Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Time2soar1: 5:47pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
childgodly: Timeline!! Thank you all so much for all the help I’m a first time applicant and can testify that with this thread you can submit an application on your own. I think it’s worth mentioning that I didn’t submit NSE documents initially. I submitted them later via web form when I saw others getting NSE request and I didn’t get but nothing really changed after that. No ghost updates, no eligibility, nothing. I sent lots of mails with no answer, not even the generic ones. I already deferred so I will not be going till December but at least now I can start making the necessary preparations. Thank you all once again!!
P.s I don’t have a new LOA yet but when I get it what should I do? Should I just send it via webform? It is well |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Time2soar1: 5:49pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
bisimo: PPR REQUEST FOR I AND MY FAMILY!! I, MY HUBBY AND 3 KIDS!! I WILL BE BACK SOON FOR MORE INFO.. I AM OVER HAPPY NOW!!!!1 Congratulations. Canada will favour you and your family. My own PPR will come this week in Jesus name. God I know you have done it. Thank you 7 Likes |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by OGRukky: 5:57pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Soleizzy: AWAITING PPR!
Manlikemace: April 4th | Upfront medicals: Passed Ketima: May 29th | Upfront medicals: Passed davidbanky: July 27th | Upfront medicals: More test required, already did the test Godsfave: May 14th | Upfront medicals: Passed childgodly: May 12th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Harbay30: June 4th | Upfront Medicals: Passed mercy445: May 5th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Kam3: April 23rd | Upfront Medicals: Passed Ishola049: May 8th | Upfront Medicals: Passed SAF2K: July 16th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Jubileefraizer: June 3rd | Upfront Medicals: Passed Akanoa: June 24th| Upfront Medicals: Passed | Deferred to JAN JosephYemsol: July 19th | Upfront Medicals: Passed | JAN Resumption Iffylove: July 21st | Upfront Medicals: Passed Elixosodi: May 24th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Blazca: May 13th | Upfront Medicals: Passed fejiromich: May 14th| Upfront Medicals: Passed Jojorito007: May 14th| Upfront Medicals: Passed ChisZom: May 14th | Upfront Medicals: Passed tourphland: July 10th | Upfront Medicals MamateesLababy: May 14th| Upfront Medicals: Passed mmoo: April 4th : | Upfront Medicals: Passed | Deferred to JAN studywell: April 27th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Johnchan2: May 11th | Upfront Medicals: Passed buzzme: May 13th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Redaddict: May 12 | Upfront Medicals: Passed Oyesquare10: May 15th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Myki007: May 19th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Ebonieblack: May 14th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Fortuneforever: May 16th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Olanray01: Feb 28th ehisforever24: July 7th | Upfront Medicals: Passed darey360: May 15th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Fif5: May 14th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Kema22: May 14th|upfront medical passed Officialksolo: June 24th | Upfront Medicals: Passed | JAN Resumption dotoracs: April 8th |upfront medical passed Foladimejiw: April 25th | Upfront Medicals: Passed | Deferred to JAN CLOUDWEB : July 8th | Upfront Medicals: passed onomss: May 7th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Abbyfred: Feb 27th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Gloryyssssz: May 15th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Sandra734030: June 16th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Benquip: May 6th | Completed 50% learning online | 2nd Application LILIAN75: April 27th | Deferred to JAN MirahO: May 17th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Canadaboyk: July 16th | Upfront Medicals: Passed Soleizzy:May 13th | Upfront Medicals: Passed OGRukky:May7th| Upfront Medicals:Passed|Deferred to JAN
Please share yours if you are still expecting PPR It will definitely end in praise.[/quote |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Soleizzy(m): 5:58pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
dotoracs: Work, Pray and Believe. It shall manifest!
I said it here that I claim this week. And it came to past. No agent involved. It was God, friendly interactions from here and other social media platform and my humble wits.
It's a PPR alert guys. I'd be back for its details.
Congratulations. I am booking my space for my testimony this week. Thank you Lord in advance for my PPR. 3 Likes |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by OGRukky: 5:59pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
So shall it be Amen . ayoslas88: God of mercy, please I look unto u for favour this week. Let my PPR DROP THIS WEEK IJN
Fourth application April 24th applicant Upfront medical passed June 23rd Eligibility started August 16 Normal route
There is nothing God cannot do
|
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by OGRukky: 6:02pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
It has ended in praise.congratulations .I’m next in Jesus name childgodly: Timeline!! Thank you all so much for all the help I’m a first time applicant and can testify that with this thread you can submit an application on your own. I think it’s worth mentioning that I didn’t submit NSE documents initially. I submitted them later via web form when I saw others getting NSE request and I didn’t get but nothing really changed after that. No ghost updates, no eligibility, nothing. I sent lots of mails with no answer, not even the generic ones. I already deferred so I will not be going till December but at least now I can start making the necessary preparations. Thank you all once again!!
P.s I don’t have a new LOA yet but when I get it what should I do? Should I just send it via webform? 1 Like |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by CanaCBU: 6:02pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
pjosh1: applied January 28 2021, upfront medical passed currently waiting for ppr
What's peculiar about your delayed application. Was there a chargeback? |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by OGRukky: 6:07pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Congratulations it’s raining PPR I’m next to testify.May Canada Favour you dotoracs: Work, Pray and Believe. It shall manifest!
I said it here that I claim this week. And it came to past. No agent involved. It was God, friendly interactions from here and other social media platform and my humble wits.
It's a PPR alert guys. I'd be back for its details.
2 Likes |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by OGRukky: 6:10pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Congratulations May Canada Favour you Frankalvinz: PPR Dropped today! I can't Breathe! It's been a long wait and plenty ghost updates, mentally drained but it paid off. First time applicant, normal Route and no Agent.
Profile; Age - 23/24 years old Highest level of Study - Microbiology Bsc.(2019 graduate) Preferred Course of Study - Computer Systems Technology (2 years + 1 year co-op) DLI - Sheridan College, Ontario
My Timeline; Feb 24th - Application submitted Feb 25th - Request for Biometrics Feb 26th - Biometrics done and Updated March 1st - Background Check started May 1st - GCMS notes ordered June 29th - Eligibility started July 18th - GCMS notes dropped (eligibility section and P.A.N still blank) July 25th - First ghost update July 27th - Second ghost update July 27th - Upfront Medicals submitted July 28th - Medicals being reviewed July 31st - Medicals passed Aug 10th - Third ghost update Aug 11th - Fourth ghost update Aug 26th - Fifth ghost update Sept 3rd - Sixth ghost update Sept 7th - PPR Dropped (My classes start today sef)
All Documents Submitted; 1) Application of study permit made outside Canada (imm1294e) 2) Letter of Acceptance 3) Scanned Copy of Passport Info Page 4) Proof of Funds (which includes Letter of Explanation of Funding Support, Letter of Financial Support and Affidavit from Sponsor, Scanned Copy of Sponsors ID, Sponsors 6-Months Bank Statement and Reference Letter from Bank, My First year full tuition payment Receipt) 5) My Digital Photo 6) Upfront E-Medical Information Sheet 7) Family Information (imm5645e) Evidence of Work Requirement in Study 9) Application for a TRV made outside Canada (imm5257b) 10) Client Information (which includes Letter of Explanation, Letter of Employment which was my NYSC year which ended this March, Police Clearance Certificate, Proof of English Proficiency, Online Certificates related to my preferred course of study)
GOD IS GREAT! I couldn't have done it without His grace over me throughout the journey even when I lost hope on the application. I remember finding this thread 3 days after submitting my application, and I felt bad because I made alot of mistakes and didn't include alot of documents in my application, I wanted to withdraw the whole application, but after reading through the thread, I got an insight that all applications are different, any application can be approved or declined, even the ones you least expect, so I became calm and waited. Your Testimony too is neigh, just be calm.
My Tips (From my Experience); 1) Apply for your study VISA at least 6 months before your School's resumption date. 2) When your Application has exceeded 3/4 months without any update, I suggest you send them mails or webforms 3 weekdays in a week between 5am-7am till you get your VISA decision (Your tone in the E-mails should be extremely polite). 3) When your Application has exceeded 3/4 months, you can try sending a mail to an MP (Member of Parliament) of where your school is located in Canada to help you out. Although not all would be willing to help (Mine wasn't). 4) After your Application, only send documents through Webforms when it is very necessary or sent for by your V.O because most times, these documents lead to major delays in your VISA decision.
I hope this helps alot of people.
2 Likes |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Time2soar1: 6:10pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
dotoracs: Work, Pray and Believe. It shall manifest!
I said it here that I claim this week. And it came to past. No agent involved. It was God, friendly interactions from here and other social media platform and my humble wits.
It's a PPR alert guys. I'd be back for its details.
Congratulations. Çanada will favour you
|
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by OGRukky: 6:12pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Congratulations it has ended in praise. JDforeal: Hi guys I just got passport request |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Dukealara: 6:15pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
dotoracs: Work, Pray and Believe. It shall manifest!
I said it here that I claim this week. And it came to past. No agent involved. It was God, friendly interactions from here and other social media platform and my humble wits.
It's a PPR alert guys. I'd be back for its details
Wow! congratulations!! |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by OGRukky: 6:16pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Congratulations � TennieYF: Its PPR guys! May 14th Non-NSE. Eligibility has still not started till now. Will come back and share my timeline.
God is just too faithful!!!! He's to faithful to fail me! |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Time2soar1: 6:17pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Frankalvinz: PPR Dropped today! I can't Breathe! It's been a long wait and plenty ghost updates, mentally drained but it paid off. First time applicant, normal Route and no Agent.
Profile; Age - 23/24 years old Highest level of Study - Microbiology Bsc.(2019 graduate) Preferred Course of Study - Computer Systems Technology (2 years + 1 year co-op) DLI - Sheridan College, Ontario
My Timeline; Feb 24th - Application submitted Feb 25th - Request for Biometrics Feb 26th - Biometrics done and Updated March 1st - Background Check started May 1st - GCMS notes ordered June 29th - Eligibility started July 18th - GCMS notes dropped (eligibility section and P.A.N still blank) July 25th - First ghost update July 27th - Second ghost update July 27th - Upfront Medicals submitted July 28th - Medicals being reviewed July 31st - Medicals passed Aug 10th - Third ghost update Aug 11th - Fourth ghost update Aug 26th - Fifth ghost update Sept 3rd - Sixth ghost update Sept 7th - PPR Dropped (My classes start today sef)
All Documents Submitted; 1) Application of study permit made outside Canada (imm1294e) 2) Letter of Acceptance 3) Scanned Copy of Passport Info Page 4) Proof of Funds (which includes Letter of Explanation of Funding Support, Letter of Financial Support and Affidavit from Sponsor, Scanned Copy of Sponsors ID, Sponsors 6-Months Bank Statement and Reference Letter from Bank, My First year full tuition payment Receipt) 5) My Digital Photo 6) Upfront E-Medical Information Sheet 7) Family Information (imm5645e) Evidence of Work Requirement in Study 9) Application for a TRV made outside Canada (imm5257b) 10) Client Information (which includes Letter of Explanation, Letter of Employment which was my NYSC year which ended this March, Police Clearance Certificate, Proof of English Proficiency, Online Certificates related to my preferred course of study)
GOD IS GREAT! I couldn't have done it without His grace over me throughout the journey even when I lost hope on the application. I remember finding this thread 3 days after submitting my application, and I felt bad because I made alot of mistakes and didn't include alot of documents in my application, I wanted to withdraw the whole application, but after reading through the thread, I got an insight that all applications are different, any application can be approved or declined, even the ones you least expect, so I became calm and waited. Your Testimony too is neigh, just be calm.
My Tips (From my Experience); 1) Apply for your study VISA at least 6 months before your School's resumption date. 2) When your Application has exceeded 3/4 months without any update, I suggest you send them mails or webforms 3 weekdays in a week between 5am-7am till you get your VISA decision (Your tone in the E-mails should be extremely polite). 3) When your Application has exceeded 3/4 months, you can try sending a mail to an MP (Member of Parliament) of where your school is located in Canada to help you out. Although not all would be willing to help (Mine wasn't). 4) After your Application, only send documents through Webforms when it is very necessary or sent for by your V.O because most times, these documents lead to major delays in your VISA decision.
I hope this helps alot of people.
Congratulations. Go and prosper in Canada 1 Like |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by OGRukky: 6:18pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Omo!God is gracious congratulations! prada1: PPR dropped this morning....This is the Finger of God...'Cause my application was absolutely nothing and this is no lies. I'll drop my timeline soon to encourage us and to let us know that God can break all protocol for your sake and that what GOD cannot do does not actually exist. This platform is the very best. Trust me. Thank you all |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Time2soar1: 6:20pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
amiecandie: My timeline
Applied May 14th Biometrics completed May 26th Upfront Medicals May 3rd Medical Passed June 4th Eligibility started immediately Awaiting PPR
Lord it is my birthday 11/09
I need this PPR as my birthday gift.
I know you there is nothing impossible for you to do as it determines a whole lot for me and family.
Booking this space to share my testimony.
I also speak on behalf of others waiting for this golden mail, let it be released and we receive showers of PPR from today onwards! IJN Amen Amen!!! |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Soleizzy(m): 6:23pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Legacyedition: Application refused based on personal assets and financial status. So Srry about that av you ordered for your gcms notes? When did you submit your application? 1 Like |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Time2soar1: 6:26pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Kema22: Good morning guys
I have been a part time silent observer on this thread but I would love you guys to join me in thanking God and I hope I would become a contact point for you all awaiting your ppr to get the good news soon. My Ppr just dropped and my timeline is as follows
Visa application timeline Applied 14th May Did biometrics on 26th of May Upfront medicals on 10th of May updated on the 21st of May. Bvl on the September 7th Ppr on the September 7th as well
I used normal route and no NSE as I couldn't write IELTS in such a short time. My mom is my sponsor and she submitted a bank statement of about 50000 CAD. I would be travelling to the University of New Brunswick by God's grace before this year runs out. Its an undergraduate program. Thank you so much guys Reading messages and words of encouragement from people on this thread really kept my hope alive. It was a long and anxious wait but we thank God it ended in praise.
I submitted Waec result High school testimonial Affidavit of support from my mom Bank statement of 20 million Study plan letter My mom's pension account statement My mom's letter of retirement LOA from my school.
I just deferred my admission early this morning sef. And I do not know what to do about that. Congratulations |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Time2soar1: 6:26pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
JDforeal: Hi guys I just got passport request Congratulations 1 Like |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Toopee: 6:28pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Has anyone applied to Camosun College? I'm trying to and can't seem to get around it. Do I need to apply through an agent? And that's your thoughts about the school?
Thank you. |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by ekenzify(m): 6:36pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Hello Guys.
I am a newbie here.
Please help me out.
My eldest sister who lives in Canada (a citizen now) requested that I apply for a graduate certificate program in Ontario.
Please how do I begin my applications?
I am, by God's grace, targeting May 2022 as the time to leave for Canada.
Do l start the Student Visa application now?
What are the requirements?
Please guys l need your answers.
Thank you and God bless. 1 Like |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Time2soar1: 6:36pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Legacyedition: Application refused based on personal assets and financial status. Waoo! So sorry to hear this. Be strong and request for your gcms note. 1 Like |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Dukealara: 6:39pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Royalty00: Silent reader but i have to share that it has finally ended in praise. PPR just dropped this afternoon. Didn't get any update since I submitted , eligibility review started today too.
Congratulations!! |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Evergreen694: 6:39pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Hey everyone, thank you for all the previous suggestions, directions and answers, I'm really grateful.
I got another enquiry to make. I will like to enquire if anyone has an idea of schools offering environmental engineering or any petroleum related course prefably 2year program with Co-op opportunity (preferably college).
I will also like to enquire if anyone has an idea of when admission application window opens for Spring and Fall Academic sessions/term.
Thank you all and anticipate your response. |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Dukealara: 6:46pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
BOOKING MY SPACE FOR MY PPR!! 20 Likes |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Lekiboboe: 6:51pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Lokonga: i am 31 and would like to migrate to Canada
studied chemical Engineering but work as a Business Analyst in a Bank. Also have a 2 year diploma in Accountancy.
am stuck between going for a MSC research in any Engineering program or Business Analytics. reason being that i don't know if my application will fly if i go for MSC research as is not related to my work? then again am confused as Business Analytics which is somewhat related to my work is totally different from what i studied,
Please Experience gurus in the house, what is the best option for me?
Have about 6-7m and i know is not enough...would be grateful if anyone assist me with schools/programs that offer funding/scholarship in Canada
am on 462 in express entry which is below cut off going by last draw but will loose 5point again this month . except i max out ielts or do TEF which is too stressful, this dream of going to Canada might probably not come through
thanks and God bless
cc:Lekiboboe Hi Chief, Am also quite confused as regards the bolded, try get across to the gurus on this for a Professional response Based on my own opinion, I feel you have two options here1) If you have a minimum of 2.1, and you don't have obvious study gaps, like less than 3-years (when you graduated from the university), you can try go for a Research-based masters in CHEMICAL ENGINEERING or related program. Go through the contents in the links below for that: https://www.nairaland.com/6567181/canadian-student-visa-thread-part/610#104836546https://www.nairaland.com/5818588/canadian-student-visa-thread-part/230#928691382) You can go for a PG.CERT in Business Analytics cos the program is based on your Job Experience PG. Cert in Business Analytics programshttps://www.nairaland.com/6321900/canadian-student-visa-thread-part/508#100751789Business Analysis Mohawk College, Hamilton, ON I.T. Business Analysis Cambrian College of Applied Arts and Technology, Sudbury, ON Potential Documents needed to apply for admission in a College for PG. Certhttps://www.nairaland.com/6567181/canadian-student-visa-thread-part/221#103080983https://www.nairaland.com/5818588/canadian-student-visa-thread-part/414#95068409AWAIT MORE CONTRIBUTIONS FROM THE HOUSEGood luck!!!! |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Lekiboboe: 6:53pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
ekenzify: Hello Guys.
I am a newbie here.
Please help me out.
My eldest sister who lives in Canada (a citizen now) requested that I apply for a graduate certificate program in Ontario.
Please how do I begin my applications?
I am, by God's grace, targeting May 2022 as the time to leave for Canada.
Do l start the Student Visa application now?
What are the requirements?
Please guys l need your answers.
Thank you and God bless. Hi, First of all, you need to assess your level of education (academic profile) and in some cases work experience to know the kind of program you can/should go for, cos most of the time, the qualification and the type of program you go for determines the potential success of your study visa application. You must have admission first, get your Letter Of Acceptance (admission Letter) before applying for Canada Study VisaThat being said, Your Response to the questions below would enable you to know the qualification & type of program you should go for (e.g PG.Cert, Masters, PHD, Post Doc) - What did you studied in the University (B.SC or M.SC) or polytechnic (HND)? - Do you have a 2.1 or 2.2, upper or lower credit? - what year did you graduate ? (to address study gap) - Do you have a job? If yes, what is the name of your Job, and what are your Job duties? (to know if your Job is related to your Degree) - How many years work experience do you have in that Job? |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by ohizzy(m): 7:04pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Greetings,
Congrats to the approved Candidates and my warm wishes to the denied candidates.
I just got my CAC and TIN approval for my small business, which I didn't include while submitting my application. Can I send it to IRCC via webform as ties to home county or not.
I'll appreciate your professional insight on this.
Regards. 1 Like |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by kennyjoy(m): 7:16pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Chipo14: Congratulations to all PPR recipients and may it end in praise for all those still waiting.
You all remember I got my PPR in August and by then my DLI had withdrawn me from the program. All effort to get back in has been futile. I decided to move on and apply for the next intake (winter 2022) only to be told that it's already closed and I should be on the look out for May 2022. So for now I have 9 months to wait. Gurus in the house, I hope this does not affect my visa in any negative way?
I know I can still get admitted into similar programs elsewhere but is it advisable since I will have to submit a new study permit application? 8 months is a long time to wait again after 6months wait for visa.
But I am still open to ideas on what to do about this. Thank you all
lol Everyone know the feeling, when you finally got PPR and you have to wait till you travel, lol 8month is just few days away, I would advice you to just engage yourself in something positive doings to keep you busy and before you know it May already. 2 Likes |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Nnamdiosang: 7:17pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
What a rainy day. Congrats to all the recipients, the land will favour you all. Space booked for mine 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Nnamdiosang: 7:22pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Chipo14: Congratulations to all PPR recipients and may it end in praise for all those still waiting.
You all remember I got my PPR in August and by then my DLI had withdrawn me from the program. All effort to get back in has been futile. I decided to move on and apply for the next intake (winter 2022) only to be told that it's already closed and I should be on the look out for May 2022. So for now I have 9 months to wait. Gurus in the house, I hope this does not affect my visa in any negative way? Thank you all
Relax 8 months ain't that long, @Blavkamann had a similar long waiting period, he's in Quebec now chilling. Just find something productive to keep yaself busy, say like an IT skill. You never know what will come in handy 3 Likes |
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by ekenzify(m): 7:23pm On Sep 07, 2021 |
Lekiboboe:
Hi,
First of all, you need to assess your level of education (academic profile) and in some cases work experience to know the kind of program you can/should go for, cos most of the time, the qualification and the type of program you go for determines the potential success of your study visa application.
You must have admission first, get your Letter Of Acceptance (admission Letter) before applying for Canada Study Visa
That being said,
Your Response to the questions below would enable you to know the qualification & type of program you should go for (e.g PG.Cert, Masters, PHD, Post Doc)
- What did you studied in the University (B.SC or M.SC) or polytechnic (HND)?
- Do you have a 2.1 or 2.2, upper or lower credit?
- what year did you graduate ? (to address study gap)
Thank you so much for your response.
Okay I have a B. Tech.
Graduated with 2.1 in 2018.
I don't have a job at the moment.
- Do you have a job? If yes, what is the name of your Job, and what are your Job duties? (to know if your Job is related to your Degree)
- How many years work experience do you have in that Job? |