Kobojunkie:
Nope! My comment was regarding the 11 who were then commanded to go out into the world, this in Matthew 28 , Mark 16 and Luke 24. There were 11 of then after Judas left the click.

Yes those 11 represented Christ after he left.

tctrills:

A few things here,
Luke 6:12-16
13 At daybreak he called together all of his disciples and chose twelve of them to be apostles. Here are their names

So we see that he chose them out of his disciples and gave them special power and authority.

They were clearly set apart from all his other followers.

God is the one who gave Jesus Christ the twelve, this from God's Old Covenant flock, to work with.

.....
6 “You gave me some people from the world. I have shown them what you are like. They belonged to you, and you gave them to me. They have obeyed your teaching.
7 Now they know that everything I have came from you.
8 I told them the words you gave me, and they accepted them. They realized the fact that I came from you and believed that you sent me.
9 I pray for them now. I am not praying for the people in the world. But I am praying for these people you gave me, because they are yours.
10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And my glory is seen in them.

11 "Now I am coming to you. I will not stay in the world, but these followers of mine are still in the world. Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of your name—the name you gave me. Then they will be one, just as you and I are one.
12 While I was with them, I kept them safe by the power of your name—the name you gave me. I protected them. And only one of them was lost—the one who was sure to be lost. This was to show the truth of what the Scriptures said would happen. - John 17 vs 1 - 12

Recall, Jesus had said in John 6 vs 37 that everyone the Father gives to Him, He will in no wise cast out.

Nothing stopped God from giving Jesus Christ more after the first 12 11, but the 11 got all of the teachings from Him and were then sent out to teach the world all He had taught to them.

Kobojunkie:
God is the one who gave Jesus Christ the twelve, this from God's Old Covenant flock, to work with.
Recall, Jesus had said in John 6 vs 37 that everyone the Father gives to Him, He will in no wise cast out.

Nothing stopped God from giving Jesus Christ more after the first 12 11, but the 11 got all of the teachings from Him and were then sent out to teach the world all He had taught to them.

You are basically making my point. My point is Christ set up an organization and gave some power and authority. And when he left, he gave them responsibility over the sheep. Remember, 3 times he called Peter and instructed him, "Feed my Sheep." That is basically his church.
So unless you don't trust Christ''s Judgement in choosing apostles to lead his people when he left and in giving them authority.

tctrills:
1. You are basically making my point. My point is Christ set up an organization and gave some power and authority. And when he left, he gave them responsibility over the sheep. Remember, 3 times he called Peter and instructed him, "Feed my Sheep." That is basically his church.
So unless you don't trust Christ''s Judgement in choosing apostles to lead his people when he left and in giving them authority.

We are so not saying the same things at all. ..
1. Christ said He will build His own Church. So whatever organization He supposedly built, with Him as the Vine, has absolutely nothing to do with us.

2. Jesus Christ never gave responsibility over His sheep to any man, not even Peter. In John 10 vs 1 - 16, Jesus Christ explained that that role belongs only to Him, the one and only Shepherd over His flock - every other man is a worker, a servant.

The commands Jesus Christ gave people to do in John 21 vs 15 - 20 are the very same works of righteousness given to all followers of Jesus Christ in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 40, some of the very same works we are expected to do if we are to let our light shine Isaiah 58 vs 6 - 13 just as He commanded of us all.

■feed my Sheep
▪︎ when they are hungry, give them food to eat
▪︎ when they are thirst, give them drink
■ Take care of my Sheep
▪︎ when they are naked, clothe them
▪︎ when they are homeless, welcome them into your own home
▪︎ when they are sick, care for then
▪︎ when they are in prison, visit them

So, no, his conversation with Peter was nothing about His Church, but instead about the work set before every individual who would chose to become a follower of Jesus Christ and enter into His Heaven, the same New Covenant agreement that exists between God and individuals - Matthew 26 vs 28 - 30.

Kobojunkie:
We are so not saying the same things at all. ..
1. Christ said He will build His own Church. So whatever organization He supposedly built, with Him as the Vine, has absolutely nothing to do with us.

2. Jesus Christ never gave responsibility over His sheep to any man, not even Peter. In John 10 vs 1 - 16, Jesus Christ explained that that role belongs only to Him, the one and only Shepherd over His flock - every other man is a worker, a servant.

The commands Jesus Christ gave people to do in John 21 vs 15 - 20 are the very same works of righteousness given to all followers of Jesus Christ in Matthew 25 vs 31 - 40, some of the very same works we are expected to do if we are to let our light shine Isaiah 58 vs 6 - 13 just as He commanded of us all.

■feed my Sheep
▪︎ when they are hungry, give them food to eat
▪︎ when they are thirst, give them drink
■ Take care of my Sheep
▪︎ when they are naked, clothe them
▪︎ when they are homeless, welcome them into your own home
▪︎ when they are sick, care for then
▪︎ when they are in prison, visit them

So, no, his conversation with Peter was nothing about His Church, but instead about the work set before every individual who would chose to become a follower of Jesus Christ and enter into His Heaven, the same New Covenant agreement that exists between God and individuals - Matthew 26 vs 28 - 30.

If I may get you, your point is that the Apostles illegally to up power over the church, they were not sent but they took the power upon themselves. Is That your point.

tctrills:

If I may get you, your point is that the Apostles illegally to up power over the church, they were not sent but they took the power upon themselves. Is That your point.

Your interpretation of what is written of the works done by the 11 in the book of Acts is not the same as mine at all.

Kobojunkie:
Your interpretation of what is written of the works done by the 11 in the book of Acts is not the same as mine at all.

I don't think I am understanding you. or did you not understand my question.

tctrills:

I don't think I am understanding you. or did you not understand my question.

What is it about my response that you didn't understand?

Kobojunkie:
What is it about my response that you didn't understand?

You seem to be discrediting the Apostles as impostors who took leadership of the church without the direction of Jesus Christ. Is that what you are saying?

tctrills:
1. You seem to be discrediting the Apostles as impostors who took leadership of the church without the direction of Jesus Christ. Is that what you are saying?

I never did any such.

As I said, your interpretation/perception of what you read of the 11 in the book of Acts is probably from the fact that you see them as leaders over Jesus Christ's sheep. I don't see what you see because I know Jesus Christ never gave any man such authority to begin with - Jesus Christ is God's Truth.

Kobojunkie:
What is it about my response that you didn't understand?

Let's look at Acts 8:14
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
We see that the Apostles had the power to give Holy Ghost through the laying on of their hands.

Kobojunkie:
I never did any such.

As I said, your interpretation/perception of what you read of the 11 in the book of Acts is probably from the fact that you see them as leaders over Jesus Christ's sheep. I don't see what you see because I know Jesus Christ never gave any man such authority to begin with - Jesus Christ is God's Truth.

So Jesus Christ choose no one to represent him after he left?

tctrills:

Let's look at Acts 8:14
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
We see that the Apostles had the power to give Holy Ghost through the laying on of their hands.

So, your conclusion that Simon's assumption in that was correct because?

Kobojunkie:
So, your conclusion that Simon's assumption in that was correct because?

I am not talking about Simon's assumption. I am talking about the fact the Holy Ghost was bestowed through the laying of the apostle's hands. This power obviously came from God.

tctrills:

So Jesus Christ choose no one to represent him after he left?

John 14 vs 15 - 25 tells us that Jesus Christ (Spirit of Truth) and God Himself(Spirit of God or Holy Spirit) are all the Helpers, Representation, Lead we are to have, and this according to Jesus Christ's own teachings.

Kobojunkie:
John 14 vs 15 - 25 tells us that Jesus Christ (Spirit of Truth) and God Himself(Spirit of God or Holy Spirit) are all the Helpers, Representation, Lead we are to have, and this according to Jesus Christ's own teachings.

So basically I understood you, You believe the apostles had no right to lead the church. I want to fully understand your point of view so we can better discuss.

tctrills:
I am not talking about Simon's assumption. I am talking about the fact the Holy Ghost was bestowed through the laying of the apostle's hands. This power oviosly came from God.

When the 120 were in the room, whose hands caused the Holy Spirit to come on them at that time?

That Peter and John laid hands and it is written that the Holy Spirit, at that moment came down does not mean He was somehow controlled by their actions as Simon concluded at that point.

tctrills:

So basically i understood you, You believe the apostles had no right to lead the church.

I don't even believe they led any church as you claim. They were simply going about doing what was commanded of them and as they were lead by the Spirit of God to.

Kobojunkie:
When the 120 were in the room, whose hands caused the Holy Spirit to come on them at that time?

That Peter and John laid hands and it is written that the Holy Spirit, at that moment came down does not mean He was somehow controlled by their actions as Simon concluded at that point.

You are trying to say it was just a coincidence. Not like they had the power to bestow the Holy Ghost but they were just Lucky that time?

tctrills:
You are trying to say it was just a coincidence. Not like they had the power to bestow the Holy Ghost but they were just Lucky that time?

There is no luck to it! No one controls God or causes God to act. God does what He wants when He wants. .

Kobojunkie:
I don't even believe they led any church as you claim. They were simply going about doing what was commanded of them and as they were lead by the Spirit of God to.

If the Apostles were not leading the church then what was there role? why was there a need to appoint someone to fill Judas position.
Acts 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Kobojunkie:
There is no luck to it! No one controls God or causes God to act. God does what He wants when He wants. .

So we agree they had the authority from God?

tctrills:
If the Apostles were not leading the church then what was there role? why was there a need to appoint someone to fill Judas position.
Acts 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

I don't know why they felt to replace Judas at all. The Holy Spirit had not shown up at that time either so can't conclude the decision was led by Him.

tctrills:

So we agree they had the authority from God?

What part of what I wrote leads you to that?

Kobojunkie:
I don't know why they felt to replace Judas at all. The Holy Spirit had not shown up at that time either so can't conclude the decision was led by Him.

So I was right you believe the apostles took up power unto themselves. There leadership was not of God according to you?

Kobojunkie:
What part of what I wrote leads you to that?

If it wasn't coincidence then they were clearly acting under the autority of God.

tctrills:
So I was right you believe the apostles took up power unto themselves. There leadership was not of God according to you?

I don't believe you are right at all. What they did there was not against Jesus Christ. They simply chose to pick another person to add to their group from the other followers.... I don't see how that is in anyway against the Law of Jesus Christ.

Like I said, I don't believe they acted in capacity of leaders as you keep suggesting, so I don't see what you see.

Kobojunkie:
I don't believe you are right at all. What they did there was not against Jesus Christ. They simply chose to pick another person to add to their group from the other followers.... I don't see how that is in anyway against the Law of Jesus Christ.

Like I said, I don't believe they acted in capacity of leaders as you keep suggesting, so I don't see what you see.

They chose someone to act as an apostle.

tctrills:
If it wasn't coincidence then they were clearly acting under the autority of God.

A coincidence or as planned by God Himself?

tctrills:
They chose someone to act as an apostle.

They were all of them apostles, disciples etc. where they not? The selection was made from among themselves, not some group of outsiders.

Kobojunkie:
A coincidence or as planned by God Himself?

Anyway I really don't think I get Your point of view. I have tried to ask you questions but your answers are not really helpful. You must realize that your beliefs are strange to me and probably most Christians so I think you should do more to explain it to us so we can quote you correctly.

tctrills:
Anyway I really don't think I get Your point of view. I have tried to ask you questions but your answers are not really helpful. You must realize that your beliefs are strange to me and probably most Christians so I think you should do more to explain it to us so we can quote you correctly.

It's easy to get. What Jesus Christ decreed - His teachings and commandments - are Law and the rock on which His Church is built. Every other idea or tradition that is contrary to that set up by Him is against Him.