kabe1:


South-Africa never had the capacity to build on the 12 units of Rooivalk that were manufactured.

They don't have the technical expertise, finance or political leverage to make the Rooivalk work.

The Rooivalk would be subject to heavy economic sanctions from it's original equipment manufacturers in Europe and America.

As hard as it might sound, the aircraft was doomed for failure, it was never a leadership problem.

kabe1:


This has to be the most ignorant comment I've read this year.

The Rooivalk is based on and relies heavily on components and technical expertise from the EU. Especially France.

Why shouldn't Nigerians demand that we build our own?

The benefits in skills, economics and technical expertise are endless.

So why shouldn't we demand it?

QuietMynd:

Very pathetic.
The 200:4000 man.
Living in alternate universe

jl115:

"From just after 16:00 on Friday 22 March until about 21:00 on Sunday 24 March, about 200
South African soldiers fought a series of running battles outside Bangui in the Central African
Republic (CAR) against a well-armed Seleka force of several thousand, that has since been
estimated at between 4 000 and 7 000"

http://parabat.org.za/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/The_Battle_in_Bangui_-_The_Untold_Inside_Story.pdf

QuietMynd:

I would have believed it but the source is the reason for the trust issue

jl115:
Denel is the OEM of the Rooivalk....hell the first Rooivalk protype was built under heavy sanctions from the west same with the Oryx..... You simply have a problem with anything South African hence you go above and beyond to spew nonsense that you obviously know nothing about.

kabe1:


You're telling yourself lies. Shocking thing is you believe those lies.

kabe1:
But – and this is a very important point – South Africa could not design and build a complete helicopter from scratch. The design, development and manufacture of the necessary powerplant and dynamics system (rotor head, main and tail rotors, and main and tail gearboxes) were beyond this country’s capabilities. Acquiring such capabilities would have been extremely time consuming and incredibly expensive, rendering the project totally impractical. So the new machine had to be based on an existing design, as far as its power plants and dynamics were concerned.

At the time, the SAAF operated two main helicopter types – the Aerospatiale (formerly Sud Aviation, now Eurocopter) Alouette III and the Aerospatiale Puma. The Alouette III could not possibly form the basis of a credible attack helicopter – it was not just that it was small, but its powerplant and dynamics system were 1960s technology, clearly outdated, and lacking in power. (An Alouette III powerplant and dynamics system were used as the basis for an engineering and development capability demonstrator for Atlas – now Denel – as a precursor to the Rooivalk programme; designated the Alpha XH-1, it first flew in 1984 and is today preserved at the SAAF Museum at[/b] Air Force Base Swartkops, Pretoria.)

Athough the Puma was larger and more powerful than the Alouette III, it had already been displaced on the French production line by its bigger and more powerful offspring, the Super Puma, which first flew in late 1978. This led to South Africa’s developing and successfully executing a project to produce a new helicopter that was a hybrid of the Puma and the Super Puma – the Denel Oryx. The Oryx has a fuselage that is longer than that of the Puma but shorter than that of the Super Puma, and was fitted with the powerplants, dynamics systems, and tail boom of the Super Puma (later, military versions of the Super Puma were redesignated Cougar).

The result was and is a helicopter with a greater payload and range capability than the Puma and a greater power-to-weight ratio than the Super Puma/Cougar. In consequence, the Oryx is an ideal transport helicopter for the hot temperatures and high altitudes frequently found in Southern Africa.

The Oryx was developed in parallel with the Rooivalk prototypes. Being simpler and cheaper than the Rooivalk, the Oryx programme was completed much more rapidly, the helicopter being unveiled in 1991, and has been the SAAF’s transport helicopter ever since. Thus it was proposed that the Super Puma powerplants and dynamics systems, being made in South Africa for the Oryx programme, be used as the basis for the planned attack helicopter.

At least one engineer is known to have proposed that the attack helicopter be based on the engines and dynamics system of the Aerospatiale Dauphin, an intermediate- (light/medium) size helicopter with good manoeuvreability and power, which would have resulted in a smaller, more rapidly developed, and more economical (to develop, buy and operate) system.

[b]As the French were allowing South Africa to use the powerplants and dynamics of the Super Puma, they would surely have agreed to the South Africans using the same elements from the Dauphin. However, the SAAF felt that using the same engines and dynamics as the Oryx would simplify logistics and reduce maintenance costs, so the decision was made to use the Super Puma system


This is a key reason in Denel’s failure to export the aircraft. No one will buy a warplane whose avionics system is based on 20-year-old computers.

Then there is the cost of the aircraft – the direct result of both attempting to make it a world beater and depriving it of eco-nomies of scale by cutting the order to only 12. “The unit cost of the Rooivalk is about $40- million,” says Heitman. This makes it as expensive as the Boeing Apache and the Eurocopter Tiger, the latest models of which have state-of-the-art avionics, and much more expensive than the smaller AgustaWestland Mangusta/Mongoose, and the Russian Mi-24/35 family.

Export possibilities have been further reduced by foreign worries about the long-term viability of Denel: will the company still be around in 20 years to continue to support the Rooivalk, if they should buy it? And then there is the fact that the Rooivalk is very heavily dependent on French technology, now the property of Eurocopter, yet Denel tried to export the Rooivalk not only without Eurocopter’s prior agreement and support, but actually in open competition (for example, in Australia) with Eurocopter’s own Tiger.


https://m.engineeringnews.co.za/article/what-went-wrong-with-the-rooivalk-2007-06-08-1

jl115:

It's from Denels own website you muppet

"Rooivalk Attack Helicopter (AH-2A) is a Denel product. Denel Aeronautics a subsidiary of the Denel is the Design Authority and Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM)."

kabe1:


This has to be the most ignorant comment I've read this year.

The Rooivalk is based on and relies heavily on components and technical expertise from the EU. Especially France.

Why shouldn't Nigerians demand that we build our own?

The benefits in skills, economics and technical expertise are endless.

So why shouldn't we demand it?

kabe1:


And then there is the fact that the Rooivalk is very heavily dependent on French technology.

You're lying to yourself.

jl115:
is Denel lying?

"Rooivalk Attack Helicopter (AH-2A) is a Denel product. Denel Aeronautics a subsidiary of the Denel is the Design Authority and Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM)."

http://www.denelaeronautics.co.za/products--services/rooivalk-oem

iblawi:


I don't know why you guys are bringing up this argument again after several attempt of claiming technology that isn't yours.

Rooivalk and orxy are based on puma helicopter which you also agreed to. The engine and other critical components are also not your.

Same with several other technologies. Most of the components are also from Europe.

Hope we won't have this same argument again next year again.

iblawi:


I don't know why you guys are bringing up this argument again after several attempt of claiming technology that isn't yours.

Rooivalk and orxy are based on puma helicopter which you also agreed to. The engine and other critical components are also not your.

Same with several other technologies. Most of the components are also from Europe.

Hope we won't have this same argument again next year again.

kabe1:
The guided paveway bomb used by the RAF costs 30k pounds.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdM9WQFSqf0

RiceProducers:

Nigeria has Paveway II

RiceProducers:

Nigeria has Paveway II

kabe1:


That's very expensive.

The amount spent on guided munitions is no child's play. Fighting a war is expensive.

kabe1:


That's very expensive.

The amount spent on guided munitions is no child's play. Fighting a war is expensive.

jl115:
well in that case u should shut the fvck up because you have no idea what a proper source is then.....since Dr Heitman is one of the most respected Defence journalists in the world.

About the author:

"Dr Helmoed Römer Heitman worked with the non-statutory forces and political parties in the run up to the 1996
Defence White paper, and worked on the 1998 Defence Review. He has since worked with the
SA Army Vision 2020 team, advised the Navy on the potential of large multi-role vessels and
developed a new wing structure for the Air Force. He served on the Resource Group of the
Defence Review Committee from 2011 to 2013. Helmoed holds Economics and Public
Administration degrees from the University of Cape Town, an MA in War Studies from
King’s College, University of London and Management Diplomas from Stellenbosch
University’s Graduate School of Business, and passed the junior staff course of the
SA Army College. He has written six books and three minor titles on defence
matters, drawn up more than 120 papers and studies, presented papers at
more than sixty defence conferences and published more than 500 articles
on defence matters in defence journals, other periodicals and
newspapers in South Africa and in other countries."

QuietMynd:
[s][/s]
Just see the unrequested thesis u re giving me.
I will rather believe a French man narrative of the encounter because he was on ground that day. Than a man that was thousands of kilometres away.
Sorry mate, we all aren't wired the same way.
Our thinking levels differs man, no need to take it personal.

jl115:
Seems like you have difficulty reading also....nobody claimed the rooivalk and oryx aren't based of the Puma.....but that does not change the fact that Denel is the OEM for the Rooivalk and Oryx and still manufactures all the parts and spares....hence the argument of being susceptible to EU sanctions is nul and void.

iblawi:


please we need details of the parts and spares produced by Denel.

To the best of my knowledge SA haven't produced car engine not to talk of helicopter engine. Till date less than 6 countries can produce an helicopter without getting key components like engines from another country.

SA is nowhere close to the bolded above.

jl115:
obviously never heard of Atlantis Diesel Engines.....

Anyway don't take it from me...... Take it from Denel :

"Rooivalk Attack Helicopter (AH-2A) is a Denel product. Denel Aeronautics a subsidiary of the Denel is the Design Authority and Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM)."

Atlantis Diesel Engines/ Engineering (ADE) is a South African manufacturer of diesel engines and components, notably for the mining, on and off road applications as well as defense force industries. The company operates from Atlantis, Western Cape, South Africa.

The company was started by the Government of South Africa following the imposition of United Nations Security Council Resolution 418. The company was licensed in 1979 to manufacture Mercedes Benz and Perkins diesel engines, which were primarily destined for military vehicles such as the Ratel IFV, Buffel, Casspir and SAMIL Trucks. The original ADE ceased in 1999 due to insolvency, however DaimlerChrysler (now Daimler AG) purchased the foundry portion and later in 2002 the machining facilities, crankshaft line and business park. In 2015 Daimler AG sold Atlantis Foundries to Neue Halberg-Guss GmbH. The Foundry is still in full operation today and continues to cast heavy-duty engine blocks for Mercedes-Benz trucks. Atlantis Foundries is the sole supplier of the 14.8l HDEP Cylinder block to Daimler, and supply 80% of the total demand for the 12.8l version. These heavy-duty blocks are used in the Freightliner, Western Star, Fuso Super Great and Mercedes-Benz Actros trucks worldwide.

iblawi:

jl115:
OK and?