JMAN05:


He created free moral agents. If your conception of a God is one who creates robots whose scripts are already written, that is not for our heavenly Father. He didn't purpose them for doom, but He is pained that humans have chosen a wrong course and are still inclined to do more harm. That is the reason for the regret. He is not regretting because He created a faulty humans. He did create perfect ones, who has a greater possibility for good. But since they are free moral agents, they chose bad.

Of course if God had wanted to predestine them, these won't happen, problems won't come up, but that would be funny because they would only be acting out a role. It won't be their choice. In fact, that was never Gods goal, to create people ruled by fate. Nope.

We are made in His image. He isn't ruled by fate.



God would have to predestine things if he wanted to peer through the future of uncreated humans.

It is true we can't measure up to His higher qualities. But we are still made in His image. Such analogy is thus fitting.

Secondly, God himself uses humans as a picture of who He is, His love, care and etc. Eg Ezek 34:12




Lol. It appears you do have a wrong view of perfection. When I grew up in the churches, I did have such distorted view too. Perfection is perfection. In other words, such person can never make a mistake. Well, the scriptures leaves us with a different definition of perfection.

The bible does not portray a perfect person as one who cannot sin. Such person is perfect in that he doesn't have a sin by creation. No bad inclination. But he is still a free moral agent, who might in his personal choices want to try a route contrary to that of God. That would become sin, and its wages is death. Any who said that a perfect person cannot sin will have to contend with the scripture since its record shows the opposite. Adam was perfect, but he sinned. Satan was perfect, but he sinned. They are all free moral agents. God didn't predestine them. This may be new to you. It was formerly new to me too.

Secondly, Adam knew Gods own standard of what was bad and what was good. God had told them, be caretaker and dominate all I have created, fill the earth with your offsprings, do not eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Doing this, is what is good, and not doing it, is what is bad. They knew.

Thirdly, not peering to the future isn't a mistake. He was creating perfect free moral agents. Why peer, when he simply can create predestined humans? If you want to create people who will choose whatever they want to do with there life, then you go ahead and create them. And these creation have more possibility to do good than for bad. So why would He worry Himself. Another point is, He had made angels in heaven to be perfect too, and these angels have lived in heaven under Gods rulership for perhaps millions of years. So why be paranoid when creating humans?

Again, will he kill Adam after creating him if he knows he won't choose to obey him and recreate another? Or peer through before creating? That would be predestination since the plan is still in His head.

The thing is, perfect humans with there ability to chose is what God wanted to create, and which He did.




Visit wikipedia on omniscience.



Like I did say before, individuals can have a concept of God that appeals to them. You seem to have a different view of what a god should be. That's OK.

What I have learned is, even if God chose to be total omniscient, it won't stop some from attacking Him. Most likely, that won't make you change from disbelief in a God. Or hate Him. In fact, you will RIGHTLY do so, since he had made you so that you will become an atheist. Since you will be acting out a script.

That does not define my God. And I love Him for that. At least, someone who commits immorality won't say God predestined him that way. Nope, he would be responsible for his own fate. That's sweet if you ask me!

We don't need to stress this further by typing epistles. If God created free moral agents as you have claimed, why then would he want free moral agents to behave in a particular way? Does that make sense to you?

Akin1212:


We don't need to stress this further by typing epistles. If God created free moral agents as you have claimed, why then would he want free moral agents to behave in a particular way? Does that make sense to you?

Have you forgotten that their God has no regard for LOGIC ?
So He can act illogically at will.

HellVictorinho:

Have you forgotten that their God has no regard for LOGIC ?
So He can act illogically at will.

Lmao

For more on concrete saws: http://rumandcokewhore.tumblr.com

For more on concrete saws: http://latueries.tumblr.com

HellVictorinho:

God's identity is that of a heartless being that is ever-ready to involve Man in his childish games with Satan despite knowing that Man is an amateur.

Really? If you take your version of God from the Book of Job perhaps and completely disregard everything else written about God.

Have you tried a Gospel God, where God appears to have grown up and satan is said to "depart from him" when confronted with superior reasoning?

budaatum:

Really? If you take your version of God from the Book of Job perhaps and completely disregard everything else written about God.

Have you tried a Gospel God, where God appears to have grown up and satan is said to "depart from him" when confronted with superior reasoning?

Even the gospel god is a wimp. It waits for wolves to break in and enter to kill steal and destroy. What powerful well meaning shepard waits for wolves to come to his door instead of hiring hunters to go kill the wolves?

LordReed:


Even the gospel god is a wimp. It waits for wolves to break in and enter to kill steal and destroy. What powerful well meaning shepard waits for wolves to come to his door instead of hiring hunters to go kill the wolves?

I didn't find that in my Gospel! Mind telling where you read this please so I can too?

You'd have done much better if you'd said it turns the other cheek, mind.

budaatum:

I didn't find that in my Gospel! Mind telling where you read this please so I can too?

You'd have done much better if you'd said it turns the other cheek, mind.

Read John 10.

I am not sure that is wimpy behaviour, especially if the person clearly has the power to rip you apart.

LordReed:


Read John 10.

My Lord! We both know you are way more smarter than this! Even many of the Jews who were there listening to him said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?” Does that not show Jesus was not talking literally, or at the least, wasn't taken literally by those there hearing him? He sure wasn't literally describing God now, or do you want to take the position that he was?

LordReed:

I am not sure that is wimpy behaviour, especially if the person clearly has the power to rip you apart.

One doesn't turn the other cheek then rip apart!

budaatum:

My Lord! We both know you are way more smarter than this! Even many of the Jews who were there listening to him said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?” Does that not show Jesus was not talking literally, or at the least, wasn't taken literally by those there hearing him? He sure wasn't literally describing God now, or do you want to take the position that he was?

Of course its not literal, were you reading my post as literal?

One doesn't turn the other cheek then rip apart!

Exactly.

LordReed:
Of course its not literal, were you reading my post as literal?

I think I might have. Though, anyway I look at what you wrote still doesn't quite work, but I'm very certain the errors is mine and not my smart Lord's.

So, enlighten me please so I too can be smart like you. Which god waits for wolves to break in? Or how exactly was the following meant:

LordReed:


Even the gospel god is a wimp. It waits for wolves to break in and enter to kill steal and destroy. What powerful well meaning shepard waits for wolves to come to his door instead of hiring hunters to go kill the wolves?

XxSabrinaxX:

That means he was not 100% omniscient at the time of creation, although he may be now.

HAHAHA

budaatum:


I think I might have. Though, anyway I look at what you wrote still doesn't quite work, but I'm very certain the errors is mine and not my smart Lord's.

So, enlighten me please so I too can be smart like you. Which god waits for wolves to break in? Or how exactly was the following meant:

You read John 10 right? Is there any where there that the god says it will prevent the thief from entering into the sheepfold?

LordReed:

You read John 10 right? Is there any where there that the god says it will prevent the thief from entering into the sheepfold?

I did read John 10, my Lord, and think the following qualifies as "preventing the thief from entering into the sheepfold":

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

And,

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Or do you not think so?

budaatum:

I did read John 10, my Lord, and think the following qualifies as "preventing the thief from entering into the sheepfold":

16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

And,

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Or do you not think so?

The statements are so passive I wanna puke. LoL.

So the thief gets free reign until some unknown time when the so called sheep are gathered? Is that how shepards keep sheep? Wait until some undefined time before they are secure? Or they take action as the need arises?

Abeg please remember this is just an exercise o don't take it literally. LoL

LordReed:


The statements are so passive I wanna puke. LoL.

So the thief gets free reign until some unknown time when the so called sheep are gathered? Is that how shepherds keep sheep? Wait until some undefined time before they are secure? Or they take action as the need arises?

Abeg please remember this is just an exercise o don't take it literally. LoL

There really is grave error in taking parts of scripture and not the whole of it, my Lord. It's like grabbing an elephant's leg and thinking it's a tree! And using John, the most illiteral and mystical Gospel of them all, does not make for easy understanding at all, I daresay.

So, let's try another way, shall we. What Jesus is claiming in John 10 is anyone who follows what he taught would not be harmed. That doesn't mean one wouldn't fall ill or die or even be eaten by wolfs, but that the Lord will be your shepherd and you will be given (or at least, have), everything that you need.

I just got off the phone to a supplier of a device that I require to keep me functioning. I've been using this device for three years now only to find out today that every couple of weeks that I place an order for it I get product worth £600. Imagine if I had to pay that twice a month out of my own earnings! Payment for it comes out of the cloud, is what it seems like.

This morning, I got a letter from my bank claiming I was in debt for 2800k. I rolled over in bed and fell asleep since I had been up all night, then about 2pm I made a call to those who pay me and got fobbed off, so I sent an email to them instead. The response I got read, "sorry buda, we appear to have made an error", and they paid me the 2800k plus another grand to say they are very sorry. Can you see how I could very easily claim "The Lord is my shepherd who gives me everything I require"?

But, okay, none of this proves anything I guess, except if "being shepherded by God" means allowing wisdom to rule ones life, that's if it's accepted that I might come close. I can assure you that I wisely dealt with what I was faced with, not worrying about a thing because I was wise enough not to because - and I must say perhaps here - I had Wisdom in my life.

Now, imagine if Jesus Christ meant Wisdom, after all, this was one attribute he exhibited all through his life, be it real or mythical, can you perhaps see the benefit here? I'm sure you'd not claim I wasn't at least a tenth worths wise from what you know of me, or would you, my Lord?

One must see past the religious junk that cloaks what is called God and Jesus Christ, is my point or one would not understand the KoG. And it's got nothing to do with believing as some claim, but understanding and knowing what is meant by it all, a thing I find to be scarce amongst the multitude. I do put it to you all the same that blessed are some, and to them is the Kingdom of God.

I've tried to make this self explanatory, but would quite understand if my point is unclear, for as I said here, I am but a child with childish ways and thoughts who sees dimly through dark glass, yet to become a full grown adult. I tell you the truth that every day I grow older and leave my childish ways. You wouldn't argue I'd be grown up someday. Surely you wouldn't, my Lord.

budaatum:

There really is grave error in taking parts of scripture and not the whole of it, my Lord. It's like grabbing an elephant's leg and thinking it's a tree! And using John, the most illiteral and mystical Gospel of them all, does not make for easy understanding at all, I daresay.

So, let's try another way, shall we. What Jesus is claiming in John 10 is anyone who follows what he taught would not be harmed. That doesn't mean one wouldn't fall ill or die or even be eaten by wolfs, but that the Lord will be your shepherd and you will be given (or at least, have), everything that you need.

I just got off the phone to a supplier of a device that I require to keep me functioning. I've been using this device for three years now only to find out today that every couple of weeks that I place an order for it I get product worth £600. Imagine if I had to pay that twice a month out of my own earnings! Payment for it comes out of the cloud, is what it seems like.

This morning, I got a letter from my bank claiming I was in debt for 2800k. I rolled over in bed and fell asleep since I had been up all night, then about 2pm I made a call to those who pay me and got fobbed off, so I sent an email to them instead. The response I got read, "sorry buda, we appear to have made an error", and they paid me the 2800k plus another grand to say they are very sorry. Can you see how I could very easily claim "The Lord is my shepherd who gives me everything I require"?

But, okay, none of this proves anything I guess, except if "being shepherded by God" means allowing wisdom to rule ones life, that's if it's accepted that I might come close. I can assure you that I wisely dealt with what I was faced with, not worrying about a thing because I was wise enough not to because - and I must say perhaps here - I had Wisdom in my life.

Now, imagine if Jesus Christ meant Wisdom, after all, this was one attribute he exhibited all through his life, be it real or mythical, can you perhaps see the benefit here? I'm sure you'd not claim I wasn't at least a tenth worths wise from what you know of me, or would you, my Lord?

One must see past the religious junk that cloaks what is called God and Jesus Christ, is my point or one would not understand the KoG. And it's got nothing to do with believing as some claim, but understanding and knowing what is meant by it all, a thing I find to be scarce amongst the multitude. I do put it to you all the same that blessed are some, and to them is the Kingdom of God.

I've tried to make this self explanatory, but would quite understand if my point is unclear, for as I said here, I am but a child with childish ways and thoughts who sees dimly through dark glass, yet to become a full grown adult. I tell you the truth that every day I grow older and leave my childish ways. You wouldn't argue I'd be grown up someday. Surely you wouldn't, my Lord.

You've not showed to me how the god is not a wimp.

LordReed:


You've not showed to me how the god is not a wimp.

But I don't intend to, my Lord! Especially if you cannot see for yourself. If I did, you next ask me to show you God expecting me to whip God out of my knickers to show you!

What you likely need is spat on mud rubbed in your eyes so you can see. Or was I not blind too just a couple of months ago and now see, if a little, my Lord?

budaatum:

But I don't intend to, my Lord! Especially if you cannot see for yourself. If I did, you next ask me to show you God expecting me to whip God out of my knickers to show you!

What you likely need is spat on mud rubbed in your eyes so you can see. Or was I not blind too just a couple of months ago and now see, if a little, my Lord?

My dear buda you were the one who countered my argument that the gospel god is a wimp, it behoves you to show your basis for such a counter.

LordReed:


My dear buda you were the one who countered my argument that the gospel god is a wimp, it behoves you to show your basis for such a counter.

I never disputed your God is a wimp statement! The word used in the Bible is "meek and gentle", and I even gave you biblical ammunition for it. My one objection is you assuming wimpishness is a negative attribute. It isn't, necessarily bad to wimpishly turn the other cheek.

budaatum:

I never disputed your God is a wimp statement! The word used in the Bible is "meek and gentle", and I even gave you biblical ammunition for it. My one objection is you assuming wimpishness is a negative attribute. It isn't, necessarily bad to wimpishly turn the other cheek.

Ah its good then.

[quote]
It is the combination of omniscience and omnipotence that contradicts free will.

God's omnipotence means that he had the power to design the world such that every human would make any particular set of decisions every step of the way. By designing the world the way he did, and having the foreknowledge of every single one of the trillions of trillions of decisions that would be made based on each detail of design, god necessarily determined (and effectively decreed) every single one of those decisions that every human would make. The only way he could not have is if he temporarily restricted his own omnipotence and/or omniscience at the point of creation. There seems to be no credible theist who has provided evidence that god turned down either of those characteristics.

[The bible doesn't support any claim that God tone down his omniscience ability for FREEWILL. Is like shifting the goal post when a goal is about to be scored.]

[quote author=Vic2Ree post=74519892]You cause what God knows based on your choices, because God can’t know what you do unless you do it. You aren’t restricted by what God knows, God’s knowledge is restricted by what you do. It is logically fallacious to say God knowing something negates the possibility of choice, this commits the modal logic fallacy. He only knows the things you do because you do them, and him knowing does not negate choice. This isn’t some apologetics hand-waving to justify beliefs, this is proven logic by unbiased sources.


[You dealt with it like an academic exercise. But your position as good as it looks, is not what the scripture teaches. Is like shifting the goal post. When you sensed an opponent will soon score a goal, you ran away with the goal post. The bible said, before you were conceived, i knew you. I am the Alpha and Omega. The bible at every junction categorically claimed God knows everything in every details. I am not asking for personal opinions, because we only know God through the bible, you don't know him personally. There is no where the bible accepted this your famous claim "because God can’t know what you do unless you do it. You aren’t restricted by what God knows, God’s knowledge is restricted by what you do" It is a FALLACY carved to support God.]. According to the bible, nothing restricts God knowledge.

[quote author=TheArranger post=74519860]Just to clarify, I am not debating free will in general, as that is a completely different topic.

God's plan, put simply, is that we would be tested on Earth, and those of us who were good would go to heaven. I have always been told that this includes us having free will. However, God is said to be omnipotent. If God can see the future, than it is predetermined, and therefore, we can't have free will. If we don't have free will, God is knowingly sending people towards damnation, is he not?

In my opinion God's omnipotence contradicts the requirement for free will in God's plan.

Cc. Ranchhoddas, budaatum, OtemAtum, LordReed, jesusjnr, Michellekabod1, luvmijeje, finalboss, TATIME, MuttleyLaff, JMAN05, HellVictorinho, HardMirror, Akin1212, XxSabrinaxX, vaxx, ihedinobi3, Dantedasz, Rebekkah


[You're correct, it did contradict it don't mind all these people shifting the goal post here. They are all making claims the bible didn't support.
The bible at all junctions make it clear God knows the beginning from the end. Before your mother conceived you, i knew you. I am the Alpha and Omega. How can you be the beginning and the end if you don't know both end - end. God was able to predict the future in details at different points in the bible. And there is no where the bible also support the claimed that God toned down his ability to know for FREEWILL.
People have to stop using mystery to resolve mystery. It is better you say, I don't know. You mustn't resolve all contradictions you find in your religion. All religion have unreconcilable contradictions. Well you can resolve them if you insist. All you need to do is come up with implausible case scenarios that are not necessarily true. How is it helpful to do that. ]

Sirsesan:
God's plan, put simply, is that we would be tested on Earth, and those of us who were good would go to heaven.

Sorry Sir, but since you mentioned buda, I better correct you.

You've taken this your God plan from a book written by human beings who told you it was God's plan, but if you read more widely, you'd understand why humans wrote that plan for themselves and for your very self too. It's a very good plan.

Please read here What Happens When buda Dies. And consider your hell or heaven is right here on this earth and you are in one or the other while you live.

LordReed:


You've not showed to me how the god is not a wimp.

Lol, my Lord. I'd say you got toked.

budaatum:


Lol, my Lord. I'd say you got toked.

Still on that high my dear buda!

LordReed:


Still on that high my dear buda!

Lol, my Lord. I could not help making fun at your growth.

I can't say about some imaginary God, but I can say the God Book is one of human's greatest inventions if understood instead of stupidly ignorantly believed.

budaatum:


Lol, my Lord. I could not help making fun at your growth.

I can't say about some imaginary God, but I can say the God Book is one of human's greatest inventions if understood instead of stupidly ignorantly believed.

I dunno about greatest invention but I am coming round to the idea that like Aesop's Fables it has some value. I still prefer Aesop's though.

LordReed:


I dunno about greatest invention but I am coming round to the idea that like Aesop's Fables it has some value. I still prefer Aesop's though.

They are both of equal value, my Lord.

Due to the proliferation of the God Book I'd place it before Aesop's, though Aesop has a slight edge too since it removes belief, as no sane minded individual would believe in talking animals.

They both teach us to evolve into better human beings here on this earth, but knowing human nature, one offers an imaginary reward as motivation.

Here's a link to some of Aesop's lessons, for those who can not read. Those who read their God Book will see the similarities.

Aesop should be on every pre-teen's reading list.

budaatum:


They are both of equal value, my Lord.

Due to the proliferation of the God Book I'd place it before Aesop's, though Aesop has a slight edge too since it removes belief, as no sane minded individual would believe in talking animals.

They both teach us to evolve into better human beings here on this earth, but knowing human nature, one offers an imaginary reward as motivation.

Here's a link to some of Aesop's lessons, for those who can not read. Those who read their God Book will see the similarities.

Aesop should be on every pre-teen's reading list.

Seriously. I gonna look for a hard copy for my daughter.