan Christians and to kill or drive out foreigners who followed Jesus Christ.
Many of Kabar's friends lost their lives during this period. "They tortured prisoners until they got them to tell them the names of other Christians. Most Missionaries who are mainly Catholics are killed almost every month, but this has not discouraged their efforts in any way. Then the Taliban would kill them and go in search of new victims." Why he himself survived, he doesn't know. He was taken prisoner twice and interrogated for hours at a time, but his persecutors could find no proof. "I knew the suras and the prayers from the Koran by heart. So I pretended to be a good Muslim," he said, with something like pride in his voice.
Anything that could out him as a Christian has been put out of sight, out of fear. He is afraid that what happened to Abdul Rahman, another convert to Christianity, might happen to him.

Persecution under the Taliban
Kabar converted to Christianity 20 years ago, when such a thing was not as taboo as it is today. "There were a lot of churches, both in Kabul and in the country," he says. "Back then the two religions coexisted here almost peacefully." But that all changed when the Taliban came to power in the mid-1990s. Taliban Supreme Leader Mullah Omar ordered his men to raze churches to the ground, to lynch Afghan Christians and to kill or drive out foreigners who followed Jesus Christ.
Many of Kabar's friends lost their lives during this period. "They tortured prisoners until they got them to tell them the names of other Christians. Then the Taliban would kill them and go in search of new victims." Why he himself survived, he doesn't know. He was taken prisoner twice and interrogated for hours at a time, but his persecutors could find no proof. "I knew the suras and the prayers from the Koran by heart. So I pretended to be a good Muslim," he said, with something like pride in his voice.

It's difficult arranging meetings with people like Kabar. Time and again he postponed the appointment, then he asked that the location be changed. Finally the meeting takes place in his office. Brochures are lying about and a computer hums in the background, but nothing would indicate the subject of the conversation. There are no crucifixes on the wall, no Bibles on the shelves.
The case of Rahman serves as proof to Afghan Christians that they live in extreme danger, simply because of their beliefs. Despite the fact that international pressure prevented Rahman from being sentenced and perhaps executed by Afghanistan's justice system, Rahman's story illustrates the extreme stress that those who turn away from Islam experience every day. "We must recognize that freedom of religion, as promised by the Afghan constitution, does not exist," says Kabar, sadly. "But maybe it's good that the international community is now aware of that."
Persecution under the Taliban
Kabar converted to Christianity 20 years ago, when such a thing was not as taboo as it is today. "There were a lot of churches, both in Kabul and in the country," he says. "Back then the two religions coexisted here almost peacefully." But that all changed when the Taliban came to power in the mid-1990s. Taliban Supreme Leader Mullah Omar ordered his men to raze churches to the ground, to lynch Afghan Christians and to kill or drive out foreigners who followed Jesus Christ.
Many of Kabar's friends lost their lives during this period. "They tortured prisoners until they got them to tell them the names of other Christians. Then the Taliban would kill them and go in search of new victims." Why he himself survived, he doesn't know. He was taken prisoner twice and interrogated for hours at a time, but his persecutors could find no proof. "I knew the suras and the prayers from the Koran by heart. So I pretended to be a good Muslim," he said, with something like pride in his voice.
But the disappearance of the Taliban has not made much of a difference for people like Kabar. Converts continue to be hunted down, thrown into prison or even killed by their neighbors. The West was largely unaware of the situation, and it was only by coincidence that Rahman's case captured international attention. Afghanistan's 2004 constitution, which guarantees freedom of religion, is of little use to Christians. "Many in power in the judicial branch are imams or clerics who have little interest in the constitution," says Kabar.
Hide and seek
Kabar is forced to renounce his core identity every day. There is an Islamic name on his business card, although privately he carries the name of one of the apostles. Only his family and his closest friends know his secret. Sometimes, he says, he has to act as if he is praying to Allah. "If business associates come to my house and suddenly want to pray, I have to go along," he says, adding that he only hopes his God understands.
No one knows how many Afghan converts there really are. Because there are no churches, there are also no records. Everything is carried out in secret; only Christians know other Christians. Kabar says he knows a couple of hundred in Kabul and in many other Afghan cities, estimating that there are probably in total between 1,000 and 2,000 people of the Christian faith in Afghanistan, against a Muslim majority of nearly 20 million. Christian Web sites put that number at 10,000, a figure which seems exaggerated.
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Even Christian foreigners in Afghanistan feel the oppression brought down by the larger Islamic society. While Christians in Kabul, who mostly come from the Philippines, can hold masses in Kabul, they have to do so in secret. The head of a small foreign congregation, an ophthalmologist from the United States, declined to talk about the issue last week. Christian groups are often suspected of being missionaries; therefore it's better to keep a low profile. His own church is completely unrecognizable as such, apart from a (relief of a) fish on the outer wall.
The persecution and the constant danger have turned the community of Afghan converts into a closely knit underground organization. Ironically, the oppression has strengthened the faith of many.
Nothing can happen in the open, and Kabar and his fellow believers hold their worship services on different days of the week. "It would be too dangerous to do it on Sunday, because it would be easy for them to observe us." Converts are contacted just before a service is to take place, often by innocent-sounding mobile phone text messages. "We're having tea at 11 o'clock," is one that Kabar reads.
The locations of services change constantly as well, and they are always held in private homes, where everything has to be prepared well in advance. The household staff must be away; neighbors mustn't notice anything; and everyone has to have the 100 percent trust of everyone else. It is too dangerous to even have a Bible at most services, says Kabar, who knows his prayers by heart. Police have come and searched his house three times already, but failed to find anything incriminating. "They know I'm a Christian," he says. "But I won't give them any reason to put me on trial."
Even though Afghanistan has dismissed its case against Abdul Rahman, this is a cold comfort for Kabar. He and his friends fear that anger among Islamists over Rahman's release could spur them to take matters into their hands and act even more brutally toward converts. "Abdul Rahman's release is a good thing," he says. "But the international community needs to keep its eyes open."
According to Kabar, the worst thing would be if the resolution of the case leaves the impression that everything is now OK for converts living in Afghanistan. If that happens, he says, the case would have done more harm than good. "We are going to stand by our faith," he adds on parting. "Any kind of support would help us a lot."

i guess your post implies that th catholic church existed before the persecution started when the new Taliban came into power!

May God have mercy on you all.
On the last day God will be the judge and not man.

@oby, yes I agree with you. Some are better left for God to judge. I said this earlier, but well,

The topic is whether Catholic Worship is a modern form of Idolatry. I say it is Demon Cracy witch craft and worship of a Demon. The acts of service tho' has piousness in it, but it is what the bible calls having a "form of righteousness" and denying the power thereof.

There are other religion that worship demons this can even be found in some "Christians Churches" The leader of the Catholic Church is a demon Possessed man spreading evil teaching come from hell, the man is no where near holy.

Surely not idolatery. Catholics have what they refer to as symbolism where symbols stand as a reminder of special heavenly beings like the Pictures and Statues regarded as idol figures. Catholics dont worship Mary or Saint Peter orall the others they ONLY Honour Mary and Ask saints to intercede for them. Catholics are the only true christians. They affirm Christ In every deed of worship.


Cheers.

can you please point out where in the bible we are instructed to ask Mary and the 'saints' to intercede for us?

'For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus.' 1 Timothy 2:5

no mention of any other people, either on earth or elsewhere.

the Lord's prayer which is our model, does it involve calling the names of people whether dead or alive?

cheers

Hello all,

The discussions on this thread have been interesting enough. I'd just like my Catholic friends to know something: it is time to awake to righteousnness. In other words, do what IS right according to what God has revealed in His WORD.

Remember some of us were discussing this issue about bowing down to the statues of Mary and others? This is the post of the thread: (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-74061.288.html#msg1444554) . . . and let me remind you about the relevant lines there:

---

ebos:

When we bow down in the church, it is simply a sign of respect to Mary.

Ok, I hear. I was going to post some images to show that Catholics actually BOW down to statues of Mary, since sonia11 made this statement:

sonia11:

nobody bows down to the saints and we honour mary not worshipping.

---

And here are examples of what God said - straight from the mouth of the living God -

[list]
Leviticus 26:1

Ye shall make you  no   idols nor graven image,

neither rear you up a standing image,

neither shall ye set up  any  image of stone in your land,

-- to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.[/list]


Abeg una well-well, make una hear -- "Thus saith the LORD!" Look again at the verse above from the Bible - and then look at the pictures below. Could you Catholics please tell us whether both the verse above and the pictures below are exactly the same?  Here are the pictures:

Image 1.




Image 2.




Image 3.




Image 4.




Image 5.




Dear Catholic friends, the WORD of God is clear. You cannot disobey God's WORD and claim to be "the only true Christians". Could you please kindly explain to us non-Catholics what has happened to that verse in your own Bibles?

May God help you - and us all!

With love, pilgrim.1  

A few other verses from the B.I.B.L.E  to show what exactly God feels about bowing down to images reared up in the Catholic Church:


[list]
#1. Exodus 34:17  --  "Thou shalt make thee no molten gods."
[/list]



[list]
#2. Leviticus 19:4  --  "Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God."[/list]



[list]
#3. Deuteronomy 4:16-18  --  "Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image,

the similitude of any figure,

the likeness of male or female,

The likeness of any beast that is on the earth,

the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground,

the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth"[/list]



[list]
#4. Deuteronomy 4:23-25  --  "Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath  forbidden  thee. For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger"[/list]



[list]
#5. Deuteronomy 5:7-10  --  "Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make thee any graven image,

or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,

or that is in the earth beneath,

or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them:

for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments."[/list]


. . . please if you want any more verses from the WORD of God, prayerfully contact the One who spoke those very words for our instruction! He is merciful and will deliver anyone who has fallen into the trap of excusing disobedience against His WORD.

May God help us again O! Amen.

Love plenty, pilgrim.1

i have been reading your post from the first page and i think we have all got it wrong. I accept am catholic born and bred all through but i have to admit am not a fanatic of the church. I later got to realise that it's not what the church teaches or prophecies that we should do but what we actually believe in. 3000 yrs ago, there was no christianity and people still believed in a supreme being and how they paid homage to that being was within them and nobody else. Have you thought of the next 3000 years whether people would still believe in christianity? The point am trying to make is that you dont criticize people unecessarily about what they believe in. If they have actually commited a crime in your eyes for believing in something which is inexplicable to you, it is a moral crime and left for God to judge not you.

Actually, do we know whether the muslims are the chosen ones or Olumba Olumba or the people worshipping mami water? You might say the bible told me this and the bible told me that but if you look at the history of the bible, you would know that the bible was edited to suit various people who wanted the bible to look this way? People that believed in Magdalene and a host of others, but the point is judge you not because you dont know who is going to judge you, this is a very sensless topic that is capable of encouraging religious zealotry

@lawyer,

God's WORD is crystal clear - right from "3000 years ago" that you mentioned to the present, He FORBIDS making imagies of anyone (MALE or FEMALE) to bow down to. It is wrong. QED.

You cannot claim to be worshipping Him and ignoring what He says. Hear Him:

[list]
Luke 6:46  --  "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"[/list]

[list]
John 14:15  --  "If ye love me, keep my commandments."[/list]

No two ways about it, lawyer. If God has cleary said He FORBIDS believers making "the likeness of anything in heaven or earth" (whether they are male or female statutes), what excuse do we have to close our eyes, ears and hearts against His WORD and still claim we love Him? 

You all can say what u want! Judge however u want, say all the crap u have to say. I have my beliefs and no one can change it. God knows best thats all i have to say!

@pilgrim

Ok if someone says he doesn't believe in God or the bible but he believes in science, reincarnation or simply in his shoes, do you have to castigate him for his beliefs? If you were born in the middle east, at this rate your talking, you would probably be a moslem fanatic or better still Al-Qaida and proclaiming fatwa for everyone that goes against your religious thoughts. Let us see what will happen at the end, not judge ppl at the middle.

You can quote the bible from genesis to revelation, but that doesnt make you more holier than the Azetecs of Mexico who still worship the sun. If you know your argument is so concrete, why dont you go to china or japan and tell them buddah worshipping is idolatory and see if you will come back with your head intact!

@lawyer,

Thanks for replying. I'm not a "Moslem fanatic" - never have been; although I hated Christianity with a passion before I became a Christian, especially because of the idolatory we saw in Catholicism. I've held my cool up until now, being careful to make it clear that hietherto I'd not accused Catholics of worshipping idols. But this was the mindset we had as Muslims, especially when we read the Bible. If you want relevant verses in the Qur'an and Hadith to show this, I'd gladly offer them.

It is just the grace of God that opened my eyes to see that Catholicism does not represent true Christianity, just as so many denominations in Islam do not represent true Islam. Many Catholics have this hilarious attitude of frantically appealing to extremisms in Islam and other religions whenever people try to dialogue with you guys on the traditions of Catholicism. I'm not perturbed if you want to worship a shoe and call that your own god; but please don't pretend that is the better alternative to answering questions from the WORD of the living God! If you're going to call yourself a Christian, do what the Lord has spoken.

lawyer:

You can quote the bible from genesis to revelation, but that doesnt make you more holier than the Azetecs of Mexico who still worship the sun.

Thank you again. Whether you like it or not, this is what God has said about worshipping the sun:

[list]
Deuteronomy 4:16 & 19
"Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
. . And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, . . "

Deuteronomy 17:2 & 3
"If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant, And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded"[/list]

I'm sure when you face the Lord in that Day, you'll have something to argue with Him about worshipping the sun - just so that you guys will seek any excuse to keep up the molten images you carve out in Catholicism in direct disobedience to His WORD.

lawyer:

If you know your argument is so concrete, why don't you go to china or japan and tell them buddah worshipping is idolatory and see if you will come back with your head intact!

There are Christians in China and Japan who are preaching the Gospel and God is blessing His WORD to the hearts of millions there. Your excuse is another typical one that Catholics use to evade the warning against idolatory in God's WORD.

kulex2k1:

You all can say what u want! Judge however u want, say all the crap u have to say. I have my beliefs and no one can change it. God knows best thats all i have to say!

The WORD of God is not "crap" - that is why we take time to post the verses clearly so you can read, just incase you have been encouraged to never read the Scriptures. If someone points out the WORD to you, how is the person judging you? The Catholic "missionaries" who go to other places in order to make converts to Catholicism - are they not "judging" those people by asking them to abandon their traditions and embrace Catholicism?

Abeg you Catholics, please take another look at the verse quoted earlier, look at the pictures following and explain to us non-Catholics HOW the Catholic Church is obeying the WORD of God:


The Bible:

[list]
Leviticus 26:1

Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image,

neither rear you up a standing image,

neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land,

-- to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.[/list]



Catholicism in Pictures:











Dear Catholic friends, the WORD of God is clear. You cannot disobey God's WORD and claim to be "the only true Christians". Could you please kindly explain to us non-Catholics what has happened to that verse in your own Bibles?

@Pilgrim, which one is true Islam, since your discourse (pardon me if I am wrong) is alluding to the fact that they may be an element of truth in Islam.

@Ndipe,

Well, what I meant by 'true' Islam is not that Islam is "the truth", although Muslims may have their convictions that it is (I was persuaded without good reasons that Christianity was wrong!). Rather, when we speak of 'true Islam', I meant to point out that there are many denominations in Islam that are simply not in accord with the Qur'an or Hadiths as Muhammad gave to Muslims.

A few examples of the sects in Islam that do not represent the Qur'an or Hadiths:

[list]
Hanafiyah

Followers of the Imammate of Muhammad ibn-al-Hanifah. They believe that Allah might have had a beginning.[/list]


[list]
Hashamiya / Taraqibiyah

They Predicate a body to Allah and also allege Prophet (pbuh) of disobedience to Allah.
[/list]


[list]
Zarariyah

They believed that Allah did not live nor had any attributes till He created for Himself life and His attributes.[/list]

Any Muslim who is sound in Islam knows that these groups do not represent Islam as given by Muhammad. That's what I meant by those who do not represent 'true Islam'.

Cheers.

@Pilgrim.1 and all other Non-Catholics and Catholic themself

I know that no matter the explanation you have bent down not to accept your fellow brethrens (catholic) Remember that God is love.

What is an Image?
An Image is a representation of person or anything made or carved of paper, stone, wood etc. Any picture can be regarded as an image. You can see pictures and all forms of images and statues of the saints in all Roman Catholic Churches all over the world.

This does not mean that we Catholics r goin contrary to d commandment of God, that says: "thou shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth, you shall not bow down 2 them or serve them" (Exodus 20:3-5). This is where all the contradiction comes. But this teaching or saying is a misinterpretation of the word of God.

It is right to warn people of the sin of idolatry but not to accuse them falsely either because of ignorance, hatred or envy. some people who want to be masters of their own and in order to lure ignorant people to their assembly or bring people together for their selfish purposes may continue to accuse Catholics falsely. They go all out to castigate the church founded by Christ himself. They try to pollute people's minds giving them the wrong impression that God disapproved of making of image.

We should not forget that the same people who are accusing you of using images have their own pictures and also keep their children's, wives, husband photographs and even those of their dead loved ones for remembrance. We should know that God cannot contradict himself (Genesis 1:26) God says "Come let us make man in our image after our likeness, and in the image of God man was made"

God is Almighty and can never contradict Himself.

Hear what God says in Exodus 25:17-20 "Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold two cubits and a half shall it be in length, and a cubits and a half shall it be in length, and a cubit and half in breath" Vs 18 says: "And you shall make two Cherubim of gold of hammered work shall make them on the two ends of the mercy seat" Vs 19 says: Make a cherub on one end and one Cherub on the other end." VS 20 says: The Cherubim shall spread out their wings above overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings. Towards the mercy seat shall the faces of the Cherubim be"

As Omniscience God, who knows the future, he knew that some people due to their selfish interest may in time to come misinterpret his word. In Exodus 20:1-5 he quickly commanded Moses to make Images for use in so many places in the scripture to let the people understand what he said or meant so that his Children will not be misled by heretics (teachers). Num:21:6-9, Exo 32:1-4, Gen 3:17, Chro 28:18-20, and so many other places in the scriptures.

Even Juanita Bynum, in one of her gospel track, they carved Mercy Seat and they all ran and bowed before it. Tell me are they worshipping it?


I love you all with the love of Christ.

My dear Oby1,

Na only you I know for Nairaland. . . friends have a way of speaking to the heart, even when they are persuaded about different things.

Thank you for sharing with a gentle spirit. Now, let me do likewise by responding to yours:

Oby1:

I know that no matter the explanation you have bent down not to accept your fellow brethrens (catholic) Remember that God is love.

It's rather not true that we've bent down to not accept our fellow brethren. If I could speak for myself, my proposition is simply that our dear brethren share from God's WORD about the things that we as Protestants continue to query about Catholic practices which we do not find in Scripture. Our love to God is defined in terms of our keeping His WORD:

[list]
John 14:15 -- "If ye love me, keep my commandments."[/list]

[list]
1 John 5:2 -- "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."[/list]

Oby1:

It is right to warn people of the sin of idolatry but not to accuse them falsely either because of ignorance, hatred or envy.

Well, perhaps that is how Catholics feel anytime people try to share with them; but my doing so id neither out of ignorance, hatred, envy, nor yet anything of the sort.

Oby1:

some people who want to be masters of their own and in order to lure ignorant people to their assembly or bring people together for their selfish purposes may continue to accuse Catholics falsely. They go all out to castigate the church founded by Christ himself.

Pardon me, but the Catholic Church was not founded by Christ Himself. This is the reason why I've tried to invite a discussion about the PAPACY as my reference point to the origins of the Roman Catholic Church. Up until now, not one Catholic has been willing to tell us anything about the origins of Catholicism other than the mere claims that have been made frequently without a Biblical foundation.

If Jesus Christ founded the Roman Catholic Church or Catholicism, we would have to find the following in the Bible:

[list]
* Christians Praying TO Mary

* Christians bowing down to statues and pictures

* Christians referring to any POPE or BISHOP as "FATHER" (Matthew 23:9)

* Christians teaching that Mary is co-redemptrix (i.e., "the Fifth Marian Dogma"

. . . and so many things that Catholics cannot find in the WORD
[/list]

Even so, we continue to ask questions about the practices which the Catholic Church has adopted but which God has clearly warned against in His WORD.

Oby1:

We should know that God cannot contradict himself (Genesis 1:26) God says "Come let us make man in our image after our likeness, and in the image of God man was made"

It is true that God never contradicts Himself. Nowhere in the Bible did God make man in His image and likeness so that anyone should bow down to and pray TO Adam! He did not create any man to be an idol - and that is why His warnings are clear that believers should not make the likeness of anything (whether male or female) and bow down to them! If God expressly forbids it, there's no excuse to contradict His WORD that will stand His judgement.

Oby1:

Hear what God says in Exodus 25:17-20 "Then you shall make a mercy seat of pure gold two cubits and a half shall it be in length, and a cubits and a half shall it be in length, and a cubit and half in breath" Vs 18 says: "And you shall make two Cherubim of gold of hammered work shall make them on the two ends of the mercy seat" Vs 19 says: Make a cherub on one end and one Cherub on the other end." VS 20 says: The Cherubim shall spread out their wings above overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings. Towards the mercy seat shall the faces of the Cherubim be"

I'm glad that you mentioned tose scriptures. But here's the deal:

[list]
NOWHERE do we read that any Jew bowed down to the "Cherubim of gold of hammered work" before the mercy seat.
[/list]

Since the "Cherubim of gold of hammered work" represent angelic beings, si Catholics have claimed that the statues and pictures and imagies only represent Mary - and it is a FACT that Catholics bow down to those statues and pray TO Mary. My questions now:

[list]
is there ANY verse that says the Jews "bowed down" to the Cherubims of gold, or used those "hammered work" in order to pray TO the Cherubims to intercede for them?[/list]

[list]
did any Jew or believer ever pray TO or "honour" the Cherubims as Catholics claim that the statues of Mary were simply for honouring her?[/list]


If God did not ask them Jews to bow down to, or pray TO, or honour the "Cherubim of gold of hammered work", why do Catholics make statues of Mary and do what God expressly forbids? Why bow down to such statues and images and claim what God calls an abomination? Where did God ever create man (or Adam) in His image so that anyone could bow down and "pray" TO Adam?

Can any Catholic please explain WHERE God ever asked you to bow down to, or pray TO, or "honour" the images that are in the Catholic Church?

@Oby1,

Oby1:

As Omniscience God, who knows the future, he knew that some people due to their selfish interest may in time to come misinterpret his word. In Exodus 20:1-5 he quickly commanded Moses to make Images for use in so many places in the scripture to let the people understand what he said or meant so that his Children will not be misled by heretics (teachers). Num:21:6-9, Exo 32:1-4, Gen 3:17, Chro 28:18-20, and so many other places in the scriptures.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble. But God did NOT command Moses to make images in Exodus 20:1-5. Perhaps you may want to look into that passage and check it out.

Second, Num. 21:6-9 the issue was not for "praying TO" the serpents; nor "honouring" the serpents; nor even seeking the serpents to intercede for the Jews! The problem that prompted the making of a bronze serpent on a pole was SIN! The people had spoken "against God, and against Moses" (vs. 5); and they came and confessed their sin: "the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee" (vs. 7). Thereupon God asked Moses to make the serpent of bronze so that those who looked at it maybe healed (vs. 8-9). There is no mention there of any Jew doing the same things that Catholics claim to be doing with their statues in Catholicism, whether:

[list]
[li]praying TO the serpent[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]"honouring" the serpent[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]asking that the serpent "intercede" for them[/li]
[/list]

[list]
[li]bow down to the bronze serpent[/li]
[/list]

From WHERE do Catholics get the idea that that they should do all the above to statues of Mary, statues of the Pope, and statues of other "saints"?

Did you ever ask what happened to the bronze serpent afterwards? It was never used as part of the Jewish worship service; but guess what? Here:

[list]
2 Kings 18:4
He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.[/list]

There! That's a verse that will truly help Catholics and bring them to God's WORD!

The other passages you quoted: Gen. 3:17 has nothing to do with making images for bwoing down to, praying TO, honouring, or asking intercession from it. 1 Chron 28:18-20 already discussed above - no one ever bowed down to those images. And we know that Exodus 32:1-4 points to the worship of the golden calf - which God hated and showed His displeasure on account of it.

Oby1:

Even Juanita Bynum, in one of her gospel track, they carved Mercy Seat and they all ran and bowed before it. Tell me are they worshipping it?

It's unfortunate that Juanita Bynum and others have tried to imitate the idolatory of their hearts contrary to God's WORD. There are many silly megastars who no longer have a good grasp of God's WORD and now substitute the leanings of their own hearts for the revelation of God's WORD. Their actions do not speak for Christians who seek His WORD.

Cheers.

@pilgrim

I have to give up at this moment trying to convince you to be your brother's keeper no matter what he or she is spiritually inclined to. As long as its not disturbing the way you eat, sleep or pray, what does it matter to you. At least the Nigerian constitution provides for freedom of worship of whatever choice you choose. You can rant all day about catholics being idolatory in their form of worship, but it doesnt stop us from beleieving that there is only one true God and his son who died for our sins Jesus Christ. It doesnt matter whatever perspective or mode of worship we use to honour the lord but we all accept that Jesus christ is our saviour. What else do you want? Tomorrow we follow your idea and stop " idolizing" according to you, then you bring up another issue until your exhausted and we begin to follow your own creed and form of worship. We are not zombies and we have the right to follow what we believe in, no matter how you criticize, insult, stir up the embers of hate and antagonism that you have created on this forum. Pls grow up and spread the word and not spread hate. The annoying thing is that if you want people to pick holes in your own doctrine or church, why dont you boldly tell us the church you worship in and see what fellow christians that are not members of your church would say!, i hope your ready for the scrutiny and cross fire, if your dare bold to tell us where you worship. You want to turn us to shallow christians that have no respect for religious institutions, plz be my guest and bring it on

@ Pilgrim
I totally agree with lawyer u tell us the church u worship in. Common we are all waiting lets hear it.

Hello Locoman,
I am personally interested in your remarks. What catholic practices are not biblical and the Catholic origin or history you were refereeing to ?

The Facts

Firstly Images: Their Use commanded by God – Exodus 25: 18 -21
Further references: Num xxi 8,9 ; Paral xxviii 18,19 ; Ex. Xxxvii 6-9 ; 3Kings vi. 29,31,32 , 3Kings vii 35,36 ; 2Paral. iii 7,10,14

"You shall then make a propitiatory of pure gold, two cubits and a half long, and one and a half cubits wide. Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory, fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end. The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory. This propitiatory you shall then place on top of the ark. In the ark itself you are to put the commandments which I will give you”.


Secondly, the History of christendom and catholism are inseparable. Speak to the historians or reference any public encyclopedia such as

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic

The Facts

Firstly Images: Their Use commanded by God – Exodus 25: 18 -21
Further references: Num xxi 8,9 ; Paral xxviii 18,19 ; Ex. Xxxvii 6-9 ; 3Kings vi. 29,31,32 , 3Kings vii 35,36 ; 2Paral. iii 7,10,14

"You shall then make a propitiatory of pure gold, two cubits and a half long, and one and a half cubits wide. Make two cherubim of beaten gold for the two ends of the propitiatory, fastening them so that one cherub springs direct from each end. The cherubim shall have their wings spread out above, covering the propitiatory with them; they shall be turned toward each other, but with their faces looking toward the propitiatory. This propitiatory you shall then place on top of the ark. In the ark itself you are to put the commandments which I will give you”.


Secondly, the History of christendom and catholism are inseparable. Speak to the historians or reference any public encyclopedia such as

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic

religion is always WAR, beware

Ebos & lawyer and all catholic-voltrons (voltron is the defender of the universe) in the house, this is the question i keep asking and yet to get an answer to :

How did Mary's statue come into being in the picture especially as Peter (since you claim he is your first pope) did not perform the rituals of bowing down to Mary?

cgift:

Ebos & lawyer and all catholic-voltrons (voltron is the defender of the universe) in the house, this is the question i keep asking and yet to get an answer to :

How did Mary's statue come into being in the picture especially as Peter (since you claim he is your first pope) did not perform the rituals of bowing down to Mary?

@cgift,

You won't get answers because they have none. QED.

kulex2k1:

@ Pilgrim
I totally agree with lawyer u tell us the church u worship in. Common we are all waiting lets hear it.

@kulex2k1,

Please read the following:

post #224 -- https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-74061.224.html#msg1441696
post #234 -- https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-74061.224.html#msg1441909
post #251 -- https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-74061.224.html#msg1442724

If you can't defend your practices from the Bible, will asking for my denomination make you a better Catholic?