TAO12:
No! Your Benin brothers are mere testimonies (I know that’s a very big word for you) to the fact that historical facts, truth, etc. can still have its way through a Benin skull regardless of the ban on brain usage by your oba.

Youre looser.....


And a talkative

gregyboy:



I asked for evidence were the oba of benin was praised in yoruba names, prior to 1897

Or prior to oba ewuare 11, to make it easier

The Obas of Benin were busy cutting off heads of disrespectful traditional rulers before 1897. I will like to see the praise names of Oba of Benin by the victims of their axe. TAO11 over to you, let's know their praise names in Yoruba before 1897.

gregyboy:
Youre looser..... And a talkative

Nope!

A “Benin-child” is born = A “loser-in-life” is born.

But things are changing lately. See attached.

You Benins are actually too foolish to be ignored. Ignoring you means, to you, that you’ve stated facts. Jokers.

Crowther is not a historian, he is a linguist. He didn’t write a Yoruba history book. His books are generally grammar books, dictionary, etc. being a linguist.

Although he sometimes set aside introductory notes to Yoruba creation stories as well as Oyo kingship (being from Osoogun), and this introductory notes usually takes roughly 3% of the entire pages.

A sane mind wonders then how the next thing on his mind to write about (in a books of language) would be Ife-Benin connection. You’re hoplessly delusional.

Moreover, Mr. Cyril Punch who toured Yoruba cities and was also in Benin wrote in his 1889 Journal that:

“As a town, Benin was inconsiderable compared with places like Ibadan, Iseyhin, Shaki, Modakeke, and Abeokuta. There was no wealth, nor was there even power, except the power of the influence of fetish, and the sense of the spirit of a long past of atrocities, which, if not supernatural, were at any rate unnatural to a degree which is indescribable. I remember the return of two of Miller Brothers' men from a visit they paid to Benin after I had been there. They arrived at Guatun one evening, and showed plainly in their faces the mental strain that their visit had been to them.”

As for the Ife ‘bronze’ sculptures, the quotation here (is from an academic, expert, and professional Art Historian) shows IFE on the same pedestal as Greek, Rome, and Egypt.

“[The Ife sculptures] would stand comparison with anything which Ancient Egypt, Classical Greece and Rome, or Renaissance Europe had to offer”.

~ Frank Willett, “Ife and Its Archaeology,” The Journal of African History, Vol. 1, No. 2 (1960), p. 239.

No such comparison with the great arts of the world is recorded for Benin. Show me one

——————
Regarding the father-Ife/son-Benin classic connection, refer again to the following comments for a harsh reminder (and some trauma) which you were earlier on being endowed with:

This is not true.

Eyewitness testimony/writings from the late-1400s & early-1500s which references the monarch of the Ife kingdom & his suzerainty over Benin kingdom exist.

NB: Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.

This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.

In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language].

The symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample.

This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife.

In addition to this significant fact, the debate over the word “east” was subsequently quelled by the fact that from Atakpame (in present-day Togo) to the kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria), from Èkó (next to the Atlantic Ocean) to Ọ̀yọ́-Ilé (not far from the Niger River) Ife is known by the interesting epithet: Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá — i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”.

For some written references to the widespread usage of this epithet (in reference to Ife) among the natives of this region of West Africa, please refer to:

(A) Rev. D. Hinderer, “Diary Impression,” June 4, 1851, Ibadan, C.M.S.

(B) R. Horton (1979), p. 85., citing B. Maupoil (1943), A. Akinjogbin (1967:41-43), R. Smith (1969:31), as well as A. Obayemi (1976:206).

This reverential (rather than literal) epithet of Ife informed the literalist Europeans’ writings whose source(s) are Benin spokespersons of their king.

Hence the appearance of the word “east” in the early European writings in reference to the kingdom of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni (who is transliterated in the early writings as “Hooguanee”, “Ogané”, etc.).

Side Note: Binis, till today, still sometimes refer to the Ooni as Oghene. Refer to the entry “ɔɣɛnɛ” (i.e. “ọghẹnẹ”) in Hans Melzian’s “A Concise Dictionary of the Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” where its second definition is given as: “Bini name for the ↄni at Ile Ife”

Moreover, another piece of historical evidence which quelled the academic debate on the word “east” (as is seen in the early writings in reference to this overlord) are early maps.

There are maps (e.g. from the early 1500s) which show the phrase Dominion of the Orguene annotated across the western half of today’s Nigeria.

These historical information leaves anyone (not only the historians) with the only logical conclusion that the appearance of the word “east” in those early writings is of course not literal.

In conclusion, contrary to your ignorant assumption, there are writings from the early 1500s (on the basis of interviews of Bini representatives in the late 1400s) which references the king of Ife & his overlordship on Benin kingdom and other places.

Apart from early writings, there are other types of historical evidence which also establish clearly that there exist a classic (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

These other type of historical evidence which I come to here are classical artifacts from the hard science of archaeology. One crucial examples in this regard is discussed below.

The artifact shown in this link is the image of an Ooni of Ife. ~ S. P. Blier, “Art in Ancient Ife,” 2012, Figure 17.

The Ife naturalism of this artifact, its facial striations, as well as its classical Ife ceremonial costume and the pair of chest ornament help art historians (as well as Benin chroniclers alike) with identifying this image as an Ooni of Ife.

What is very, very crucial here is that this artifact was found in the archaeological deposits of Benin. To be more precise, it was excavated from the royal palace of Benin kingdom.

Furthermore, the production date of this artifact has now been established by science. This artifact is dated, by thermoluminescence technique, to the year 1420 [± 60 years].

~ Calvocoressi & David, “A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa,” 1979, p. 19.

For more pictorial angles (and details) regarding this particular artifact, please refer to:

(A) W. Fagg, “A Bronze Figure in Ife Style at Benin,” British Museum, June 1950, Plate Fa, Fb, Fc

(B) F. Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture,” McGraw-Hill, 1967, Figure 89.

(C) C. Adepegba, “The Descent from Oduduwa,” 1986, Plate 4.

In other words, a more-than 500-year-old ‘bronze’ cast of an Ooni Ife was discovered in the (archaeological deposits of the) palace of Benin kingdom.

In conclusion, it thus becomes clear that there exists a classical (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

Again, this conclusion which I have inevitably reached is not mine. This is simply the conclusion of historical scholarship. This can be seen in the following works:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A beautiful summary of this conclusion of scholars of
African history (some of whose names and works are listed above) is shown in the page below from Adam Knobler (2016), p.47.

Peace!

PS: (1) Omonoba (king’s child) Akenzua II visited Ooni of Ife at Ife.

Not because the Ooni was having a party, but because Akenzua himself just became Benin king.

(2) Omonoba (king’s child) Erediauwa (i.e. Akenzua II’s successor) also visited Ooni of Ife at Ife.

Not because the Ooni was having a party, but because Erediauwa himself just became Benin king.

(3) Omonoba (king’s child) Ewuare II (i.e. Erediauwa’s successor) also visited Ooni of Ife at Ife.

Not because the Ooni was having a party, but because Ewuare II himself just became Benin king.
The three of them were so humble in the presence of their father & overlord.

Who born monkey?

IFE is roughly about 174 miles away from Benin City.

However, the alleged distance of 900 miles is NOT mentioned anywhere in the text.

Instead, the distance between Benin City and the Ogane’s place [as given in the text] is 250 leagues.

However, this number (250 leagues) wasn’t obtained (by the Portuguese) from any Bini informant. This fact is extremely clear from the text itself.

In fact, the Binis who lived in the 1400s/1500s did not measure distance in leagues, miles, etc. As such, they couldn’t have given such information.

Instead, the Binis of the 1400s, 1500s, etc. measured distance in natural terms, e.g. on the basis of celestial bodies such as the Moon, etc.

Interestingly, the distance obtained from the Binis by the Portuguese was given in terms of the Moon. This is given in the text.

The Binis informed the Portuguese that it takes twenty (20) moons journey to go from Benin city to the Ogané’s place.

It was on the basis of this received information (i.e. 20 moons journey away) that the Portuguese imagined what the distance in “leagues” should be.

The distance in leagues was NOT received from the Binis. The text is clear on this. The W/African context is also clear on this.

Having said that, the natural question now becomes:

Is this number (20 moons journey from Benin City to the Ogane’s place) realistic for IFE if it is indeed the Ogane’s place??

In other words, could the distance from Benin City to Ile-Ife possibly have been twenty moons journey in some “traditional” terms? Let’s do the Maths on the basis of average numbers & the “traditional” context.

The data to be used for the Math is NOT on the basis of Google map’s algorithm which assumes a walking trip with zero tiredness, zero rests, zero stops, zero pauses, zero relaxations, zero camps, constant rapid pace, etc.

Instead, the data to be used is on the basis of the real life situation, average numbers, & traditional context.

Datum 1: C. G. Okojie’s “Ishan Native Laws and Customs,” p. 210. provides the first data as follows:

The walking trip from Uromi (in Ishan) to Benin City on a course of some 50 miles “traditionally” took an average of 5 months.

~ Cited in A.F.C. Ryder (1965), p.27.

Datum 2: IFE is roughly about 174 miles away from Benin City (even over the ancient Benin-Owo-Ife route).

These two data leave an answer of about 17.4 months [NOT moons] as the “traditional” walking time from Benin to Ife.

In other words, IFE is 17.4 months journey away from Benin city on the average “traditionally”.

Question: How many “moons” are 17.4 months equivalent to? To answer this, two pieces of data will be adduced.

Datum 3: It takes the Moon 27.322 days to go around the earth.

In other words, there are [exactly] about 27.322 days in one “moon”.

Datum 4: There is an average of 30.47 days in one month.

Summary:
(1) The “traditional” walking distance from Benin to Ile-Ife took an average of 17.4 months

(2) 17.4 months are equivalent to 530.178 days (i.e. 17.4 months * 30.47days per month).

(3) 530.178 days are equivalent to 19.4 moons (i.e. 530.178 days / 27.322 days per moon).

In conclusion, the facts and figures turn out to prove that the “traditional” trip from Benin city to Ile-Ife took an average of 19.4 moons.

This answer is therefore astoundingly accurate for all practical intents and purpose.

From this again, we see that Ife is indeed the place of the Ogané of the Portuguese text. The Bini informant knew exactly what he was talking about.

PS: References to this great overlord (to whom Benin obas are subservient) is documented not once, not twice, not thrice by independent Europeans; but at least five separate times spanning centuries prior to the 1800s.

Peace!

TAO12:
Nope!

A “Benin-child” is born = A “loser-in-life” is born.

But things are changing lately. See attached.

I thought Etinosa1234 have seen the light...

Anyway since youre now depending on benin
People as source of evidence then we have delt a big blow to your lying machines, that youre now result in using benins as evidence

Lol

TAO12:
IFE is roughly about 174 miles away from Benin City.

However, the alleged distance of 900 miles is NOT mentioned anywhere in the text.

Instead, the distance between Benin City and the Ogane’s place [as given in the text] is 250 leagues.

However, this number (250 leagues) wasn’t obtained (by the Portuguese) from any Bini informant. This fact is extremely clear from the text itself.

In fact, the Binis who lived in the 1400s/1500s did not measure distance in leagues, miles, etc. As such, they couldn’t have given such information.

Instead, the Binis of the 1400s, 1500s, etc. measured distance in natural terms, e.g. on the basis of celestial bodies such as the Moon, etc.

Interestingly, the distance obtained from the Binis by the Portuguese was given in terms of the Moon. This is given in the text.

The Binis informed the Portuguese that it takes twenty (20) moons journey to go from Benin city to the Ogané’s place.

It was on the basis of this received information (i.e. 20 moons journey away) that the Portuguese imagined what the distance in “leagues” should be.

The distance in leagues was NOT received from the Binis. The text is clear on this. The W/African context is also clear on this.

Having said that, the natural question now becomes:

Is this number (20 moons journey from Benin City to the Ogane’s place) realistic for IFE if it is indeed the Ogane’s place??

In other words, could the distance from Benin City to Ile-Ife possibly have been twenty moons journey in some “traditional” terms? Let’s do the Maths on the basis of average numbers & the “traditional” context.

The data to be used for the Math is NOT on the basis of Google map’s algorithm which assumes a walking trip with zero tiredness, zero rests, zero stops, zero pauses, zero relaxations, zero camps, constant rapid pace, etc.

Instead, the data to be used is on the basis of the real life situation, average numbers, & traditional context.

Datum 1: C. G. Okojie’s “Ishan Native Laws and Customs,” p. 210. provides the first data as follows:

The walking trip from Uromi (in Ishan) to Benin City on a course of some 50 miles “traditionally” took an average of 5 months.

~ Cited in A.F.C. Ryder (1965), p.27.

Datum 2: IFE is roughly about 174 miles away from Benin City (even over the ancient Benin-Owo-Ife route).

These two data leave an answer of about 17.4 months [NOT moons] as the “traditional” walking time from Benin to Ife.

In other words, IFE is 17.4 months journey away from Benin city on the average “traditionally”.

Question: How many “moons” are 17.4 months equivalent to? To answer this, two pieces of data will be adduced.

Datum 3: It takes the Moon 27.322 days to go around the earth.

In other words, there are [exactly] about 27.322 days in one “moon”.

Datum 4: There is an average of 30.47 days in one month.

Summary:
(1) The “traditional” walking distance from Benin to Ile-Ife took an average of 17.4 months

(2) 17.4 months are equivalent to 530.178 days (i.e. 17.4 months * 30.47days per month).

(3) 530.178 days are equivalent to 19.4 moons (i.e. 530.178 days / 27.322 days per moon).

In conclusion, the facts and figures turn out to prove that the “traditional” trip from Benin city to Ile-Ife took an average of 19.4 moons.

This answer is therefore astoundingly accurate for all practical intents and purpose.

From this again, we see that Ife is indeed the place of the Ogané of the Portuguese text. The Bini informant knew exactly what he was talking about.

PS: References to this great overlord (to whom Benin obas are subservient) is documented not once, not twice, not thrice by independent Europeans; but at least five separate times spanning centuries prior to the 1800s.

Peace!

Ghostwon as disproved this before... Lol


Lets do it again in the simplest way not in any calculation up there


The benin said the location of oghnene nuhe is
East and not west


Ife lies in west.... And not east


So why all those japper japper you put up there as calculation

Show us the “DiSpRoVeD”!! LMAO!

gregyboy:
[s] as disproved this before... Lol

Lets do it again in the simplest way not in any calculation up there

The benin said the location of oghnene nuhe is
East and not west

Ife lies in west.... And not east

So why all those japper japper you put up there as calculation[/s]

https://www.nairaland.com/6482972/name-lagos-called-ekonunuame-benins/26#104847769

Who should be blamed for your illiteracy??

Me, yourself, or your parents?

Make your pick.

gregyboy:
[s]I thought Etinosa1234 have seen the light...

Anyway since youre now depending on benin
People as source of evidence then we have delt a big blow to your lying machines, that youre now result in using benins as evidence

[/s]Lol

The word “testimony” is of course too much for a Benin brain to grasp. Your plight is understandable.

Las-las, na you go be the last man standing. Haha!

TAO12:
You [s]Benins are actually too foolish to be ignored. Ignoring you means, to you, that you’ve stated facts. Jokers.

Crowther is not a historian, he is a linguist. He didn’t write a Yoruba history book. His books are generally grammar books, dictionary, etc. being a linguist.

Although he sometimes set aside introductory notes to Yoruba creation stories as well as Oyo kingship (being from Osoogun), and this introductory notes usually takes roughly 3% of the entire pages.

A sane mind wonders then how the next thing on his mind to write about (in a books of language) would be Ife-Benin connection. You’re hoplessly delusional.

Moreover, Mr. Cyril Punch who toured Yoruba cities and was also in Benin wrote in his 1889 Journal that:

“As a town, Benin was inconsiderable compared with places like Ibadan, Iseyhin, Shaki, Modakeke, and Abeokuta. There was no wealth, nor was there even power, except the power of the influence of fetish, and the sense of the spirit of a long past of atrocities, which, if not supernatural, were at any rate unnatural to a degree which is indescribable. I remember the return of two of Miller Brothers' men from a visit they paid to Benin after I had been there. They arrived at Guatun one evening, and showed plainly in their faces the mental strain that their visit had been to them.”

As for the Ife ‘bronze’ sculptures, the quotation here (is from an academic, expert, and professional Art Historian) shows IFE on the same pedestal as Greek, Rome, and Egypt.

“[The Ife sculptures] would stand comparison with anything which Ancient Egypt, Classical Greece and Rome, or Renaissance Europe had to offer”.

~ Frank Willett, “Ife and Its Archaeology,” The Journal of African History, Vol. 1, No. 2 (1960), p. 239.

No such comparison with the great arts of the world is recorded for Benin. Show me one

——————
Regarding the father-Ife/son-Benin classic connection, refer again to the following comments for a harsh reminder (and some trauma) which you were earlier on being endowed with:

This is not true.

Eyewitness testimony/writings from the late-1400s & early-1500s which references the monarch of the Ife kingdom & his suzerainty over Benin kingdom exist.

NB: Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.

This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.

In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language].

The symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample.

This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife.

In addition to this significant fact, the debate over the word “east” was subsequently quelled by the fact that from Atakpame (in present-day Togo) to the kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria), from Èkó (next to the Atlantic Ocean) to Ọ̀yọ́-Ilé (not far from the Niger River) Ife is known by the interesting epithet: Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá — i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”.

For some written references to the widespread usage of this epithet (in reference to Ife) among the natives of this region of West Africa, please refer to:

(A) Rev. D. Hinderer, “Diary Impression,” June 4, 1851, Ibadan, C.M.S.

(B) R. Horton (1979), p. 89., citing B. Maupoil (1943), A. Akinjogbin (1967:41-43), R. Smith (1969:31), as well as A. Obayemi (1976:206).

This reverential (rather than literal) epithet of Ife informed the literalist Europeans’ writings whose source(s) are Benin spokespersons of their king.

Hence the appearance of the word “east” in the early European writings in reference to the kingdom of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni (who is transliterated in the early writings as “Hooguanee”, “Ogané”, etc.).

Side Note: Binis, till today, still sometimes refer to the Ooni as Oghene. Refer to the entry “ɔɣɛnɛ” (i.e. “ọghẹnẹ”) in Hans Melzian’s “A Concise Dictionary of the Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” where its second definition is given as: “Bini name for the ↄni at Ile Ife”

Moreover, another piece of historical evidence which quelled the academic debate on the word “east” (as is seen in the early writings in reference to this overlord) are early maps.

There are maps (e.g. from the early 1500s) which show the phrase Dominion of the Orguene annotated across the western half of today’s Nigeria.

These historical information leaves anyone (not only the historians) with the only logical conclusion that the appearance of the word “east” in those early writings is of course not literal.

In conclusion, contrary to your ignorant assumption, there are writings from the early 1500s (on the basis of interviews of Bini representatives in the late 1400s) which references the king of Ife & his overlordship on Benin kingdom and other places.

Apart from early writings, there are other types of historical evidence which also establish clearly that there exist a classic (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

These other type of historical evidence which I come to here are classical artifacts from the hard science of archaeology. One crucial examples in this regard is discussed below.

The artifact shown in this link is the image of an Ooni of Ife. ~ S. P. Blier, “Art in Ancient Ife,” 2012, Figure 17.

The Ife naturalism of this artifact, its facial striations, as well as its classical Ife ceremonial costume and the pair of chest ornament help art historians (as well as Benin chroniclers alike) with identifying this image as an Ooni of Ife.

What is very, very crucial here is that this artifact was found in the archaeological deposits of Benin. To be more precise, it was excavated from the royal palace of Benin kingdom.

Furthermore, the production date of this artifact has now been established by science. This artifact is dated, by thermoluminescence technique, to the year 1420 [± 60 years].

~ Calvocoressi & David, “A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa,” 1979, p. 19.

For more pictorial angles (and details) regarding this particular artifact, please refer to:

(A) W. Fagg, “A Bronze Figure in Ife Style at Benin,” British Museum, June 1950, Plate Fa, Fb, Fc

(B) F. Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture,” McGraw-Hill, 1967, Figure 89.

(C) C. Adepegba, “The Descent from Oduduwa,” 1986, Plate 4.

In other words, a more-than 500-year-old ‘bronze’ cast of an Ooni Ife was discovered in the (archaeological deposits of the) palace of Benin kingdom.

In conclusion, it thus becomes clear that there exists a classical (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

Again, this conclusion which I have inevitably reached is not mine. This is simply the conclusion of historical scholarship. This can be seen in the following works:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A beautiful summary of this conclusion of scholars of
African history (some of whose names and works are listed above) is shown in the page below from Adam Knobler (2016), p.47.

Peace!

PS: (1) Omonoba (king’s child) Akenzua II visited Ooni of Ife at Ife.

Not because the Ooni was having a party, but because Akenzua himself just became Benin king.

(2) Omonoba (king’s child) Erediauwa (i.e. Akenzua II’s successor) also visited Ooni of Ife at Ife.

Not because the Ooni was having a party, but because Erediauwa himself just became Benin king.

(3) Omonoba (king’s child) Ewuare II (i.e. Erediauwa’s successor) also visited Ooni of Ife at Ife.

Not because the Ooni was having a party, but because Ewuare II himself just became Benin king.
The three of them were so humble in the presence of their father & overlord.

Who born monkey[/s]?

Who they breathe... Lol


Tao11 dey breathe lies

One thing about lies you have to cover it up with more lies to make it sound like truth
So at the end of the day.. You will end up with a long epistle because of patch patch...


Every yoruba monarch called ile ife by its name and called the ooni by is title ooni
But somehow the benins called it differently
And not even similar.. But Tao11 is patching things up for me to believe by force


Tao11 i really don't have time for your rubbish

We benins ruled the entire lagos and tumbled on the entire yorubaland

And yet our wasn't yoruba... That's were the pain comes from

TAO12:
You Benins are actually too foolish to be ignored. Ignoring you means, to you, that you’ve stated facts. Jokers.

Crowther is not a historian, he is a linguist. He didn’t write a Yoruba history book. His books are generally grammar books, dictionary, etc. being a linguist.

Although he sometimes set aside introductory notes to Yoruba creation stories as well as Oyo kingship (being from Osoogun), and this introductory notes usually takes roughly 3% of the entire pages.

A sane mind wonders then how the next thing on his mind to write about (in a books of language) would be Ife-Benin connection. You’re hoplessly delusional.

Moreover, Mr. Cyril Punch who toured Yoruba cities and was also in Benin wrote in his 1889 Journal that:

“As a town, Benin was inconsiderable compared with places like Ibadan, Iseyhin, Shaki, Modakeke, and Abeokuta. There was no wealth, nor was there even power, except the power of the influence of fetish, and the sense of the spirit of a long past of atrocities, which, if not supernatural, were at any rate unnatural to a degree which is indescribable. I remember the return of two of Miller Brothers' men from a visit they paid to Benin after I had been there. They arrived at Guatun one evening, and showed plainly in their faces the mental strain that their visit had been to them.”

As for the Ife ‘bronze’ sculptures, the quotation here (is from an academic, expert, and professional Art Historian) shows IFE on the same pedestal as Greek, Rome, and Egypt.

“[The Ife sculptures] would stand comparison with anything which Ancient Egypt, Classical Greece and Rome, or Renaissance Europe had to offer”.

~ Frank Willett, “Ife and Its Archaeology,” The Journal of African History, Vol. 1, No. 2 (1960), p. 239.

No such comparison with the great arts of the world is recorded for Benin. Show me one

——————
Regarding the father-Ife/son-Benin classic connection, refer again to the following comments for a harsh reminder (and some trauma) which you were earlier on being endowed with:

This is not true.

Eyewitness testimony/writings from the late-1400s & early-1500s which references the monarch of the Ife kingdom & his suzerainty over Benin kingdom exist.

NB: Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.

This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.

In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language].

The symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample.

This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife.

In addition to this significant fact, the debate over the word “east” was subsequently quelled by the fact that from Atakpame (in present-day Togo) to the kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria), from Èkó (next to the Atlantic Ocean) to Ọ̀yọ́-Ilé (not far from the Niger River) Ife is known by the interesting epithet: Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá — i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”.

For some written references to the widespread usage of this epithet (in reference to Ife) among the natives of this region of West Africa, please refer to:

(A) Rev. D. Hinderer, “Diary Impression,” June 4, 1851, Ibadan, C.M.S.

(B) R. Horton (1979), p. 89., citing B. Maupoil (1943), A. Akinjogbin (1967:41-43), R. Smith (1969:31), as well as A. Obayemi (1976:206).

This reverential (rather than literal) epithet of Ife informed the literalist Europeans’ writings whose source(s) are Benin spokespersons of their king.

Hence the appearance of the word “east” in the early European writings in reference to the kingdom of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni (who is transliterated in the early writings as “Hooguanee”, “Ogané”, etc.).

Side Note: Binis, till today, still sometimes refer to the Ooni as Oghene. Refer to the entry “ɔɣɛnɛ” (i.e. “ọghẹnẹ”) in Hans Melzian’s “A Concise Dictionary of the Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” where its second definition is given as: “Bini name for the ↄni at Ile Ife”

Moreover, another piece of historical evidence which quelled the academic debate on the word “east” (as is seen in the early writings in reference to this overlord) are early maps.

There are maps (e.g. from the early 1500s) which show the phrase Dominion of the Orguene annotated across the western half of today’s Nigeria.

These historical information leaves anyone (not only the historians) with the only logical conclusion that the appearance of the word “east” in those early writings is of course not literal.

In conclusion, contrary to your ignorant assumption, there are writings from the early 1500s (on the basis of interviews of Bini representatives in the late 1400s) which references the king of Ife & his overlordship on Benin kingdom and other places.

Apart from early writings, there are other types of historical evidence which also establish clearly that there exist a classic (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

These other type of historical evidence which I come to here are classical artifacts from the hard science of archaeology. One crucial examples in this regard is discussed below.

The artifact shown in this link is the image of an Ooni of Ife. ~ S. P. Blier, “Art in Ancient Ife,” 2012, Figure 17.

The Ife naturalism of this artifact, its facial striations, as well as its classical Ife ceremonial costume and the pair of chest ornament help art historians (as well as Benin chroniclers alike) with identifying this image as an Ooni of Ife.

What is very, very crucial here is that this artifact was found in the archaeological deposits of Benin. To be more precise, it was excavated from the royal palace of Benin kingdom.

Furthermore, the production date of this artifact has now been established by science. This artifact is dated, by thermoluminescence technique, to the year 1420 [± 60 years].

~ Calvocoressi & David, “A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa,” 1979, p. 19.

For more pictorial angles (and details) regarding this particular artifact, please refer to:

(A) W. Fagg, “A Bronze Figure in Ife Style at Benin,” British Museum, June 1950, Plate Fa, Fb, Fc

(B) F. Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture,” McGraw-Hill, 1967, Figure 89.

(C) C. Adepegba, “The Descent from Oduduwa,” 1986, Plate 4.

In other words, a more-than 500-year-old ‘bronze’ cast of an Ooni Ife was discovered in the (archaeological deposits of the) palace of Benin kingdom.

In conclusion, it thus becomes clear that there exists a classical (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

Again, this conclusion which I have inevitably reached is not mine. This is simply the conclusion of historical scholarship. This can be seen in the following works:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A beautiful summary of this conclusion of scholars of
African history (some of whose names and works are listed above) is shown in the page below from Adam Knobler (2016), p.47.

Peace!

PS: (1) Omonoba (king’s child) Akenzua II visited Ooni of Ife at Ife.

Not because the Ooni was having a party, but because Akenzua himself just became Benin king.

(2) Omonoba (king’s child) Erediauwa (i.e. Akenzua II’s successor) also visited Ooni of Ife at Ife.

Not because the Ooni was having a party, but because Erediauwa himself just became Benin king.

(3) Omonoba (king’s child) Ewuare II (i.e. Erediauwa’s successor) also visited Ooni of Ife at Ife.

Not because the Ooni was having a party, but because Ewuare II himself just became Benin king.
The three of them were so humble in the presence of their father & overlord.

Who born monkey?

See epistle full of lies
Get a life

Think4Myself:

See epistle full of lies
Get a life

As usual na patch patch

gregyboy:
[s]Who they breathe... Lol
Tao11 dey breathe lies
One thing about lies you have to cover it up with more lies to make it sound like truth
So at the end of the day.. You will end up with a long epistle because of patch patch...
Every yoruba monarch called ile ife by its name and called the ooni by is title ooni
But somehow the benins called it differently
And not even similar.. But Tao11 is patching things up for me to believe by force
Tao11 i really don't have time for your rubbish
We benins ruled the entire lagos and tumbled on the entire yorubaland
And yet our wasn't yoruba... That's were the pain comes from[/s]

(1) History works are usually much longer.

(2) They are strictly for those who are capable of using their brain.

(3) Come back here whenever the ban on your brain has been lifted by your oba.

(4) Your oba is a Yoruba man, and he is subservient to the great overlord at Ife.

(5) Get mad if you can.

gregyboy:
As usual na patch patch

Think4Myself:
See epistle full of lies
Get a life

Those comments of mine are strictly for those who are able to make use of their brain.

Revert here to read when the ban on your brain has been lifted by your oba.

But I appreciate you for helping me push it virally.

Good luck.

TAO12:
(1) History works are usually much longer.

(2) They are strictly for those who are capable of using their brain.

(3) Come back here whenever the ban on your brain has been lifted by your oba.

(4) Your oba is a Yoruba man, and he is subservient to the great overlord at Ife.

(5) Get mad if you can.

Patch patch historian history is not patch patch or jabber jabber, history flows


Lol, i have debunked everything you put up there before even the artifact am not going to be doimg it again


Not when you dont bring something new

Tao11 bring something new to the table

Stop cutting corners. Lol

gregyboy:
[s]Patch patch historian history is not patch patch or jabber jabber, history flows
Lol, i have debunked everything you put up there before even the artifact am not going to be doimg it again
Not when you dont bring something new
Tao11 bring something new to the table
Stop cutting corners. Lol[/s]

Tell a new lie, and get a new refutation. LMAO!

By the way, why did you steal my screenshot ?? ?? You mean say the thing pain you reach bone ??

You’re a real disgrace to yourself, family and friends.

A Benin-child is born = A loser in life is born.

TAO12:
Tell a new lie, and get a new refutation. LMAO!

By the way, why did you steal my screenshot ?? ?? You mean say the thing pain you reach bone ??

I am a real disgrace to gregboy myself , family and friends.

A yoruba-child is born = A loser in life is born.

Thought as much

gregyboy:
Thought as much

Haha E pain am die. He had to edit my comment.

Whenever losers lose, they also lose creativity as well as originality.

He proved himself a loser. LMAO!

TAO12:
I’m planning a visit to Benin city in December.

Specifically to visit the Museum. I need to take some pictures of some artifacts in as part of the exhibit for a publication I’m working on.

Anyone willing to show me around just for the 3-day visit?

gregyboy, UGBE634, Etinosa1234, samuk, AreaFada2, Truthvalue;

Do you all know anyone who will be on ground and willing to take me around?

I would pay them.

I can show you around but online. From thousands of miles away.

UGBE634:
The fact is who is Edo or not is not for him to decide, it was bestowed on me by my ancestors not him. I am not even from the stock that migrated here, I am from Ugo, I am pure Edo. The Oba himself knows he is Yoruba, how would a man contend in a land that is his. The Ekiokpagha treaty is the greatest deciding factor for me

You are an idiot. There is no such thing as "Ekiokpagha treaty", our ancestors were illiterates, they didn't write treaties, it is the Europeans who brought treaties to our land and passed treaties with us. The Oba of Benin has no link whatsoever with yoruba whom are not even interrelated by the way. Actually yoruba is synonymous to "oyo". The current popular meaning of yoruba is not it's historical meaning, rather it is a political and mythical creation.

Nairaland is full with teenaged trolls falsely claiming other people's ethnicity.

Etinosa1234:



Lol.. I doubt u have plans to reveal ur identity on nairaland

Don't mind the troll, obese, urgly and deseased people will hide their picture and identity while making fun of other people's.
Given the amount of time that troll spends online, it is logical to assume that troll is obese, given the lack of sense shown by that troll, it is fair to assume that troll is from a crack-head family.
This is why I don't waste my time on social media, it is where the trolls live, there are more important things to do than talk to low lives who can only get near you through a computer screen but would never be able to do so in real life.
Take care brother.

Precolonial "palace" of the alafin of oyo

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/320792

This is the so called "emperor" of the yoruba and that "palace" is the so called "imperial palace".

Don't you guys hate it when your myth is bursted by reality. Oyo has always been a small kingdom with alafin as its king and oni as the head priest of the alafin.
Truth is bitter.

Areafada, Etinosa1234.

Oni Ademiliyu and his "palace":

Areafada, Etinosa1234

[s]Precolonial "palace" of the alafin of oyo

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/320792

This is the so called "emperor" of the yoruba and that "palace" is the so called "imperial palace".

Don't you guys hate it when your myth is bursted by reality. Oyo has always been a small kingdom with alafin as its king and oni as the head priest of the alafin.
Truth is bitter.[/s]

When the debate is lost, self-refuting slanders quickly become the tool of the loser.

Your goal here is to trick your gullible Bini brothers & sisters into thinking that the above picture was taken at old-Oyo, i.e. the Oyo which was the empire.

However, your attempt here is another epic fail for the following reasons and facts:

(1) The embedded metmuseum link to the picture says the photo was taken in the early-1900s. It reads:

“Date: Early 20th century”.

(2) The location of old-Oyo (i.e. farther north and not far from the Niger River) had become uninhabited and abandoned since the early/mid-1800s.

(3) Your photo is thus not of the imperial palace of the Oyo Empire (i.e. old-Oyo) as the empire ended and its location was abandoned since the 1800s.

(4) Your photo thus was taken at an entirely different location some hundred years after the empire ended and was abandoned for another location south.

(5) Plus, the photo you attached never even claimed that background to be his palace in the first place.

(6) For a taste of what the “imperial palace” of old-Oyo (i.e. the Oyo empire) looked like, please refer to my 1st attachment below.

Its annotation reads: “King’s Palace (Afin) Oyo.”
—————
PS: See also my 2nd attachment (from a 1903 paper) to have an educated grasp of the office of the Ooni in comparison to the office of the Alaafin.

Regards.

Oni Ademiliyu and his "palace"

Another epic fail as is to be expected.

Here are the facts and logic:

(1) Oba Ademiluyi was the Ooni of Ife from 1910-1930.

(2) Ethnologist Leo Frobenius was at Ife in 1910/1911.

(3) Frobenius met the then Ooni Ife at his palace.

(4) Frobenius thus saw Oba Ademiluyi’s palace.

(5) It was in ruins courtesy of the Yoruba wars.

(6) Yet, here is his eyewitness description:

(A) “A minute or two after twelve midday the monumental ruins of the Ooni’s “palace” met our gaze. We stood before the portal of the castle in the middle of an enormous square. I sent Bida in to announce us, waited for some time, made my horse climb the high flight of steps and rode through the delicately-carved door of the entrance, across the courtyard and through the dilapidated colonnades with my companions. It was like an enchanted castle. It was so large and noble in design, so superbly pure despite its broken lines, its mouldering to decay and the sordid exterior it now presents. We did not meet a single soul. At last we came to where there were some people, and there, clad in a gorgeous robe of bright green silk, a magnificent tiara on his brow, and shaded by a huge silken canopy, the Oni, the head of the Holy City of Ife’s hierarchy, advanced to meet us with a great crowd.” ~ Leo Frobenius, “Voice of Africa,” (1913), p.77.


(B) “The Palace of the Oni, whose massive walls meet the eye from whatever quarter one approaches it, is that which most impress everyone who visits the Ilifé of to-day. Its front, especially, with the fine open square on which it stands, makes an imposing effect in spite of all its ruin. The masonry of the façade is still in fair condition, although it is denuded and devoid of interest. The walls are more mighty, over a yard broad at the base and some eighteen feet high.” ~ Leo Frobenius, “Voice of Africa,” (1913), p.276.

(7) The background in your photo fails to match this eyewitness account.

(8 ) The background in your photo is therefore not a picture of his “palace”.

(9) Plus, the photo you attached never even claimed that background to be his palace in the first place.

(10) Why are you a liar?

Cheers.

TAO11:

(2) The location of old-Oyo (i.e. farther north and not far from the Niger River) had become uninhabited and abandoned since the early/mid-1800s.

(3) Your photo is thus not of the imperial palace of the Oyo Empire (i.e. old-Oyo) as the empire ended and its location was abandoned since the 1800s.

If it was true that Oyo had an empire whose location was not far from the Niger River before 1800s;

1. Why was it not visible to European explorers and visited by the various Europeans that continuously used this route to visit Benin empire for 400 years (1400s - 1800s).

2. Why are there no independent European eyewitnesses to this Oyo empire that ended in 1800s.

3. Not far from this location is the body of water called the bight of Benin. This water was named the bight of Benin by Europeans because Benin was the most significant empire that existed in this area.

4. The so called Oyo empire was created in 1800s.

5. You forgot that you once argued that the reason that the Europeans didn't visit Oyo empire was because it was in the hinterland and the Europeans were afraid of mosquitoes, you said the Europeans only visited kingdoms and empire not far from the coast.

6. If you are now claiming that old Oyo empire was not far from Niger River, why was it not visited or visible to European explorers.

7. The first time the Europeans visited Oyo was 1824 and they saw no empire but a small village whose ruler, the Alaafin was being harassed by his neighbours with the Alaafin calling on the Oba of Benin for military help.

One thing is to lie, another thing is to be able to defend these lies.

The truth is Oyo was a village that dominated other smaller villages and people around her. Some of these people have been annexed and are today comfortable with their Oyo yoruba identity.

The myth of yoruba coming from Ife was created in the 1800s to accommodate anyone that want to be part of the larger Oyo family.

Oyo is yoruba and those that want to became yoruba goes through the Ife, Oduduwa myths, this is why the Ijebu claim of coming from Sudan causes disaffection amongst yoruba.

TAO11:
Another epic fail as is to be expected.

(6) Yet, here is his eyewitness description:

(A) “A minute or two after twelve midday the monumental ruins of the Ooni’s “palace” met our gaze. We stood before the portal of the castle in the middle of an enormous square. I sent Bida in to announce us, waited for some time, made my horse climb the high flight of steps and rode through the delicately-carved door of the entrance, across the courtyard and through the dilapidated colonnades with my companions. It was like an enchanted castle. It was so large and noble in design, so superbly pure despite its broken lines, its mouldering to decay and the sordid exterior it now presents. We did not meet a single soul. At last we came to where there were some people, and there, clad in a gorgeous robe of bright green silk, a magnificent tiara on his brow, and shaded by a huge silken canopy, the Oni, the head of the Holy City of Ife’s hierarchy, advanced to meet us with a great crowd.” ~ Leo Frobenius, “Voice of Africa,” (1913), p.77.


(B) “The Palace of the Oni, whose massive walls meet the eye from whatever quarter one approaches it, is that which most impress everyone who visits the Ilifé of to-day. Its front, especially, with the fine open square on which it stands, makes an imposing effect in spite of all its ruin. The masonry of the façade is still in fair condition, although it is denuded and devoid of interest. The walls are more mighty, over a yard broad at the base and some eighteen feet high.” ~ Leo Frobenius, “Voice of Africa,” (1913), p.276.

(7) The background in your photo fails to match this eyewitness account.

(8 ) The background in your photo is therefore not a picture of his “palace”.

(9) Plus, the photo you attached never even claimed that background to be his palace in the first place.

(10) Why are you a liar?

Cheers.

This eye witness account is false, not a true description of the (dilapidated and run down) Oni Palace. Typical of the white man deceptive ways.

When did the oni palace have high steps? Leading to which floor?

Why was the Oni palace still in ruins almost 20years after the yoruba wars?
was he too poor to rebuild or it wasn't actually ruins but so ugly and dirty the explorer thought it was ruins?

The picture of Oni Ademiliyu that you are disputing, is that really the Oni? If it is then it is also his palace in the background..

Stop confusing reality with sweet stories..

These people think empire is what you build and hide from others.

TAO12:
IFE is roughly about 174 miles away from Benin City.

Summary:
(1) The “traditional” walking distance from Benin to Ile-Ife took an average of 17.4 months

(2) 17.4 months are equivalent to 530.178 days (i.e. 17.4 months * 30.47days per month).

(3) 530.178 days are equivalent to 19.4 moons (i.e. 530.178 days / 27.322 days per moon).

In conclusion, the facts and figures turn out to prove that the “traditional” trip from Benin city to Ile-Ife took an average of 19.4 moons.

This answer is therefore astoundingly accurate for all practical intents and purpose.

From this again, we see that Ife is indeed the place of the Ogané of the Portuguese text. The Bini informant knew exactly what he was talking about.

PS: References to this great overlord (to whom Benin obas are subservient) is documented not once, not twice, not thrice by independent Europeans; but at least five separate times spanning centuries prior to the 1800s.

Peace!

You must really be stupid (though u have proven to be) to believe it will take almost 2 years to walk from Benin to Ife. The white man must have really filled your brains with dust and smoke before they released you people from slavery and returned to Africa. No wonder you believe Oduduwa fell from the sky in chains.

Can you ask your white overlords how long it took them to walk from one city to another when they were exploring Africa? Some of them
(like Mr. Cyril Punch) definitely visited Benin, Ife, Oyo and many other places during their exploration. so ask them how long it took them to walk from Benin to Ife, or from Ife to Oyo, or from Oyo to Benin.. Mumu like you.

An Edo man will walk from Benin to Ife in less than 2 weeks..

UMUAZEE:
[s]This eye witness account is false, not a true description of the (dilapidated and run down) Oni Palace. Typical of the white man deceptive ways.

When did the oni palace have high steps? Leading to which floor?

Why was the Oni palace still in ruins almost 20years after the yoruba wars?
was he too poor to rebuild or it wasn't actually ruins but so ugly and dirty the explorer thought it was ruins?

The picture of Oni Ademiliyu that you are disputing, is that really the Oni? If it is then it is also his palace in the background..

Stop confusing reality with sweet stories..[/s]

An eyewitness’ account furnished with quotes and full references have its way of inflicting pains on folks with wonderfully low self esteem like you.

I feel your pains.

samuk:
[s]If it was true that Oyo had an empire whose location was not far from the Niger River before 1800s;

1. Why was it not visible to European explorers and visited by the various Europeans that continuously used this route to visit Benin empire for 400 years (1400s - 1800s).

2. Why are there no independent European eyewitnesses to this Oyo empire that ended in 1800s.

3. Not far from this location is the body of water called the bight of Benin. This water was named the bight of Benin by Europeans because Benin was the most significant empire that existed in this area.

4. The so called Oyo empire was created in 1800s.

5. You forgot that you once argued that the reason that the Europeans didn't visit Oyo empire was because it was in the hinterland and the Europeans were afraid of mosquitoes, you said the Europeans only visited kingdoms and empire not far from the coast.

6. If you are now claiming that old Oyo empire was not far from Niger River, why was it not visited or visible to European explorers.

7. The first time the Europeans visited Oyo was 1824 and they saw no empire but a small village whose ruler, the Alaafin was being harassed by his neighbours with the Alaafin calling on the Oba of Benin for military help.

One thing is to lie, another thing is to be able to defend these lies.

The truth is Oyo was a village that dominated other smaller villages and people around her. Some of these people have been annexed and are today comfortable with their Oyo yoruba identity.

The myth of yoruba coming from Ife was created in the 1800s to accommodate anyone that want to be part of the larger Oyo family.

Oyo is yoruba and those that want to became yoruba goes through the Ife, Oduduwa myths, this is why the Ijebu claim of coming from Sudan causes disaffection amongst yoruba.[/s]

This one have lost shame.

Hey @samuk, you do not miss any slight opportunity of being an object of disgrace on Nairaland.

You acted a fool in this very manner months ago and you got schooled/humiliated by @Abohboy — only to leave that thread quietly with your tail between your legs and get down here acting the same fool again.

Refer to the link below for a gentle reminder of your prior humiliation on this matter:

https://www.nairaland.com/6780162/there-really-oyo-empire/2#106368638

Cheers.