Janosky:

Your Bible says so...

Hosea 12:3-4
3In the womb he took his brother by the heel,
and in his manhood he strove with God.
4He strove with the angel and prevailed;
he wept and sought his favor.
He met God at Bethel,
and there God spoke with

Daniel 10:13-15
1599 Geneva Bible
13 But the [a]prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but lo, Michael one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I remained there by the Kings of Persia."
Footnotes
a. Daniel 10:13 Meaning, Cambyses who reigned in his father’s absence, and did not only for this space hinder the building of the Temple, but would have further raged, if God had not sent me to resist him, and therefore have I stayed for the profit of the Church.
[b] b. Daniel 10:13 Though God could by one Angel destroy all the world, yet to assure his children of his love, he sendeth forth double power, even Michael, that is, Christ Jesus the head of Angels."

Bros,Who is m'Elohim @ Psalms 8:5?
Nobody will force you to subscribe to the biblical truth.

Janosky:

Your Bible says so...

Hosea 12:3-4
3In the womb he took his brother by the heel,
and in his manhood he strove with God.
4He strove with the angel and prevailed;
he wept and sought his favor.
He met God at Bethel,
and there God spoke with

Daniel 10:13-15
1599 Geneva Bible
13 But the [a]prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but lo, Michael one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I remained there by the Kings of Persia."
Footnotes
a. Daniel 10:13 Meaning, Cambyses who reigned in his father’s absence, and did not only for this space hinder the building of the Temple, but would have further raged, if God had not sent me to resist him, and therefore have I stayed for the profit of the Church.
[b] b. Daniel 10:13 Though God could by one Angel destroy all the world, yet to assure his children of his love, he sendeth forth double power, even Michael, that is, Christ Jesus the head of Angels."

Bros,Who is m'Elohim @ Psalms 8:5?
Nobody will force you to subscribe to the biblical truth.

awitness41:


You have me wrong, friend.
I am not a Jehovah's Witness... my username is merely awitness41 (a witness for One) because that's what I'm supposed to do.
The Geneva Bible is not my Bible, nor do I buy its "Jesus is Michael" doctrine, nor do I buy any of its footnotes.
The Adventists say the same thing (Jesus is Michael), and I don't buy it from them either.
Like BKingsley said, Michael is one of the chief princes (per the KJV and NKJV).
And if you want another Bible reference to use for that, I sometimes check the YLT (Young's Literal Translation).
YLT, Daniel 10:13: `And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings of Persia;

So, the higher up Angels are called Archangels (Jude 9), and Michael might be the highest one.
Michael will also be participating in his higher-up position on the last day (Daniel 12:1, possibly also what 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is referring to).
I see no conflict.
Nor does any of this make Jesus Michael.

So calm down, and breathe, friend.
Don't let the JW's get to you.
I don't buy a lot of stuff denominations say... I only buy what the Bible says.

Betscoreodds:
Am still trying to figure out why some people think Micheal is Jesus lol

We have the right to judge angels so they can't be who we worship never

Kingsnairaland:


They say since Jesus will come with the voice of the arch angel on the last day that why

MaxInDHouse:


Please i'm interested in the underlined!
Below is the Oxford Dictionary description of the word "Idol" can you please expatiate on this?

PARACLETOS:


What I want is where JESUS WAS CREATED

Kingsnairaland:
lol tell me where you stand

22jumpstreet:


In Nicea by the 312 Presbyterians who emperor Constantine gathered together..

PARACLETOS:


Interesting... What portion of the scriptures can we find that sentence?

awitness41:


1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NKJV):
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

They're reading that wrong if they think it is Jesus' voice (or Jesus blowing a trumpet for that matter) on the Last Day.

They can also mis-read Matthew 24:31 too, if they don't discern properly.

Matthew 24:31 (NKJV): And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

On the Last Day, Christ is coming back with the "armies of Heaven" (Revelation 19:14), meaning ALL the Holy Angels (Matthew 25:31), which also includes high-ranking Archangels (like Michael, see Jude 9).

Now, let's ask: Who blows the trumpet when going into war - the King or His servants ? Obviously, the servants do.

So the "last trumpet" (1 Cor 15:52) on the day when Jesus Returns will be sounded by one of Jesus' servants who are with Him, that is, an Angel.

Therefore, we can also see that the "voice of an archangel" from 1 Thessalonians 4:16 isn't Jesus' own voice, but that of an Archangel who is with Him.

The shouting, the trumpet, and the voice of an Archangel will only be accompanying Jesus as He comes back.

If one reads the top two Verses again with this in mind, they will see it.

In fact, no one should attempt to "lower" Jesus to being an Angel or Archangel.

Besides Hebrews 1, and even BK's post above, we should ask - Who created the Angels ?

John 1:3 (NKJV): 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

God and Jesus created Angels.

That's why Hebrews 1 reminds us that even the Angels worship Jesus, in addition to God.

In my mind, it would actually be blasphemous to insist that Jesus Christ in the Michael the Archangel.

Some additional Verses on this topic:

Matthew 25:31 (NKJV):
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (NKJV):
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Rev 10:5-7 (NKJV):
5 The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand to heaven
6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer,
7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15-18 (NKJV)
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying:
"We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth."






I will open a thread on this issue of Jesus and Angel Michael. The issue will completely be settled in the light of the scriptures.

PARACLETOS:

WHO IS A WITNESS ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES?

The Apostles were Jesus's eye Witnesses
Acts. 10:38-39
38. how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
39. And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree

Therefore to be a Witness, you MUST have been the first to;
Observed
Seen
Felt
Witness
Touched

And NOT being;
Told
Narrated to
Discussed with
Informed
Etc.

[b]Some scriptural examples of TRUE Eye WITNESSES WERE;
1. Jehovah
2. Christ
3. Moses
4. Children of Israel
5. Apostles
6. Holy Spirit

*APOSTLES CHOSE A REPLACEMENT FOR JUDAS....

Read the conditions and who were deemed fit as a WITNESSE TO CHRIST

Acts. 1:21-23
21. Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus was living among us,
22. beginning from John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection.”
23. So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias... "

*PAUL ON HIS WAY TO DAMASCUS WAS MET BY JESUS WHO MADE HIM BECOME HIS EYE WITNESS
Acts. 26 :15-16
Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied.
16‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me.

So WHEN did either RUSSEL OR RUTHERFORD, OR WATCHTOWER OR ANY OF YOU ACTUALLY "SAW" "FELT" "TOUCHED" "OBSERVED" "WITNESSED" when JEHOVAH GOD CREATED the world or made anything or wrought miracles, or performe wonders as in the days of the children of Israel?

Therefore based on the aforementioned facts, ARE YOU QUALIFIED TO BE A JEHOVAH'S WITNESSE?

22jumpstreet:


In Nicea by the 312 Presbyterians who emperor Constantine gathered together..

22jumpstreet:


Maybe when you have done reading this book..

https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Jews-Never-Knew-Historical/dp/1578849160

22jumpstreet:


Just like somebody once said the second commandments is "Do not make the image or LIKENESS of anything in heaven or on earth or under the waters below the earth, do not bow down to them or serve them. "
And here you are referencing a man as God something that is in the likeness of what is found on earth. I.e a human being.
Numbers 23:19 clearly states that God is not a man or a human being....
So I reckon that idolatry has be worshipping anything that has form or anything that is created by God...or using them as a medium or mediator..which The first commandment forbids..

awitness41:


1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NKJV):
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

They're reading that wrong if they think it is Jesus' voice (or Jesus blowing a trumpet for that matter) on the Last Day.

They can also mis-read Matthew 24:31 too, if they don't discern properly.

Matthew 24:31 (NKJV): And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

On the Last Day, Christ is coming back with the "armies of Heaven" (Revelation 19:14), meaning ALL the Holy Angels (Matthew 25:31), which also includes high-ranking Archangels (like Michael, see Jude 9).

Now, let's ask: Who blows the trumpet when going into war - the King or His servants ? Obviously, the servants do.

So the "last trumpet" (1 Cor 15:52) on the day when Jesus Returns will be sounded by one of Jesus' servants who are with Him, that is, an Angel.

Therefore, we can also see that the "voice of an archangel" from 1 Thessalonians 4:16 isn't Jesus' own voice, but that of an Archangel who is with Him.

The shouting, the trumpet, and the voice of an Archangel will only be accompanying Jesus as He comes back.

If one reads the top two Verses again with this in mind, they will see it.

In fact, no one should attempt to "lower" Jesus to being an Angel or Archangel.

Besides Hebrews 1, and even BK's post above, we should ask - Who created the Angels ?

John 1:3 (NKJV): 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

God and Jesus created Angels.

That's why Hebrews 1 reminds us that even the Angels worship Jesus, in addition to God.

In my mind, it would actually be blasphemous to insist that Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel.

Some additional Verses on this topic:

Matthew 25:31 (NKJV):
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (NKJV):
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Rev 10:5-7 (NKJV):
5 The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand to heaven
6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer,
7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Rev 11:15-18 (NKJV)
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying:
"We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
18
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

MaxInDHouse:


Please the highlighted!

Can you explain these two scriptures?
Exodus 7:1
Psalms 82:6

Kingsnairaland:
can you worship an angel

MaxInDHouse:
Sorry the post wasn't meant for you but 22jumpstreet!

Kingsnairaland:
lol

MaxInDHouse:

Kingsnairaland:
are you afraid of my knowledge

MaxInDHouse:


Please the highlighted!

Can you explain these two scriptures?
Exodus 7:1
Psalms 82:6

22jumpstreet:

This is what the Hebrew original text says...
Hope you are not reading a mistranslated version. Check to make sure.

MaxInDHouse:
Use that knowledge for 22jumpstreet who RIDICULES your god, i just want to prove that Jesus can be a god not necessarily one to be worshiped just like Moses! Exodus 7:1
So use that your so called "knowledge" for him not me (Maximus)

Kingsnairaland:

You believe in Bible even though it is a perverted Bible But that guy I don't think he is alright up stairs
We flee from people who don't believe in the Bible

MaxInDHouse:


The highlighted is a LIE because the other guy quote from the Bible too just as i do so say something else.
If you want to FLEE from him there's no reason you won't do the same with me!

MaxInDHouse:


I don't argue with whatever text you present, i only try to reason along to be sure of what you want to pass as message.

So let's concentrate on Exodus 7:1
There the scriptures say someone made Moses like LORD over Pharaoh.

Please what is your definition of the word LORD and GOD?

PARACLETOS:



Let me bring this one here... There are hundreds of such foolish predictions abound by the WatchTower.

Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will remark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old, particularly those named by the Apostle in Hebrews chapter eleven, to the condition of human perfection" (Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, page 90)

This God's "ONLY TRUE ORGANIZATION" made this blasphemous prediction and so many other ones I will bring up later on.

I will CREATE A THREAD FOR THE NUMEROUS FALSE AND BLASPHEMOUS PREDICTIONS OF THE FALSE WITNESSES OF JEHOVAH

PARACLETOS:


Is obvious you have a limited idea about what you are defending.

Hundreds of WatchTower and Awake publications specifically fixes DATES AND YEARS FOR WORLD EVENTS.

Please I will not continue again until you finish studying MILLIONS NOW LIVING WILL NEVER DIE

PARACLETOS:

22jumpstreet:


I am just a human being ..just being myself. Having my own experiences. That is what spirituality is all about..

Kingsnairaland:

JWs is a cult

PARACLETOS:

You can say that again