I am reopening this thread because there is still no answer and I need to know I have read on Jstor and it doesn't seem to be ife the present of such a cross doesn't show up in Ife artefacts so i'm starting to see a potential Igbo or Nupe origin for the Ogane please don't turn this into a tribalist thread

1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7

Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that [b]to the east of Beny at twenty moons' journey which according to their account, and the short journeys they make, would be about two hundred and fifty of our leauges there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Beny he was held in as great veneration as is the Supreme Pontif with us. In accordance with a very ancient custom, the king of Beny, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to him with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor he has succeeded to the kingdom of Beny, and to request confirmation. To signify his assent, the prince Ogané sends the king a staff and a headpiece of shining brass, fashioned like a Spanish helmet, in place of a crown and sceptre. He also sends a cross, likewise of brass, to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the Knights of the Order of Saint John. Without these emblems the people do not recognize him as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king. All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogané, he never sees the prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as though it were a sacred relic.[/b] As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey the ambassador receives a small cross, similar to that sent to the king, which is thrown round his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes, and privileged in his native country, as the Knights are with us.

Can you share a link to the full story? I haven't read anything similar before

Blakjewelry:
Can you share a link to the full story? I haven't read anything similar before

What you see there is basically as much as I know there's a ruler 250 leagues east of Benin who is the most powerful in the Guinea whether it's a priest or an actual king is unknown or whether it is a misunderstanding and the Oba was saying their God lies in the east as in where the sun rises or whether the Oba meant West but instead said east because of some religious belief is all unknown till today nobody knows who or where the Oghane is and there is still little physical evidence of Brass Crosses anywhere in Nigeria but i'm sure someone somewhere will soon find a clue to this query

Abohboy:


What you see there is basically as much as I know there's a ruler 250 leagues east of Benin who is the most powerful in the Guinea whether it's a priest or an actual king is unknown or whether it is a misunderstanding and the Oba was saying their God lies in the east as in where the sun rises or whether the Oba meant West but instead said east because of some religious belief is all unknown till today nobody knows who or where the Oghane is and there is still little physical evidence of Brass Crosses anywhere in Nigeria but i'm sure someone somewhere will soon find a clue to this query

250 league is Dutch/German league which is about 900 miles.

The location is east

The travelling time is 20 moons or 20 months (almost 2 years journey)

If this location existed, it would have certainly been outside Nigeria.

Abohboy:


What you see there is basically as much as I know there's a ruler 250 leagues east of Benin who is the most powerful in the Guinea whether it's a priest or an actual king is unknown or whether it is a misunderstanding and the Oba was saying their God lies in the east as in where the sun rises or whether the Oba meant West but instead said east because of some religious belief is all unknown till today nobody knows who or where the Oghane is and there is still little physical evidence of Brass Crosses anywhere in Nigeria but i'm sure someone somewhere will soon find a clue to this query

Well from the the write up I figured it will have to do with religious head because they have been so powerful in time immemorial, take a look at Samuel and Saul, similar thing did happened in ancient Egyptian. In those days the religious body even have their own community for the priest and other religious office holder and they have so much power like the king since the people believes they are mouthpiece of the gods. They are even known to detrone kings since once they denounce you, it simply means you have been rejected by God

samuk:


250 league is Dutch/German league which is about 900 miles.

The location is east

The travelling time is 20 moons or 20 months (almost 2 years journey)

If this location existed, it would have certainly been outside Nigeria.

So likely in Cameroon then? But where in Cameroon is significant and had links to Nigeria?

Abohboy:
I am reopening this thread because there is still no answer and I need to know I have read on Jstor and it doesn't seem to be ife the present of such a cross doesn't show up in Ife artefacts so i'm starting to see a potential Igbo or Nupe origin for the Ogane please don't turn this into a tribalist thread

1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7

Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that [b]to the east of Beny at twenty moons' journey which according to their account, and the short journeys they make, would be about two hundred and fifty of our leauges there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Beny he was held in as great veneration as is the Supreme Pontif with us. In accordance with a very ancient custom, the king of Beny, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to him with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor he has succeeded to the kingdom of Beny, and to request confirmation. To signify his assent, the prince Ogané sends the king a staff and a headpiece of shining brass, fashioned like a Spanish helmet, in place of a crown and sceptre. He also sends a cross, likewise of brass, to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the Knights of the Order of Saint John. Without these emblems the people do not recognize him as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king. All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogané, he never sees the prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as though it were a sacred relic.[/b] As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey the ambassador receives a small cross, similar to that sent to the king, which is thrown round his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes, and privileged in his native country, as the Knights are with us.

That's what you get when you rely too much on European accounts. I know Bini people here who act as if anything the Europeans wrote is exactly as is written and what they didn't write did not exist.

The two biggest clues is that
1. this ruler is referred to as if the Oba of Benin pays him homage, not necessarily a subject but a figure that he seeks blessing from as one who even the writer imagines to be the most powerful ruler in that part of the world.
The only person that would be in such position is the Ooni.. Forget modern Nigerian ethnopolitics, oba of Benin and Ooni of Ife used to be very close

2. Ogane seems to be a Portuguese corruption of Oghene. Oghene which is in turn a Bini corruption of Oghone - Southeast Yoruba dialect of Owoni or Ooni

Regarding the word “east”, read the comment below.

Abohboy:
I am reopening this thread because there is still no answer and I need to know I have read on Jstor and it doesn't seem to be ife the present of such a cross doesn't show up in Ife artefacts so i'm starting to see a potential Igbo or Nupe origin for the Ogane please don't turn this into a tribalist thread

1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7

Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that to the east of Beny ••• there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. •••

Make Sure to Read This:

Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.

This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.

In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language].

The symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample.

This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife.

In addition to this significant fact, the debate over the word “east” was subsequently quelled by the fact that from Atakpame (in present-day Togo) to the kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria), from Èkó (next to the Atlantic Ocean) to Ọ̀yọ́-Ilé (not far from the Niger River) Ife is known by the interesting epithet: Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá — i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”.

For some written references to the widespread usage of this epithet (in reference to Ife) among the natives of this region of West Africa, please refer to:

(A) Rev. D. Hinderer, “Diary Impression,” June 4, 1851, Ibadan, C.M.S.

(B) R. Horton (1979), p. 85., citing B. Maupoil (1943), A. Akinjogbin (1967:41-43), R. Smith (1969:31), as well as A. Obayemi (1976:206).

This reverential (rather than literal) epithet of Ife informed the literalist Europeans’ writings whose source(s) are Benin spokespersons of their king.

Hence the appearance of the word “east” in the early European writings in reference to the kingdom of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni (who is transliterated in the early writings as “Hooguanee”, “Ogané”, etc.).

Side Note: Binis, till today, still sometimes refer to the Ooni as Oghene. Refer to the entry “ɔɣɛnɛ” (i.e. “ọghẹnẹ”) in Hans Melzian’s “A Concise Dictionary of the Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” where its second definition is given as: “Bini name for the ↄni at Ile Ife”

Moreover, another piece of historical evidence which quelled the academic debate on the word “east” (as is seen in the early writings in reference to this overlord) are early maps.

There are maps (e.g. from the early 1500s) which show the phrase Dominion of the Orguene annotated across the western half of today’s Nigeria.

These historical information leaves anyone (not only the historians) with the only logical conclusion that the appearance of the word “east” in those early writings is of course not literal.

—————
APPENDIX:

Apart from early writings, there are other types of historical evidence which also establish clearly that there exist a classic (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

These other type of historical evidence which I come to here are classical artifacts from the hard science of archaeology. One crucial examples in this regard is discussed below.

The artifact shown in this link is the image of an Ooni of Ife. ~ S. P. Blier, “Art in Ancient Ife,” 2012, Figure 17.

The Ife naturalism of this artifact, its facial striations, as well as its classical Ife ceremonial costume and the pair of chest ornament help art historians (as well as Benin chroniclers alike) with identifying this image as an Ooni of Ife.

What is very, very crucial here is that this artifact was found in the archaeological deposits of Benin. To be more precise, it was excavated from the royal palace of Benin kingdom.

Furthermore, the production date of this artifact has now been established by science. This artifact is dated, by thermoluminescence technique, to the year 1420 [± 60 years].

~ Calvocoressi & David, “A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa,” 1979, p. 19.

For more pictorial angles (and details) regarding this particular artifact, please refer to:

(A) W. Fagg, “A Bronze Figure in Ife Style at Benin,” British Museum, June 1950, Plate Fa, Fb, Fc

(B) F. Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture,” McGraw-Hill, 1967, Figure 89.

(C) C. Adepegba, “The Descent from Oduduwa,” 1986, Plate 4.

In other words, a more-than 500-year-old ‘bronze’ cast of an Ooni Ife was discovered in the (archaeological deposits of the) palace of Benin kingdom.

In conclusion, it thus becomes clear that there exists a classical (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

Again, this conclusion which I have inevitably reached is not mine. This is simply the conclusion of historical scholarship. This can be seen in the following works:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A beautiful summary of this conclusion of scholars of
African history (some of whose names and works are listed above) is shown in the page below from Adam Knobler (2016), p.47.

Peace!

Cc: Blakjewelry

Regarding the 20 moons’ journey, Ife was in fact 20 moons’ walking trip away from Benin.

Abohboy:
I am reopening this thread because there is still no answer and I need to know I have read on Jstor and it doesn't seem to be ife the present of such a cross doesn't show up in Ife artefacts so i'm starting to see a potential Igbo or Nupe origin for the Ogane please don't turn this into a tribalist thread

1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7

Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that ••• at twenty moons’ journey' which … would be about two hundred and fifty of our leauges there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. •••

Make Sure To Read This:

IFE is roughly about 174 miles away from Benin City.

However, the alleged distance of 900 miles is NOT mentioned anywhere in the text.

Instead, the distance between Benin City and the Ogane’s place [as given in the text] is 250 leagues.

However, this number (250 leagues) wasn’t obtained (by the Portuguese) from any Bini informant. This fact is extremely clear from the text itself.

In fact, the Binis who lived in the 1400s/1500s did not measure distance in leagues, miles, etc. As such, they couldn’t have given such information.

Instead, the Binis of the 1400s, 1500s, etc. measured distance in natural terms, e.g. on the basis of celestial bodies such as the Moon, etc.

Interestingly, the distance obtained from the Binis by the Portuguese was given in terms of the Moon. This is given in the text.

The Binis informed the Portuguese that it takes twenty (20) moons journey to go from Benin city to the Ogané’s place.

It was on the basis of this received information (i.e. 20 moons journey away) that the Portuguese imagined what the distance in “leagues” should be.

The distance in leagues was NOT received from the Binis. The text is clear on this. The W/African context is also clear on this.

Having said that, the natural question now becomes:

Is this number (20 moons journey from Benin City to the Ogane’s place) realistic for IFE if it is indeed the Ogane’s place??

In other words, could the distance from Benin City to Ile-Ife possibly have been twenty moons journey in some “traditional” terms? Let’s do the Maths on the basis of average numbers & the “traditional” context.

The data to be used for the Math is NOT on the basis of Google map’s algorithm which assumes a walking trip with zero tiredness, zero rests, zero stops, zero pauses, zero relaxations, zero camps, constant rapid pace, etc.

Instead, the data to be used is on the basis of the real life situation, average numbers, & traditional context.

Datum 1: C. G. Okojie’s “Ishan Native Laws and Customs,” p. 210. provides the first data as follows:

The walking trip from Uromi (in Ishan) to Benin City on a course of some 50 miles “traditionally” took an average of 5 months.

~ Cited in A.F.C. Ryder (1965), p.27.

Datum 2: IFE is roughly about 174 miles away from Benin City (even over the ancient Benin-Owo-Ife route).

These two data leave an answer of about 17.4 months [NOT moons] as the “traditional” walking time from Benin to Ife.

In other words, IFE is 17.4 months journey away from Benin city on the average “traditionally”.

Question: How many “moons” are 17.4 months equivalent to? To answer this, two pieces of data will be adduced.

Datum 3: It takes the Moon 27.322 days to go around the earth.

In other words, there are [exactly] about 27.322 days in one “moon”.

Datum 4: There is an average of 30.47 days in one month.

Summary:
(1) The “traditional” walking distance from Benin to Ile-Ife took an average of 17.4 months

(2) 17.4 months are equivalent to 530.178 days (i.e. 17.4 months * 30.47days per month).

(3) 530.178 days are equivalent to 19.4 moons (i.e. 530.178 days / 27.322 days per moon).

In conclusion, the facts and figures turn out to prove that the “traditional” trip from Benin city to Ile-Ife took an average of 19.4 moons.

This answer is therefore astoundingly accurate for all practical intents and purpose.

From this again, we see that Ife is indeed the place of the Ogané of the Portuguese text. The Bini informant knew exactly what he was talking about.

Peace!

Blakjewelry, macof

Regarding the mention of “cross”.

Abohboy:
I am reopening this thread because there is still no answer and I need to know I have read on Jstor and it doesn't seem to be ife the present of such a cross doesn't show up in Ife artefacts so i'm starting to see a potential Igbo or Nupe origin for the Ogane please don't turn this into a tribalist thread

1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7

Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that ••• there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. ••• In accordance with a very ancient custom, the king of Beny, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to him with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor he has succeeded to the kingdom of Beny, and to request confirmation. To signify his assent, the prince Ogané sends the king ••• a cross, likewise of brass, to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the Knights of the Order of Saint John. Without these emblems the people do not recognize him as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king. All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogané, he never sees the prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as though it were a sacred relic. As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey the ambassador receives a small cross, similar to that sent to the king, which is thrown round his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes, and privileged in his native country, as the Knights are with us.

Make Sure to Read This:

There are many cross motif symbols in the arts of Ife which again disproves former assumptions that Ife’s art work do not feature cross symbols.

Although, the text specifically mentions that the brass cross was made specifically for the Benin king and his messengers, the presence of same symbol in in Ife’s iconography (even though it wasn’t mentioned to be in use by the Ooni) further bolsters the astounding evidence already on ground.

Robin Horton puts this finds down in simple terms as follows:

“Thus we now have several examples of the Maltese-cross symbols on terra-cotta materials excavated at Ife*”

Robin Horton, “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment,” Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria,” Vol. 9. No.4, 1979, p.86.

In addition to the foregoing, the following passage is from Ward-Price’s “Dark Subject” showing the Oba of Benin’s address of morning prayers to his ancestors at Ife and Oyo.

The account is recorded by Ward-Price who was on a visit to the then Oba of Benin. He writes:

“Following the Oba, I went through a heavy Iroko door, which opened into a long, narrow, corridor-like room, with a tall window at the other end. He showed me a brass crucifix which was attached to a cord around his neck, and waited for the first rays of the day to illumine the window, when he pressed the crucifix to his forehead, and prayed for the Oni of Ife, the Alaafin of Oyo and the Oba of Benin (that is himself), after which he prayed for all the other Yoruba kings. This had for long been the custom, he said, whether the Oba was Christian or not.” ~ H. L. Ward-Price, “Dark Subject,” 1939, p.238.

Not only does this prove the linkage between Benin’s cross usage and Ile-Ife (/Yorubaland in general); it also bolsters the point proven earlier about how there is a widespread knowledge (in this region) of a linkage between dawn/sunrise and Ile-Ife (/Yorubaland).

Peace.

Blakjewelry

In fact, the helmet head piece, said in the text, to have also been sent is also corroborated in modern times.

A number of such helmet have turned up from Benin kingdom.

The attached example shows one of such helmets, and the name of this piece of helmet masks have been said from Benin sources to be:

Oduduwa Helmet masks. See one example attached.

Peace.
Cc: Abohboy, Blakjewelry

macof:


That's what you get when you rely too much on European accounts. I know Bini people here who act as if anything tye Europeans wrote is exactly as is written and what they didn't write did not exist.

The two biggest clues is that
1. this ruler is referred to as if the Oba of Benin pays him homage, not necessarily a subject but a figure that he seeks blessing from as one who even the writer imagines to be the most powerful ruler in that part of the world.
The only person that would be in such position is the Ooni.. Forget modern Nigerian ethnopolitics, oba of Benin and Ooni of Ife used to be very close

2. Ogane seems to be a Portuguese corruption of Oghene. Oghene which is in turn a Bini corruption of Oghone - Southeast Yoruba dialect of Owoni or Ooni

Oghene is the Bini word for their God and looking at evidence from scholars it doesn't seem to be Ife or even the ooni as the source it is more likely that the origin is of Nupe or Igala and not of yoruba reasons for not choosing Ife include the lack of brass crosses in excavations at Ife but brass crosses have been found in igbo land and especially in nupe and igala land so those are places are more likely to be the origin but the next step is to find the city, why the Oghene had that power and why they lost it and also if Oghene is even a person and not a religious site or metaphor for their God

TAO11:
Regarding the word “east”, read the devastating refutation below.


Make Sure to Read This:

Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.

This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.

In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language].

The symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample.

This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife.

In addition to this significant fact, the debate over the word “east” was subsequently quelled by the fact that from Atakpame (in present-day Togo) to the kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria), from Èkó (next to the Atlantic Ocean) to Ọ̀yọ́-Ilé (not far from the Niger River) Ife is known by the interesting epithet: Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá — i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”.

For some written references to the widespread usage of this epithet (in reference to Ife) among the natives of this region of West Africa, please refer to:

(A) Rev. D. Hinderer, “Diary Impression,” June 4, 1851, Ibadan, C.M.S.

(B) R. Horton (1979), p. 85., citing B. Maupoil (1943), A. Akinjogbin (1967:41-43), R. Smith (1969:31), as well as A. Obayemi (1976:206).

This reverential (rather than literal) epithet of Ife informed the literalist Europeans’ writings whose source(s) are Benin spokespersons of their king.

Hence the appearance of the word “east” in the early European writings in reference to the kingdom of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni (who is transliterated in the early writings as “Hooguanee”, “Ogané”, etc.).

Side Note: Binis, till today, still sometimes refer to the Ooni as Oghene. Refer to the entry “ɔɣɛnɛ” (i.e. “ọghẹnẹ”) in Hans Melzian’s “A Concise Dictionary of the Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” where its second definition is given as: “Bini name for the ↄni at Ile Ife”

Moreover, another piece of historical evidence which quelled the academic debate on the word “east” (as is seen in the early writings in reference to this overlord) are early maps.

There are maps (e.g. from the early 1500s) which show the phrase Dominion of the Orguene annotated across the western half of today’s Nigeria.

These historical information leaves anyone (not only the historians) with the only logical conclusion that the appearance of the word “east” in those early writings is of course not literal.

In conclusion, contrary to your ignorant assumption, there are writings from the early 1500s (on the basis of interviews of Bini representatives in the late 1400s) which references the king of Ife & his overlordship on Benin kingdom and other places.
—————

Apart from early writings, there are other types of historical evidence which also establish clearly that there exist a classic (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

These other type of historical evidence which I come to here are classical artifacts from the hard science of archaeology. One crucial examples in this regard is discussed below.

The artifact shown in this link is the image of an Ooni of Ife. ~ S. P. Blier, “Art in Ancient Ife,” 2012, Figure 17.

The Ife naturalism of this artifact, its facial striations, as well as its classical Ife ceremonial costume and the pair of chest ornament help art historians (as well as Benin chroniclers alike) with identifying this image as an Ooni of Ife.

What is very, very crucial here is that this artifact was found in the archaeological deposits of Benin. To be more precise, it was excavated from the royal palace of Benin kingdom.

Furthermore, the production date of this artifact has now been established by science. This artifact is dated, by thermoluminescence technique, to the year 1420 [± 60 years].

~ Calvocoressi & David, “A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa,” 1979, p. 19.

For more pictorial angles (and details) regarding this particular artifact, please refer to:

(A) W. Fagg, “A Bronze Figure in Ife Style at Benin,” British Museum, June 1950, Plate Fa, Fb, Fc

(B) F. Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture,” McGraw-Hill, 1967, Figure 89.

(C) C. Adepegba, “The Descent from Oduduwa,” 1986, Plate 4.

In other words, a more-than 500-year-old ‘bronze’ cast of an Ooni Ife was discovered in the (archaeological deposits of the) palace of Benin kingdom.

In conclusion, it thus becomes clear that there exists a classical (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

Again, this conclusion which I have inevitably reached is not mine. This is simply the conclusion of historical scholarship. This can be seen in the following works:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A beautiful summary of this conclusion of scholars of
African history (some of whose names and works are listed above) is shown in the page below from Adam Knobler (2016), p.47.

Peace!

All great but where are the brass crosses that the so called Ooni or Oghene gave to the king and emissaries and that he wore himself in archaelogical digs in Ife?

Abohboy:
All great but where are the brass crosses that the so called Ooni or Oghene gave to the king and emissaries and that he wore himself in archaelogical digs in Ife?

Be calming down, I’m getting there one at a time.

Plus the account in the source was clear. No where is it said that the Ooni himself wears cross symbols.

The cross is said clearly in the account to be made for the “Benin” messengers and the Benin king.

There is no indication whatsoever from the texts that the Ooni himself uses the same symbols or the same regalia as his dependency.

None of the Benin eyes even saw him to start with per the texts as cited by you — which I’m aware of.

Abohboy.
—————
PS: Now, your contention has been addressed. Scroll up, or see link below:

https://www.nairaland.com/6725935/ogane-east-benin#105308332

Peace.

Blakjewelry

TAO11:
Regarding the 20 moons’ journey, Ife was in fact 20 moons’ walking trip away from Benin. Make Sure To Read It:

Summary:
(1) The “traditional” walking distance from Benin to Ile-Ife took an average of 17.4 months

(2) 17.4 months are equivalent to 530.178 days (i.e. 17.4 months * 30.47days per month).

(3) 530.178 days are equivalent to 19.4 moons (i.e. 530.178 days / 27.322 days per moon).

In conclusion, the facts and figures turn out to prove that the “traditional” trip from Benin city to Ile-Ife took an average of 19.4 moons.

This answer is therefore astoundingly accurate for all practical intents and purpose.

From this again, we see that Ife is indeed the place of the Ogané of the Portuguese text. The Bini informant knew exactly what he was talking about.

Peace!

Rubbish.
Too much Benin wahala has turned your brain upside down..
Distance from Gombe to Abuja is far greater than the distance from Benin to Ife. It took just about 3 weeks for that Buhari supporter to trekk Gombe to Abuja and you are here calculating rubbish maths..
Ode.

Abohboy:
Oghene is the Bini word for their God

Actually, I know in Benin language oghene refers to osa (i.e. God).

But as with most words in most languages, the Benin word oghene have more than one meaning, each depending on the context.

You don’t have to take my word for it, consider the dictionary of Bini language as attached.

In other words, this Bini word oghene refers to God (i.e. osa). This same Bini word oghene is also a Bini name for the Ooni. Lastly, this same Bini word oghene, in a third context, also refers to one of the five pieces of a five-piece-kolanut.

So, it’s not only God that the word oghene means in the Bini language — yes, God appears from usage to be the most popular meaning.
——————
In addition to meaning, the dictionary also touches on etymology. The Bini word oghene itself is noted to have derived originally from the Yoruba title Ooni.

…and looking at evidence from scholars it doesn't seem to be Ife or even the ooni as the source

Lol. You’re probably sincere while being wrong. Both are possible.

What I mean is that, there is no single scholar of African history anywhere in the world today who contends that this Ogané is possibly not the Ooni.

The last time there was such debate was in the 1960s and probably up to the 1980s — and that was one or two scholars among all the scholars in the field all over the world.

Today, there is no such debate anywhere in the world. Scholars of African history (all over the world) have identified, with compelling evidence (some of which I have highlighted above), that the Ogané is none but the Ooni of Ife.

Refer to those evidence again. Go through them as if you really want to know.

…it is more likely that the origin is of Nupe or Igala and not of yoruba reasons for not choosing Ife include the lack of brass crosses in excavations at Ife

The bolded is unfortunately wrong. Scholars know better and I have cited one of such here.

but brass crosses have been found in igbo land and especially in nupe and igala land so those are places are more likely to be the origin

Yeeeeeeah, but wrong. Lol.

Even IF for the sake of argument, we see such cross motifs in artworks from other places [including IFE as scholars have shown in my earlier comment], such multiplicity leads one to narrow down to see if there is any linkage of Benin’s cross usage with any of these places.

Well, the only place of all these place with which Benin associate its cross usage is IFE. No where else. It’s not rocket science.

but the next step is to find the city, why the Oghene had that power and why they lost it and

Well, if evidence is what we’re going by, then scholars are correct with their conclusion of Ife. And I have put forward some of such detailed evidence. Read them with care.

Empires rise and fall. The Ife empire (1100s — 1400s) like any empire rose and fell. Scholars have identified reasons for the fall one of which are newly emerging trade routes connecting peoples to the wider world.

…also if Oghene is even a person and not a religious site or metaphor for their God

If what you’re referring to is the Ogané of that text you cited; then a human being is being referred to. We must be honest. Yes we can.

According to the text, the Ogané:

(1) Is a monarch

(2) Receives Bini ambassadors.

(3) Sends physical items to the Benin king.

(4) Shows only his leg to them as he is too sacred.

Peace!

Blakjewelry, macof

You were even scared to quote the comment in full.

davidnazee:
[s]Rubbish.
Too much Benin wahala has turned your brain upside down..Distance from Gombe to Abuja is far greater than the distance from Benin to Ife. It took just about 3 weeks for that Buhari supporter to trekk Gombe to Abuja and you are here calculating rubbish maths..Ode.[/s]

(1) Him alone or as part of a team comprising folks of varying ages, etc.?

(2) Was his pace of travel also slow—as mentioned in the text about the Bini ambassadors?

(3) Was his trip like the traditional one from Uromi (in Ishan) to Benin city which took an average of 5 months?

(4) Are we to believe (because he doesn’t lie) that he did not make use of buses, etc. at any point in his trip?

My comment is actually for those who have the ability to make use of their brain.

Peace!

Cc: Abohboy

TAO11:
You were even scared to quote the comment in full.
Him alone or as part of team comprising people of varying age, etc.?

Was his pace of travel also slow—as mentioned in the text about the Bini ambassadors?

Was his trip like the traditional one from Uromi (Ishan) Benin city which took an average of 5 months?

My comment is actually for those who have the ability to make use of their brain.

Peace!

Cc: Abohboy

Try reason properly before you post your rubbish..
A messenger sent on an errand to ife will not travel at slow pace and from your unreasonable calculations will not take 4 yrs (round trip to deliver and bring back an answer).
Its obvious you are talented at writing long essays (full of rubbish).

davidnazee:
[s]Try reason properly before you post your rubbish..
A messenger sent on an errand to ife will not travel at slow pace and from your unreasonable calculations will not take 4 yrs (round trip to deliver and bring back an answer).
Its obvious you are talented at writing long essays (full of rubbish).[/s]

You try, but you were in a hurry to reply which is your undoing.

If you had read the text, you would have seen that that was precisely what is said in the original text:

“… according to their account, and the short journeys they make …”

Another English translation from A.F.C. Ryder (1965) which you all love to quote says:

“… according to their account and the slow pace at which they travel …”

——————
So, my earlier questions to you stands:

(1) Him alone or as part of team comprising folks of varying age, etc.?

(2) Was his pace of travel also slow—as mentioned in the text about the Bini ambassadors?

(3) Was his trip like the traditional one from Uromi (in Ishan) to Benin city which took roughly 5 months?

(4) Are we to believe (because he doesn’t lie that) he didn’t make use of buses, etc. at any point in the trip?

Again, my comment is actually for those who have the ability to make use of their brain.

Peace.
Cc: Abohboy

davidnazee:


Try reason properly before you post your rubbish..
A messenger sent on an errand to ife will not travel at slow pace and from your unreasonable calculations will not take 4 yrs (round trip to deliver and bring back an answer).
Its obvious you are talented at writing long essays (full of rubbish).

Almost 4 years round trip for the new Oba to get confirmation from this Ogane. There were Obas in Benin whose reigns didn't even last a year.

Don't be surprised if the Yoruba hurriedly go to Igun Street to buy and display a brass cross as evidence

Benin to Lagos is about 196 miles and Benin to Ife is about 174 miles.

Messagers from Lagos military garrison were sent daily to Benin as of 1602. By 1602, Benin already established a military garrison in Lagos. This garrison would have been built in the 1500s.

Someone wants us to believe that it would have taken nearly 2 years for Benin messager to get to Ife in 1485.

The way the Yoruba write A' Ba' Da' B D junks of fairytales would have been very hilarious and entertaining if not that there are people here who actually believes these cock and bull stories.

Macof is on the other thread mutilating the history of Ada and Eben

Let here not be flooded with the bitter-pill syndrome, Amen! Lol.

(1) It took an average 5 months' traditionally from Uromi to Benin City (C.G. Okije cited in A.F.C Ryder).

Then logically [something Bini-Nairalanders lack], it took an average of 20 moons' traditionally from Benin City to IFE.

The Math & Logic have been detailed above. And Logic /Math are no respecter of people's emotions.
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(2) The cross piece was NOT said to have have being casted and sent from Benin to confirm the Ooni.

Instead, the text clearly shows it to be the other way round; i.e. casted and sent to Benin for confirmation.

As such, one of such piece casted and sent to Benin should be necessarily sought in Benin (not Ife).

And even if found there, it must have been put to use in connection with Ife/Yorubaland, not elsewhere.

Interestingly, one of such piece was not only found in Benin; it was also used on a daily (by Benin kings) in connection to Ile-Ife & Yoruba land. This was also put down in detail above.

Moreover, Ife arts have also shown evidence of the knowledge of cross iconography in ancient Ife — as proven above.
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(3) First of all, there was no such thing as a Benin garrison in Lagos; that illusion was thoroughly debunked here.

Now to refuting the thoughtless bungle of equating a Lagos-Benin (1600s) trip with a Benin-IFE (1400s) trip:


(A) The Benin-IFE (1400s) trip is a trip on land through the forested interior. While the Lagos-Benin 1600s trip (based on Ulsheimer's account) is a trip on water via the Atlantic coast and the Ughoton river channel. INCOMPARABLE.

(B) The Benin-IFE (1400s) forest walk does requires and allows for days, weeks, or months of campings & resorts along the journey. The Lagos-Benin (1600s) boat cruise does not.

(C) The distance covered per unit of time by walking as a group is in no logical way comparable to the distance covered per unit of time by paddling as a group. One permits division of labour, the other doesn't.

(D) The Lagos-Benin trip was not completed to and from on that same day. The impression you're creating that it was is not found in the actual text. The messengers are not said in the text to be the same person(s) in each day. Only the two senders are the same for each day.


There is just no basis whatsoever for comparison. The centuries are different, the channel (and of course means) of the trip are also different. One is way more efficient than the other. The comparison is simply dumb.

The traditional walking trip from Benin to Ife have already been detailed out above based on traditional data and other facts and figures. And Ife fits in with absolute practical precision.

Logic & Math are no respecters of people's emotions.

Peace.

Some Yoruba here will want us believe that Benin to Ife, a distant of 174 miles took almost 2 years in 1485 for Benin messager to travel and by late 1500s Benin to Lagos, a distant of 196 miles was being travelled daily because the Lagos Benin expressway was already built/tarred and Benin messagers were travelling between Lagos and Benin in the newly invented motor cars.

Is there nothing Yoruba will not tell us? No matter how dumb and illogical.

Don't also forget that they want us to believe that the direction east is west.

And let's wait for the evidence of the brass cross. This one will even shock the Devil out of the Devil himself.

Abohboy:
I am reopening this thread because there is still no answer and I need to know I have read on Jstor and it doesn't seem to be ife the present of such a cross doesn't show up in Ife artefacts so i'm starting to see a potential Igbo or Nupe origin for the Ogane please don't turn this into a tribalist thread

1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7

Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that [b]to the east of Beny at twenty moons' journey which according to their account, and the short journeys they make, would be about two hundred and fifty of our leauges there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Beny he was held in as great veneration as is the Supreme Pontif with us. In accordance with a very ancient custom, the king of Beny, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to him with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor he has succeeded to the kingdom of Beny, and to request confirmation. To signify his assent, the prince Ogané sends the king a staff and a headpiece of shining brass, fashioned like a Spanish helmet, in place of a crown and sceptre. He also sends a cross, likewise of brass, to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the Knights of the Order of Saint John. Without these emblems the people do not recognize him as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king. All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogané, he never sees the prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as though it were a sacred relic.[/b] As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey the ambassador receives a small cross, similar to that sent to the king, which is thrown round his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes, and privileged in his native country, as the Knights are with us.

.

Too much of Hollywood movies and lies from BobRISKY is bad.
I also learnt the Ijebu king reported this Supreme king to the Europeans.
If this feared and "eyes dare not see king" was reported to the Europeans by both the Oba of Benin and the Ijebu king as claimed by BobRISKY and co abeg

* When the Herdsmen, the Sons of Mohammed came calling to the land of the Ogane especially the land of the Ijebus who also reported this Ogane to the Europeans, did they tell same to this Mohammedans.

* If ever such a FEARED IMMORTAL and eyes dare not see king ever existed why did most Kings under is suzerainty converted to Islam and also bear Islamic names up till this moment?
Was he a Super Coward that even his territories and beyond, his kings and servants, the men and women who worshiped him were taken and converted to ISLAM and presently the OBA himself is a frequent church goer.

When we try to place history, from what angle, perspective, narrative and events relative to us are we drawing our conclusions.

One thing is certain and sure, not until the grand father of this present OBA did this Ife and Benin jargons started, he unlike his ancestors was born and brought up in Lagos until his coronation as the OBA under a Western Nigeria government and the British who despised his ancestors.

Benin and Ife had nothing in common, if the Mohammedans could make nonsense of an imaginary SUZERAIN as claimed by them the Europeans would have done such if they ever believed in such NONSENSE


FINALLY
You as a person REASON with me, if this Europeans that drew the map, navigated the world using coordinates and every instruments they had back then at their disposal, do you believe if it was ever said that out of everything told this European that it is only the LOCATION of the Ogane they never understood but every other thing said they understood.
I fear Ogane WEED smokers

TAO11:
Let here not be flooded with the bitter-pill syndrome, Amen! Lol.

(1) It took an average 5 months' one-way trip traditionally from Uromi to Benin City (C.G. Okije cited in A.F.C Ryder).

Then logically [something Binis Naira-landers lack], it took an average of 20 moons' one-way trip traditionally from Benin City to IFE.

The Math & Logic have been detailed above. And Logic /Math are no respecter of people's emotions.
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(2) A cross piece was NEVER said to have being casted and sent from Benin to confirm the Ooni [abomination!]. Instead, the text clearly shows it to be the other way round.

As such, one of such piece made and sent to Benin should be necessarily sought in Benin (not Ife): and even if found there must have been to use in connection with Ife/Yorubaland, not elsewhere.

Interestingly, one of such piece was not only truly found in Benin; it was also used on a daily basis (by Benin kings) in connection to Ile-Ife & Yoruba land. This has also been detailed above. Moreover, some Ife artifacts have also yielded the use of the cross iconography.
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(3) First of all, there was no such thing as a Benin garrison in Lagos; that illusion was thoroughly debunked here.

Now to refuting the thoughtless bungle of equating a Lagos-Benin (1600s) trip with a Benin-IFE (1400s) trip:


(A) The Benin-IFE (1400s) trip is a trip on land through the forested interior. While the Lagos-Benin 1600s trip (based on Ulsheimer's account) is a trip on water via the Atlantic coast and the Ughoton channel. INCOMPARABLE

(B) The Benin-IFE (1400s) forest walk does requires and allows for days, weeks, or months of campings & resorts along the journey. The Lagos-Benin (1600s) boat cruise does not.

(C) The distance covered per unit of time by walking as a group is in no logical way comparable to the distance covered per unit of time by paddling as a group. One permits division of labour, the other doesn't.


There is just no basis whatsoever for comparison. The centuries are different, the channel (and of course means) of the trip are also different. One is way more efficient than the other. The comparison is simply dumb.

The traditional walking trip from Benin to Ife have already been detailed out above based on traditional data and other facts and figures. And Ife fits in with absolute practical precision.

Logic & Math are no respecters of people's emotions.

Peace.

.


So out of everything told the Europeans they understood all but the said LOCATION they didn't.......what a LOGIC

So only you and your Ogane weed smokers can correctly calculate out the precise locations but men who built ships back then, navigated the world, who knew the time and dates of different region they visited, who knew astrology and who could keep and trace locations base on the Moon never knew MATHS and were never discerning

Stop smoking Ogane WEED

Abohboy:


Oghene is the Bini word for their God and looking at evidence from scholars it doesn't seem to be Ife or even the ooni as the source it is more likely that the origin is of Nupe or Igala and not of yoruba reasons for not choosing Ife include the lack of brass crosses in excavations at Ife but brass crosses have been found in igbo land and especially in nupe and igala land so those are places are more likely to be the origin but the next step is to find the city, why the Oghene had that power and why they lost it and also if Oghene is even a person and not a religious site or metaphor for their God

Anybody can suggest anything but nobody can prove it is of Nupe origin.
Should it be Igala.. It is the same thing I'm saying then as Igala language is a Yoruboid language
Linguistics analysis shows "Oghene" is derived from Yoruboid and in this language family it is the ruler of Ife... As used by the Edo people too. So what exactly is the problem?

PS. Nupe would be North, so that is out of it if you want to take the "east" seriously

KingOKON:
.So out of everything told the Europeans they understood all but the said LOCATION they didn't.......what a LOGIC

So only you and your Ogane weed smokers can correctly calculate out the precise locations but men who built ships back then, navigated the world, who knew the time and dates of different region they visited, who knew astrology and who could keep and trace locations base on the Moon never knew MATHS and were never discerning

Stop smoking Ogane WEED

You try. Happy now or still sad?

samuk:




Macof is on the other thread mutilating the history of Ada and Eben

As uncomfortable as knowledge makes you feel you will continue to get it

macof:


1. About the Ẹbẹn and Ada

They are known as symbols of the King's Justice and Favor
Ada being a cutlass to execute justice and Ẹben being a fan to deliver mercy or favor

These are purely Yoruba derived

In Yorùbá fan is "Abẹ̀bẹ̀", and cutlass is "Àdá"
Also "ẹ̀bẹ̀" means plea for mercy or a favour (the receiver)
"dá" means to execute, to perform. ie. Execute justice = "dájọ́". (the giver)

You don't have this linguistic representation of the Ceremonial fan and cutlass "Ẹbẹn" and "Ada" in Bini language.

In Bini "execute justice" is bu ohiẹ. To "seek favor" is rinmwian

Also in Bini "cutlass" is Opia (possibly igbo derived), while "Fan" is ezuzu

You can't find the logic behind the names of Ẹbẹn and Ada in Bini language

We can see that only in Yorùbá does "Ẹbẹn" refer to Mercy/favor as well as Fan
So also "Ada" refer to Cutlass as well as execution of justice


2. So much talk about Ologboṣere, yet if asked to give its meaning in Bini you wouldn't be able to.
Even at first look, you can recognise the n-l palatalization which is a signature of Yoruba language.
Anyone correct me if that exist in other Volta-Niger languages

Ologboṣere can be derived from Oní ògbo ṣe ire = "the wielder of the double-edged sword does a good thing"

Earliest Yoruba lived in the middle belt with nupe and others. Tao have trashed this issue already

TAO11:
You try. Happy now or still sad?

How many times did I tell you, East was not West.

Look at the way you have embarrassed yourself before everyone.

Abohboy is fast losing confidence in you. You better hurry up and show us the evidence of the brass cross your Ogane sent to the Oba of Benin and the one he wore around his neck. Have you contacted Igun Street in Benin city yet.

According to you the European that navigated all his way to Benin city and back to Europe didn't understand the geopolitical location East.

macof:


Anybody can suggest anything but nobody can prove it is of Nupe origin.
Should it be Igala.. It is the same thing I'm saying then as Igala language is a Yoruboid language
Linguistics analysis shows "Oghene" is derived from Yoruboid and in this language family it is the ruler of Ife... As used by the Edo people too. So what exactly is the problem?



PS. Nupe would be North, so that is out of it if you want to take the "east" seriously

The problem is we are talking about the location not the language. We are also talking about the brass cross not found in Ife and the journey time of 20 moons or 20 months or almost 2 years.

Ogane was said to be located east of Benin. Ife is west.

Ife is not in the same location as Igala.

You guys can now see how difficult it is to defend lies to those not interested in fairytales

Your usual audience are those who lacks real history like yourself and dwells on fairytales but when you come across those who have no sympathy for fairytales, your stories fall apart and crumble like a pack of cards.

PS: TAO11 is already sweating profusely , her usual Igbo supporters that she normally deceive with long gibberish can't be found to lend her moral support despite repeatedly calling on them. The guys don't want any embarrassments. They rather read quietly from the sidelines.

Ogene is Nri, Anambra State. The Nri crowns both Oba Bini and Atta Idah

TAO11:
Let here not be flooded with the bitter-pill syndrome, Amen! Lol.

(1) It took an average 5 months' one-way trip traditionally from Uromi to Benin City (C.G. Okije cited in A.F.C Ryder).

Then logically [something Binis Naira-landers lack], it took an average of 20 moons' one-way trip traditionally from Benin City to IFE.

The Math & Logic have been detailed above. And Logic /Math are no respecter of people's emotions.
.
.
.
(2) The cross piece was NOT said to have have being casted and sent from Benin to confirm the Ooni.

Instead, the text clearly shows it to be the other way round; i.e. casted and sent to Benin for confirmation.

As such, one of such piece casted and sent to Benin should be necessarily sought in Benin (not Ife).

And even if found there, it must have been put to use in connection with Ife/Yorubaland, not elsewhere.

Interestingly, one of such piece was not only found in Benin; it was also used on a daily (by Benin kings) in connection to Ile-Ife & Yoruba land.

This has also been detailed above. Moreover, Ife arts have also shown evidence of the knowledge of cross iconography in ancient Ife — as proven above.
.
.
.
(3) First of all, there was no such thing as a Benin garrison in Lagos; that illusion was thoroughly debunked here.

Now to refuting the thoughtless bungle of equating a Lagos-Benin (1600s) trip with a Benin-IFE (1400s) trip:


(A) The Benin-IFE (1400s) trip is a trip on land through the forested interior. While the Lagos-Benin 1600s trip (based on Ulsheimer's account) is a trip on water via the Atlantic coast and the Ughoton channel. INCOMPARABLE

(B) The Benin-IFE (1400s) forest walk does requires and allows for days, weeks, or months of campings & resorts along the journey. The Lagos-Benin (1600s) boat cruise does not.

(C) The distance covered per unit of time by walking as a group is in no logical way comparable to the distance covered per unit of time by paddling as a group. One permits division of labour, the other doesn't.


There is just no basis whatsoever for comparison. The centuries are different, the channel (and of course means) of the trip are also different. One is way more efficient than the other. The comparison is simply dumb.

The traditional walking trip from Benin to Ife have already been detailed out above based on traditional data and other facts and figures. And Ife fits in with absolute practical precision.

Logic & Math are no respecters of people's emotions.

Peace.

I also read that terracotta in Ife has cross symbols but there's no evidence for this please kindly provide images and it still doesn't make sense that it took over a year to go from Benin City To Ife a time of 5 months would make more sense even if they're moving slowly in any case I read a journal on Jstor and it says ambassadors normally wer egiven cat whisker markings after visiting the Oghane and terracotta like this has on;y been sighted once in Ife meanwhile in Nupe and igala land it is used and seen a lot more i'm not disputing that it's not the Ooni but I just want to look at every single possibility