Brandonx:
Why would I kneel before a throne?

As a grand son of an Oba, I have come to understand one thing, power belong to God!


The rulers are 'appointed' by God to maintain law & order in the affairs of men.

Nisiw366:

At least I have B.eng . can you even pass waec with your dull brain

dullard.. I am a first class graduate of mechanical engineering... We nor be mate

You see, there is actually nothing wrong with having more than one moniker in case one gets banned.

What is wrong, instead, is to dissociate yourself from your own monikers like it’s a plague. Lol.

I once called you out for your childish acts with your alternative monikers. You feigned dumb and denied.

Now see your moniker here as well as the attachment below. Lol.

In any case, your comment below which you’d copied
from the other thread (under your moniker UGBE634) has been debunked at that thread.

I will debunk it here as well as shown below.

OLOKUN175:
Your sister has extended her claim to the Ogisos.When you seem successful with one claim with one or two binis agreeing with you no matter how absurd it may seem you move on to the next claim

Focusing on the word claim, could you point out one of the points I’ve educated you on which is a mere claim of mine rather than the submission of historical scholarship on the basis on extant, classical received Benin traditions from Benin?

After that, do the same check for your submissions and revert here to tell us what you find—let me know who is clinging to a personal wishful thinking & sourceless latter-day poor fraudulent revision.

Why is the Ogiso Edo and not Ife.

Lol. First of all, “ogiso” is not a given/personal name.

Rather, it is the Edo word for the office held by these monarchs who first ruled the Edos.

The discussion here is NOT about the word with which the autochthonous people (the Binis) described that office in their own language.

Neither is the discussion here about the mythologies woven around the holders of the office (at least the 1st of them) by the Bini people perhaps due to their leadership shrewdness — e.g., Sky descent.

Rather, this discussion is about the place from where the initiative for that monarchy was born/despatched.

The earliest Benin traditions (undisputed by modern historical scrutiny) answers that the place is IFE.

———————
Now to the name itself, having clarified that the Edos may call such temporary representatives by any title they wish in their language; or weave any mythology they wish around them:

In the worldview of the Yorubas, a person assigned to carry out tasks in a foreign land (in the interest of the Ife-Yoruba court or any Yoruba court for that matter) is simply a “chief” (i.e. olóyè/onóyè) of the court.

The title applied by the native Edos to these Yorubas envoys (the first and by extension all three of them) who have been assigned the task of introducing some monarchy form to the natives is ogiso.

This word comes from a phrase which itself is rooted in two basic words. One of these two Edo words viz. ogie is recognizably cognate with Yoruba, Igbo, etc.

The second of these two words is iso which unlike th first may have evolved way, way earlier from a basic common etymon in the proto-YEAI cluster; or perhaps even from the proto-Benue-Kwa cluster.

It is important to add that this word developed into a mythical attribute from a praise attribute; just as the Omonoba Akenzua II (reign: 1933 - 1978) also has the praise name: “Akenzua n-iso n-orhọ”.

The Edo word “ogie”, as noted above, is cognate with some other words in the proto-YEAI language cluster.

In other words, it evolved (as others) from a common etymon in that cluster. Some of the cognates in their respective languages are:

Oche (Idoma), Orodje (Urhobo/Isoko) Onóyè (Yoruba), Ovie (Urhobo/Isoko), Ogie (Edo), Oje (Esan), Eje (Proto-Igboid), Eze (Modern Igbo).

It is noteworthy to state that these words technically speaking is not strictly equivalent to the word “king”, although it has evolved in modern times to mean one and the same thing.

For a fact, these words originally signifies the following linguistically:

“The Honorable”, “Office-Holder”, “Ruler”, “Chief”, etc.

From the standpoint of historical studies/research as well, kingship (in its actual sense) has not developed in the Edo forest prior to/during the Ogiso period.

As such, the pre-existing Edo word, “ogie”, could not have had a meaning equivalent to such concept. This is not to say some form of political organization would not have been in existence amongst them.

These and several other evidences must in fact have informed Bondarenko’s consistent clarification of the Ogisos as no monarchs in the strict sense of the word, but actually some supreme supra-chiefdom rulers.

1. Because there are several folklores concerning the Ogisos in Ugo about Peace, honesty, natural Justice,and so on and not one about Ife.

2.There are descendants of Ogiso in Benin and not Ife, They are one of the 74 families in Benin, they are pure Edos by Blood and they trace their Origin to Ugo and not Ife.

3. The Oba placed himself as a continuation of the Ogisos so as to pass the Message to the Binis or Edos that he is pure Edo by Blood in other to Garner and gather their support against the Ogieamien who gives them tough time at every ascension with the claim that they are foreigners.

4. To discontinue his relationship with the yorubas, because he knows by saying he is a continuation of the Ogiso, he would alter his link with Yoruba and Ife after the bad bromance the father had with western region before 1963 which he was already a grown man and an adult with Education to see these things.
We can see from the following point that Oba Eredieuwa is aware that the Ogiso is stuck in Antiquity and the story Egharevba collated from his father's court is not really a testament of the realities on ground.

1. You’ve been confidently chatting sh*t all along.

First of all, if by “Ugo” you’re trying desperately to give the impression that the Ogiso monarch was first despatched to Benin town from Ugo, then you lie as there is no objective reference for that anywhere. Not even the recent fraudulent revisions say that.

But if by “Ugo”, you mean that the original site of the Ogisos’ court is situated within Ugo (rather than within Benin town itself), then you lie again — even though it makes no difference to the point my point wherever they ruled from.

The late Dr. R. E. Bradbury (who during his days was the outstanding authority on Benin and the Edo speaking peoples — with years of intensive anthropological field work in Benin, and contributing a volume on the Benin Kingdom to the Ethnographic survey of Africa) already notes in his 1957 publication
that the original site of the Ogiso court was within the present limit of Benin “town”.

All in all, the earliest Benin traditions (undisputed by modern historical scrutiny) notes that the first ‘Benin’ monarchs who came to be mythologized as Ogiso are actually emissaries from Ife (the first 3 of them) prior to when the Binis continued the political organization by themselves also as a non-dynastic “monarchy”. See: Egharevba (1936) p.7; Bondarenko & Roese (2001), p.10; Bondarenko & Roese (2015), p.54.

2. Could you explain how the descendants of the Bini Ogisos should have been in Ife (and not Benin) based off of the fact that the system was launched to Benin from there?

Moreover, you bungled again with your “Ugo” fraud. The Ogiso ‘dynasty’ (so-called) was not a dynasty in the sense of the word. In other word, it was never a father to son affair. You never knew this. ~ See: Ibid.

Moreover, the Ife Yoruba-line is said to have ended at the time of the third of them at a time when Ife was convinced that the autochthonous people (the Binis) are now capable of running such system effectively by themselves. I have cited the evidence for this.

By the way, I noticed you never cited a single material, not even a toilet roll. You mean we must agree with anything you type because your moniker is UGBE? LMAO!

3. Of course, I am aware that Omonoba Erediauwa (in whose time Edo history went fraudulent) was trying to miraculously convert himself to patrilineal Bini by coming up with the fraud that Oranmiyan is descended from Ogiso Owodo.

I am aware that he is patrilineally Yoruba. I am aware that he was just being fraudulent. I have repeated this with historical evidence since ‘forever’. You’re not the first to tell me that.

However, no one historian ever said that Owodo is an Ife-Yoruba man — literally no historian said that.

Instead, what historians find on the basis of the early Benin traditions is that:

The first chief (mythologized as “ogiso” by the natives) was sent from Ife. The third was the last in the Ife line. The Edo continued the system themselves. The system was not a father to son affair.

4. On the basis of the foregoing point 3 your logic that the Ogiso was initiated by the Edo is embarrassingly flawed.

The historical sources are clear, the monarchy began as a internal Edo affair only on the fourth reign.

As such, Erediauwa’s fraud is consistent while also not disrupting a thing from the early Benin traditions that Ife is the home of only the first 3 of the “Honorables”.

In other words, Ife is the origin of the system even as per the Benin traditions which has remained logical in the light of thorough scrutiny by the historians.

Peace!

[s]Also on the bini Edo tale
1. Bini is the same thing as Edo, It is like my name is Osato and you named me Ola and I became popular with it, mixed blood ke, Urine blood ni.but on a second thought the name Bini would tilt to two sources more than the Ile Ibinu story
1.the itsekiris who claimed they named Bini Ubini and they told the Portuguese that there is a kingdom a powerful kingdom inside known as Ubini
2. The name Benyn means Kindness in Portuguese language. Some sources said that the name was given to the Binis by the Portuguese after the hospitality they received from the Binis.
Peace!.[/s]

What a lying d!ckhead!?

(1) No where did the Itsekiris claim that they named the Binis or their land. Absolutely no where. Wait, do you have any clue what it means to name sb or sth?

(2) Oluwa oo, I though have seen it all. Anyways to educate folks (from you Bini clowns misinformation), Benyn doesn’t mean jack in Portuguese.

“Sources”? Do you have any clue what sources mean??

Anyways, what sOuRcEs said that the Bini were nAmEd by the Portuguese? We’re waiting. Lol.

Cc: Gbajure.

gregyboy:
[s]Unless fairytale were trueOromi Yan was an idol worshiped in oyoSamuel Johnson made him a living entity im his book he wrote in 1897.....So how come an idol came to benin... Read my screenshot and know abundance peace[/s]

What version of crap did you heap here?
——————
Your Screenshot:
Your screenshot is an opinion of a certain Ryder from the year 1965.

Guess what has happened between 1965 and 2021 in the field of historical scholarship of African history.

The field of historical scholarship of African history has unanimously debunked that opinion from Ryder.

See for example:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A summary of this unanimous conclusion of scholars is aptly put in a 2016 publication as attached below in the 2nd screenshot below:

Cheers!
Cc: Nisiw366, Ademola47

gregyboy:
[s]Read your history and then read my screenshot[/s]

Akùrì, refer to following comment for a dumbed down explanation of your screenshot which you clearly have no clue on:
——————
The fact you truly believe that this screenshot refutes anything says it all about your grasp of English.

To help your life, I will dumb-down the content:

(A) The general Yoruba tradition is that they and their kings trace back to king Oduduwa of Ife.

(B) The exact words “the heritage of Oduduwa” is not necessarily the same precise wording used by them

However, their wordings of the traditions is obviously to the same effect.

(C) There is at least one of these kingdoms (i.e. Oyo) which has something quite strange to say.

(D) This strange claim is found by this scholar (whose screenshot you attached) to be a latter claim which Oyo itself didn’t have/belief ab-initio.

(E) This scholar found that Oyo (being imperial later) then came up with this for propaganda of superiority over its father, the Ooni.

Having dumbed-down your own screenshot for you, I am aware that the whole of points (C), (D), and (E) may not be very obvious to you from the screenshot.

As such, I will cite the specific passages from the same material where Prof. R.C.C. Law made it clear.

R.C.C. Law writes, while debunking the spurious & strange one-off accounts which intends to challenge the Ooni’s superiority as follows:

“Certain traditions relating to the ancestry of the Oni of Ife appear to have been devised specifically in order to counter the Oni's very plausible claim to paramount status. ... This denial of true royal ancestry to the Oni of Ife offered an opportunity for other kings to claim for themselves primacy of status among the descendants of Oduduwa.”

~ Page 212.

Moreover, after combing through the evidences, R. C. C. Law then summarizes his find on the last page as follows:

“SUMMARY
…The article considers the political implications of the Yoruba traditions of origin, and seeks to relate the existence of certain variants of the tradition to the use of it for purposes of political propaganda. In particular, it is suggested that the tradition was manipulated and modified in an attempt to support the claims to paramountcy of the king of Oyo, when this kingdom became the most powerful state in the Yoruba area during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries…”.

~ Page 224.

Cc: Ademola47, Nisiw366.

OLOKUN175:
[s]Oduduwa is a myth, the Oba certainly do have something to do with Yoruba but the Oduduwa and Ife tale is horsepile of Bullshit[/s]

No wonder you didn’t write this crap with your UGBE634 moniker.

You knew well there is zero evidence for what you’re about to write — and that what exists, instead, are historical evidence to the contrary of what you wish to peddle.

Lol.
Cc: Ademola47

gregyboy:
[s]The first history of Oduduwa ever told by yorubas to europeans in 1894Oduduwa was a female goddess
[/s]

I ask again, what version of crap is this?
——————

Anyways, the refutation of the comments you wove around your first screenshot is as shown below:

(1) First of all, it is clear from my comment that the specific point I made is about a deity Oduduwa — not the historical personage who himself was deified.

(2) The word “deified”, by the way, refers to the idea of elevating a human to the status of a deity usually after such person has passed on.

In such cases, the human-gender doesn’t necessarily determine the deity-gender.

In other words, a historical man may be admitted into a pantheon as a male deity, or a female deity, or as both.

In Benin kingdom for example, despite the historical Oduduwa being recognized (even there) as a man, he is deified as both a male-deity & a female-deity.

Olokun is a woman historically, yet she is deified both as a male-deity and as a female-deity, in Yorubaland.

(3) Your screenshot (which reference I provided) is on a deity Oduduwa, in the specific context of religion.

The title of the book makes it clear that it is not about history. It is not a history book at all in the first place.

Moreover, the chapter’s title also makes it specifically clear that it is about divinities not the actual humans themselves who were deified. The chapter’s title reads as “CHIEF GODS”.

As such, the reference I gave to a non-history book is in agreement with the point I was making.

And the point I was making on that thread, quoting word-for-word, is that:

“And there are books on the Yoruba people’s religion, etc. (published before Johnson’s history) which shows the name Oduduwa as one of these heavenly deities. See A.B. Ellis (1894).”

(4) And why did this issue of deities come up in the first place?

It came up because Crowther didn’t write about Ife’s history — being that he is a linguist and as such is concerned with grammar books, etc. — but at times devotes very minuscule pages to accounts of some stories/histories in the introductory remarks.

In one of his introductory remarks, he touched on the story of creation at Ife, which features heavenly beings — not historical beings — whose names differ one version of the story to another.

It was in this context (i.e. the context of deities) that I cited Oturupon-Wonifa as well as A.B. Ellis (1894) for the names Oduduwa, et al. as deities featuring in the story about Yoruba deities or heavenly beings.

(5) Johnson’s later work, on the other hand, is a work on history (a comprehensive one at that), and as such covers the history of the Yorubas from the beginning to the king-Oduduwa period and beyond to the 1800s.

(6) In sum, the issue of omission does not come up in the case of Crowther because his grammar work (with some accounts) is not intended to (and did not) cover all the way up to the king-Oduduwa period.

Similarly, A. B. Ellis’ work (which focuses on religion, etc.) is obviously not a history book, and as such is not supposed to (and did not) cover anything about king Oduduwa.

The specific mention of Odua in this work was clearly shown under the chapter entitled “CHIEF GODS”.

In other words, a deity Odua (whose gender doesn’t necessarily follow that of the actual human who was deified) is the only relevant point of reference as far as this non-history book is concerned.

In recognition of this unique gender-phenomenon in the deification of Yoruba personages, R. F. Burton in his 1863 publication writes in the * footnote of page 186 as follows:

“The fact that this deity is male, female, and hermaphrodite, is a fair specimen of pagan vagueness.”

Moreover, I have also alluded already to the kingdom of Benin where king-Oduduwa is of course known to have been a man, but is in the same breath deified as both a male deity, and a female deity.
——————-


The refutation of your second screenshot is as shown below:

The opinion expressed in your 3rd screenshot is that of a certain Ryder from the year 1965.

Guess what has happened between 1965 and 2021 in the field of historical scholarship of African history.

The field of historical scholarship of African history has unanimously debunked that opinion from Ryder.

See for example:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A summary of this unanimous conclusion of scholars is aptly put in a 2016 publication as attached below in the first screenshot below.

[s]Benin people adopted the story of Oduduwa for political and cultural unification wirh yorubas after amalgamation 1915

Prior to then there was nothing like Oduduwa tales in benin history[/s]

The second screenshot attached below shows your kings with pure Yoruba titles, viz.

Ọba, Àdìmílà, Õṣà’Kejì; as well a link between your kings and Odùduwà.

NB: This was published in the year 1906 by R. E. Dennett following years of field work in Benin and among the Kongos.

So, now that your proposition of 1914/1915 has failed embarrassingly, I hereby ask that you should move your date farther back — and don’t forget to tell us the reason behind whatever new date you come up with.

Peace!

Cc: Ademola47, Nisiw366, OLOKUN175

An Interesting Post:
Lieutenant John King, R.N. who visited the Benin area sometimes between 1815 and 1820 has the following to say about the actual crown (i.e. the primary/initial crown) of the Itsekiri nation:

“At Warri "the actual crown of the sovereign is a sort of large cap in the shape of a cone three feet high, covered with coral beads and with a couple of birds' heads on top" (King).”.

~ John King, c.1817, cited in H. L. Roth, Great Benin: Its Customs, Arts, and Horrors, (1903), p.27, note 1.

This description of the primary Itsekiri crown (from J. King’s eyewitness observation) matches nothing else but the signature Yoruba crowns popularly known as: Adé-Ńlá which is said by the Yoruba kingdoms holding them to be the actual crown (design) with which the Ife princes originally left Ife to establish their own respective kingdom.

These Ade-Nla crowns are usually adorned only once during sacred installation rites by the kingdoms who hold such jewels. An example of what Ade-Nla crowns look like is as attached below.


The logical implication of the foregoing information is that this primary (or “actual”) crown of the Itsekiris is the actual crown (among his royal share) with which Ginuwa left the Benin palace in the mid/late-1400.

It then follows logically that the Benin palace itself is a Yoruba place (in a foreign land) as have been noted by the early received Benin traditions as well as the Yoruba traditions which notes that Ade-Nla was given to the princes from IFE as a part of their royal gifts.

This explains, more clearly, why his (Ginuwa’s) group was accepted by the autochthonous group of the land without any resistance — i.e. an Ade-Nla crown which established his legitimacy as a “son” of Oodua.

History proves itself again for the umpteenth time.

Cc: Ademola47, Nisiw366, gomojam, r4bbit

TAO12:
An Interesting Post:
Lieutenant John King, R.N. who visited the Benin area sometimes between 1815 and 1820 has the following to say about the actual crown (i.e. the primary/initial crown) of the Itsekiri nation:

“At Warri "the actual crown of the sovereign is a sort of large cap in the shape of a cone three feet high, covered with coral beads and with a couple of birds' heads on top" (King).”.

~ John King, c.1817, cited in H. L. Roth, Great Benin: Its Customs, Arts, and Horrors, (1903), p.27, note 1.

This description of the primary Itsekiri crown (from J. King’s eyewitness observation) matches nothing else but the signature Yoruba crowns popular known as: Adé-Ńlá which is said by the Yoruba kingdoms holding them to be the actual crown (design) with which the Ife princes originally left Ife to establish their own respective kingdom.

These Ade-Nla crowns are usually adorned only once during sacred installation rites by the kingdoms who hold such jewels. An example of what Ade-Nla crowns look like is as attached below.


The logical implication of the foregoing information is that this primary (or “actual”) crown of the Itsekiris is the actual crown (among his royal share) with which Ginuwa left the Benin palace in the mid/late-1400.

It then follows logically that the Benin palace itself is a Yoruba place (in a foreign land) as have been noted by the early received Benin traditions as well as the Yoruba traditions which notes that Ade-Nla was given to the Ife princes as a part of their royal gifts.

This explains, more clearly, why his (Ginuwa’s) group was accepted by the autochthonous group of the land without any resistance — i.e. an Ade-Nla crown which established his legitimacy as a “son” of Oodua.

History proves itself again for the umpteenth time.

Cc: Ademola47, Nisiw366, gomojam, r4bbit

Honestly, I love your detailed explanation.
Thumbs up!

theInterpreter:
even awujale of Ijebu even alake of Abeokuta
Oba of benin's shine was in the past

Except that:

He actually has no such “shine” (to the extent often painted by his Nairaland subjects) even in the past.

See the link below for details:

https://www.nairaland.com/6697675/power-oba-benin-wield-past/1#105140109

Make sure to read it to correct misinformation.

Cheers!

Ademola47:


Are you saying Oba of Benin ranks above the likes of Ooni of Ife, Alaafin of Oyo etc?

I doubt that.

Oduduwa, their historical father gave birth to seven children. During his death time, all his children were not home-based. He however had an aide who, though wasn't his biological child, knew about his power source and top secrets. The 'aide' afterwards was made to occupy the ancestral seat (reagent) and became pioneer Ooni of Ife. His first biological son, the pioneer Alaafin of Oyo believes he is superior. The superiority tussles is the feud often passed down to new Alaafin and Ooni. Luckily, the present Ooni accepted Alaafin as his father for peace to reign, basically due to age difference.

Politically, they are all first-class monarchs? Oba of Benin is not the first child or 'reagent'. He's just one of his children.

So on what basis is Oba of Benin the greatest?

Well explained, I now understand better sir.

Thank you sir

YouandiAllofus:


I trust you know the answer to that which you seek...

Honestly I don't .
Kindly list them . We are all here to learn!