Cgift,

I don read for one of the threads say de time wey you go marry your wife – na him their people begin list everything wey you go buy, even de money wey dem carry pay him school fees. As de thing come plenty, na him you come vex leave your wife waka with your people. The following day, the lady pack him things run come meet you. Cgift, I no blame you my brother, na so me I go still do when de expenses don plenty pass explanation. After all, no be buy you dey buy de girl, na marriage

Yes, by his Grace i will like to be like Mother Teresa.

@ebos,

ebos:

So, if he shoot with AK47, Pilgrim fire back with Machine gun.  If he use rocket, Pilgrim go launch Nuclear bomb

Chei! Na your friend you dey finish so, abi? No worries - very soon I go reveal your modus operandi: na "silencer" you dey use  (puum-puum!!), abi I wrong?  What about your poisonous gas project? I hear say the UN dey consider sacntions against you, na true?

Oby1:

Yes, by his Grace i will like to be like Mother Teresa.

Okay - we go dey follow the news update when you reach Calcutta! More grace to you.

Pilgrim ask Cgift, why him go marry before ebos. She na beans? Na de answer wey I get be dat.

Cgift na true, if na true which means na Imo lady you marry.

@pilgrim
Okay - we go dey follow the news update when you reach Calcutta! More grace to you.

Just watch out because e bi like sey God don start the process

Amen O. . amen!!

Make una tell gozzi say na english dem take write bible no be arabic or latin. So bible no suppose hard am to understand. Jesus said "I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH & THE LIFE, NOBODY COMES TO THE FATHER [b]EXCEPT [/b]BY ME". Anything hard for that one? Jesus use the word "EXCEPT" and he has not given room to ambuity as to whether you can go through another route. So make hin no say bible they difficult to understand. This is 2007 not 538BC

Fellow catholics. It has been a while since i have been on any religious thread and though once in a while, i do monitor the discussions from the side lines, i have to admit, this is a very dangerous topic that has ended up achieving the aim of whoever wanted to pass a message across.

Since my previous banters with people that are against catholics, i have come to realise that, religious matters are dangerous topics to tread on and i have to say, whatever message has been passed here, has negatively affected my belief in the catholic church and for almost 2 weeks, i have thought and pondered over all the issues raised and i have finally come to a decision not to be a catholic or christian whatsoever.

There are so many arguments all in the name of God and what should be right and what's not right and whose scripture is the best to read and whats not to follow. It's a little bit disheartening where mankind would go to great extend to discuss things that could potentially damage one's spiritual life.

I have no grouse against anyone and probably think it's the best thing to do. I remain a free thinker and would vigourously try and understand the meaning of all this. It's too difficult to understand and it would be best to finally sign off from these kinds of boards lest i get more bleeped up than i am already. I really dont know how many people have been braintwisted like me by reading all these posts but as for me, the easiest way is the best way out.

Religion is too complicated and i'll just wait till the end of time good or bad, i'll remain a freethinker for life from now on.

Hope someone out there prays for me to see the light someday, but as for now, i doubt even if i believe in prayers anymore to whoever or whatever

Saint of the Day 28/9/07

St. Wenceslaus (907?-929)


If saints have been falsely characterized as "otherworldly," the life of Wenceslaus stands as an example to the contrary: He stood for Christian values in the midst of the political intrigues which characterized 10th-century Bohemia.

He was born in 907 near Prague, son of the Duke of Bohemia. His saintly grandmother, Ludmilla, raised him and sought to promote him as ruler of Bohemia in place of his mother, who favored the anti-Christian factions. Ludmilla was eventually murdered, but rival Christian forces were victorious, and Wenceslaus was able to assume leadership of the government.

His rule was marked by efforts toward unification within Bohemia, support of the Church and peace-making negotiations with Germany, a policy which caused him trouble with the anti-Christian opposition. His brother Boleslav joined in the plotting, and in September of 929 invited Wenceslaus to Alt Bunglou for the celebration of the feast of Sts. Cosmas and Damian. On the way to Mass, Boleslav attacked his brother, and in the struggle, Wenceslaus was killed by supporters of Boleslav.

Although his death resulted primarily from political upheaval, Wenceslaus was hailed as a martyr for the faith, and his tomb became a pilgrimage shrine. He is hailed as the patron of the Bohemian people and of former Czechoslovakia.

Quote

"While recognizing the autonomy of the reality of politics, Christians who are invited to take up political activity should try to make their choices consistent with the gospel and, in the framework of a legitimate plurality, to give both personal and collective witness to the seriousness of their faith by effective and disinterested service of men" (Pope Paul VI, A Call to Action, 46).

[b]@Lawyer
"Fellow catholics. It has been a while since i have been on any religious thread and though once in a while, i do monitor the discussions from the side lines, i have to admit, this is a very dangerous topic that has ended up achieving the aim of whoever wanted to pass a message across.

Since my previous banters with people that are against catholics, i have come to realise that, religious matters are dangerous topics to tread on and i have to say, whatever message has been passed here, has negatively affected my belief in the catholic church and for almost 2 weeks, i have thought and pondered over all the issues raised and i have finally come to a decision not to be a catholic or christian whatsoever.

There are so many arguments all in the name of God and what should be right and what's not right and whose scripture is the best to read and whats not to follow. It's a little bit disheartening where mankind would go to great extend to discuss things that could potentially damage one's spiritual life.

I have no grouse against anyone and probably think it's the best thing to do. I remain a free thinker and would vigourously try and understand the meaning of all this. It's too difficult to understand and it would be best to finally sign off from these kinds of boards lest i get more bleeped up than i am already. I really don't know how many people have been braintwisted like me by reading all these posts but as for me, the easiest way is the best way out.

Religion is too complicated and i'll just wait till the end of time good or bad, i'll remain a freethinker for life from now on.

Hope someone out there prays for me to see the light someday, but as for now, i doubt even if i believe in prayers anymore to whoever or whatever. " [/b] [color=#006600][/color]


Don't take because of what you read in this thread and say you want to remain a free thinker.
The Cost of being a disciple is demanding, but God has given us sufficient Grace. Read Luke 14:25-33
Vs 30 "This man began to build but can't finish the job"

One of the ways to be a good disciple is to Serve God because he is God not for any other reason.

If i follow the things i have been hearing about Catholic Church, i would hv been tasting other churches round, but i remain firm in my faith, no matter the storm on the way.

I plead with you not to go back, if you know where you are worshipping please continue.

Pilgrm, there is fire on the mountain o! See our friend lawyer!

lawyer:
Fellow catholics. It has been a while since i have been on any religious thread and though once in a while, i do monitor the discussions from the side lines, i have to admit, this is a very dangerous topic that has ended up achieving the aim of whoever wanted to pass a message across.

I really do not know the person who initiated this discussion ab initio but from the topic of the thread, i.e. Glory To Jesus, Honour To Mary! All The Real Catholics Please Stand Up! it is most probable that a thoroughly bred catholic would have ignited it. And i must apologise first on behalf of non-catholics that though, we where not invited but along the line, (since we were also reading from the sidelines) had to invade your dear privacies to 'contribute' and possibly engage our minds in warm arguments as to the veracity of most assertions (call them doctrines or tenets may be) being put forward by our dear brothers.

I must also opine that it was not our intention to make an atheist or freethinker [/b]of any practising catholics but to 'try' to correct som impressions. THis we did to the best of our ability accroding to th grace of the Holy Spirit. I must tell you that you guys got us thinking at some points too. We had to seriously search the scritures too! Yeap. I read and i guess your favourite friend pilgrim must have researched thoroughly in order to throw some light into many burning issues. I for one must confess that i was increased in knowledge as the engagement added more to my k-base.

Paul said; [b]1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.. He said Prove ALL THINGS. ALL! Not some. That means what you cant prove or substantiate (like i said in one of my rejoinders) is baseless. There is the writtn code. Any oral traditions passed down must not contradict the one we can see else you are watering the believe that God is 'confused' but God ain't the author of confusion. W must be very careful here. I know as a bible scholar yourself, you know sincerely what that statement means that you should prove all things.

lawyer:
Since my previous banters with people that are against catholics, i have come to realise that[b], religious matters are dangerous topics[/b] to tread on and i have to say, whatever message has been passed here, has negatively affected my belief in the catholic church and for almost 2 weeks, i have thought and pondered over all the issues raised and i have finally come to a decision not to be a catholic or christian whatsoever.

Yes, religious matters are dangrous topics to engage in but we thank God for forums like this. In most cases, bashings were coming from several sides which probably may imply that if it were physical debates, some peopl would have resorted to very unorthodox means like fighting anyone with divergent views. But in these kind of fora, you dont see the person you are discussing with, hence, its only a virtual war and cannot result into blood-shedding. That's why we must leverage on the advantages offerred by this medium extensively.

Jesus knew how difficult and painstaking it would be when he said that you will hav persecutions because of me: he knew matters of the divine appeals to the inner-man which people hold dearly and are willing to die for but he commanded us that we should 'go into the world and preach the gospel'. He said Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.. Yes, persecution must come and in itself it is very dangerous. They must violate your privacies and tear apart your comfort zones thereby revealing some insecurities. When people then feel insecured, they react. Matters of the spirit appeals seriously to the psyche, nevertheless, we are obligated to continue to dish it out like this: 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
. You see why we could not help it but engage you guys extensively. We knew we were threading on very dangerous grounds but we had to go on. Again thanks to virtual forums like this.

lawyer:
There are so many arguments all in the name of God and what should be right and what's not right and whose scripture is the best to read and whats not to follow. It's a little bit disheartening where mankind would go to great extend to discuss things that could potentially damage one's spiritual life.

Again, let me reiterate that we never intended to 'damage' - thats very heavy. It was rather supposed to make people see reasons and make adjustments. It is scriptural to rebuke, reprove and exhort 'with all longsuffering'. That was why we refused to renege despite threats. My brother it is worth it.

lawyer:
I have no grouse against anyone and probably think it's the best thing to do. I remain a free thinker and would vigourously try and understand the meaning of all this. It's too difficult to understand and it would be best to finally sign off from these kinds of boards lest i get more bleeped up than i am already. I really don't know how many people have been braintwisted like me by reading all these posts but as for me, t[b]he easiest way is the best way out.[/b]

Lawyer, you are a very intelligent person, (and i mean every word of it please) at least you would see it in several salient points you raised but still needed to be put straight. I would quickly say that taking the "easiest way which is the way out (as you said) may be good for one reason: It enables you to, from without (outside) go back into the very foundations and do some serious scrutiny. The way of Christ, the way of the cross is no doubt the only sure way (no other person ever said - I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, & THE LIFE, NOBODY COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT BY ME". No one ever said that categorically and guess you know the import of those words more than I do.

From without, you would be able to see and not be subject to the mistake of accepting 'anything' without first putting it to test of fire of God's words. Any traditions of / from God would not crash like a pack of cards when subjected to the intense that of God's words. Accepting the 'traditions' without commensurate test (like the Bereans in aCTS 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so., is the mistake many people make. Even I as a protestant, when my Pastros say somthings, i subject it nebcause they are 'humans', they are 'fallible' and prone to mistakes (of which they may later apologise but the deed has been done) - i go ahead to confirm (I mean some serious scriptural soul-searching) if they are true. If they aren't, engage them in some debates.

lawyer:
Religion is too complicated and i'll just wait till the end of time good or bad, i'll remain a freethinker for life from now on.
Hope someone out there prays for me to see the light someday, but as for now, i doubt even if i believe in prayers anymore to whoever or whatever

That is not the best of decisions bro, do not blank Christ. He is the author and finisher of our faith. You know from your heart of hearts that He loves you and wants to reach you so that you can commun with Him one on one. He is your source and you can only be the best in all ramifications of your life with and in Him. Life is not vague.

My advice is, while taking this break, seek him through his words with an 'open' mind. Read the scriptures in them you have eternal life. Meanwhile, i will take it as a sole responsiblity to continu to pray for you. Please send your e-mail to me (I will sincerely appreciate it through [email]crownsgift@yahoo.com[/email]).

I LOVE YOU & OTHER CATHOLIC BRETHREN WITH THE LOV OF CHRIST.

Glory to Jesus and Honour to Mother Mary

Here is another lovely prayer from my prayer book:

My Father, I come into your presence even as i begin my day

I come to find WISDOM so that today I will not make foolish mistakes
so that i will know when to speak and when to keep silent
when to act and when to refrain from action

I come to find PEACE, so that nothing may worry or upset me today

I come to find COURAGE, to be patient, not to give up hope
to accept disappointments knowing You will turn all things for my good

I have come to find LOVE, so that nothing makes me bitter unforgiving and unkind

i have come to begin this day with You and i desire to continue this day wit you
so that it will be a day with nothing to regret

Father You are my provider and I know that You will provide my day's needs

father You are my protector keep me this day free from all attacks from powers of darkness
cover me with precious Blood of your son Jesus
and surround me with your angels.


I make this Prayer in Jesus Name. . . . . Amen.




have a lovely day pple.

cgift:

Make una tell gozzi say na english them take write bible no be arabic or latin. So bible no suppose hard am to understand. Jesus said "I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH & THE LIFE, NOBODY COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT [/b]BY ME". Anything hard for that one? Jesus use the word "[b]EXCEPT" and he has not given room to ambuity as to whether you can go through another route. So make hin no say bible they difficult to understand. This is 2007 not 538BC

@ Cgift – though, not to debate with you but to call your attention to one particular word you used “EXCEPT”

I think Jesus said 'except' by me and you understand the word except very well. That’s fine and it shows how you (Protestants) interpret the bible. Though, I agree with you that no one comes to the father except through Jesus.

Now, why are you against Infant baptism? The same Jesus Christ said no one can enter the Kingdom of God 'except' (unless) you are born with water and spirit. It is the same except. My brother, you (Protestants) should be careful, your Pastors have brainwashed you guys. So, this except Jesus used in John 3:5 is different from your own except? Some bibles used the word 'Unless' while others used 'except' - but they mean the same thing.

Anyway, I still want to applaud your message to Lawyer. Why saying it has not been your intention to draw people out from the Catholic Church –however, you did welcome Lawyer’s decision to be able to see things clear outside Catholic Church. Sorrow joyful mind of Cgift.

@Lawyer,
When the troubles and trials of this world would come – those without faith would deviate from their true beliefs in Christ Jesus. If you can go ahead with your decision, it simply means how little you know the Word of God. Probably, you have not read anything yet against Catholic Church. I have read more irritating things than what we have been seeing in this forum. However, I know the truth, and you cannot get it outside Catholic Church. My brother forget the crap our friends having been posting here. Million of the craps cannot have any negative atom to my Catholic faith which is rooted in Christ.

Oby1

You are updating our knowledge everyday with the Saint(s) of the day(s). That’s so nice.

@viee.

I believe your last prayer came at the right time. It’s a prayer for all of us, especially to Lawyer. It seems you composed the prayer having foreknowledge of what Lawyer was up to. My advice to Lawyer is to recite the prayer everyday – all inclusive. It befits lawyer’s decision at this point.

@ lawyer,
puh-leze!! I know your type. Coming here to claim that human exchange has destroyed your faith!! You never start!! Christianity is not for the faint-hearted. Catholicism is for the very brave-hearted, the true soldiers of Christ at the battle front! You've been sitting on the fence all this while so at least your experience here has forced u to take a stand. My advice?? Stand for something, or u'll fall for anything - like u just did for some posts on this thread!!

Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary - Full Steam Ahead!!!!!!!!!

gozizi:

@ lawyer,
puh-leze!! I know your type. Coming here to claim that human exchange has destroyed your faith!! You never start!! Christianity is not for the faint-hearted. Catholicism is for the very brave-hearted, the true soldiers of Christ at the battle front! You've been sitting on the fence all this while so at least your experience here has forced u to take a stand. My advice?? Stand for something, or u'll fall for everything - like u just did on this thread!!

Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary - Full Steam Ahead!!!!!!!!!

My brother just help and tell him. I have told him and Oby1 said the same.

gozizi:

@ lawyer,
Catholicism is for the very brave-hearted, the true soldiers of Christ at the battle front! You've been sitting on the fence all this while so at least your experience here has forced u to take a stand. My advice?? Stand for something, or u'll fall for anything - like u just did for some posts on this thread!!

Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary - Full Steam Ahead!!!!!!!!!

You gozizi, don sign abi? You no wan even care if small error dey inside. That's somewhat dangerous i think.

On our dear lawyer, you cant condemn lawyer just like that now! Listen he said something:

lawyer:

I remain a free thinker and would vigourously try and understand the meaning of all this. It's too difficult to understand

For the meantime, he would try and reason deeply and ponder on all of the counters or the exposition we made about several issues. He needs it and for him to do it, he needs to first put down the old garb - that is if he must be objective with himself.

ebos :

Sorrow joyful mind of Cgift.

bros, I'm

@cgift

yes thanks anything to make sure we grow in faith, not only in words, but in action.

I still wonder how Catholics reason sometimes. All this talk about Mary should stop. Worship Jesus and not his mother. Period!

@gozizi

@ lawyer,
puh-leze!! I know your type. Coming here to claim that human exchange has destroyed your faith!! You never start!! Christianity is not for the faint-hearted. Catholicism is for the very brave-hearted, the true soldiers of Christ at the battle front! You've been sitting on the fence all this while so at least your experience here has forced u to take a stand. My advice?? Stand for something, or u'll fall for anything - like u just did for some posts on this thread!!

Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary - Full Steam Ahead!!!!!!!!!

Firstly gozizi, you dont know my type and i probably was invested in the catholic faith way beyond you. I was born into a catholic family, did my holy communion at the age of 6, attended a catholic primary and secondary school, did my confirmation at the age 8 and almost enrolled at a catholic seminary in S.S Peter and Paul Ibadan to become a priest until events changed my course of studies.

My 3 aunts are nuns and my uncle is a priest. So i used to have the catholic blood flowing in me 24/7 but as i realised on this thread, it's either you take a stand on something and become extremely dogmatic in it and refuse to see the other side or you open up and analyse certain things that continue to remain a mystery and when questions are being asked in the right direction, half answers and truths keep on cropping up from all angles. I defended the catholic faith to the best of my ability then but realising that, catholicism would continue to bring and pose more questions than answers, isnt the best thing right now.

The proponents of catholicism would continue to defend the doctrine but you know your flying below the radar and blind to certain things which you do not know the cause or reason why it happened. The history of catholicism is so deep in secrecy that when every something new comes up negatively, you dont know where to look and argue for or against.

The issues these people have brought out about the mariolatory tendencies is indeed true and i have to confess that up till the moment i started reading these threads, i never knew how deep catholicism is centred on the issue of mary before God. Too many titles to mary, too many novenas to mary, to many intercessionary matters to mary and one wonders if catholics are not living in a falsehood.

I remember when i was a kid, my aunt took me to a catholic church to make sure i confessed to a crime that i know i did, but i couldnt tell her i was the one because of the retributions that might come out of it. She canned and punished me but to no avail until she too me to church in front of a shrine of mary and the fear of the statue there made me confess, but now i wonder, was it because of the statue of mary i confessed or because of the imaginative powers she possessed that made me confess?

It has taken me years to understand throught this thread, and i wish i had never gone through this catholic threads but what ever the mission was, it worked.

On the other side, me not chosing to be a member of any religion came out from these threads. Tomorrow, another smart alec in matters of the church, could come and rip christianity apart or the muslim faith or what ever religion and you come back to square one again. So there is no point. I'll just live by the day and see whatever direction i land myself in. No need to be a crusader today in one doctrine and jump ship to another one. The mind is a very powerful thing and whenever the mind starts to ask questions, then doubt creeps in and once doubts cannot be furnished with concrete truths and evidence, then falsehood emerges. I feel sad throwing away what i believed in for many years and the most difficult part would be revealing it to my family soon. But as i said, i remain open to issues of the truth and if there is just one iota of semblance of what the truth is,then am game for whatever.

@lawyer,

Perhaps you may not even be interested in reading whatever I've to say in addressing you. Let me first begin by apologising about two things:


(a) I am deeply sorry for connecting you with orobo 50cl. I won't go into detail;
but I knew why I left the remark earlier that it was just 'a matter of time'. What
was it? I've been praying for you ever since. True or false? Again, it's just a
matter of time.

(b) I'm deeply sorry that what you read in these threads radically changed your
mind about Catholicism. But it is just the beginning; and I can trust God to bless
your life tremendously in the assurance of His unfailing love.


Yet, you're not alone - for more than 70 emails to date have reached me from people claiming to have left the Catholic faith because of my debates. Some were very angry, no doubt; others asked what and where next; and yet others have become very close friends who have found deep faith in Christ and are fellowshipping in other churches. The one thing I could appreciate in your reaction is your honesty - and I can't overemphasize that it is a very good place to start. It was never my intention to lead anyone away from Christ; but rather to challenge my readers to come to an honest faith in Him with Biblical integrity. As long as you're still honestly seeking to understand, you definitely will get there.

In all things, I have you in my prayers - and again, mark my words: it's just a matter of time.

Do you mind if I email you between times? You're welcome to do same - and I'd be most delighted.

Many blessings, and God's love certainly keep you in your quest.

Dear Catholic friends,

Perhaps you may have mixed reactions and emotions on the twist of events. When I first read lawyer's frank and forthright post this morning, the one scenario that played in my mind was the encounter Saul of Tarsus had with the living Christ. Inspite of the fact that there were Spirit-filled believers all over Jerusalem (Acts 2 and 4), it is remarkable that no amount of anointed preaching could reach this astute Jewish scholar who was sat at Gamaliel's feet. But upon his conversion, he was equally unstoppable - and the irony of his experience was as he himself acknowledged: "But they had heard only, that he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. And they glorified God in me" (Gal. 1:23 & 24).

It was clear that Saul of Tarsus, who was a Jewish convert to the Christian Faith, was consequently hated by his own Jewish affiliates . . . so much so that they sought to literally see his end. And the Christians? Some were initially scared and suspicious of him; a few were confident about him; others never understood him all through the course of his ministry; and yet some of his closest companions abandoned him at critical moments in his life. At the end of it all, he had a simple word for us all:

[list]"nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able"
(2 Tim. 1:12, partly quoted).[/list]


What has happened recently may come across many people in mixed ways. Yet for me, a willingness to be honest and forthright is a good beginning. What is of present concern is whether that good start would be further helped and nurtured with love from those whom he invites to share honestly with him in his further quest to understand the Christian Faith. There are 3 strong points that captured my interest in his rejoinder:

[list]1.

i realised on this thread, it's either you take a stand on something and become extremely dogmatic in it and refuse to see the other side or you open up and analyse certain things that continue to remain a mystery and when questions are being asked in the right direction, half answers and truths keep on cropping up from all angles.
. .
The proponents of catholicism would continue to defend the doctrine but you know your flying below the radar and blind to certain things which you do not know the cause or reason why it happened. The history of catholicism is so deep in secrecy that when every something new comes up negatively, you don't know where to look and argue for or against.

2.

The issues these people have brought out about the mariolatory tendencies is indeed true and i have to confess that up till the moment i started reading these threads, i never knew how deep catholicism is centred on the issue of mary before God. Too many titles to mary, too many novenas to mary, to many intercessionary matters to mary and one wonders if catholics are not living in a falsehood.
. .
It has taken me years to understand throught this thread, and i wish i had never gone through this catholic threads but what ever the mission was, it worked.

3.

I feel sad throwing away what i believed in for many years and the most difficult part would be revealing it to my family soon. But as i said, i remain open to issues of the truth and if there is just one iota of semblance of what the truth is,then am game for whatever.

[/list]


There. I trust we'd all have the temperance of heart to be objective and honest in our persuasions. It is not as if faith in Christ is merely theoretical - it is deeply practical and real! We are called to a living encounter and relationship with the risen and living Christ, and not to blind religious traditions that stand limp in the face of Biblical integrity.

What shall it be - Christ or tradition?

Shalom.

gozizi:

@ lawyer,
puh-leze!! I know your type. Coming here to claim that human exchange has destroyed your faith!! You never start!! Christianity is not for the faint-hearted. Catholicism is for the very brave-hearted, the true soldiers of Christ at the battle front! You've been sitting on the fence all this while so at least your experience here has forced u to take a stand. My advice?? Stand for something, or u'll fall for anything - like u just did for some posts on this thread!!

Glory to Jesus, Honour to Mary - Full Steam Ahead!!!!!!!!!

@gozizi,

Clearly, you'd completely misunderstood lawyer; and if he hadn't come back to reply yours, I definitely would have said the same thing. At least, by now you should understand that the exercises here are about discussions centered on what the Bible defines as Christianity, rather than the traditions held out to us from the RCC. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that saves is not predicated on Mariolatry; and trying to evaluate anyone's spirituality with Christ on the basis of the RCC is a very unfortunate assumption to make.

Regards.

abbeyboy:

I still wonder how Catholics reason sometimes. All this talk about Mary should stop. Worship Jesus and not his mother. Period!

Hmmm. . . it won't be long before we'd all find out that Catholicism is predicated on the worship of Mary. Soon. . dear friends. . . soon we shall find out.

Shalom.

Worshippers of MARY or God?

Having tried to discuss with Catholics on issues affecting us as Christians, I've decided to bring out the salient points neatly in this thread so the core concerns are not beclouded and we can deal with them soundly and forthrightly.

Let me remind you guys again about what's at stake. I have been asking several questions and often stating them quite simply. Rather than straightforward answers from our Catholic friends, they've resorted to hues and cries about being attacked. . . hated. . .criticized and all sorts. Nobody is attacking Catholics; and those complaints only sound typically defeatist and confirm the fact that some would rather close the Bible instead of heeding its message. Whatever the case, I'll be careful to remind our friends of the real issues here; while discussing some of them as we progress.


We shall begin with the question of W O R S H I P: what is "WORSHIP", dear Catholic friends? Whenever the question is raised as to whether or not Catholicism is about "worshipping" Mary, we often read the dogmatic response of "we are honouring Mary, not worshipping her". I've also followed that response with yet another simple question: could Catholics please define and explain clearly what they mean by "honouring" Mary? Same dogmatic statements without meaning or answers.

To this end, just to bring us closer home I'll be discussing the subject and asking us to carefully settle our thoughts on the sure word of God. The one reason why I do not have confidence in Catholic traditions and dogma is because Catholics themselves often have nothing to say in defence of their persuasions; and how do we begin to wax confident in that which even they themselves cannot confidently defend?

Until Catholics themselves begin to examine issues carefully, prayerfully and meaningfully, we shall only have to be continually entertained by mere traditions of men that have hugely departed from the sure WORD of God! Here then is the first concern in my subsequent discussion:

What is the meaning of the term "WORSHIP" in Catholic eschatology?

As we all understand that it affects us all as Christians, it is pertinent that we grasp its meaning and safeguard ourselves from idolatry in all of its forms.

The first part of our concern about the meaning of "worship" is the identity of the One to whom we give our Christian worship. We have no arguements at all that "worship" is to be offered to God and to Him alone - anything or anyone else that we devote any aspect of our worship to would immediately render such an act as 'idolatry'.

Catholicism charges that "Christians" who are not part of the Roman Catholic system are not proper or "true" churches. It necessitates the question therefore, as to who really is the Object of Catholic worship, so we may have a reference point for examining the claims of the RCC.

The first premise I propose is this: God is the One whom Christians worship - and Him alone. Nothing and no one can claim our worship in any form; and to seek to offer worship to anyone other than God alone is to fall into idolatry.

That said, it becomes necessary to ask questions about Mariolatry - the devotion offered to Mary. Is that bordering on "worship", or it has nothing more than the usual excuses of 'we are only "honouring" Mary' that our Catholic friends have constantly served in return?

First then: IDENTITY.

We recognize God by His revelation of Himself in His WORD. When Moses asked how he was to convince Israel in Egypt that God had sent him to them, God answered by distinguishing Himself by His NAME! Said He:

[list][li]"Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you" (Exodus 3:14)[/li][/list]

Just imagine for an instance, that Moses went to the children of Israel in Egypt and declared another person to be the "I AM" - what would have been your response or reaction?!?    That would simply mean that someone else would be claiming to be the "I AM" - therefore making two "I AMs" - if not worse than that!!.

Today, Catholicism is asking us to look the other way do precisely the same thing! That is why no one is going to read a seasoned answer as to WHY the Vatican has taken the divine titles of God and ascribed them to Mary! This practice is often disguised under the false claims that 'Catholics do not "worship" Mary' - but that's excatly how they denied the fact that Catholics actually "PRAY TO" Mary - until that fallacy was debunked.

We come now to our first question in the series of these discussions: although I've asked it several times before, I'll do so yet again and also discuss why it it important that the evidence speaks for itself!

#1. WHY has the Catholic Church taken the divine titles of God and ascribed them to Mary?


Among over 6,000 titles that the Catholic Church ascribes to Mary, the following stand out
clearly as those specifically belonging to God:

A. The "Glory of Israel" - MARY or GOD?


It is important to note that Roman Catholic scholars understand this appellation of "the Glory of Israel" to be nothing less than a divine title for the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. For instance, Fr. René Laurentin (theological consultant at Vatican II and author of over 100 books, widely recognized as a leading authority in Marian studies) made this interesting remark:

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"As Jesus enters the Temple Simeon greets him as 'the glory of Israel' (Luke 2:32). This is a divine title."

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[list][Source: René Laurentin, A Short Treatise on the Virgin Mary (Washington, New Jersey: AMI Press, 1991), pp.27-30.][/list]

That the Vatican concedes to the above is underscored by the FACT that Pope John Paul II in his various Homilies spoke of 'the Glory of Israel' as pointing to the Lord Jesus Christ. For instance, in his 'Eucharistic Celebration on the Feast of Presentation' (Sunday, 2 February 1997, also posted on an official Vatican website), the Pope is reputed to have said (emphasis mine):

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'In that 40-day-old infant it sees the “light” destined to illumine the nations,
and presents HIM as the “glory” of the people of Israel (cf. Lk 2:32).
It is he who must conquer death, as the Letter to the Hebrews proclaims,
explaining the mystery of the Incarnation and Redemption: “Since therefore
the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same
nature” (Heb 2:14), having taken on human nature.'

[/list]

It is interesting that Roman Catholic theologians have a Biblical text to confirm this divine title as belonging to Jesus Christ; but they have no such verse(s) to point to where Mary is ever given that same divine title.

John 14:6[b]Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me[/b].

JESUS IS THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE
WHOSOEVER COMETH TO HIM SHALL NEVER DIE