https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJG6bd0W2Gw
Most Immoral Verse in the Quran?
Koran 65:4 is regarded as the verse on child marriage.

There are numerous moslem commentaries on the verse by very early Moslem commentators so it should be difficult for modern Moslem apologists to deny the facts here.

All four schools on jurisprudence agree that pre-pubescent virgin daughters may be forced into marriage by their fathers, and use Q65:4 as evidence.

The imam al-Bukhari used Aisha’s marriage as an illustration of a prepubescent girl who was married, thereby supporting the fact that Q. 65:4 does permit men to marry prepubescents. Moreover, the Al-Bukhari's comments provide additional corroboration that Mohamed married Aisha before she reached maidenhood!

sagenaija:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJG6bd0W2Gw
Most Immoral Verse in the Quran?
Koran 65:4 is regarded as the verse on child marriage.

There are numerous moslem commentaries on the verse by very early Moslem commentators so it should be difficult for modern Moslem apologists to deny the facts here.

All four schools on jurisprudence agree that pre-pubescent virgin daughters may be forced into marriage by their fathers, and use Q65:4 as evidence.

The imam al-Bukhari used Aisha’s marriage as an illustration of a prepubescent girl who was married, thereby supporting the fact that Q. 65:4 does permit men to marry prepubescents. Moreover, the Al-Bukhari's comments provide additional corroboration that Mohamed married Aisha before she reached maidenhood!

Most immoral verse in the Bible

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the young girls, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18 (KJV)

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 Good News Translation (GNT) – “When the Lord your God gives you victory in battle and you take prisoners, 11 you may see among them a beautiful woman that you like and want to marry. 12 Take her to your home, where she will shave her head, cut her fingernails, 13 and change her clothes. She is to stay in your home and mourn for her parents for a month; after that, you may marry her. 14 Later, if you no longer want her, you are to let her go free. Since you forced her to have intercourse with you, you cannot treat her as a slave and sell her.”

Infact Yahwe supports rape. The period in which the soldier cannot marry her is within a one month period of mourning. After that period the soldier can do what he wishes to the female, as the verse clearly states.


Now let me address

In Old Testament times, men typically married at or after the age of 20, women at or after puberty (maybe 13–14).

Example Romans 13:1–5 tells us to obey the laws of our secular society. In the Roman Empire, the minimum age for marriage was 12 for women and 14 for men (i.e., puberty). Christians would therefore have been required to obey this law and not marry any earlier.

Romans 13 NIV

By modern standards, these were child marriages as far as the women were concerned. By the standards of those day, they were not.


How old was Mary when she married Joseph?

haekymbahd:


Most immoral verse in the Bible

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the young girls, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18 (KJV)

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 Good News Translation (GNT) – “When the Lord your God gives you victory in battle and you take prisoners, 11 you may see among them a beautiful woman that you like and want to marry. 12 Take her to your home, where she will shave her head, cut her fingernails, 13 and change her clothes. She is to stay in your home and mourn for her parents for a month; after that, you may marry her. 14 Later, if you no longer want her, you are to let her go free. Since you forced her to have intercourse with you, you cannot treat her as a slave and sell her.”

Infact Yahwe supports rape. The period in which the soldier cannot marry her is within a one month period of mourning. After that period the soldier can do what he wishes to the female, as the verse clearly states.


Now let me address

In Old Testament times, men typically married at or after the age of 20, women at or after puberty (maybe 13–14).

Example Romans 13:1–5 tells us to obey the laws of our secular society. In the Roman Empire, the minimum age for marriage was 12 for women and 14 for men (i.e., puberty). Christians would therefore have been required to obey this law and not marry any earlier.

Romans 13 NIV

By modern standards, these were child marriages as far as the women were concerned. By the standards of those day, they were not.


How old was Mary when she married Joseph?

Your imam never tell you her age? Mary was 3yrs of age check it out on google

Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64

Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).


See how grandpa used to fondles Aishat


Sunan Abu Dawud 13:2380

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Prophet (peace be upon him) used to kiss her and suck her tongue when he was fasting.


Sahih Bukhari 1:6:298

Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet and I used to take a bath from a single pot while we were Junub. During the menses, he used to order me to put on an Izar (dress worn below the waist) and used to handle me.


Grandpa really try he deserves an award

haekymbahd:


Most immoral verse in the Bible

17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the young girls, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18 (KJV)

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 Good News Translation (GNT) – “When the Lord your God gives you victory in battle and you take prisoners, 11 you may see among them a beautiful woman that you like and want to marry. 12 Take her to your home, where she will shave her head, cut her fingernails, 13 and change her clothes. She is to stay in your home and mourn for her parents for a month; after that, you may marry her. 14 Later, if you no longer want her, you are to let her go free. Since you forced her to have intercourse with you, you cannot treat her as a slave and sell her.”

Infact Yahwe supports rape. The period in which the soldier cannot marry her is within a one month period of mourning. After that period the soldier can do what he wishes to the female, as the verse clearly states.


Now let me address

In Old Testament times, men typically married at or after the age of 20, women at or after puberty (maybe 13–14).

Example Romans 13:1–5 tells us to obey the laws of our secular society. In the Roman Empire, the minimum age for marriage was 12 for women and 14 for men (i.e., puberty). Christians would therefore have been required to obey this law and not marry any earlier.

Romans 13 NIV

By modern standards, these were child marriages as far as the women were concerned. By the standards of those day, they were not.


How old was Mary when she married Joseph?

You can see how you have to twist and turn in your brain to come up with what you have up there.

Can you honestly and with good conscience put the moral of those biblical portions you put up there at par with what we have stated from the Koran? Be for once sincere with yourself in doing this. Where did your Koran ever talk about slave women mourning their dead? Where?

Where did Yahweh support rape? Show us or apologise.

You talk about puberty (even though your figures are contestable) but we are talking about Islam allowing forced marriage of girls BEFORE PUBERTY!

So, to you, obeying the law of the land also includes obeying those conflicting with what the Bible stands for. Why do you think Christians were persecuted in the first few centuries? Because they followed ALL the laws of the land? THINK!

One last point: Did Mohamed marry out any of his daughters on or before puberty?
What does that tell you about the man?
If it was normal and exciting for men to marry immature girls why didn't your prophet marry out his girls that early?

sagenaija:
[/size]

You talk about puberty (even though your figures are contestable) but we are talking about Islam allowing forced marriage of girls BEFORE PUBERTY!

Why lying?


Allah SWT said:

"O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 19)



At what age does puberty in girls starts in today's world not to even talk of the past years?


Did the parent allow their daughter to marry another man when she hasn't reach puberty?

sagenaija:
[size=6pt]
Where did Yahweh support rape? Show us or apologise.

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 Good News Translation (GNT) – “When the Lord your God gives you victory in battle and you take prisoners, 11 you may see among them a beautiful woman that you like and want to marry. 12 Take her to your home, where she will shave her head, cut her fingernails, 13 and change her clothes. She is to stay in your home and mourn for her parents for a month; after that, you may marry her. 14 Later, if you no longer want her, you are to let her go free. Since you forced her to have intercourse with you, you cannot treat her as a slave and sell her.”

sagenaija:
[size=6pt]

So, to you, obeying the law of the land also includes obeying those conflicting with what the Bible stands for. Why do you think Christians were persecuted in the first few centuries? Because they followed ALL the laws of the land? THINK!

What laws does the bible stands for concerning marriage before or after puberty is there a definite age show us?

#

haekymbahd:

Why lying?

Allah SWT said:

"O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 19)

At what age does puberty in girls starts in today's world not to even talk of the past years?

Did the parent allow their daughter to marry another man when she hasn't reach puberty?

Deuteronomy 21:10-14 Good News Translation (GNT) – “When the Lord your God gives you victory in battle and you take prisoners, 11 you may see among them a beautiful woman that you like and want to marry. 12 Take her to your home, where she will shave her head, cut her fingernails, 13 and change her clothes. She is to stay in your home and mourn for her parents for a month; after that, you may marry her. 14 Later, if you no longer want her, you are to let her go free. Since you forced her to have intercourse with you, you cannot treat her as a slave and sell her.”

What laws does the bible stands for concerning marriage before or after puberty is there a definite age show us?

I have said it repeatedly that Islam speaks from both sides of the mouth.
You have therefore decided to pick on the verse that will deceive us.

Why not start by explaining Koran 65:4?
That is the crux of this thread. While you are at it don't forget what your earliest scholars said about it. Don't just give your personal opinion. Stop making unsubstantiated statements.

Did you see the word "MARRY" in that Bible verse you quoted? What does that tell you?

Compare that to this:
And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." - Koran 4:24

Now, before you begin to tell us what it does not mean, here is Abu Dawud on it:
"Abu Sai'd al-Khudri said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur'anic verse: [Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period. (1479)" Abu Dawud vol.2:2150 p.577

So, Islam permits sex with captive women. The captives were in no way considered wives.
Mohamed had a field day in this area.

But here we are talking about girls who have not attained puberty.
So, don't distract us from the main issue.

Does it seem right to you that Islam will allow a man to literally rape a minor? Is Islam's acceptance of having sex with a girl that is still physically immature normal to you?

Only PERVERTS will think that is ok and normal.

Compare that to a clear biblical position like:
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians 6:9‭-‬10 NIV

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]

Does it seem right to you that Islam will allow a man to literally rape a minor? Is Islam's acceptance of having sex with a girl that is still physically immature normal to you?

Only PERVERTS will think that is ok and normal.

Compare that to a clear biblical position like:
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
1 Corinthians 6:9‭-‬10 NIV

Take for example

Allah SWT said:

"And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. And whoever, [when acting as guardian], is self-sufficient should refrain [from taking a fee]; and whoever is poor - let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 6)

"O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 19)

There is no particular age given in the Quran for marriage. But for certain their is a marriageable age at that time the woman must have been able to give sound judgement which means must have reached puberty...

There is difference between contractual marrying and consumating the marriage. The method of marriage in the dark ages is they first make a contract marriage the lady might still be living with her family but when she is fully mature to the extent that she can have intercourse then her husband can consumate her then...

The Quranic verse 65:4 you are talking about is talking about divorce. It talks about the waiting period for a divorced woman to atleast marry another man or for her to leave her husband's home. The verse talks about women who are no longer expecting menstruation (menopause) and those who have not menstruated to wait for 3 months before leaving their husbands home.

Note the verse is talking about woman and not young girl's. That means the women/wives were already of marriageable age.

Women might not menstruate for different reasons

* It could be physical disorder, delayed menstruation, infection, young girl who have been married but not consumated, old age. Menstruation is part of puberty signs but not the only determining factor of puberty. The verse didn't give specification so it could be any of this..

haekymbahd:


The Quranic verse 65:4 you are talking about is talking about divorce. It talks about the waiting period for a divorced woman to atleast marry another man or for her to leave her husband's home. The verse talks about women who are no longer expecting menstruation (menopause) and those who have not menstruated to wait for 3 months before leaving their husbands home.

Note the verse is talking about woman and not young girl's. That means the women/wives were already of marriageable age.

Is this what your scholars say about this verse or your personal opinion?

If I show you what your scholar say what will you do?
Will you openly admit that you are wrong and quit Islam?

sagenaija:

Is this what your scholars say about this verse or your personal opinion?

If I show you what your scholar say what will you do?
Will you openly admit that you are wrong and quit Islam?

it is not about what the scholars say it is about what the verse says for the women to be married they must have reached marriageable age...

The verse talks about menstruation and not puberty, girls who have reached puberty might have delayed menstruation for several reasons.

Some don't get their periods because of hormone imbalances. Girls who are underweight or who have eating disorders may notice a delay in the start of their periods. Girls who are very athletic might not get their periods until they stop exercising or competing so vigorously. Severe stress or some illnesses also can delay menstruation.

It's also possible for a girl who has had sex to become pregnant before she gets her first period.

Also the practice of those of dark ages is that they marry early then wait for some years when the woman becomes fully matured and are ready for sexual intercourse before their husband consumate them



The Quran didn't give a specific age for marriage but it is clear that there is a standard for marriageable age when women are able to make sound judgement or reach puberty/maturity it might vary among women..


Allah SWT said:

"And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. And whoever, [when acting as guardian], is self-sufficient should refrain [from taking a fee]; and whoever is poor - let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 6)

haekymbahd:
it is not about what the scholars say it is about what the verse says for the women to be married they must have reached marriageable age...

The verse talks about menstruation and not puberty, girls who have reached puberty might have delayed menstruation for several reasons.

Some don't get their periods because of hormone imbalances. Girls who are underweight or who have eating disorders may notice a delay in the start of their periods. Girls who are very athletic might not get their periods until they stop exercising or competing so vigorously. Severe stress or some illnesses also can delay menstruation.

It's also possible for a girl who has had sex to become pregnant before she gets her first period.

Also the practice of those of dark ages is that they marry early then wait for some years when the woman becomes fully matured and are ready for sexual intercourse before their husband consumate them



The Quran didn't give a specific age for marriage but it is clear that there is a standard for marriageable age when women are able to make sound judgement or reach puberty/maturity it might vary among women..


Allah SWT said:

"And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. And whoever, [when acting as guardian], is self-sufficient should refrain [from taking a fee]; and whoever is poor - let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 6)

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haekymbahd:
it is not about what the scholars say it is about what the verse says for the women to be married they must have reached marriageable age...

The verse talks about menstruation and not puberty, girls who have reached puberty might have delayed menstruation for several reasons.

Some don't get their periods because of hormone imbalances. Girls who are underweight or who have eating disorders may notice a delay in the start of their periods. Girls who are very athletic might not get their periods until they stop exercising or competing so vigorously. Severe stress or some illnesses also can delay menstruation.

It's also possible for a girl who has had sex to become pregnant before she gets her first period.

Also the practice of those of dark ages is that they marry early then wait for some years when the woman becomes fully matured and are ready for sexual intercourse before their husband consumate them



The Quran didn't give a specific age for marriage but it is clear that there is a standard for marriageable age when women are able to make sound judgement or reach puberty/maturity it might vary among women..


Allah SWT said:

"And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. And whoever, [when acting as guardian], is self-sufficient should refrain [from taking a fee]; and whoever is poor - let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 6)

Since you've denied the scholars then answer these:
Where in that verse did it say that "girls who have reached puberty might have delayed menstruation for several reasons."?

Where did the verse say

Some don't get their periods because of hormone imbalances. Girls who are underweight or who have eating disorders may notice a delay in the start of their periods. Girls who are very athletic might not get their periods until they stop exercising or competing so vigorously. Severe stress or some illnesses also can delay menstruation.

Where in that verse do you see

there is a standard for marriageable age when women are able to make sound judgement or reach puberty/maturity it might vary among women..

It is evident that you trying to avoid the truth.

Mohamed married a minor. What does that tell you?

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
Since you've denied the scholars then answer these:
Where in that verse did it say that "girls who have reached puberty might have delayed menstruation for several reasons."?

Where did the verse say


Where in that verse do you see


It is evident that you trying to avoid the truth.

Mohamed married a minor. What does that tell you?

what are you even saying I showed you verse of the Qurans which shows their is a range or criteria for marriageable age. The Quran itself didn't give a definite age but it is clear the person involve should have reached marriageable age. The question is why would a woman who has reached marriageable age not menstruate which I have answered already


Allah SWT said:

"And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. And whoever, [when acting as guardian], is self-sufficient should refrain [from taking a fee]; and whoever is poor - let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 6)

"And do not approach the property of an orphan, except in the way that is best, until he reaches maturity. And fulfill [every] commitment. Indeed, the commitment is ever [that about which one will be] questioned."
(QS. Al-Israa 17: Verse 34)


Every culture has its own traditions, so we just shouldn’t be interested in what age this really is. If the expectation of today’s society is for a woman to marry at least at the age of 18, it could mean 25 or 30 up overnight, it doesn’t necessarily mean that any people who married at the age of 18 are perverts. It all depends on the norms, Islam does not require us to marry at this early age or at any specific age, but it depends on the maturity of the individual and the norms of the society in which they reside.

In Muhammad's time what he did was the norm then that was due to their culture it might not be applicable in today's world but one thing is clear Quran didn't give a specific for marriage but certainly said their is a marriageable age.

Of all the ridicule that Islam has faced since it came onto the scene as a new faith fourteen centuries ago, the marriage of Muhammad to Ayesha was not one of them until recently. Muslims, those who uphold the Islamic tradition, would argue that the reason for the lack of such critique is that marriage and age are so traditionally and culturally contextual.


If you see it as minor now they didn't see it as that then it was the norm..



Example Romans 13:1–5 tells us to obey the laws of our secular society. In the Roman Empire, the minimum age for marriage was 12 for women and 14 for men (i.e., puberty). Christians would therefore have been required to obey this law and not marry any earlier.

Romans 13 NIV

haekymbahd:
what are you even saying I showed you verse of the Qurans which shows their is a range or criteria for marriageable age. The Quran itself didn't give a definite age but it is clear the person involve should have reached marriageable age. The question is why would a woman who has reached marriageable age not menstruate which I have answered already

Allah SWT said:

"And test the orphans [in their abilities] until they reach marriageable age. Then if you perceive in them sound judgement, release their property to them. And do not consume it excessively and quickly, [anticipating] that they will grow up. And whoever, [when acting as guardian], is self-sufficient should refrain [from taking a fee]; and whoever is poor - let him take according to what is acceptable. Then when you release their property to them, bring witnesses upon them. And sufficient is Allah as Accountant."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 6)

"And do not approach the property of an orphan, except in the way that is best, until he reaches maturity. And fulfill [every] commitment. Indeed, the commitment is ever [that about which one will be] questioned."
(QS. Al-Israa 17: Verse 34)

Every culture has its own traditions, so we just shouldn’t be interested in what age this really is. If the expectation of today’s society is for a woman to marry at least at the age of 18, it could mean 25 or 30 up overnight, it doesn’t necessarily mean that any people who married at the age of 18 are perverts. It all depends on the norms, Islam does not require us to marry at this early age or at any specific age, but it depends on the maturity of the individual and the norms of the society in which they reside.

In Muhammad's time what he did was the norm then that was due to their culture it might not be applicable in today's world but one thing is clear Quran didn't give a specific for marriage but certainly said their is a marriageable age.

Of all the ridicule that Islam has faced since it came onto the scene as a new faith fourteen centuries ago, the marriage of Muhammad to Ayesha was not one of them until recently. Muslims, those who uphold the Islamic tradition, would argue that the reason for the lack of such critique is that marriage and age are so traditionally and culturally contextual.


If you see it as minor now they didn't see it as that then it was the norm..

Example Romans 13:1–5 tells us to obey the laws of our secular society. In the Roman Empire, the minimum age for marriage was 12 for women and 14 for men (i.e., puberty). Christians would therefore have been required to obey this law and not marry any earlier.

Romans 13 NIV

If, like you said,

that marriage and age are so traditionally and culturally contextual

How come Mohamed never married out his girls at that age?

sagenaija:
[size=6pt][/size]
If, like you said,

How come Mohamed never married out his girls at that age?

Did anyone ask for his daughter hand in marriage at that age?

If yes it proves it was the norm then


If they asked for her hand in marriage then their has to be a reason for that, every parent have the right to access the suitors and maturity of their daughter hand in marriage also the daughter must consent.


Muhammad didn't kidnap Aisha rather he asked for her hand in marriage and her parent and she accepted without force on them, if they see their daughter is of marriageable age. Neither did Aisha herself complain about the marriage even after the death of the prophet .

Aisha herself had already been engaged to someone else before Muhammad asked for her hand in marriage and she accepted with her family to follow the Muhammad.
.

There is no definite age for marriage then once they notice the girl is matured enough then they give her out for marriage so the age of maturity or puberty in ladies differs...


Allah SWT said:

"O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good."
(QS. An-Nisaa 4: Verse 19)

sagenaija:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJG6bd0W2Gw
Most Immoral Verse in the Quran?
Koran 65:4 is regarded as the verse on child marriage.

There are numerous moslem commentaries on the verse by very early Moslem commentators so it should be difficult for modern Moslem apologists to deny the facts here.

All four schools on jurisprudence agree that pre-pubescent virgin daughters may be forced into marriage by their fathers, and use Q65:4 as evidence.

The imam al-Bukhari used Aisha’s marriage as an illustration of a prepubescent girl who was married, thereby supporting the fact that Q. 65:4 does permit men to marry prepubescents. Moreover, the Al-Bukhari's comments provide additional corroboration that Mohamed married Aisha before she reached maidenhood!

This is the result of emptiness!

sagenaija:

Every Jehovah Witness in the World Should Watch This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJuJZHSljh8

Instead of PREACHING and TEACHING what you know about your own God and allow your listeners use their thinking faculty to see what you've got, you go about talking about other religions yet you can't PRESENT a better performing group for your listeners to compare with the religion you're castigating!

That's what i've been trying to tell you.
JWs will never cross the line to start talking about Islam since we're not on the same page, we will present our teachings, the benefits and the adherents globally, then we will ask you to go round the world perhaps you can find a better performing group!

MaxInDHouse:


This is the result of emptiness!

Instead of PREACHING and TEACHING what you know about your own God and allow your listeners use their thinking faculty to see what you've got, you go about talking about other religions yet you can't PRESENT a better performing group for your listeners to compare with the religion you're castigating!

That's what i've been trying to tell you.
JWs will never cross the line to start talking about Islam since we're not on the same page, we will present our teachings, the benefits and the adherents globally, then we will ask you to go round the world perhaps you can find a better performing group!

Calm down!

haekymbahd:
Did anyone ask for his daughter hand in marriage at that age?

If yes it proves it was the norm then

Aisha herself had already been engaged to someone else before Muhammad asked for her hand in marriage and she accepted with her family to follow the Muhammad.

There is no definite age for marriage then once they notice the girl is matured enough then they give her out for marriage so the age of maturity or puberty in ladies differs...

I didn't know the bolded.
Can you provide me the reference for this.
I thought Mohamed was the only one that asked for Aisha.

sagenaija:

Calm down!

I'm ever calm, i just want to help you know what true Christianity is all about!
Going around looking for flaws in other religions doesn't make you a preacher of the Good News of God's Kingdom. Jesus attacked the Jewish religious leaders YES! {Matthew 21:12} because they were practicing what is illegal right inside the temple where Jesus himself is coming to worship!
So Jesus and those Jewish religious leaders are supposed to be on the same page because they all worshiped in the same Jerusalem temple. John 2:18-19
You'll notice that the Samaritans were also Israelites but since they're not adhering to the Jerusalem temple arrangement Jesus had no business with them. Matthew 10:5
That's why you can't hear a single thing throughout Jesus' ministry regarding Samaritan worship.
Not until a Samaritan woman called Jesus' attention to the ongoing contention between the Jews (Southern Israelites) and Samaritans (Northern Israelites) {John 4:20} so Jesus stood firm about the one and only chosen race Jews! John 4:22

All these criticism against a totally separate religion that has nothing to do with your faith is not the duty Jesus assigned his own followers. So you're wasting your time, energy and resources (data) on what nobody sent you to do {1Corinthians 9:26} that's why i want you to stop this misdirected zeal and come to learn the truth about Christianity! Romans 10:2-4

But if you feel we are wrong then it's OK you can continue with your way of doing things but know that our own God and our own Jesus differs from yours because our own Jesus is the only begotten Son of our God who knows the best way to practice pure worship {John 14:20} therefore if you choose to practice your own Christianity in a way totally different from the foundation Jesus laid then you aren't on the same page with us! John 15:4-6

May you have PEACE!

MaxInDHouse:

I'm ever calm,
May you have PEACE!

Action speak louder than words.
Do you still have soft spot for the religion from which you came out? Just wondering. You don't need to reply.

I will try in future to look at how Apostle Paul talked about those he regarded as "false teachers", "dogs", "evil workers" and others.
I will also look at how James and Jude responded to heretics.
There is talk about "antichrists" by Apostle John.
Maybe when I am done with my study we can get back to these your comments.

Till then I advise again that you calm down.

sagenaija:

I didn't know the bolded.
Can you provide me the reference for this.
I thought Mohamed was the only one that asked for Aisha.

why not search for this online I am sure you will get materials on this..
what I am clearly saying either someone had asked her hand in marriage or not it was the norm of the society which they reside.


Luke 2
36 And there was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old, having lived with her husband seven years from her maidenhood,


Here is a bible verse showing someone who lived seven years with her husband before her maidenhood I for one can't criticize them because it was there norm at the time and they might be influenced by their culture.

Judging by today's standard on marriage that is definitely unacceptable. Infact Aisha's age is debatable as you must have known if you truly read about this topic but I don't want to go into all this...

sagenaija:

Action speak louder than words.
Do you still have soft spot for the religion from which you came out? Just wondering. You don't need to reply.
I will try in future to look at how Apostle Paul talked about those he regarded as "false teachers", "dogs", "evil workers" and others.
I will also look at how James and Jude responded to heretics.
There is talk about "antichrists" by Apostle John.
Maybe when I am done with my study we can get back to these your comments.

Till then I advise again that you calm down.

Islam is outright paganism so don't think i have anything to do with paganism anymore, once i'm done with Islam i'm done already.
But when someone thinks he's preaching for the Christ yet running after the wind then i'll call you out to tell you the TRUTH.
As for the AntiChrist that has nothing to with religions having nothing to do with Christianity rather the AntiChrist is the religions claiming Christians but going contrary to what Jesus himself laid down as rules.
Jesus is the founder of Christianity so whoever wants to practice Christianity must surrender wholeheartedly to all the commands of Christ.

Note how Apostle John puts it:


"Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort" 1John 2:18-19

According to Apostle John's letter the AntiChrist are Apostates (those claiming Christians but aren't ready to continue been obedient to the faith) so they choose to pitch their own tent elsewhere yet they are claiming Christians!

So if you want to do your research meditate thoroughly on this because Islam stands out as a religion on its own after 570 years when all the Apostles have died. If Muhammad was alive during the lifetime of the Apostles i doubt if he would start another religion. But what he found during his own time is Catholicism a religion that has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian faith yet forcing their pagan worship on people in the name of CRUSADES!

That's exactly the situation back in the days of Muhammad so how could he have known that true Christianity have nothing in common with forceful worship or three in one god?
By the year 98 ce all the pioneers of Christianity (all the Apostles and disciples who received the anointing at Pentecost) have died, many through persecution, remaining only Apostle John whom Jesus promised that he will reveal certain things to him in his oldage! John 21:20-23
So Islam has nothing to do with the AntiChrist in fact it was the attitude of the AntiChrist that prompted Muhammad to start his own religion, had it been that Christianity was like the peaceful preaching and teaching Jesus initiated as Jehovah's Witnesses are doing today, nobody would have listened to Muhammad because he failed woefully to maintain the PEACE he claimed to preach!

MaxInDHouse:

.............

Why are you so jumpy?
I said I would study and get back.
For now, calm down on that matter.

haekymbahd:
why not search for this online I am sure you will get materials on this..
what I am clearly saying either someone had asked her hand in marriage or not it was the norm of the society which they reside.

Luke 2
36 And there was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old, having lived with her husband seven years from her maidenhood,

Here is a bible verse showing someone who lived seven years with her husband before her maidenhood I for one can't criticize them because it was there norm at the time and they might be influenced by their culture.

Judging by today's standard on marriage that is definitely unacceptable. Infact Aisha's age is debatable as you must have known if you truly read about this topic but I don't want to go into all this...

You make statements and I ask you to substantiate them but you run away.

Here you are quoting Luke yet you want me to search online for a claim you made.

I hope you can see that you actually trying to run away from facing the truth.

If, like you said, someone else had asked for Aisha's hand in marriage on before she was 6 and it's now difficult for you to show us then it could be that you are just making up things and expecting us to accept them.

When you guys think that a 6 or 9 year old girl can be so emotionally mature as to know what marriage is, and physically capable to bear a child and raise that child well, then it speaks volume of how you reason.

Btw, the Luke verse DID NOT say "before maidenhood" like you wrote there. It says "from her maidenhood". It not agreeing with you that marrying a 6 or 7 year old was a norm. The emphasis there was that she lived with her husband from marriage for 7 years before he died.

There are well documented Islamic sources on Aisha's age. Only Moslems who are embarrassed by it will argue differently.

If in fact marrying an underage and immature girls were a common thing why would there not be much documented cases on it in Islam's history? Can you show us some?

How come Mohamed was at a time the one encouraging one of his aides to go for a younger bride instead of a more matured lady? I hope you about this case.

The truth is that it was not so. Mohamed wanted the best of things and he got them when he could. How come, for example, he restricted the number of women a Moslem can marry to 4 while he had about a dozen wives and an unspecified number of concubines/sex slaves?

Your claim that "Aisha herself had already been engaged to someone else before Mohamed" was just an attempt to cover the embarrassing story. Show us how it was common to have such underage marriages in Arabia.

sagenaija:

Why are you so jumpy?
I said I would study and get back.
For now, calm down on that matter.

When you hear the truth and you decides to procastinate on what you will do about it then it simply means you're not ready to accept Jesus!
No amount of your personal study can help you, once you notice that someone knows better than you do the best thing for you to do is humbly accept the truth not procastinate your salvation.
The people you're arguing with surely knows that there's something unique about Jesus but they chose to continue studying within their own sperg so the same thing you are anticipating now.
When i was a Muslim there's nothing a so called Christian believe that differs from mine:
©Heaven is the reward for the good.
©Hell is the wages for the evidoer.
©My prophet (Muhammad) is God's mouthpiece just as so called Christians say about Jesus.
©Whatever my religious teachers say i divulge.
©I wish whoever refuse to accept my faith to suffer for all eternity.
©Prayers from the mouth of my religious leaders is most precious to me.

But when i come in contact with JWs i was shocked because all these is not the case!
When i learnt anything from my teachers i must put it in my own words which became a challenge to me as i must do a thorough research to be sure that my faith is the one and only true Christian group!
Can't you see the way i defend my faith?
Have i ever quote or paste a video of my teachers for an interested person?
Very very unlike you people who always copy and paste videos of some religious teachers instead of speaking from your own conviction!

My friend, stop deceiving yourself.
You are not a Christian!

MaxInDHouse:
When you hear the truth and you decides to procastinate on what you will do about it then it simply means you're not ready to accept Jesus!

Do you accept Jesus Christ?

No amount of your personal study can help you, once you notice that someone knows better than you, the best thing for you to do is humbly accept the truth not procastinate your salvation.

So he should not procrastinate his salvation simply because YOU KNOW MORE THAN HIM

The people you're arguing with surely knows that there's something unique about Jesus but they chose to continue studying within their own sperg so the same thing you are anticipating now.

Are you not doing the same NOW as JWs?

When i was a Muslim there's nothing a so called Christian believe that differs from mine:

Lying liar;

Do you believe Jesus is the son of God?
Do you take God as a Father?
Do you believe in the Ministry of the Holy Spirit?
Do you accept Paul's teachings?
Do you believe Jesus atonement for your sin?
Do you believe you can only get to heaven ONLY through Jesus Christ?
Do you believe in the crucifixion of Jesus Christ?
Do you believe Jesus was raised to life after death?

©Heaven is the reward for the good.
©Hell is the wages for the evidoer.

Noted!

©My prophet (Muhammad) is God's mouthpiece just as so called Christians say about Jesus.

Just say as your Governing Body claim. because the last time I checked ONLY your Governing Body claim to be God's MOUTHPIECE.

©Whatever my religious teachers say i divulge.

How is this different from the group you belong to today?
Do you have any opinion contrary to their teachings?

©I wish whoever refuse to accept my faith to suffer for all eternity.

Just as who ever refuse to belong to your organization will be destroyed at Armageddon

Don't forget that!

©Prayers from the mouth of my religious leaders is most precious to me.

But does the prayers from the mouth of your Governing Body not precious to you today?

What is the difference?

But when i come in contact with JWs i was shocked because all these is not the case!

Says the lying liar JWs like his father the Devil.

*As a JWs, do you have contrary opinion to whatever your GB say?
*Do you not wish who ever refuse your faith to suffer at Armageddon?
*Do you not hold in high esteem the prayers of your GB?
*Do you not take your GB as the very MOUTHPIECE of Jehovah?

When i learnt anything from my teachers i must put it in my own words which became a challenge to me as i must do a thorough research to be sure that my faith is the one and only true Christian group!

Lying liar, yet you couldn't point out JUST ONE SINGLE ERROR from their teachings despite the fact that they didn't promise you pure spiritual meal and they are fallible.

This sobo is too watery give us another one

Can't you see the way i defend my faith?

Are you blind to see how He is defending His faith too?

Have i ever quote or paste a video of my teachers for an interested person?

You have pasted many pictures of your organization and others organizations to prove a point, so he had video to be posted to prove a point, so what is the difference?

Very very unlike you people who always copy and paste videos of some religious teachers instead of speaking from your own conviction!

After posting a video at the beginning of this thread, he continues to speak from his own conviction, so what is your problem?

Hypocrite! When you post numerous pictures of your organization to pass a massage is OK for you but when others do it, you must castigate it just because it doesn't suit with your myopic mind.

My friend, stop deceiving yourself.
You are not a Christian!

I can see that you're the one Jesus handed the book of those who are Christians to

sagenaija:
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You make statements and I ask you to substantiate them but you run away.

I already told you it was a norm in their society, since Aisha herself hasn't said anything negative about her marriage that she was forced or maltreated and she also played a vital role in propagation of Islam...


Muhammad was a human not a father to his followers he was given a message and he delivered it. You can either accept or reject the message for now billions of humans from different culture and backgrounds have embraced Islam if you feel otherwise why don't you just face your religion are you insecure in your faith..

It is a choice for everyone no one is forcing you to accept Islam or Muhammad as the last prophet..



Allah SWT said:

"Respond to your Lord before a Day comes from Allah of which there is no repelling. No refuge will you have that day, nor for you will there be any denial."
(QS. Ash-Shura 42: Verse 47)

"But if they turn away - then We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], over them as a guardian; upon you is only [the duty of] notification. And indeed, when We let man taste mercy from us, he rejoices in it; but if evil afflicts him for what his hands have put forth, then indeed, man is ungrateful."
(QS. Ash-Shura 42: Verse 48)

haekymbahd:
I already told you it was a norm in their society, since Aisha herself hasn't said anything negative about her marriage that she was forced or maltreated and she also played a vital role in propagation of Islam...

Muhammad was a human not a father to his followers he was given a message and he delivered it. You can either accept or reject the message for now billions of humans from different culture and backgrounds have embraced Islam if you feel otherwise why don't you just face your religion are you insecure in your faith..

It is a choice for everyone no one is forcing you

Actually I've made my choice for the man of Galilee who had no stain in his life - Jesus Christ.
He said:
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
John 14:6 NIV

I choose to go with the one who was very CONFIDENT of where he came from and where he was going back to. Who never spoke from both sides of the mouth. His 'Yes' was 'Yes' and not ambiguous. He didn't need the SWORD to succeed. He didn't need to force people to believe in him or kill those who opposed him whether verbally or physically. He stood for peace and still gives that peace today.

The Bible says that:
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”
Acts 4:12 NIV

Additional goodnews:
that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”
John 3:15 NIV