Olu317:
So, the 1894 was superior to what the Ileife account asserts ? You must be a big time clown flawful to believe this account of Samuel Ajayi Crowther,who did not do any field research work in Ileife and inform peopele wrongly aboutt the place . Are you even aware that Samuel Ajayi Crowther misinterpreted some Yoruba lexicons ? If you are interestd, in knowing more kindly go to Ileife toknow if Oduduwa was a man or woman.

Mind you,there is ample evidence that showcase that, Oba Bini was a descendant of Oranmiyan, a Yoruba man and Oken okun was a direct descendant of Ekerledan,the founder of Ughottan , who died and was buried in the same Ughottan.

Truthvalue:


Instead of saying scholar this or scholar that why didn't you show an eye witness account of these tales ? You claim there is a European account, yet instead of showing it, you are boring me to death by talking about scholars here and there. I have already stated this time and again, and it is written on the very comment to which you are replying: history is studied through historical documents ( := eyewitness account) not "scholar account".

In fact let me serve you back the comment to which you were replying, you need yo read it again and again until you finally understand it and stop making contradictory statements

"1) If you knew anything about history then you would know that what matters for the study of history is not "history books" but historical documents. I know your education didn't go far enough to understand this concept.
"History" books about african history are often done by unprofessional bigots (or under their influences) and are filled with lies and fairytales and all sorts of fiction. That is why studying African history as an educated adult requires doing the work of a historian: seeking historical documents and going through them.

2) I am not interested in "anti-yoruba", I only seek to make hearing and seeing the truth an option to readers on nairaland. It is not my fault that yoruba tend to hate hearing the truth about themselves.

3) I couldn't even care less about yoruba except for the fact yoruba keep claiming my people and my heritage. So I shed a light on the history of Benin empire and put a nail kn the coffin of the fairytales of oduduwa and ogiso and oranmiyan.

4) Not contempt with my telling the truth about the history of my people which was documented by eyewitnesses, you and your yoruba followers including your transgender troll attacked me and harassed me and kept coming with more lies.

5) That is why I had to also study yoruba true history and expose it right here."

Also, as I already said, oranmiyan, oduduwa and ogiso are fairytales, you in particular do not seem to be able to talk about history without talking about people who never existed and were made up. And look at the new name you guys are now giving oranmiyan. Did you decide that in your last propagandist reunion, just like when you guys were creating that scam of "yoruba" etymology here on nairaland ? So now your fictional oranmiyan had a nomenclature following european style of name: family name and personal name. Just like your fraudulent "medieval" burial site of the King of Benin which was built with modern cement technology and which is littered with british alphabet. Your frauds are always so very obvious.

Olu317:
So, the 1894 was superior to what the Ileife account asserts ? You must be a big time clown flawful to believe this account of Samuel Ajayi Crowther,who did not do any field research work in Ileife and inform peopele wrongly aboutt the place . Are you even aware that Samuel Ajayi Crowther misinterpreted some Yoruba lexicons ? If you are interestd, in knowing more kindly go to Ileife toknow if Oduduwa was a man or woman.

Mind you,there is ample evidence that showcase that, Oba Bini was a descendant of Oranmiyan, a Yoruba man and Oken okun was a direct descendant of Ekerledan,the founder of Ughottan , who died and was buried in the same Ughottan.

gregyboy:
[/b]


What year was the bolded.... Dont bring anything beyond 1897


As for the Oduduwa are you telling me a yoruba needs research to know his ancestor...
Nawa

So i need research to know my grandfather or to know Jesus... Nawa oo

Tell me who never made mistakes in their writeup.... Samuel johson did, even the europeans and msny others


Play my audio

Truthvalue:


His definition of research is to go and listen to story tellers. The guy is a joke.

He still doesn't understand that historical research means studying eyewitness account, not storyteller account.

r4bbit:

we all know " logic" it's basic science( lol fvcking learnt that shit in ss1 )
Forget sentiment... You have not proven anything... Sorry not sorry



Cc :TAO11

Truthvalue:
Let me remind everybody a few facts: Benin city was burnt to the ground by the british, ife was not. Yet, the british had to build ife around 1912. So this brings the following questions:
1)what did ife look like before being built by the british
2) why build something which was not destroyed.
3) the current palace of the oni of ifa was built in the 1930's, yet the former was never destroyed by the british, so why build a new palace, was there any one prior to the one built in the 1930's or was it just a shrine ?

Stoplying:
Now, you see that ceremonial uniform of the Oba of Benin comes from his ancestors, the British took looted it from oba Ovonramwen alongside the famous Benin bronzes, they gave it back to Oba Eweka or Oba Akenzua, I can't remember exactly.

Now just for the purpose of history, can someone show me a picture of the oni of ifa in the period of Oba Ovonramwen and his traditional attire, thank you.

gregyboy:




Am here sir the desperate lady in her quest to prove me wrong Oduduwa wasnt an invention of Samuel johson she Referenced a book of 1894 talking about Oduduwa as a female goddess

And in our debate any refrence beyond 1897 would be regarded as invalid so don't her lure you beyond those years to prove her point she. Must be nailed

Using egharevba book written after 1897 as a refrence to her point is already invalid

Am waiting for your material sir

Let me drop the 1894 screenshot of the female Oduduwa

She wanted to escape from me calling Oduduwa an invention of Samuel johson and she gave me another point to hammer on, she will surely be punished by me

When am done with her she will look for earlier material regarding Oduduwa as a man and not a female goddess

Tao11 come here

Truthvalue:


The transgender is an uneducated and retarded propagandist, so retarded that the only explanation is mental illness which is independently visible by the transgender's obsession with both Benin and myself.

gregyboy:
[s]…
Let me drop the 1894 screenshot of the female Oduduwa
She wanted to escape from me calling Oduduwa an invention of Samuel johson and she gave me another point to hammer on, she will surely be punished by me
When am done with her she will look for earlier material regarding Oduduwa as a man and not a female goddess[/s]

TAO11:
Regarding your latest innuendos in your reply here:

(1) Again, S. A. Crowther’s 7-page brief side-step (out of his grammar book of 202 pages in sum) actually deals with only two things, viz.

(A) The account of origin/creation in Ife.

(B) The account of some of the kings of Oyo.

The first of these two is an allegorical creation story which no historian claims is literal history.

Neither did I claim it’s literal history at any point. This is simply a story foundational to religious beliefs.

It is an allegory, and as such may feature names, etc. that keeps changing from source to source.

For example, the Ifa source (Odu Oturupon-Wonifa to be precise) gives the names of these heavenly beings as Oduduwa, Orunmila, et al.

And there are books on the Yoruba people’s religion, etc. (published before Johnson’s history) which shows the name Oduduwa as one of these heavenly deities. See A.B. Ellis (1894).

Away from religious story and back to history now: In the whole of his 7 (out of 202) pages brief remark on the accounts of the Yorubas, his only touch on history is the half on Oyo and some of its kings.

No where in his very brief remark on “history” (in the grammar book) did he mention anything that has to do with the second dynasty of kings in Ife.

As such, your iSsuE of the OmMisSiOn of Oduduwa’s name from Ife’s history/kings is actually a very classic example of an absurd counter discourse.

samuk:
•••
Very soon TAO11 will be on her own and hope depression will not set in at the rate the Benin is demolishing and destroying her obsession.

TAO11:





If I come to this world a second time, I will still choose you as my slave.

(1) First of all, the context of comment in relation to which you’re replying here is shown in the embedded comment shown above.

From that comment, it is clear that the specific point there was about a deified Oduduwa — a deity — not the historical personage who himself was the deified.

(2) The word “deified”, by the way, “refers to the idea of elevating a human to the status of a deity usually after such person has passed on.

In such cases, the human-gender doesn’t necessarily determine the deity-gender.

In other words, a historical man may be admitted into a pantheon as a male deity, or a female deity, or as both.

In Benin kingdom for example, despite the historical Oduduwa being recognized even there as a man, he is deified as both a man, and a woman.

(3) Your screenshot (which reference I provided) is on a deified Oduduwa, in the specific context of religion.

The title of the book makes it clear that it is not about the history of Ife, etc. It isn’t even a history book at all. Its title makes this clear.

Moreover, the chapter’s title also makes it specifically clear that it is about divinities not the actual humans themselves. The chapter’s title reads as “CHIEF GODS”.

As such, the reference I gave to a non-history book is in agreement to the point I was making. And the point I was making on that thread, quoting word-for-word, is that:

“And there are books on the Yoruba people’s religion, etc. (published before Johnson’s history) which shows the name Oduduwa as one of these heavenly deities. See A.B. Ellis (1894).”

(4) And why did the issue of deified beings come up in the first place?

It came up because Crowther didn’t write about Ife’s history — being that he is a linguist and as such is concerned with grammar books, etc. — but at times devotes a very minuscule pages to accounts of some stories/histories in the introductory remarks.

In one of the introductory remarks, he touched on the story of creation at Ife, which features heavenly beings — not historical beings — whose names differ to an extent from the names given to the heavenly beings in some other version.

It was in this context (i.e. the context of deities) that I cited Oturupon-Wonifa as well as A.B. Ellis (1894) for the names Oduduwa, et al.

(5) Johnson’s later work, on the other hand, is a work on history (a comprehensive one at that), and as such covers the history of the Yorubas from the beginning to the king-Oduduwa period and all the way to the 1800s.

(6) In sum, the issue of omission does not come up in the case of Crowther because his grammar work (with some accounts) is not intended to (and did not) cover all the way up to the king-Oduduwa period.

Similarly, A. B. Ellis’ work (which focuses on religion, etc.) is obviously not a history book, and as such is not supposed (and did not) cover anything about king Oduduwa.

The specific mention of Odua in this work was clearly shown under the chapter entitled “CHIEF GODS”. In other words a deified Odua whose gender doesn’t necessarily follow that of the actual human who was deified.

In recognition of this unique gender-phenomenon in the deification of Yoruba personages, R. F. Burton in his 1863 publication writes in the * footnote of page 186 as follows:

“The fact that this deity is male, female, and hermaphrodite, is a fair specimen of pagan vagueness.”

Moreover, I have also alluded already to the kingdom of Benin where king-Oduduwa is of course known to have been a man, but is in the same breath deified as both a male deity, and a female deity.

God created you so I can have someone to mock. You remain my rag forever and ever. Amen.

Peace
Cc: r4bbit, Olu317

samuk:
[s]Benin greatness is self evident. Ife non existence greatness was created on paper. In the 1840s when Britain was already gaining strong foothold in the Niger area, they were continuously reminded that only the Oba of Benin can give legitimacy to who amongst the princes emerges as the Oba of Lagos. Benin was consistently mentioned in Lagos history because of the relationship and connection to Lagos.

Why was nothing written in this period about Benin/Ife relationship if indeed there was one.

Why would the British and Ajayi Crowder witness the reigns of five Obas of Benin and wrote nothing about their interactions with Ife if there was such interactions.

Records are there from when Benin/Ife interactions began, it was after the fall of the Benin empire. There is absolutely nothing written in Benin history to suggest Benin had any relationship with Ife prior to 1897.

I am still looking at the history books to find where Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan are mentioned with reference to Benin before 1897.

At this junction, almost all none Yorubas and quite a number of sincere Yoruba would have been convinced by now that there was indeed no interactions, connection and relationship between Benin and Ife until after 1897.

By the 1840s up till 1890, the Nigeria space was already fast opening up and a lot was written about the various tribes and their interactions with their neighbours. If Benin had anything to do with Ife, it would have most certainly be mentioned in these 50 years period.

In the last 50 years, thousands of words which can't be backed up with historical evidence have been written about Benin/Ife relationship compared to nothing written in the previous 400 years.[/s]

There were no mention of Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan in the eyewitness documented Benin history between 1400s to 1800s.

Truthvalue:
[s]Let me remind everybody a few facts: Benin city was burnt to the ground by the british, ife was not. Yet, the british had to build ife around 1912. So this brings the following questions:
1)what did ife look like before being built by the british
2) why build something which was not destroyed.
3) the current palace of the oni of ifa was built in the 1930's, yet the former was never destroyed by the british, so why build a new palace, was there any one prior to the one built in the 1930's or was it just a shrine ?[/s]

TAO11:
Actually, your question is retarded — and it exposes you to be dumber than you actually appear. See why below:

First of all, Benin City wasn’t burnt to the ground during the punishment. The palace & some buildings were burnt — not the whole place.

Moving on from that, you disgraced yourself again as always when you thought Ife wasn’t destroyed.

Even the most retarded and autistic of my Edo slaves know that Ife and some Yoruba cities were literally in ruins by the end of the 1800s — courtesy of the civil wars of the Yorubas.

As ravaged as it is, the ruins of the palace (long after the civil war) was described (by a German ethnologist who visited the site in the early 1900s) in glorious and illustrious terms. See some examples below:

(1) “A minute or two after twelve midday the monumental ruins of the Ooni’s “palace” met our gaze. We stood before the portal of the castle in the middle of an enormous square. I sent Bida in to announce us, waited for some time, made my horse climb the high flight of steps and rode through the delicately-carved door of the entrance, across the courtyard and through the dilapidated colonnades with my companions. It was like an enchanted castle. It was so large and noble in design, so superbly pure despite its broken lines, its mouldering to decay and the sordid exterior it now presents. We did not meet a single soul. At last we came to where there were some people, and there, clad in a gorgeous robe of bright green silk, a magnificent tiara on his brow, and shaded by a huge silken canopy, the Oni, the head of the Holy City of Ife’s hierarchy, advanced to meet us with a great crowd.”

~ Leo Frobenius, “Voice of Africa,” (1913), p.77.


(2) “The Palace of the Oni, whose massive walls meet the eye from whatever quarter one approaches it, is that which most impress everyone who visits the Ilifé of to-day. Its front, especially, with the fine open square on which it stands, makes an imposing effect in spite of all its ruin. The masonry of the façade is still in fair condition, although it is denuded and devoid of interest. The walls are more mighty, over a yard broad at the base and some eighteen feet high.”

~ Leo Frobenius, “Voice of Africa,” (1913), p.276.

(3) “Poor Oni! Poor Palace! How are the mighty fallen! Once a glorious edifice here reared itself aloft, built of bricks well burnt, brilliant with colored tiles and sundry other ornament! Here on this very spot, the horses stamped their hoofs; here the breath of life exhaled from many a human victim offered up, while this strange country’s high priests chanted prayers.”

~ Leo Frobenius, “Voice of Africa,” (1913), p.277.

You are a disgrace only to yourself, your family & your friends.

Peace!

gregyboy:
[s]What year was this quote made.... And why was there so many pity on the palace looks than praises...[/s].

TAO11:
Did your Oba truly ban the use of brain?

Now I’m getting very curious.

gregyboy:



What year was this quote made.... And why was there so many pity on the palace looks than praises....

Truthvalue:


I defer to you and Samuk to reply the transgender, I just can't reply a person that illogical.

1) leo frobenuis said ife were Atlantis
2) leo frobenius was trying to "sell" his "discoveries" in ife a and get fame and funds by making all sorts of fantastic claims about ife.
3) weird enough, ife was colonized before 1897, yet no talk by the british about a magnificent ife palace, no drawing of it, no eyewitness document at all, no picture... Instead the british started building ife up in 1912, and magically one year later, the so called magnificent palace of the oni of ifa is discovered by frobenuis and is seen by him and only him in the entire world, just like atlantis ife as well.

4) and ofcourse the document is not provided by the transgrnder, which makes any talk about this a talk in a void.

TAO11:
Did your Oba truly ban the use of brain?

Now I’m getting very curious.

Truthvalue:
[s]I defer to you and Samuk to reply the transgender, I just can't reply a person that illogical.

1) leo frobenuis said ife were Atlantis[/s]

[s]2) leo frobenius was trying to "sell" his "discoveries" in ife a and get fame and funds by making all sorts of fantastic claims about ife.[/s]

[s]3) weird enough, ife was colonized before 1897, yet no talk by the british about a magnificent ife palace, no drawing of it, no eyewitness document at all, no picture.[/s]

[s]Instead the british started building ife up in 1912, and magically one year later, the so called magnificent palace of the oni of ifa is discovered by frobenuis and is seen by him and only him in the entire world, just like atlantis ife as well.[/s]

[s]4) and ofcourse the document is not provided by the transgrnder, which makes any talk about this a talk in a void.[/s]

Truthvalue:
[s]Let me remind everybody a few facts: Benin city was burnt to the ground by the british, ife was not. Yet, the british had to build ife around 1912. So this brings the following questions:
1)what did ife look like before being built by the british
2) why build something which was not destroyed.
3) the current palace of the oni of ifa was built in the 1930's, yet the former was never destroyed by the british, so why build a new palace, was there any one prior to the one built in the 1930's or was it just a shrine ?[/s]

Stoplying:
People, when you make a claim, please follow suit with its proof. Thank you.

macof:


An educated person doesn't need to declare he is educated with each post.
Educated buffoon who can't spell "renowned"
But writes "reknown"

Your stupid expatiation is just that - stupid - as a result of your lack of proper education.
Let me embarrass you..
Why don't you give the number of RETURNEES "dumped" on our shores - as you say it and how they outnumbered everyone else

macof:


Where is the proof of your claims that yoruba people only existed after the overwhelming number of brazilian slaves dumped on the shores



You have been running away like the bald chicken that you are. Your ancestors must be ashamed

Truthvalue:
[s] s]You ask questions which are either due to your lack of comprehension or which have been answered before you asked the questions:

All the answers you need are here


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIporKrPsbU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2hU-ibkPfg

Also, for your information, I never claimed to know the exact number of yoruba slave ancestors which were dumped on our shores, I only said they were massive enough for all yoruba to descend from them. If you want the exact number which is your question, then you need to do the research by yourself because I don't work for you.

You keep calling me names whereas I have not called you any names, is this due to your jealousy of my ancestry, my education, my job, my money, my nationality, my city of residence ? Or is it your way of trying to mask your extremely low self-esteem ?

I also didn't claim that "yoruba didn't exist before the slaves were dumped on our shores", I would need to verify the dates in order to come to a conclusion on that sentence.
As I said: yoruba of today are from several unrelated groups of people: dahomians, oyo, brazilian slaves, and some other groups.

You need to work on your comprehension skills.[/s]

Truthvalue:


[s]1)Since you know "logic" according to you, give me the first order definition of an equation.
Also give me the first order definition of the notion of polynomial[/s].

Truthvalue:

2)Logics is a bunch of branches of mathematics which even most mathematicians don't know that well or don't know at all: category theory, set theory, model theory, complexity, Peano-arithmetics, calculability...

Truthvalue:

3) Also, it is called "logics" not "logic". And your [s]jss1 teacher who thought you doesn't know it at all. You lack sufficient education to know that you don't know, that is why half-educated people are said to be worse than illiterate, you have the illusion of knowing whereas you don't know at all.[/s]

Truthvalue:

4) Let 0 be the empty set, prove that for every ordinal n, 0+n = n.

Truthvalue:

[s]5) You guys need to stop being deluded, know your limits. (If it has anything to do with education, you best believe I master it much better than you do, and in this case, I can teach your teacher and his teacher and his teacher...)[/s]

Truthvalue:

[s]
7) so mr "logics is for jss1" where have you been ? I gave you obvious questions about logics and you still haven't replied. I thought you said logics were obvious and everybody knew logics as from jss1[/s] ?

Truthvalue:


You ask questions which are either due to your lack of comprehension or which have been answered before you asked the questions:

All the answers you need are here


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llporKrPsbU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2hU-ibkPfg

Also, for your information, I never claimed to know the exact number of yoruba slave ancestors which were dumped on our shores, I only said they were massive enough for all yoruba to descend from them. If you want the exact number which is your question, then you need to do the research by yourself because I don't work for you.

You keep calling me names whereas I have not called you any names, is this due to your jealousy of my ancestry, my education, my job, my money, my nationality, my city of residence ? Or is it your way of trying to mask your extremely low self-esteem ?

I also didn't claim that "yoruba didn't exist before the slaves were dumped on our shores", I would need to verify the dates in order to come to a conclusion on that sentence.
As I said: yoruba of today are from several unrelated groups of people: dahomians, oyo, brazilian slaves, and some other groups.

You need to work on your comprehension skills.

Truthbeatslies:


Also, nobody says those who call themselves yoruba today don't have ancestors. That would be silly, your deliberate lack of comprehension is legendary. What is being proven is that those who call themselves yoruba today are a mixture of several unrelated peoples: dahomians, oyo, brazilian slaves and some other peoples. Given the number of slaves who were dumped on our shores by the europeans, it is fair to say all yoruba descend from slaves. Perhaps there is a small percentage which doesn't.

macof:


This is your claim: that you have proven all yorubas are descendants of brazilian slaves. And you keep showing those videos made by one unknown individual as the proof.

See also the screenshot below of what the video is actually saying : which is that the yoruba did not exist until the 19th century
Or you are so stupid that you don't comprehend the video you are spamming the whole culture section with?

macof:


This is your claim: that you have proven all yorubas are descendants of brazilian slaves. And you keep showing those videos made by one unknown individual as the proof.

See also the screenshot below of what the video is actually saying : which is that the yoruba did not exist until the 19th century
Or you are so stupid that you don't comprehend the video you are spamming the whole culture section with?



If you weren't born to be a dullard you would have known that to claim a people numbering over 50 million in West Africa descend from Brazilian returnees of the 19th century, there must be

1. Millions of Brazilian settlers
2. The Brazilians would have outnumbered those they met

macof:


Calling me uneducated, liar and mentally ill is not name calling?? I can see all the names I thought you call people are actually self descriptions