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Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 - Travel (734) - Nairaland

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Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by viviangogos(f): 9:02pm On Dec 27, 2021
For every study permit, you are entitled to work 20 hrs during school and 40hrs during break. for applying for a Masters afterwards, it is possible. However, most Canadian schools close admission acceptance early for each session so it will be hard to get your result and still make it for the next immediate intake, except of course you are not using this route for study visa extension. then you can go for the next available session after graduation.

Palmstudy:
Hello House, please I want to know if applying for a PGD in Canada I can get job while on it. And if i can apply for msc while about finishing the pgd?

1 Like

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by viviangogos(f): 9:17pm On Dec 27, 2021
My input would be be if the concerns were all properly addressed in this re submission?
they mentioned
1) The Spouse payslip was illegible; hope you have attached a very clear one now?
2) SOP was poorly documented; Hope someone has helped review the new SOP to be sure it captured the purpose as detailed and straight to the point as possible.
3) Lumpsum; Was this clearly addressed? Make a table on your SOP or LOE to explain the funds you have and plan for the study in a way it can be understood.

I will also suggest in addition to the SOP, you actually write a LOE to address the refusal reasons ONLY. then the SOP will have the other study plan like your background, funds, home ties, reason for Canada and the DLI chosen, benefit of study to home country, etc. hence you can submit a LOE and an SOP. ( well I did this for mine after my initial refusal)

Note: This is only a suggestion as it is not compulsory if you have addressed the necessary concerns on the SOP.

All the best!!!



Lani84:
Hello friends, I hope everyone is doing well. My sister got her GCMS notes, and we are ready to re-apply. I have attached the reason for refusal. She is married, but her husband is staying behind. Please see the documents we are planning to attach (asides from the standard ones like police clearance):

1. New Statement of Purpose
2. Spousal letter of support
3. Spousal affidavit of support
4. Letter of explanation for spouse's bank statement
5. Letter of Introduction from her office
6. Spouse's letter of employment
7. Spouse's payslips
8. Her payslips
9. Her CV
10. Her work ID
11. Her letter of admission
12. 1 year tuition payment evidence
13. Her mutual funds statement
14. Her marriage certificate

Are we missing anything please?

Thank you all as always. May God help us

3 Likes

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by viviangogos(f): 9:26pm On Dec 27, 2021
Google my dear will do this. Once you type out IOM or Qlife.
see the websites below though:

IOM; https://mymedical.iom.int/apps/omas/#_frmHome
Qlife; https://www.qlifefamilyclinic.com/appointments-landing

All the best!!!
Oviebright:

Thanks but can you assist me with IOM official website so I can book it? Or their customer service number? Asin as I wan take book am when I nor get their website address?

2 Likes

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Creativeowos: 9:55pm On Dec 27, 2021
Hello guys, please i did my medicals at Qlife last week and my blood pressure was high, i was really surprised because am just 27years old. Do they refuse someone because of blood pressure. Please anybody that knows the perfect answer should reply please ���
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Benquip: 10:03pm On Dec 27, 2021
Hello guys, please is when somebody collects a new passport after the previous has expired with the visa and is it possible to reapply for a new visa so you can travel out of the country and return back during school breaks.
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Benquip: 10:04pm On Dec 27, 2021
Creativeowos:
Hello guys, please i did my medicals at Qlife last week and my blood pressure was high, i was really surprised because am just 27years old. Do they refuse someone because of blood pressure. Please anybody that knows the perfect answer should reply please ���
I has a similar case of high blood pressure when I was told by IRCC to redo my medicals because it expired and got a positive response from IRCC recently on medical pass
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by makano: 10:19pm On Dec 27, 2021
Hello themankelechi

Find attached the processing time ..

As regards your second question, Medicals does not determine the start of Eligibilty review.. Eligibility review can start anytime, it can start few days, weeks, months after the submission of your application..

Which means your eligibility can start before or after your medical request..

Peace
themankelechi:
Thanks boss for the response...

I submitted my application around November 25th, is it still in the processing time?

And please what's the processing time for a study permit application?

Also is it after undergoing and passing the medicals that eligibility review dodoestart on the application?

Thanks.


1 Like

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by makano: 10:27pm On Dec 27, 2021
Hello Creativeowos

High BP is never a reason for failing medicals..

What the clinics do is that once they notice an applicant has a high bp, they advise the applicant does his or her medicals when the bp has dropped, after which they conduct the medicalexamination.. They won't conduct Medical examination if the Bp is high, until when it comes down to normal..

Peace
Creativeowos:
Hello guys, please i did my medicals at Qlife last week and my blood pressure was high, i was really surprised because am just 27years old. Do they refuse someone because of blood pressure. Please anybody that knows the perfect answer should reply please ���
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by PapaObi: 10:28pm On Dec 27, 2021
Yes, sorry I mean no! Lol your blood pressure was high and you still over thinking things it can get worse o. Don't worry at all, its not an issue.
Creativeowos:
Hello guys, please i did my medicals at Qlife last week and my blood pressure was high, i was really surprised because am just 27years old. Do they refuse someone because of blood pressure. Please anybody that knows the perfect answer should reply please ���
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by PapaObi: 10:34pm On Dec 27, 2021
Filling it doesn't take long and you can do that the day before your trip even two days before. Do not stress
Fleshofmankind1:
Hello everyone am travelling on the 29th of December so I went for my Covid test today by 2:00pm and the said it must be 72hrs f it to last am getting there on the 30th by 12:05pm , I guess I would still make the 72hrs , then please when best can I fill my arrival can ? Is it at the airport before my flight takes off .

1 Like

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by AbiolaSYA: 10:49pm On Dec 27, 2021
Ketima:


Since your using a sponsor,

1) yes you need to submit the sponsors SOA as well. This will help to explain the lump sum in your account, and as well help clear the VO on where the fund came from and for what purpose. Also a good sponsorship Letter will help as well.

2). You don't need to wait till 4 months. As stated above in (1), since is money sent to you by sposnor for your Education, you don't need the fund to stay up to 4 months.

Generally, lumpsums isn't bad. Is it only bad ad a red flag when source of it wasn't explained and not backed up with solid paperwork proof.

Thank you so much @Ketima. God bless you.
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Uvray: 10:58pm On Dec 27, 2021
Creativeowos:
Hello guys, please i did my medicals at Qlife last week and my blood pressure was high, i was really surprised because am just 27years old. Do they refuse someone because of blood pressure. Please anybody that knows the perfect answer should reply please ���

HI,

Pls don't fret about it. When I did my medicals, my blood pressure was high too. My medical was updated to pass afterwards. As long as all the other tests were ok, there is nothing to worry about. Blood pressure may be high for a number of reasons like stress and anxiety. Its not a communicable disease. I wish you all the best.

2 Likes

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by opomulero(m): 11:48pm On Dec 27, 2021
Creativeowos:
Hello guys, please i did my medicals at Qlife last week and my blood pressure was high, i was really surprised because am just 27years old. Do they refuse someone because of blood pressure. Please anybody that knows the perfect answer should reply please ���

pls how much did you do the medicals?
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by themankelechi: 11:55pm On Dec 27, 2021
Thank you so much for your time and clarification boss makano...
I guess i have to wait for them to drop the medical request and i pray it drops soonest. Amen!

Best regards.

makano:
Hello themankelechi

Find attached the processing time ..

As regards your second question, Medicals does not determine the start of Eligibilty review.. Eligibility review can start anytime, it can start few days, weeks, months after the submission of your application..

Which means your eligibility can start before or after your medical request..

Peace
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by pipz(m): 12:17am On Dec 28, 2021
Hello Sirs/Ma

Please, I'm applying for someone for an Undergraduate diploma in Canada and intend to be this person's sponsor.
He's 37 (married with 2 kids) already holds 2 undergraduate degrees from Nigeria and presently works with a state government as a Coast guard. His 1st undergraduate degree is a 3rd class, the reason he had to go back for another degree which he came out with a 2.2 but low CPGA.

1. when applying should I include his degrees, but I think that doesn't show a progression since he already holds 2 undergrad degrees and now intends to go for another undergrad?

2. or should I only use his WAEC since the minimum requirement for the course is secondary school cert.

3. What are the things that I should watch out for that will increase his chances of gaining admission and also granted a study VISA.

Thank you and Compliments of the Season.
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Adwoa816: 12:38am On Dec 28, 2021
Reomond:

Thanks for this and congratulations!

Pls can you share what the content of this authorization letter from your husband should look like please? Just a brief summary to serve as a guide. Thanks! @Adwoa816

LETTER OF CONSENT FOR VISA IN FAVOR OF Bleep
I, xxxx, is the biological father of xxxxx, a minor born on the Bleep in Bleep . I authorize the full issuance of a Canadian visa to Bleep to join his mother, who is currently a student at xxxx in Canada.
I, Bleep further declare that I and my wife, Bleep have full parental authority over our son and that I am not divorced or separated or have not initiated divorce proceedings with my wife.
I, have agreed that my wife, should take along, our son so he can have the ample care and attention in his educational progression and development.
I pray your office grants him all the needed assistance and courtesies for his study visa application as this will enormously aid with his development as a child.
Many thanks for your assistance.
Sincerely,

9 Likes 3 Shares

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Chuksiesmom: 1:26am On Dec 28, 2021
Thanks lekkiboboe. I just saw your response to a similar question. I will give it a try and provide an update.


Hello,
Merry Christmas nairalanders!
I created my GC Key account and I am done with the questionnaire. I am struggling to open the IMM forms. The content of the form does not load. Meanwhile my adobe has the current update. I have tried it on two computers and still keep getting this. Did anyone get this too and how was it solved. I have tried oo cha! cheesy ...please i need help. Thank you in advance
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by emmalextemtop: 1:39am On Dec 28, 2021
Debbieeeeeee:

Ojota to vfs Lekki is quite a distance, try to leave home early.
Okay, thanks, am sure i should get there before 12noon if i leave like 9a.m, right? my biometrics is by 12:40pm.
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Chuksiesmom: 1:40am On Dec 28, 2021
Thanks Lekiboboe. This addresses my question too. Its really good to read thru the thread always grin.

Lekiboboe:


Read this Post

How to download ADOBE ACROBAT DC Reader & how to fill IMM forms
https://www.nairaland.com/6719291/canadian-student-visa-thread-part/455#107116232

1 Like

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by greeners222(m): 1:55am On Dec 28, 2021
From ojota ask anybody where Ojota/iyana oworo route is. You probably can take a walk back and climb the Bridge. Obalande CMS bus Via 3rd mainland bridge is your fastest. If you go through ojota Maryland its going to be congested. So ask for thirdmainland bridge route.



emmalextemtop:

Okay, thanks, am sure i should get there before 12noon if i leave like 9a.m, right? my biometrics is by 12:40pm.

1 Like

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Lekiboboe: 2:05am On Dec 28, 2021
Chuksiesmom:

Thanks Lekiboboe. This addresses my question too. Its really good to read thru the thread always grin.

You are welcome, the bolded can't be overemphasized wink
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Viewoliver: 2:48am On Dec 28, 2021
You will not even fail the medical examination or let alone be refused your visa as a result of HBP. I had same issue at IOM Abuja where both the nurses and the doctor complained of my Blood Pressure being in the high side. Though my medical was updated to "passed" in four days time afternoon the examination.
Please, don't worry about that. Your medical will be updated to pass in as much as you don't have any other serious health challenges.
It will end in praise.

Creativeowos:
Hello guys, please i did my medicals at Qlife last week and my blood pressure was high, i was really surprised because am just 27years old. Do they refuse someone because of blood pressure. Please anybody that knows the perfect answer should reply please ���

2 Likes

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Oviebright: 7:31am On Dec 28, 2021
Good morning everyone hope you all enjoyed your Xmas? Please can one be a self sponsor and have a co sponsor too?
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by lehinme: 7:58am On Dec 28, 2021
Goodday all. Pls any tips on how to use the Arrivecan app? Having difficulties with it and scheduled to leave for Toronto on Thursday. I have downloaded the app but when I try signing in the app appears ‘frozen’
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by cedrick: 9:21am On Dec 28, 2021
kjsoteria:
Please how does one book for biometric appointment in Lagos? I’ve been trying to book through this site but it’s not working
https://visa.vfsglobal.com/nga/en/can/book-an-appointment

Are walk-ins allowed?


Good day.
I did mine in October(27th,2021) with IOM. I went to their office at Ikeja and was advised to send mail to their address iomlagosmedicalbooking@iom.int (This was after I tried it from their website and it was giving late December 2021 available dates. The mail simple- just the your intention ( mine was study in Canada) and I attached the advice I received to go for the medical test and the scanned copy of my international passport. In the body of mail I stated my full name and my immigration application number ( although the med.advice already contained this). You will receive an auto generated response that bookings are now being done online , but within 4 working days you will get their schedule advice. see sample below
The message also shows the different amount applicable to different age brackets

Dear Applicant,

Your CANADA Medical appointment has been booked in Lagos office and confirmed as follows:


Applicant Name:

XXXXXXXXXXXXC

Date:21ST October,2021

Time: 7:00am

(Please note that the whole process will take a minimum of 6 hours)

What to bring to on your appointment day:

Original international passport and photocopy
Printed proof of payment (hardcopy)
Printed IME form (does not apply for upfront medicals)
Face Mask
Covid 19 Vaccination card (for applicants who have been vaccinated) and photocopy

*Payment should be made before reporting for medical screening, Transfer Payment is preferable and for families one bulk (transfer) payment is acceptable*


PAYMENT DETAILS

Name of bank: Standard Chartered Bank
Account no: xxxxxxxxxx
Sort code: xxxxxxxxxx
Account Name: International Organization for Migration (IOM)
Reference: Applicant’s passport number

3 Likes

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by cedrick: 9:28am On Dec 28, 2021
opomulero:


please how much is the cost of medicals?

with IOM as at October 2021 ( don't know if it has changed by now) it was


0 -4 yrs=34,500
5-10 yrs=36,500
11-14 yrs=40,500
Adult (15 yrs &above)46,500

1 Like

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by makano: 9:42am On Dec 28, 2021
You are welcome

Once your application has passed the processing time, then you can start sending IRCC emails..

Or better still,Immediately book an appointment for your Upfront Medicals in any of the IRCC approved clinics, i.e IOM nad Qlife, once you do your medical Examination, the clinic will submit your Medical results to IRCC, and in few days or weeks, it will be updated to Pass..

Peace
themankelechi:
Thank you so much for your time and clarification boss makano...
I guess i have to wait for them to drop the medical request and i pray it drops soonest. Amen!

Best regards.

1 Like

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Jeff5gold: 9:57am On Dec 28, 2021
Creativeowos:
Hello guys, please i did my medicals at Qlife last week and my blood pressure was high, i was really surprised because am just 27years old. Do they refuse someone because of blood pressure. Please anybody that knows the perfect answer should reply please ���


No worries
Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by makano: 10:17am On Dec 28, 2021
Hello Pipz

Sorry to tell you this, but this application won't fly..

A 37-year-old going for an Undergraduate Diploma is a total red flag, what's wrong with applying for a PGD or PGC?

He has a third-class doesn't mean he can't get a PGD admission in any of the good colleges In Canada.. Now you are planning on hiding his 2 undergraduate degrees in Nigeria, meaning you will have a lot of explaining to do as regards his study gaps during that period he was doing his undergraduate studies... Do not complicate things for yourself bro,I will be truthful to you,this application won't fly, It's only an agent that is just after your money that will give you this kinda advice..

This is what you will do, since you have 2 undergraduate degrees, one with a 3rd class, the other with a 2:2. You can apply for a PGD admission with the 2:2 UDD, even 3rd class graduates get PGD admission.. Having a PGD admission at his age and stage in life will fly than going for another undergraduate diploma after 2 previous Undergraduate degrees at the age of 37 years...

This is my advice, as you can choose to take it or not...

Peace
pipz:
Hello Sirs/Ma

Please, I'm applying for someone for an Undergraduate diploma in Canada and intend to be this person's sponsor.
He's 37 (married with 2 kids) already holds 2 undergraduate degrees from Nigeria and presently works with a state government as a Coast guard. His 1st undergraduate degree is a 3rd class, the reason he had to go back for another degree which he came out with a 2.2 but low CPGA.

1. when applying should I include his degrees, but I think that doesn't show a progression since he already holds 2 undergrad degrees and now intends to go for another undergrad?

2. or should I only use his WAEC since the minimum requirement for the course is secondary school cert.

3. What are the things that I should watch out for that will increase his chances of gaining admission and also granted a study VISA.

Thank you and Compliments of the Season.

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Jxool: 10:21am On Dec 28, 2021
It’s a total red flag but documents submitted with the application sometimes do matter. Am 40years and I apply for diploma with weac. I got approved

It’s all God

makano:
Hello Pipz

Sorry to tell you this, but this application won't fly..

A 37-year-old going for an Undergraduate Diploma is a total red flag, what's wrong with applying for a PGD or PGC?

He has a third-class doesn't mean he can't get a PGD admission in any of the good colleges In Canada.. Now you are planning on hiding his 2 undergraduate degrees in Nigeria, meaning you will have a lot of explaining to do as regards his study gaps during that period he was doing his undergraduate studies... Do not complicate things for yourself bro,I will be truthful to you,this application won't fly, It's only an agent that is just after your money that will give you this kinda advice..

This is what you will do, since you have 2 undergraduate degrees, one with a 3rd class, the other with a 2:2. You can apply for a PGD admission with the 2:2 UDD, even 3rd class graduates get PGD admission.. Having a PGD admission at his age and stage in life will fly than going for another undergraduate diploma after 2 previous Undergraduate degrees at the age of 37 years...

This is my advice, as you can choose to take it or not...

Peace

2 Likes

Re: Canadian Student Visa Thread Part 20 by Predator188: 10:26am On Dec 28, 2021
HakHim:
Hello good morning everyone good morning to all the gurus as well.

It will be a long post and please I really need guidance and help/ advice.

Kindly read.

I have gotten two refusals.

My first application.....

I applied first early this year. Self sponsored. 18M in three banks all statements attached, but had lump sum deposit in one of them (sold some assets).

HERE WAS THE REFUSAL REASONS

"I am not satisfied that you will leave Canada at the end of your stay, as stipulated in subsection 216(1) of the IRPR, based in your family ties in Canada and your country of residence."

"I am not satisfied that you will leave Canada at the end of your stay, as stipulated in subsection 216(1) of the IRPR based on personal asset and financial status."

REQUESTED GCMS....

HERE IT IS......

PA is self funded. Employment letter shows PA makes 16,000 annually. Funds provided are not commensurate to PA income. Transaction on bank statement shows lump sum deposit. Source of funds unknown. Concerns about funding. Bank statement to be verified.

{[/b] please note that in my SOP I stated there the businesses that I do I attached CAC OF MY COMPANY I ALSO PUT THE RECEIPT OF ALL EQUIPMENT THAT I HAVE FOR MY BUSINESS, so my only source was not just my salary, but I think I was judged based on only my salary as my only source of income}[b]

HERE IS THE REPORT FROM IMMIGRATION AND BORDER CANADA

"I have reviewed the application. the applicant is seeking to study in Canada. I am not satisfied that the applicants will leave Canada at the end of their stay as a temporary residence. I note that the client is single, mobile, is not well established and has no dependents. taking the applicants plan of studies into account the documentation provided in support of the applicants financial situation does not demonstrate the funds will be sufficient or available. I am not satisfied that the proposed studies would be a reasonable expense weighing the factors in this application I am not satisfied that the applicant will adhere to the terms and conditions imposed as a temporary residence. For this reason above I have refused this application."

SECOND APPLICATION.....

I submitted LOE, I explained the source of income, I gave a detailed financial table that shows how much I make from each equipments and how much I have in the bank. I used a sponsor (cousin) this time around he has 13M balance and sent me 2.6M for my first semester tuition.

I paid first semester tuition. I still submitted my personal bank statement of 17M. They verified my bank account from the first application and I also reminded them that the funds are still very much there seated for months now that it is mine....

Yet I still got a refusal ... Here is the reasons again from my refusal letter. I just requested for my gcms note

"I am not satisfied that you will leave Canada at the end of your stay, as stipulated in subsection 216(1) of the IRPR, based in your family ties in Canada and your country of residence."

"I am not satisfied that you will leave Canada at the end of your stay, as stipulated in subsection 216(1) of the IRPR based on personal asset and financial status.".......


I ORDERED GCMS FOR THE SECOND APPLICATION, HERE IS WHAT IT SAYS....

[b]I HAVE CONSIDERED THE POSITIVE FACTORS OUTLINED by THE APPLICANT, INCLUDING STATEMENTS OR OTHER EVIDENCE.

THE APPLICANT HAS PROVIDED A REASON FOR THEIR VISIT TO CANADA

HOWEVER I HAVE GIVEN LESS WEIGHT TO THE POSITIVE FACTORS FOR THE FOLLOWING REASONS

I NOTE THAT THE APPLICANT INTENDS TO SELF SPONSOR,

HOWEVER GIVEN THAT INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE OF ALTERNATIVE INCOME HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED THE FUNDS AVAILABLE DON'T APPEAR TO BE COMMENSURATE TO HIS MONTHLY INCOME HENCE THE SOURCE OF FUNDS IN THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT IS NOT CLEAR INCLUDING ITS AVAILABILITY TO SUPPORT THE APPLICANT STUDY IN CANADA

I ALSO NOTE THAT THE APPLICANT COUSIN INTEND TO CO-SPONSOR studies however given the evidence of relationship/connection to third-party sponsor and the history of financial support are not sufficiently substantiated,I have concerns about the credibility of the sponsorship, limited obligation for the 3rd party sponsor to provide ongoing financial support.

based on the review of this document presented in support of this application the application appears not to be well established in the home country

I am not satisfied that the applicant to leave Canada at the end of their stay as temporary resident, I note that the applicant is not well established in home country has not demonstrated proof of dependent dependents. given the lack of family ties or economic motives to remain in home country the applicant incentives to remain in Canada may outweigh their ties to their home country

Weighing the factors in the application I am not satisfied that the applicant will depart Canada at the end of the period authorised for their stay

for the reasons above I have refused this application.[/b]


Please can you advice or let me know what next to do.... As I have addressed the concerns from the first application I even used a sponsor this time around.....
In the first refusal your proposed study did not correspond with your previous education or work experience this damages your credibility of financing the program... The VO not satisfied why you want to study this program .you will not adhere to conditions attached to your stay .. ....you are Refused based on choice of program .


You are refused because there is some evidence of fund parking, they believe the money was deposited only for visa purpose, build up your statement of account let them see lots of various pages of income and expense for at least 6 months ..separate business income statement from salary statement if possible....

The VO claimed you are mobile,you are all over the place from one employment to another and not well established,to them and from my own point of view how do you handle two sources of income at the same time..
Do you have sales person,secretary manager etc ..who handles this business when you are not around you need letter of intro from your business employee

Your are refused based on family ties , you are single and employed, to the VO ,there is more weight on your other employment than your personal business... Will your employer retain you when you complete your education abroad,will the propose study benefit the employer if so..you need employment letter from them stating your job description,how your proposed study will benefit them,that they will retain you when your program ends... This is an incentive to return to home country..This will clear tie issue to country of origin ..a clear evidence of your business ongoing will remove tie issues

There is no documents to proof your relationship with 3rd party sponsor birth certificate any relate to mother or father...your cousin ,any sought of history of transfer of money to your bank account by cousin ,and letter of sponsorship and explained relationship with prove including ID I think this complicated the issue ..prove the above..

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