TAO11:
Now you’ve been disgraced over your claim that Oyo can’t be far from coast and also near the Niger River.

I have demonstrated that Oyo was indeed far from the coast and also near the Niger River. See the map again for refresher.
———-

You’ve also been disgraced over your claim that some Europeans were traveling up and down the River for 400 years, i.e. from the 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, to 1700s and 1800s.

The first time ever when an European sailed the River, from source to termination, was the year 1830.

Seeing that you have been disgraced, you now want to stylishly backtrack. Lol.

You now want to change mouth to another issue, i.e., that Europeans who have been sailing the River didn’t find any Oyo around near the River. Lol.

Even with this new one, let’s see below if you won’t be disgraced again as in your above earlier comment.


You must really think you’re talking to some random Bini dullards at Ogbe street in Benin city.

Now to disgrace you again:
Mungo Park’s first travel to the Niger River was over land; from Gambia to Ségou in Mali (marked “x” on the map). See attached map. See also attached note.

Furthermore, his actual sailing on the River was not in 1795-6. Lol. It was in the year 1805. See note attached

Moreover, he couldn’t sail the River’s complete length because as he sailed on and approached from Mali to Niger, he and his team drowned at Bussa (point “b” on the map) as they entered the Nigeria region.

Death didn’t allow Mungo Park get to or sight the Oyo area o. Chai! . Lol

Get a book and read, you won’t listen. Now see how you’re being humiliated back and forth on top simple ‘current affairs’.

And how did you get 400 years between 1795 & 1806 samuk? Help yourself and read a book today.

Of course the Lander brothers are the first Europeans to sail the River from source to termination in 1830.

And of course Richard Lander, et al. certainly stayed at Oyo. In fact, they were at Oyo prior to the exploration of the River.

Their great description of this empire may leave you in tears of jealousy. For example, Clapperton (who was in Oyo with his servant Richard Lander) writes:

“We first began inquiring after his health. I then told him that I was the king of England's servant, sent by his majesty to beg his acceptance of a present, which then lay before me; that we had heard his (the king of Youriba's) name mentioned in England as a great king; that we now experienced the truth of the report; that three white men, two of them my companions, and one a servant, had died on the road; that another of my companions was at Dahomey, to ask the king of that country to allow him a passage through his dominions.”
~ Journal of a Second Expedition, (1829), p. 38.

Now you know that the Alaafin was known in Europe as a great king (by the greatest EUrOpEaN king of the time) even before the EUrOpEaNs visited there.

Oh wait, you need the word E-M-P-I-R-E spelt out and not just the wowing greatness? Not to worry. Lol.

“From that period a mallam has never ventured to enter the gates of Katunga¹, and the Mohammedan religion was soon forgotten by the people. They have, however, penetrated beyond the empire of Yariba², two Houssa holy men, having found their way to Jannah, the town in which Dr. Morrison, it is said, died and was buried, and three others to Badagry; …”
~ Richard Lander, “Records of Captain Clapperton’s Last Expedition to Africa,” Vol. 1., (1830), pp. 279-280.

^1,2 “The city of Eyeo (in Houssa language, Katunga), the capital of Yourriba …”
~ Journal of a Second Expedition, (1829), pp. 58.


Read a book, read a book you won’t listen. Now see how you’ve been embarrassing yourself back to back.


Cheers.

The Europeans were active in west Africa from 1400s to 1800s hundreds. They travelled the Niger River and the Atlantic coast at various times but there are no first hand account from them of seeing Oyo empire.

Clapperton didn't say he saw an empire, what he said he saw in 1826 was an Alaafin who said he was facing rebellion and requested military assistance from Benin.

The empire you deceptively squeeze into your reply was not seen by Hugh Clapperton you referenced/cited.

Show us one European from the numerous Europeans that were active in west Africa from the 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, 1700s that had a first hand account of seeing Oyo empire.

I simply need a European eyewitness account of Oyo empire. You don't built and hide an empire in a box. Early Europeans heard about all important west Africa kingdoms and visited them starting from late 1400s. Oyo wasn't visited until 1826, this shows how important it was. Itsekiri, Lagos under Benin and Benin itself were visited repeatedly centuries before 1826, same century the European powers dethroned strong and uncooperative Africa kings that pave way for them to divide the kingdoms amongst themselves.

Oyo and Alaafin were only too willing to submit themselves to the white man who the Alaafin confirmed they saw for the first time in 1826. According to the Alaafin, they have been hearing about the white man who have been visiting Benin for almost 400 years but have never seen one. So the Alaafin was only too happy to receive them in 1826.

If you must reply, simply present European eyewitness account of visiting Oyo empire, otherwise, you can throw in the towel, take a bow and go.

You modified your penultimate comment to include more falsehood. I dey here for you.

To humiliate you has always been my business. You won’t stop lying, and I won’t stop humiliating you.

samuk:
Hugh Clapperton continued his journey, and, passing through the Yoruba country, in January 1826 he crossed the Niger at Bussa, the spot where Mungo Park had died twenty years before

Yes Clapperton, et al. did, and that was after they had stayed at Oyo-Ile, met its king whom they confirmed to be indeed great, and whose territory they regarded as an “empire”.

Hugh Clapperton did reach Oyo and visited the Alaafin of Oyo in 1826, what Clapperton saw was a small village and not an empire.

Eeerm, sorry.

Capt. Hugh Clapperton begs to differ with you. You’re irredeemably pathetic for lying against him.

Here is Clapperton’s actual words confirming the king to be indeed great, and following that too is Lander’s confirming that his dominion is an “empire”:

“We first began inquiring after his health. I then told him that I was the king of England's servant, sent by his majesty to beg his acceptance of a present, which then lay before me; that we had heard his (the king of Youriba's) name mentioned in England as a great king; that we now experienced the truth of the report; that three white men, two of them my companions, and one a servant, had died on the road; that another of my companions was at Dahomey, to ask the king of that country to allow him a passage through his dominions.”

~Capt. Clapperton; “ Journal of a Second Expedition,” (1829), p. 38.

“From that period a mallam has never ventured to enter the gates of Katunga, and the Mohammedan religion was soon forgotten by the people. They have, however, penetrated beyond the empire of Yariba, two Houssa holy men, having found their way to Jannah, the town in which Dr. Morrison, it is said, died and was buried, and three others to Badagry; …”

~Richard Lander, “Records of Captain Clapperton’s Last Expedition to Africa,” Vol. 1., (1830), pp. 279-280.

The Alaafin even told Clapperton that he had sent to Oba of Benin for military assistance to help end the rebellion he was facing from his neighbours....other smaller villages around him.

Duh!

So, we have already seen a EUrOpEaN eyewitness who spelt it out that Oyo attained “empire” status.

Could you now show us a EUrOpEaN eyewitness who said Benin attained “empire” status? Lmao.

Yes, we need to see the word “empire” in the original first hand report. Go on.
————

Anyway, the rebellion wasn’t from neighbors nor was it from “small villages”. Such words aren’t found in the writings of Clapperton. They’re only found in your wild imagination.

And what point exactly are you getting at with the fact that the the Alaafin sent to your Oba to send in some Bini slaves who should come and die at the hands of a rebellious Oyo province??

The entire length of the Niger River from source to ocean including the interior was travelled by Europeans explorers in the 1700s and 1800s

No, sorry.

No European sailed the Niger River from its source to termination in the 1700s. Lol.

Provide some evidence if you’d insist otherwise. That shouldn’t be difficult. Or should it?

The first time ever that Europeans sailed the River from its source to its termination was in the 1800s.

…and didn’t witness an Oyo empire

No, sorry.

They did visit and stayed at Oyo-Ile. Yes they noted it it to be the capital of the “empire”.

See quotes from the eyewitness accounts again.

So the Benin military garrison and military barracks filled with soldiers that was stationed in Lagos in the 1500s and witnessed by the Europeans in 1602 was for what purpose.....oh maybe to admire the Atlantic ocean

Garrison and Barracks kọ; Garri and Barack Obama ni?

This boy is a clown. You’ve been shut down on this lie many times. You’re only re-trying — perhaps you may successfully hoodwink a Bini dullard. You’re too sure of your people’s stupidity.

Again, the Europeans’ visit was in the late-1603/early-1604. Of course the report doesn’t mention “garrison” or “barracks” on Lagos island. Lol.

The most it indicates is that Bini immigrants settled in one part of the island. The same report also indicated that some other groups also stayed on other parts of that very same island of Lagos.

The settlement where those Binis stayed was called a “town” in that report, not garrison nor barrack.

However, the report mentioned that the Bini residents who settled in the “town” on the island were required (at some point in the course of their stay) by their Ọba to attack another Bini camp/settlement/town.

This second Bini town [located west of the Lagos area and also near the coast] is said, in the report, to have betrayed their Ọba, and as such should be brought to justice by the Bini group camped on Lagos island.

The Bini group on Lagos island have tried long & hard to attack and conquer this second location only to fail until they were assisted by some visiting traders who had canons that brought down their walls.

For details (and a sweet reminder of how you’ve been humiliated on this last year) refer to the link below:

https://www.nairaland.com/6482972/name-lagos-called-ekonunuame-benins/10#104477483

In the 1500s, tradition had it that Benin dynasty was ruling in Ida, middle belt Nigeria, this is the reason that the Ogane mentioned in Benin history in the 1400s and Uhe points to this location not your Ife, Osun state 1800s political fabrication.

Lmao.

You’re still fighting your inner demons on this. Says a lot about how broken I left you & your minions.

First of all, let’s even assume that a Benin dynasty did indeed rule at Idah. If anything, shouldn’t that tell you already that the Ogané of the Portuguese text to whom your Benin Ọbas are subordinate cannot possibly be his Idah descendant? Do you have a brain?

The Ogané of the Portuguese text to whom the Benin Ọbas are subordinate is none but the Ọɣọni of Ifẹ. See attachment below for a summary of the consensus of historical scholarship on this today.

Screenshot Reference: Adam Knobler; “Mythology and Diplomacy in the Age of Exploration,” Brill, 2016, p. 47.

Same 1500s Benin already expanded her territories to Lagos and all important villages in between were controlled by Benin in one shape or form.

Eeerm … Sorry, no.

A Bini immigrant trading community settled in a part of the island — just as many other immigrant groups who also did around the same period. That’s the case.

No, the only place your Ọba ruled was Benin city and of course its surrounding Edoid villages. Shikena.

We are still waiting for eyewitness historical accounts of any Europeans that witness your fictitious Oyo empire.

You’re probably reading the comments while you are blindfolded. Lol.

Otherwise, you should have already seen the words of those who stayed at Oyo-Ile, and who clearly regarded what they saw as the capital of an “empire”.

Abi you’re managing some kind of selective seeing disorder ni? Lol

Cheers.

samuk:
The Europeans were active in west Africa from 1400s to 1800s hundreds.

The EUrOpEaNs visited west Africa for the first time in the 1470s when they explored Èkó and its lakes.

(No they didn’t visit your Benin kingdom in case you’re asking yourself). Lol.

They didn’t dare to penetrate deep into the forest, let alone cross it, until in the 1800s.

They restricted themselves to the Atlantic coast & the Atlantic coastal regions and kingdoms.

If you know of any European who penetrated the deep forest of west/central Africa in the 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, and 1700s, please name them and provide your evidence.

They travelled the Niger River and the Atlantic coast at various times

If you know of any European who sailed the Niger River prior to the 1800s please name them and provide your evidence.

… but there are no first hand account from them of seeing Oyo empire.

Feigning blind is the worst trick you want to try at this time. It has failed on arrival. Try something else.

The first hand report of visitors who regarded Oyo-Ile as the capital of an empire have been provided to you time and again; but you keep feigning blind.

Clapperton didn't say he saw an empire, what he said he saw in 1826 was an Alaafin who said he was facing rebellion and requested military assistance from Benin.

Yes, he saw an empire. Duh!

And yes it is also very common that an empire should experience rebellion in some of its provinces.

And yes the Oyo emperor did send a message to your Ọba to send in some Bini slaves who should come die at the hands of the rebellious Oyo province.

The empire you deceptively squeeze into your reply was not seen by Hugh Clapperton you referenced/cited

I didn’t sQuEeZe anything in, you scared little rat.

I simply quoted Richard Lander’s first hand report. Yes he was there with Clapperton at Oyo. He was servant to Clapperton.

I am set to quote him again, and I really hope I’m not tempting you to be suicid@l:

“From that period a mallam has never ventured to enter the gates of Katunga, and the Mohammedan religion was soon forgotten by the people. They have, however, penetrated beyond the empire of Yariba, two Houssa holy men, having found their way to Jannah, the town in which Dr. Morrison, it is said, died and was buried, and three others to Badagry; …”

~Richard Lander, “Records of Captain Clapperton’s Last Expedition to Africa,” Vol. 1., (1830), pp. 279-280.

Now that we have seen a EUrOpEaN eyewitness who spelt it out that Oyo attained “empire” status; would you now show me a EUrOpEaN eyewitness who said Benin attained “empire” status? Yes, the word empire in the first hand report is key. Let’s see it.

Show us one European from the numerous Europeans that were active in west Africa from the 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, 1700s that had a first hand account of seeing Oyo empire.

There is no single European who ventured deep into the forested interior of west or central African during the periods you mentioned.

They always do not go too far from the Atlantic coast.

The first time they dared to penetrate deep into the forest was in the 1800s.

And guess what happened when they did. Oyo is one of the first great kingdoms they hastened to visit.

They had only been hearing tells in England about the great Oyo king whose city is the capital of an empire. And they came to confirm what they’ve been hearing.

I simply need a European eyewitness account of Oyo empire. You don't built and hide an empire in a box. Early Europeans heard about all important west Africa kingdoms and visited them starting from late 1400s.

Name one village, town, or kingdom located very far from its coast in the deep forest and was visited by a EUrOpEaN in the 1400s.

And what you pretend that you “nEeD” has been given to to you time and again on this thread.

Oyo wasn't visited until 1826, this shows how important it was. Itsekiri, Lagos under Benin itself were visited repeatedly centuries before 1826,

No, that shows how deep in the interior Oyo was.

——
It wasn’t until in the 1800s that these Europeans were willing to take the risk of going deep into the forest of west and central Africa. Oyo was even farther beyond the forest region; it lies in the savanna region beyond.

We’re naturally more immune to Plasmodium which is typical of the deeply forested regions of the west and central Africa. Europeans, on the other hand, are not. Such venture was thus a dangerous one, especially at a time when they haven’t yet had freaking “quinine”.
——

Lagos & Itsekiri, on the other hand, are located near the Atlantic coast where the Europeans’ ships berth on arrival from Europe. And Benin-city itself is not far from the harbor at Ughoton near the coast.

BTW, Lagos Lagos-island was ruled by kings of Yoruba paternal root from beginning till date. And Itsekiri was always sovereign and independent from Benin.

…same century the European powers dethroned strong and uncooperative Africa kings that pave way for them to divide the kingdoms amongst themselves.

You seem to be alluding to the dethronement and banishment of your Benin king in 1897.

No he wasn’t uncooperative. He’s always been a good boy. However, he was dethroned & banished because his people murdered members of a British delegation to Benin city.

He was thus dethroned & banished even though he denied knowing anything about the murder.

Oyo and Alaafin were only too willing to submit themselves to the white man who the Alaafin confirmed they saw for the first time in 1826. According to the Alaafin, they have been hearing about the white man who have been visiting Benin for almost 400 years but have never seen one. So the Alaafin was only too happy to receive them in 1826.

Yes, that was the first time they met one another even though his Oyo governors in the Dahomey region have been met regularly by them since the 1600s.

What must matter to any sane person is that Oyo was noted to be an empire, but Benin-city which has been easily accessed since the 1480s (just as Ijebu, et al. too has been) cannot boast of 1 first hand report wherein the word “empire” was used to describe it.

If you must reply, simply present European eyewitness account of visiting Oyo empire, otherwise, you can throw in the towel, take a bow and go

Like I said earlier, pretending to be blind wouldn’t save you from me. It has never saved you.

The quotations have been provided to you from first hand reports of those who were at Oyo in the 1800s.

Here are the quotations again. It is my prayer for you that your selective seeing disorder shouldn’t kick in:

“We first began inquiring after his health. I then told him that I was the king of England's servant, sent by his majesty to beg his acceptance of a present, which then lay before me; that we had heard his (the king of Youriba's) name mentioned in England as a great king; that we now experienced the truth of the report; that three white men, two of them my companions, and one a servant, had died on the road; that another of my companions was at Dahomey, to ask the king of that country to allow him a passage through his dominions.”

~Cap. H. Clapperton; “Journal of a Second Expedition,” (1829), p. 38.
.
.
.
“From that period a mallam has never ventured to enter the gates of Katunga, and the Mohammedan religion was soon forgotten by the people. They have, however, penetrated beyond the empire of Yariba, two Houssa holy men, having found their way to Jannah, the town in which Dr. Morrison, it is said, died and was buried, and three others to Badagry; …”

~Richard Lander, “Records of Captain Clapperton’s Last Expedition to Africa,” Vol. 1., (1830), pp. 279-280.

You want more? Then have more as shown below. The word “empire” is spelt out by the eyewitnesses in their descriptions of the dominion of the sovereign of Oyo:

“If a stranger from a remote part of the empire wishes to visit Katunga, in order to pay his respects to his sovereign, the chief or governor of every town through which he may happen to pass is obliged to furnish him with any number of carriers he may require; …”

~ Richard & John Lander; Journal of an Expedition to Explore the Course and Termination of the Niger, Vol. 1., (1833), p.174.

Cheers.

TAO11:
You modified your penultimate comment to include more falsehood. I dey here for you.

To humiliate you has always been my business. You won’t stop lying, and I won’t stop humiliating you.


Yes Clapperton, et al. did, and that was after they had stayed at Oyo-Ile, met its king whom they confirmed to be indeed great, and whose territory they regarded as an “empire”.

Eeerm, sorry.

Capt. Hugh Clapperton begs to differ with you. You’re irredeemably pathetic for lying against him.

Here is Clapperton’s actual words confirming the king to be indeed great, and following that too is Lander’s confirming that his dominion is an “empire”:

“We first began inquiring after his health. I then told him that I was the king of England's servant, sent by his majesty to beg his acceptance of a present, which then lay before me; that we had heard his (the king of Youriba's) name mentioned in England as a great king; that we now experienced the truth of the report; that three white men, two of them my companions, and one a servant, had died on the road; that another of my companions was at Dahomey, to ask the king of that country to allow him a passage through his dominions.”

~Capt. Clapperton; “ Journal of a Second Expedition,” (1829), p. 38.

“From that period a mallam has never ventured to enter the gates of Katunga, and the Mohammedan religion was soon forgotten by the people. They have, however, penetrated beyond the empire of Yariba, two Houssa holy men, having found their way to Jannah, the town in which Dr. Morrison, it is said, died and was buried, and three others to Badagry; …”

~Richard Lander, “Records of Captain Clapperton’s Last Expedition to Africa,” Vol. 1., (1830), pp. 279-280.

Duh!

So, we have already seen a EUrOpEaN eyewitness who spelt it out that Oyo attained “empire” status.

Could you now show us a EUrOpEaN eyewitness who said Benin attained “empire” status? Lmao.

Yes, we need to see the word “empire” in the original first hand report. Go on.
————

Anyway, the rebellion wasn’t from neighbors nor was it from “small villages”. Such words aren’t found in the writings of Clapperton. They’re only found in your wild imagination.

And what point exactly are you getting at with the fact that the the Alaafin sent to your Oba to send in some Bini slaves who should come and die at the hands of a rebellious Oyo province??

No, sorry.

No European sailed the Niger River from its source to termination in the 1700s. Lol.

Provide some evidence if you’d insist otherwise. That shouldn’t be difficult. Or should it?

The first time ever that Europeans sailed the River from its source to its termination was in the 1800s.

No, sorry.

They did visit and stayed at Oyo-Ile. Yes they noted it it to be the capital of the “empire”.

See quotes from the eyewitness accounts again.

Garrison and Barracks kọ; Garri and Barack Obama ni?

This boy is a clown. You’ve been shut down on this lie many times. You’re only re-trying — perhaps you may successfully hoodwink a Bini dullard. You’re too sure of your people’s stupidity.

Again, the Europeans’ visit was in the late-1603/early-1604. Of course the report doesn’t mention “garrison” or “barracks” on Lagos island. Lol.

The most it indicates is that Bini immigrants settled in one part of the island. The same report also indicated that some other groups also stayed on other parts of that very same island of Lagos.

The settlement where those Binis stayed was called a “town” in that report, not garrison nor barrack.

However, the report mentioned that the Bini residents who settled in the “town” on the island were required (at some point in the course of their stay) by their Ọba to attack another Bini camp/settlement/town.

This second Bini town [located west of the Lagos area and also near the coast] is said, in the report, to have betrayed their Ọba, and as such should be brought to justice by the Bini group camped on Lagos island.

The Bini group on Lagos island have tried long & hard to attack and conquer this second location only to fail until they were assisted by some visiting traders who had canons that brought down their walls.

For details (and a sweet reminder of how you’ve been humiliated on this last year) refer to the link below:

https://www.nairaland.com/6482972/name-lagos-called-ekonunuame-benins/10#104477483

Lmao.

You’re still fighting your inner demons on this. Says a lot about how broken I left you & your minions.

First of all, let’s even assume that a Benin dynasty did indeed rule at Idah. If anything, shouldn’t that tell you already that the Ogané of the Portuguese text to whom your Benin Ọbas are subordinate cannot possibly be his Idah descendant? Do you have a brain?

The Ogané of the Portuguese text to whom the Benin Ọbas are subordinate is none but the Ọɣọni of Ifẹ. See attachment below for a summary of the consensus of historical scholarship on this today.

Screenshot Reference: Adam Knobler; “Mythology and Diplomacy in the Age of Exploration,” Brill, 2016, p. 47.

Eeerm … Sorry, no.

A Bini immigrant trading community settled in a part of the island — just as many other immigrant groups who also did around the same period. That’s the case.

No, the only place your Ọba ruled was Benin city and of course its surrounding Edoid villages. Shikena.


You’re probably reading the comments while you are blindfolded. Lol.

Otherwise, you should have already seen the words of those who stayed at Oyo-Ile, and who clearly regarded what they saw as the capital of an “empire”.

Abi you’re managing some kind of selective seeing disorder ni? Lol

Cheers.

Tao11 don’t mind Samuk

The Alaafin Clapperton met had 400 wives alone
not including his Chiefs , Slaves, Children , Servants , Palace Officials and the Slaves,wives , Soldiers , Officials and Children of his High Chiefs and other Royal Princes with their individual Compounds families and Slaves

Does that alone sound like a village?

We have not yet included the People of Oyo and all of the Country of Dahomey ( Benin Repubic today ) that he ruled over
We have not included Atakpame and Aledjo areas of Togo o !

The Alaafin Of Oyo ruled over more Territory and People than the Oba of Benin
The Alaafins Territory reached the Ewe and Ga of Ghana


Every time the Army Of Oyo marched out to War the Equvalent of a Town followed them to the War Camp

TAO11:


There is no single European who ventured deep into the forested interior of west or central African during the periods you mentioned. They always do not go too far from the Atlantic coast.

The first time they dared to penetrate deep into the forest was in the 1800s.

And guess what happened when they did. Oyo is one of the first great kingdoms they hastened to visit.

They had only been hearing tells in England about the great Oyo king whose city is the capital of an empire.

There is a difference between hearing about a supposed empire and actually witnessing one. You deceptively left out the part that Hugh Clapperton said that what he saw on ground in Oyo was not as great as they were told in England. Hugh Clapperton simply met savages who in his own words were capable of killing themselves out of existence if drastic measures were not taken.

Hugh Clapperton and the Lander brothers never reported seeing Oyo empire under the Alaafin first hand, only that they heard about a supposed great kingdom which didn't matched what they witnessed on ground.

The Alaafin and Oyo the Europeans met in 1826 was a village that relied on Oba of Benin military powers. If you insist that it was an empire, then it was an empire that relied on Benin military strength.

Hugh Clapperton 1826 accounts.....

1. "In the evening we had a visit from the king (Alaafin of Oyo), to thank me for the presents I had given him, and again to assure me of being welcolme; said that he wanted nothing, unless it was something that would speedily cause the submission of the rebels. He said that he had sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him in the war."

- Hugh Clapperton, Journal of a Second Expedition Into the Interior of Africa, from the Bight of Benin to Soccatoo


2. "The kingdom of Benin was so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told a British governor that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its king." - Asibong Akpan Okon, The evolution of self-government of Nigeria (1955), p. 36

Asibong Okon was referring to this:

"This Kingdom of Benin was at one time so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told me that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its King." - United Empire, Volume 2 (1911), p. 620

https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=AE45AQAAMAAJ&dq=predecessors+pay+tribute


This is the Lagos under Benin the Europeans visited in 1603.

In 1603, Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer, a German surgeon, aboard a Dutch merchant ship, visited Lagos. According to his accounts, Lagos was a large frontier town surrounded by a strong fence and inhabited by "none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner."

The Lagos visited by Ulsheimer and his trading colleagues nearly four centuries ago was in many ways highly developed. Each day its four commanders came together as a court and each day two envoys were dispatched to take decisions back to their ruler in Benin. To do so, Ulsheimer wrote, was a common practice in all towns under the suzerainty of Benin…

--- "Josua Ulsheimer" cited in R. Smith, Kingdoms of the Yoruba (1969), p.74.

Lying through your teeth while pretending to be blind has never saved you from me. It never will.

samuk:
There is a difference between hearing about a supposed empire and actually witnessing one. You deceptively left out the part that Hugh Clapperton said that what he saw on ground in Oyo was not as great as they were told in England.

Errrm … Sorry little liar.

Capt. H. Clapperton did mention that they have been hearing about this greatness since back in England.

He added that they have now witnessed what they’ve been hearing firsthand. Below is the quote again:

“We first began inquiring after his health. I then told him that I was the king of England's servant, sent by his majesty to beg his acceptance of a present, which then lay before me; that we had heard his (the king of Youriba's) name mentioned in England as a great king; that we now experienced the truth of the report; that three white men, two of them my companions, and one a servant, had died on the road; that another of my companions was at Dahomey, to ask the king of that country to allow him a passage through his dominions.”

~Capt. Clapperton; “ Journal of a Second Expedition,” (1829), p. 38.

No, don’t blame me for your humiliation. You brought this upon yourself.

Hugh Clapperton simply met savages who in his own words were capable of killing themselves out of existence if drastic measures were not taken.

LMAO! No. Clapperton, et al.’s opinions of the people of the great Oyo empire is that they are just as civil as Europeans of the time are. Yup.

The reports also confirmed the general absence of the practice of human sacrifice at Oyo.

Of course unlike at your Benin kingdom where you all are sacrificed as votives to appease Yorùbá deities.

A European visitor to your Benin kingdom in as recent as the late-1800s/early-1900s had this to say:

“It is an interesting fact—and, I think, an important one—that the Kings of Benin, until Overami was dethroned, recognised the right of the ancient landowner and paid rent to the original Father of the Country, still known as Ogiami, in whose territory this founder of the Kingdom of Benin first settled. There can be no doubt, from my observation made in many villages that were nearly depopulated to feed the late King’s ambition for human sacrifice and war, that the intervention of a foreign power was necessary to save these interesting people from a barbarous form of despotism, on the one hand, or anarchy and self-extinction as a ruling people on the other.”

~ R. E. Dennett, Development of Native Governments in Southern Nigeria, 1911, p. 620.

@samuk
Hugh Clapperton and the Lander brothers never reported seeing Oyo empire under the Alaafin first hand, only that they heard about a supposed great kingdom which didn't matched what they witnessed on ground.

Of course they reported visiting the empire. They even spelt out the word e-m-p-i-r-e. Lol

See the quote below again for the umpteenth time:

“From that period a mallam has never ventured to enter the gates of Katunga, and the Mohammedan religion was soon forgotten by the people. They have, however, penetrated beyond the empire of Yariba, two Houssa holy men, having found their way to Jannah, the town in which Dr. Morrison, it is said, died and was buried, and three others to Badagry; …”

~Richard Lander, “Records of Captain Clapperton’s Last Expedition to Africa,” Vol. 1., (1830), pp. 279-280.

See the attached screenshot for another.

@samuk
The Alaafin and Oyo the Europeans met in 1826, was a village

Eerrm, sorry. Those who matter have spoken. I mean the eyewitnesses, i.e. Clapperton, et al.

And Oyo-Ile, from their reports, was that capital of an empire whose head was the Alaafin.

… that relied on Oba of Benin military powers. If you insist that it was an empire, then it was an empire that relied on Benin military strength.

No, the eyewitnesses (not me) insist that Oyo was an empire.

And we haven’t seen any eyewitness which says Benin is an empire.

And nah. It doesn’t work that way little boy.

In fact, what empires do is to exploit the army of their acquaintances (generally for a fee); or their provinces (generally freely) for its own campaigns — especially if such campaign is near the province; or if it will involve many casualties; etc.

So, my questions to you remain: (1) Could you please present a first hand report from an eyewitness which regards your Benin as an empire? — since we’ve seen exactly that in the case of Oyo.

(2) What exactly are you getting at about the fact that the the Alaafin sent to your Oba to send in some Bini slaves who should come and perish at the hands of a rebellious Oyo province??

Cheers!

@samuk

Hugh Clapperton 1826 accounts.....

1. "In the evening we had a visit from the king (Alaafin of Oyo), to thank me for the presents I had given him, and again to assure me of being welcolme; said that he wanted nothing, unless it was something that would speedily cause the submission of the rebels. He said that he had sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him in the war."

- Hugh Clapperton, Journal of a Second Expedition Into the Interior of Africa, from the Bight of Benin to Soccatoo

From the same first hand report we’ve seen who has an empire. Oyo was the one with an empire according to the eyewitnesses.

We haven’t seen even one single line of words from an eyewitness saying that Benin had an empire. None.

In the light of this background, it is clear that here we have a case of an empire (i.e. Oyo) exploiting the troops of an acquaintance (i.e. Benin) for its own campaign, of course at a fee — a decisive campaign against a large rebellious province of Oyo, namely: Ilorin.

That’s what empires do baby. And Oyo empire did the same thing with Bariba too for that campaign.

In conclusion, I still don’t understand your excitement about the fact that the Alaafin asked your Oba to send him some Bini slaves who must come and perish at the hands of a rebellious Oyo province??

@samuk

2. "The kingdom of Benin was so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told a British governor that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its king."

- Asibong Akpan Okon, The evolution of self-government of Nigeria (1955), p. 36.

First of all, Asibong Akpan Okon is mistaken about his assertion that a British Governor was responsible for collecting any such statement from the said Alaafin.

Asibong Okon was referring to this:

"This Kingdom of Benin was at one time so powerful that the Alafin of Oyo, the head of the Yoruba people, told me that even his predecessors had to pay tribute to its King."

- “United Empire,” Volume 2 (1911), p. 620.

https://books.google.com/books?newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&id=AE45AQAAMAAJ&dq=predecessors+pay+tribute

The “me” here (i.e. the English trader, R. E. Dennett) collected & published this statement in the 2nd volume of the “United Empire” as cited above.

The key-word used by R.E. Dennett in his report is the English word “tribute”.

Even a basic-level grasp of English makes it clear that the English word “tribute“ has two basic significances:

The Primary Significance (Meaning-1):
A payment made to express gratitude, etc.

The Secondary Significance (Meaning-2):
A payment made to acknowledge conquest, etc.

---

It is noteworthy that there is absolutely nothing in the vast corpus of Bini accounts which states (or suggests) that Benin at any point conquered Ọyọ — despite the apparent tendencies in Bini accounts to lay claims of conquest (although usually falsely) to far & near lands.

Similarly, there is absolutely nothing in the vast corpus of Ọyọ accounts which states (or suggests) that Ọyọ at any point in time was conquered by Benin — despite the clear admissions (in Ọyọ accounts) that early Ọyọ was conquered for a while by some Nupe groups, by some Bariba groups, and by the early Owu kingdom.

In the light of the foregoing, the secondary significance (meaning-2) of “tribute” is not applicable to Dennett’s statement above. Such interpretation has no footing whatsoever in Ọyọ or Bini historical accounts and realities.

Conversely, the primary significance (the “meaning-1) of the English term “tribute”, as is now to be expected, is actually that which is in line with the historical realities of Ọyọ-Benin relations as detailed below

---

R. E. Dennett collected this statement in ca.1911. The “tribute” payment relates apparently to pre-1911.

The relevant historical background which clarifies his significance of this term is hinted in the Journals of the Europeans who explored the interiors of Yoruba-land in the 1800s.

These explorers reached old Ọyọ and actually met the then Alaafin whose vast empire was at the time facing intense rebellion from at least one of its provinces.

In response to these internal troubles, the then Alaafin reached out to other provinces of his empire; his long standing allies; as well as newly emerging allies in order to nip this specific rebellion in the bud once and for all.

One of its allies which Ọyọ reached out to for this specific engagement in the 1800s was some Bariba groups. Another state which it reached out to, for the purpose of this engagement, is the Benin kingdom.

In relation to this outsourcing services, CPT Clapperton hinted in his 1820s Journal that the Alaafin said:

“he wanted nothing, unless it was something that would speedily cause the submission of the rebels. He said that he has sent to his friend the king of Benin for troops to assist him in the war. … In the evening I set off five rockets, which astonished all and frightened away many. The king was sitting under his verandah, and we waited on him to inquire how he liked the rockets; he was quite delighted, and said they should be kept for [the] war.”

Captain Clapperton & Richard Lander, “Journal of a Second Expedition Into the Interior of Africa,” (1829), p. 41.

In the light of this foregoing historical information (as well as in the light of the fact that any supposed Benin conquest of Ọyọ is an historical fallacy); the first significance (meaning-1) of the term “tribute” then is what is meant in Dennett’s statement.

In other words, the outsourcing services which the above quotation from Clapperton’s journal indicated wasn’t free of charge after all.

In sum, the English term “tribute” as used by Dennett in his c.1911 report is in the primary sense of the term as opposed to the secondary sense.


Cheers!

You’ve been disgraced on this one many, many times. It’s okay to give stuffs a return though.

@samuk

[s]This is the Lagos under Benin the Europeans visited in 1603.

In 1603, Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer, a German surgeon, aboard a Dutch merchant ship, visited Lagos. According to his accounts, Lagos was a large frontier town surrounded by a strong fence and inhabited by "none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner."

The Lagos visited by Ulsheimer and his trading colleagues nearly four centuries ago was in many ways highly developed. Each day its four commanders came together as a court and each day two envoys were dispatched to take decisions back to their ruler in Benin. To do so, Ulsheimer wrote, was a common practice in all towns under the suzerainty of Benin…

--- "Josua Ulsheimer" cited in R. Smith, Kingdoms of the Yoruba (1969), p.74.
[/s]

In an attempt to veil the context, you decided this time around to avoid the full passage of the report itself as observed by Andreas J. Ulsheimer himself in 1603-4.

The context of the actual passage shows that the area involved is not Lagos as a whole.

Lagos has its mainland and some islands. The context of the passage relates only to one of these islands.

The specific location involved from the context of the passage is simply a portion of one specific island.

The earlier Portuguese coinage ‘Lago’ is the name used by Ulsheimer to describe this specific portion.

And Ulsheimer added (in his report) that this portion of the island belongs to Benin kingdom.

The Binis (like some other non-native) had settled on this island some decades before Ulsheimer visited.

A number of trading groups from different ethnicities were drawn to this island to benefit from the growing European coastal trading activities along its coast.

How Benin came to own that piece of that island isn’t specified in his report — i.e. by aboriginal right, or by forceful takeover, or by conferment from the natives.

An analysis of Lagos accounts on the subject (which is earlier than the Benin accounts on the subject) in the light of this Ulsheimer’s report shows that the Benins settled there like other non-native groups — that is, by a peaceful infiltration subject to owners’ approval.

The analysis of the accounts in the light of the report shows, however, that after some decades of peaceful coexistence, the Bini residents were required to take up arms (especially against a second Bini camp/town which had just betrayed its Oba of Benin).

Sit back, relax, and enjoy the relevant passage as well as the clear, step-by-step examination of the nuance and salient points in the passage.

---

"Forty miles from Benin lies a large town called Lago, which also belongs to the King of Benin. It lies on an island and is a frontier town, surrounded by a strong fence. In it live none but soldiers and four military commanders, who behave in a very stately manner. Every day they come together in the king's house and make a sacrifice every morning. After the sacrifice, they hold court in the open air, in front of the king's house. Whoever has anything to complain about makes his complaint. They all fall on their knees when they present their case, and when one man is given a verdict in his favour, he thanks the authorities and the king. Also, two envoys always stand with the judge and listen to what is done. Every day these two send news off to the king, informing him of what the judges have done that day. They do this throughout the whole year. This is practiced not only in Lago, but also in other towns of the king, as well as in Benin itself. Many people come to the aforesaid town Lago, by water and by land, with their wares, which consist of beautiful cotton cloths woven in all kinds of colours and patterns.”
~ Andreas Ulsheimer's Voyage of 1603-4.
—————

(1) This report was written by A. J. Ulsheimer who was the surgeon for a trade voyage that visited the coast of west Africa between late-1603 and early-1604.


(2) His report doesn’t say a word about present-day Lagos as a whole.

Instead, his report relates only to one of the islands of present-day Lagos.

Nothing is said about the other islands, or the mainland, or elsewhere.

This fact is clear from the words: “It lies on an island”.

~ Refer to the passage for this line and its context.

(3) His report indicates that on this very island alone, there are more than one town.

And he named out one of these towns (on this very island) as “Lago”.

These facts are clear from the words: “Many people come to the aforesaid town Lago, by water and by land,”.

~ Refer to the passage for this line and its context.

Town Lago is a town located on an island. An island is surrounded by a water-body.

As such, whoever comes to that town “Lago” by water must have paddled (or swam) from some other town which is not on that same island.

However, whoever comes to that town “Lago” by land must have walked (or rode) from other town/s which are located on that same island.

His report clear says people also came to town “Lago” by land, this thus means that there are other town/s on that same island.

(4) Ulsheimer’s report notes that this specific town Lago belongs to Benin.

~ Refer to the passage for this line and its context.

Did Benin come to acquire their portion of that island by virtue of some aboriginal right, or by forceful take over, or by conferment from the native owners?

Considering each of these above means of ownership in turns:

(A) Whether or not Benins’ ownership of their portion of that island resulted from some aboriginal right is silent from Ulsheimer’s report. However, both Lagos and Benin traditions admit that this island (and beyond) is the aboriginal property of the Aworis.

As such, their later ownership of their portion of the island was clearly not as a result of some aboriginal right. They’re not the aboriginals of that specific area.

(B) Did Benin’s ownership of its portion of that island result from a forceful take-over?

Firstly, it must stressed that as at the time of his visit to the coast of West Africa (sometimes between late 1603 & early1604), Ulsheimer found that the Benins were already settled on the island — specifically in their portion of the island, i.e., in town “Lago”.

In other words, he did not witness how their predecessors originally came from Benin to settle on that island in the mid/late-1500s.

In fact, as at the time of his visit, the Benins had long built their portion of that island into a strong-walled town which also has a working, year in, year out internal political/religious system.

Ulsheimer therefore could not possibly have given an eyewitness account of how those Binis’ predecessors settled into that island originally in the 1500s.

Although he met them there living as an armed unit in 1603-4; this living condition of the year 1603-4 does not provide any useful information as to how their predecessors originally settled in there in the 1500s.

It is very likely that their living condition of 1603-4, was in response to a relatively new development which requires nothing but a military response.

Is there any corroboration, from Ulsheimer’s report, for this being the case?? The answer to this question is a big, fat YES!

On page 24 of the same material, Ulsheimer alludes to another Benin-settled town (different from Lago).

The location of this second town is unspecified except that it appears (from Ulsheimer’s report) that it also lie somewhere near the Atlantic coast, but closer to Lagos region than to Benin region.

The report continues to say that the subjects there (unlike those at town Lago) had rebelled against their oba — their Benin king.

As a result, the subjects at the town Lago were tasked with the duty of returning them back to status quo.

This report continues to show that those subjects at Lago (acting on behalf of their oba) asked Ulsheimer’s team for assistance when his trading team arrived at the Lagos region.

They approached his team for help because they had not been able to conquer the said Benin-settled rebel town prior to his (and his team’s) arrival.

The Binis of Lago had particularly found it difficult to conquer this second town because it is also a walled town like town Lago, and the Binis of town Lago have no canons.

In any case, it is impossible to know how precisely the predecessors settled there in the 1500s based on the living formation of the successors of c.1603.

As has just been recalled from page 24 however, the only event specified in the text as a plausible reason for their successors’ military-life formation in c.1603 is the task that they must return a certain Benin town (which had recently rebelled) back to status quo.

This foregoing indication from Ulsheimer’s report is in clear and almost shocking agreement with Lagos traditions which was first recorded about 200 years later.

Lagos traditions maintain that that the Binis settled in the island peacefully & amicably after having gotten permission to land from the native owners.

The Lagos accounts continue that that it was not until some time long after they had settled peacefully that they now began to be involved in some skirmishes.

The following is a quotation of the Lagos accounts as may be seen in the publication of a British officer:

“Some little time after the Olofin's death there began the peaceful penetration into Lagos of settlers from Benin. The Binis probably realised that they would not be able to occupy Lagos by force, as they had already been so decisively beaten in their attacks on Iddo, and it is thought that they were also prevented from further aggression by superstitious fear, the dying wife of the Olofin having pronounced a terrible curse on any further invaders from Benin. Whatever may have been the reason, the Binis arrived with no great show of force, and permission was asked of the Lagos people for them to land. This permission was granted, probably with no very good grace, although at that time Lagos island was very sparsely inhabited and there must have been room for many more settlers. … Some time after, the Binis began to attack the people on the mainland, and the leader of one of their marauding parties dying at Isheri, his remains were conveyed to Benin by one of the Isheri chiefs named Ashipa, who was anxious to secure the favour of the powerful King of Benin. ”

~ Sir Alan C. Burns, “History of Nigeria,” 1929, p.43.

SUMMARY
The Benin’s ownership relates (not to the island as a whole, but) to a portion of it which was conferred to it by the native owners themselves.

This is what is meant when Ulsheimer’s account says that the town Lago (a portion of today’s Lagos-island) “belongs to” Benin — that is, they own[ed] what was conferred on them.

APPENDIX
These events of 1603-4 cited from Ulsheimer actually took place about eighty (80) years before the present Èkó dynasty was founded by Ashipa (the Awori noble from Isheri) the father of Ado.

Peace!

Summary for the benefit of those that didn't have the patience to read TAO11 and TAO12 long epistles.

1. We both agreed that 1826 was the first time the Europeans visited Oyo and the first time the Alaafin of Oyo and his people saw the white man.

2. We both agreed that when the Europeans visited Oyo in 1826, they met an Alaafin who was facing rebellion that his weak army couldn't defeat.

3. We both agreed that the Alaafin that the Europeans met in 1826 requested for troops from the Oba of Benin to assist him and his weak army.

4. We both agreed that as of 1603, the Oba of Benin was the owner of a large frontier town called Lago (Lagos) which was populated by soldiers and their commanders who send reports back to Benin daily.

Point of Disagreement:

I argued that what the Europeans met on ground in 1826 in Oyo wasn't an empire and at best a very weak kingdom.

TAO11 argued it was an empire because the Europeans recorded being told so by someone else, not that they witnessed it themselves. What the Europeans witnessed was a weak kingdom whose Alaafin had sent for troops from Benin.

In conclusion and without conceding, if TAO11 insist that Oyo had an empire in 1826 that was witnessed by the Europeans, this Oyo empire was very weak that it relied on Benin military strength.

I believe all will agree that this is a very fair assessment of the debate so far.

samuk:
Summary for the benefit of those that didn't have the patience to read TAO11 and TAO12 long epistles.

The thorough replies is because you are too stupid to be ignored.

I had to thoroughly debunk you as I am doing so that your brain actually gets the reset.

1. We both agreed that 1826 was the first time the Europeans visited Oyo and the first time the Alaafin of Oyo and his people saw the white man.

I’m not sure what point you’re making here??

Are you saying that some Europeans ventured into the deep interior of the forest region of west/cent. Africa in the 1700s, 1600s, 1500s, and 1400s?? Yes or No.

Be bold enough to answer this question. Also provide the relevant evidence to back up your answer.

Until you answer this question, you make absolutely zero sense here — as always of course.

Moreover, Oyo governors stationed in the Dahomey region (in charge of the region) have been met by the Europeans for centuries. And this isn’t even my point.

---

The fact remains that Oyo was deep in the interior of west-Africa — even beyond the forest region.

See attached map for “coast” — where the Europeans’ ships berth on arrival from Europe.

See same map also for “•” — the point where Oyo-Ile (i.e. Old Oyo) was located.

It wasn’t until in the 1800s that these Europeans were willing to take the risk of going deep into the forest of west and central Africa. And Oyo was one of the great kingdoms of the deep interior which they hastened to visit as soon as they could take the risk.

2. We both agreed that when the Europeans visited Oyo in 1826, they met an Alaafin who was facing rebellion that his weak army couldn't defeat.

Actually, they noted in their report that what they met was an “EMPIRE” which they’ve been hearing about in England, and that what they’ve been hearing is the truth based on what they’ve now seen.

The following are the Europeans’ own actual words as documented from their own observation:

(A) “We first began inquiring after his health. I then told him that I was the king of England's servant, sent by his majesty to beg his acceptance of a present, which then lay before me; that we had heard his (the king of Youriba's) name mentioned in England as a great king; that we now experienced the truth of the report; that three white men, two of them my companions, and one a servant, had died on the road; that another of my companions was at Dahomey, to ask the king of that country to allow him a passage through his dominions.”

~Cap. H. Clapperton; “Journal of a Second Expedition,” (1829), p. 38.


(B) “From that period a mallam has never ventured to enter the gates of Katunga, and the Mohammedan religion was soon forgotten by the people. They have, however, penetrated beyond the empire of Yariba, two Houssa holy men, having found their way to Jannah, the town in which Dr. Morrison, it is said, died and was buried, and three others to Badagry; …”

~Richard Lander, “Records of Captain Clapperton’s Last Expedition to Africa,” Vol. 1., (1830), pp. 279-280.


(C) See that second attached screenshot for another example of the Europeans’ testimonies of the empire they witnessed.
————

As per rebellion, you don’t seem to realize how that is an evidence to prove that what we’re discussing here is an empire just as the eyewitnesses have also said.

Only an empire has diverse dependencies all over the place . The rebellion you yap about implies that one of the dependencies tries to gain independence from the grip of the sovereign.

3. We both agreed that the Alaafin that the Europeans met in 1826 requested from troops from the Oba of Benin to assist him and his weak army.

Weak army?? Lol. That is not mentioned anywhere by the eyewitnesses. What they mentioned instead is:

“The Yaribeans have the reputation of being the best bowmen in Africa; and the young men soon become excellent marksmen by frequent practice and steady perseverance, which latter is a virtue that falls to the lot of but few nations in the central parts. They amuse themselves daily by attempting to discharge arrows through a small hole made for the purpose in a wall, at a great distance from the standing ground, and I have frequently seen individuals accomplish this difficult task three successive times, when upwards of a hundred yards from the spot; but it requires great and unceasing practice to attain to so much perfection in the art.”

Richard Lander; Records of Captain Clapperton’s Last Expedition to Africa, Vol. 2., (1830), p. 222.
————
In the light of this background, it becomes clear that the outsourcing from Borgu/Benin kingdoms simply points to the same thing that empires do—exploiting the troops of its acquaintances/provinces for its own campaigns.

4. We both agreed that as of 1603, the Oba of Benin was the owner of a large frontier town called Lago (Lagos) which was populated by soldiers.

Except that different non-Yorùbá kingdoms had their own frontier towns too on that same island in Lagos.

And they do whatever they please within the confines of their respective spaces; play, trade, worship, fight.

The difference however is that today the other groups don’t go about pretending like their ancestors took the space by force against the wish of the native owners.

Lagos traditions in the light of Ulsheimer’s report say that Binis and others settled peacefully after the native owners have granted them permission to land.

Lagos traditions in the light of Ulsheimer’s report also show that the Binis (after coexisting peacefully on the island for decades) later got involved in skirmishes, especially against their own Bini people.

Point of Disagreement:
I argued that what the Europeans met on in 1826 I n Oyo wasn't an empire and at best a very weak kingdom.

This is already debunked in this same comment. The eyewitnesses noted that what they saw is an “empire”.

You don’t matter. The eyewitnesses matter.

TAO11 argued it was an empire because the Europeans recorded being told so by someone else, not that they weakness it themselves.

No, I didn’t argue it was an empire; instead those who visited reported what they observed to be an “empire”.

Lol. So Clapperton, et al. didn’t visit Oyo? They stayed back at the coast (or elsewhere) and simply relied on 2nd hand accounts of some Oyo natives without they themselves going to Oyo to see things themselves?? Is this what I’m now hearing from you? LMAO.

You have to stop willful self-inflicted delusions. Capt. Clapperton did visit Oyo. He witnessed & reported his experiences. He noted that the greatness they heard back in England is truthful, as they’ve now observed it by themselves.

They’d travelled through the empire from Badagry all the way to the capital, Oyo-Ile; and they reported that what they experienced and continue to experience is an “empire”. Yup.

It’s beginning to sound like you’re jealous in addition to being deluded. Is this because there is no first hand report of the use of the word “empire” for your Benin??

In conclusion and without conceding, if TAO11 insist that Oyo had an empire in 1826 that was witnessed by the Europeans, this Oyo empire was very weak that it relied on Benin military strength.

How is this about me? It’s basic common sense.

Those who visited said they saw an empire, who am I to say they didn’t? Only you argue deludedly against the real world. See a therapist.

Your drama of ReLiEd oN BeNiN MiLiTaRy sTreNgHt is simply a downright silly.

If you know anything about empires, you should by now be aware that that’s what empires do. They put other smaller places (acquaintance or dependency) to their own personal use.

Cheers.

Christistruth00:




Tao11 don’t mind Samuk

The Alaafin Clapperton met had 400 wives alone
not including his Chiefs , Slaves, Children , Servants , Palace Officials and the Slaves,wives , Soldiers , Officials and Children of his High Chiefs and other Royal Princes with their individual Compounds families and Slaves

Does that alone sound like a village?

We have not yet included the People of Oyo and all of the Country of Dahomey ( Benin Repubic today ) that he ruled over
We have not included Atakpame and Aledjo areas of Togo o !

The Alaafin Of Oyo ruled over more Territory and People than the Oba of Benin
The Alaafins Territory reached the Ewe and Ga of Ghana


Every time the Army Of Oyo marched out to War the Equvalent of a Town followed them to the War Camp

I know TAO11 sometimes needs this kind of moral support, but right now your intervention is a distraction.

You are distracting her from the onerous mission of trying to save and savage what's left of the paperweight, 1826 history and fairytales of the Yoruba nation from the fineness, wit, the lion claws and the eagle eyes of the ever sagacious Samuk.

The so called Oyo empire which the history of the yoruba nation rest upon is on the line and this poor girl, TAO11 put herself forward to try and contain the damage with very little material to work with considering that Oyo European eyewitness accounts began in 1826.

The worst part is that this European 1826 eyewitness account began with the so called Oyo empire and it's king the Alaafin begging the Oba of Benin to send him troops to help put an end to his rebellious yoruba subjects. Not a very good way for European eyewitness account to begin after waiting for nearly 400 years to catch up with Benin.

Same European eyewitness accounts began in Benin nearly 400 years earlier and to add insult to injury, Benin had already sent an ambassador to Europe 200 years before Oyo and the Alaafin saw the white man for the first time in 1826 and over 200 years after the Oba of Benin annexed and owned a large frontier town called Lagos.

I know some of you her supporters and kinsmen are feeling the pains of her beating, but be assured, I won't beat her too much this time, because I wouldn't want her to go into metal and psychological meltdown, because we very much need her around here to continue to entertain us with her lies and offer herself as a punchbag for those willing to treat her lies.

No matter what TAO11 submit, the fact that Oyo European eyewitness historical accounts began in 1826 will continue to stick out like a sore thumb and an albatross that can't be surmounted.

samuk:


I know TAO11 sometimes needs this kind of moral support, but right now your intervention is a distraction.

You are distracting her from the onerous mission of trying to save and savage what's left of the paperweight, 1826 history and fairytales of the Yoruba nation from the fineness, wit, the lion claws and the eagle eyes of the ever sagacious Samuk.

The so called Oyo empire which the history of the yoruba nation rest upon is on the line and this poor girl, TAO11 put herself forward to try and contain the damage with very little material to work with considering that Oyo European eyewitness accounts began in 1826.

The worst part is that this European 1826 eyewitness account began with the so called Oyo empire and it's king the Alaafin begging the Oba of Benin to send him troops to help put an end to his rebellious yoruba subjects. Not a very good way for European eyewitness account to begin after waiting for nearly 400 years to catch up with Benin.

Same European eyewitness accounts began in Benin nearly 400 years earlier and to add insult to injury, Benin had already sent an ambassador to Europe 200 years before Oyo and the Alaafin saw the white man for the first time in 1826 and over 200 years after the Oba of Benin annexed and owned a large frontier town called Lagos.

I know some of you her supporters and kinsmen are feeling the pains of her beating, but be assured, I won't beat her too much this time, because I wouldn't want her to go into metal and psychological meltdown, because we very much need her around here to continue to entertain us with her lies and offer herself as a punchbag for those willing to treat her lies.

No matter what TAO11 submit, the fact that Oyo European eyewitness historical accounts began in 1826 will continue to stick out like a sore thumb and an albatross that can't be surmounted.

Read Slowly

sir alfred moloney
British Colonial Governor of Lagos
1890

samuk:
[s]I know TAO11 sometimes needs this kind of moral support, but right now your intervention is a distraction.

You are distracting her from the onerous mission of trying to save and savage what's left of the paperweight, 1826 history and fairytales of the Yoruba nation from the fineness, wit, the lion claws and the eagle eyes of the ever sagacious Samuk.

The so called Oyo empire which the history of the yoruba nation rest upon is on the line and this poor girl, TAO11 put herself forward to try and contain the damage with very little material to work with considering that Oyo European eyewitness accounts began in 1826.

The worst part is that this European 1826 eyewitness account began with the so called Oyo empire and it's king the Alaafin begging the Oba of Benin to send him troops to help put an end to his rebellious yoruba subjects. Not a very good way for European eyewitness account to begin after waiting for nearly 400 years to catch up with Benin.

Same European eyewitness accounts began in Benin nearly 400 years earlier and to add insult to injury, Benin had already sent an ambassador to Europe 200 years before Oyo and the Alaafin saw the white man for the first time in 1826 and over 200 years after the Oba of Benin annexed and owned a large frontier town called Lagos.

I know some of you her supporters and kinsmen are feeling the pains of her beating, but be assured, I won't beat her too much this time, because I wouldn't want her to go into metal and psychological meltdown, because we very much need her around here to continue to entertain us with her lies and offer herself as a punchbag for those willing to treat her lies.

No matter what TAO11 submit, the fact that Oyo European eyewitness historical accounts began in 1826 will continue to stick out like a sore thumb and an albatross that can't be surmounted.[/s]

We have seen eyewitness report which mentions in clear unequivocal terms that not only was Oyo great, that it was indeed an empire. And the words was spelt out.

Can you now show the whole world where Benin was named as an “empire” by a first hand report of some eyewitness observer?

Yes let’s also see the word “e-m-p-i-re” spelt out. This shouldn’t be difficult naw. Or is it?

Cheers.

The River Niger represents one of the longest reigning commercial hubs anywhere in the world. It would probably take close to another million years for any other commercial highway to catch up. i.e the Nile and the kind that flows into the Kush Sea.

TAO11:
We have seen eyewitness report which mentions in clear unequivocal terms that not only was Oyo great, that it was indeed an empire. And the words was spelt out.

Can you now show the whole world where Benin was named as an “empire” by a first hand report of some eyewitness observer?

Yes let’s also see the word “e-m-p-i-re” spelt out. This shouldn’t be difficult naw. Or is it?

Cheers.

Benin greatness is self evidence and world acclaimed. The very fact that the Alaafin of Oyo relied on Benin troops is enough evidence of Benin superiority.

America will not sent to Nigeria for troops to help with their internal crisis, it's Nigeria that will always seek military assistance from America. This is how empire works.

LMAO!

samuk:
Benin greatness is self evidence and world acclaimed.

What did I just read? This sounds like the greatest joke anyone has ever cracked to me. Lol.

First of all, the criterion is not changing. You too must provide a first hand report from an eyewitnesses who spelt out the word “empire” to describe your Benin.

We have seen such reports for Oyo, let’s see the Benin version— where it was termed “empire” by observers.

---

BTW, “self evidence” sounds to me as calling yourself an “empire”. And that’s an evidence that you’re indeed one?? I’m dead.

And “world acclaimed” sounds like certain people who didn’t see it calls it an “empire”. LMAO!

To add a thing to this “world-acclaimed” part: Almost all the ‘reputable’ (non-firsthand) sources on the topic do not consider precolonial Benin to be an “empire”:

(A) The University of Iowa: https://africa.uima.uiowa.edu/peoples/show/Benin+Kingdom

(B) Encyclopaedia Britannica: https://www.britannica.com/place/Benin-historical-kingdom-West-Africa

(C), National Geographic: https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/kingdom-benin/

(D) Khan Academy: https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/art-africa/west-africa/nigeria/a/the-kingdom-of-benin

Do a quick ‘Google Search’ of “Benin Empire” to see it for yourself. Notice how the reputable results simply regards precolonial Benin as a Kingdom.

Try a similar search for “Oyo Empire” and observe the sharp contrast — from those same reputable results and perhaps more still.

It is not surprising that this is the case since there are no firsthand/eyewitness report which regards Benin to be an empire. And we’ve seen exactly that for Oyo.

The very fact that the Alaafin of Oyo relied on Benin troops is enough evidence of Benin superiority

Lol. So, you mean that Hausaland was superior to the British Empire when it “relied on” Hausa troops for its punishment meted out to your Benin kingdom?

This is not a circus show, samuk. You have to stop the clowning. Wake up and smell the coffee. Wake up into the real world. Kiss reality.

America will not sent to Nigeria for troops to help with their internal crisis, it's Nigeria that will always seek military assistance from America. This is how empire works.

Your comment here is a typical example of the fallacy called “false analogy”.

Argument from analogy is invalid when it is presented in such a way that the properties present in one case are not found (or are suppressed) in the second case.

The case 1 here is old-Oyo; and its relevant property is that it is the capital of an empire — per eyewitnesses.

The case 2 (you introduced here) is America; and it is, strictly speaking, not the capital of an empire.

What you could have done was to have cited an actual historical empire. You see the “inconsistency”.

Even if you’ll insist on citing America, you could have been more consistent by first presenting it as though it’s the head of an empire — with provinces/interests in some parts of the world today.

By so doing, it contains parallel with the actual case it was cited for — that is, the old-Oyo case — after which you may then proceed to analyze.

With the stage now properly set for analysis, it should have become clear to you now why America may send to Nigeria, et al. for backup if there is any need for the U.S. to address rebellion/conflict in places which are provincial/of interest to America (say: S-Korea) on the grounds that America and Nigeria, et al. have friendly relations with each other.

This is how to argue from analogy. Notice the parallel in the two cases was clear before examining what the conclusion is. And as it’s obvious the conclusion shows clearly that you’re wrong again.

Cheers!

TAO11:
You modified your penultimate comment to include more falsehood. I dey here for you.

To humiliate you has always been my business. You won’t stop lying, and I won’t stop humiliating you.


Yes Clapperton, et al. did, and that was after they had stayed at Oyo-Ile, met its king whom they confirmed to be indeed great, and whose territory they regarded as an “empire”.

Eeerm, sorry.

Capt. Hugh Clapperton begs to differ with you. You’re irredeemably pathetic for lying against him.

Here is Clapperton’s actual words confirming the king to be indeed great, and following that too is Lander’s confirming that his dominion is an “empire”:

“We first began inquiring after his health. I then told him that I was the king of England's servant, sent by his majesty to beg his acceptance of a present, which then lay before me; that we had heard his (the king of Youriba's) name mentioned in England as a great king; that we now experienced the truth of the report; that three white men, two of them my companions, and one a servant, had died on the road; that another of my companions was at Dahomey, to ask the king of that country to allow him a passage through his dominions.”

~Capt. Clapperton; “ Journal of a Second Expedition,” (1829), p. 38.

“From that period a mallam has never ventured to enter the gates of Katunga, and the Mohammedan religion was soon forgotten by the people. They have, however, penetrated beyond the empire of Yariba, two Houssa holy men, having found their way to Jannah, the town in which Dr. Morrison, it is said, died and was buried, and three others to Badagry; …”

~Richard Lander, “Records of Captain Clapperton’s Last Expedition to Africa,” Vol. 1., (1830), pp. 279-280.

Duh!

So, we have already seen a EUrOpEaN eyewitness who spelt it out that Oyo attained “empire” status.

Could you now show us a EUrOpEaN eyewitness who said Benin attained “empire” status? Lmao.

Yes, we need to see the word “empire” in the original first hand report. Go on.
————

Anyway, the rebellion wasn’t from neighbors nor was it from “small villages”. Such words aren’t found in the writings of Clapperton. They’re only found in your wild imagination.

And what point exactly are you getting at with the fact that the the Alaafin sent to your Oba to send in some Bini slaves who should come and die at the hands of a rebellious Oyo province??

No, sorry.

No European sailed the Niger River from its source to termination in the 1700s. Lol.

Provide some evidence if you’d insist otherwise. That shouldn’t be difficult. Or should it?

The first time ever that Europeans sailed the River from its source to its termination was in the 1800s.

No, sorry.

They did visit and stayed at Oyo-Ile. Yes they noted it it to be the capital of the “empire”.

See quotes from the eyewitness accounts again.

Garrison and Barracks kọ; Garri and Barack Obama ni?

This boy is a clown. You’ve been shut down on this lie many times. You’re only re-trying — perhaps you may successfully hoodwink a Bini dullard. You’re too sure of your people’s stupidity.

Again, the Europeans’ visit was in the late-1603/early-1604. Of course the report doesn’t mention “garrison” or “barracks” on Lagos island. Lol.

The most it indicates is that Bini immigrants settled in one part of the island. The same report also indicated that some other groups also stayed on other parts of that very same island of Lagos.

The settlement where those Binis stayed was called a “town” in that report, not garrison nor barrack.

However, the report mentioned that the Bini residents who settled in the “town” on the island were required (at some point in the course of their stay) by their Ọba to attack another Bini camp/settlement/town.

This second Bini town [located west of the Lagos area and also near the coast] is said, in the report, to have betrayed their Ọba, and as such should be brought to justice by the Bini group camped on Lagos island.

The Bini group on Lagos island have tried long & hard to attack and conquer this second location only to fail until they were assisted by some visiting traders who had canons that brought down their walls.

For details (and a sweet reminder of how you’ve been humiliated on this last year) refer to the link below:

https://www.nairaland.com/6482972/name-lagos-called-ekonunuame-benins/10#104477483

Lmao.

You’re still fighting your inner demons on this. Says a lot about how broken I left you & your minions.

First of all, let’s even assume that a Benin dynasty did indeed rule at Idah. If anything, shouldn’t that tell you already that the Ogané of the Portuguese text to whom your Benin Ọbas are subordinate cannot possibly be his Idah descendant? Do you have a brain?

The Ogané of the Portuguese text to whom the Benin Ọbas are subordinate is none but the Ọɣọni of Ifẹ. See attachment below for a summary of the consensus of historical scholarship on this today.

Screenshot Reference: Adam Knobler; “Mythology and Diplomacy in the Age of Exploration,” Brill, 2016, p. 47.

Eeerm … Sorry, no.

A Bini immigrant trading community settled in a part of the island — just as many other immigrant groups who also did around the same period. That’s the case.

No, the only place your Ọba ruled was Benin city and of course its surrounding Edoid villages. Shikena.


You’re probably reading the comments while you are blindfolded. Lol.

Otherwise, you should have already seen the words of those who stayed at Oyo-Ile, and who clearly regarded what they saw as the capital of an “empire”.

Abi you’re managing some kind of selective seeing disorder ni? Lol

Cheers.

This beating is too much, madam take it easy o. This is pure sexism

Of Lagos account even Lagos king know Benin rule it in ancient time

from Iga Idugaran, Palace of the Lagos King, Oba Akiolu was quoted as saying: “I was told by my late paternal grandmother, who was a descendant of Oba Ovonranwen Nogbaisi, and with facts from historical books, let me share this knowledge with you all on Eko or Lagos, as it is popularly called.

“Modern day Lagos was founded by Prince Ado, the son of the Oba of Benin. Prince Ado was the first Oba of Lagos, and he it was that named the town Eko, until the Portuguese explorer, Ruy de Segueira, changed the maritime town to Lagos, which at that time from 1942 was Portuguese expedition centre down the African Coast.

“It was a major centre of slave trade, until 1851. Lagos was annexed by Britain via the Lagos treaty of cession in 1861, ending the consular period and starting the British colonial period. The remainder of modern day Nigeria was seized in 1886, when the Colony and Protectorate of Nigeria was established in 1914, Lagos was declared its capital, due to the struggle of the Bini King.

“Lagos experienced growth prior to the British Colonial rule, but even more rapid growth during the colonial rule throughout the 90s till date. Thanks to the Aworis, Binis, Yorubas and migrants across the nation and the world at large, as no particular group of people can take the glory alone.

“Lagos is made up of lagoons and creeks. These are the Lagos Lagoon, Lagos Harbour, Five cowrie creeks, New Canal, Badagry creeks, Kuramo waters and Lighthouse Creeks.

“The Aworis and Binis are known to be the first settlers of the Eko land. The Aworis are speakers of a distinct dialect close to that of Yoruba language with a rich Bini mixture. Traditionally, Aworis were found in Ile-ife; they were known to be the Binis, who followed their self-exiled prince, the first son of the Ogiso (now called Oba) of Benin Kingdom, whose stepmother was after his head.

“The exiled Benin Prince Izoduwa, known to Yoruba as Ooduwa (Oduduwa), was made ruler of the Ife people due to his powers and followers from the great Benin Kingdom.

“Izoduwa (Ooduwa) was made the first king of Ile-Ife in 1230 AD. His followers from his father’s Kingdom in Benin are today’s Awori people, who settled in Eko now called Lagos.

“In the 1300s, the King of Benin Empire heard from one of his traders, who were settlers in Eko, of how the Binis were treated by the Aworis who lived in their areas. Upon hearing this, the King of Benin commanded the assembly of a war expedition, led by his son, Prince Ado, which headed (for) the settlement of the Aworis and demanded explanation.

“On arriving Eko, Prince Ado and his army were more than welcomed. The Aworis asked the Bini Prince to stay and become their leader. Ado agreed on the condition that they surrender their sovereignty to the Oba of Benin, to which the people agreed. On hearing this, the King of Benin gave his permission for Prince Ado and the expedition to remain in Eko.

“The Oba of Benin sent some of his chiefs, including the Eletu, Odibo, Obanikoro and others to assist his son, Oba Ado in the running of Eko.

“From the crowning of Prince Ado, as the first Oba of Lagos, (then called Eko), Lagos served as a major centre for slave trade. The Aworis, the Oba of Benin and his son, the Oba of Lagos and all the children/descendants, who took over as his successors for over four centuries supported the trade.

“The Oba of Benin was the head of the Benin Empire, which are presently the modern day western, southern and eastern Nigeria. The king never forced anyone to speak the Bini language, as he believed everyone was entitled to their own choice of language.

“The name Eko was given to it first, by the king of Lagos, Oba Ado, the young and vibrant prince from Benin. Eko was the land now known as Lagos Island, where the king’s palace was built.

“The palace is called Idugaran, which means “palace built on pepper farm.” Oba Ado and the warriors from Benin, together with the early Bini settlers in Eko and the Awori people settled in the southern part of Eko, called “Isale Eko.” “Isale literally means downtown (as in down town Lagos).

“Until the coming in of the Benin in 1300 AD, Lagos’ geographical boundary was Lagos mainland. Lagos Island, the seat of the Oba of Lagos, then consisted of a pepper farm and fishing post. No one was living there.

“About 1450 AD, some Yorubas, who hailed from Isheri in Ogun State and Ekiti were allowed by the King to settle in Eko during a war. They came in very large numbers, thereby surpassing the numbers of the Aworis and Binis. Hence the Yorubas’ claim to own Eko, due to their numbers.

“Oba Ado fell in love with a beautiful woman, whose father was Awori and the mother, a daughter to one of the chiefs. They had two sons and a daughter, Erelu Kuti, who begot Ologun Kutere, who later became king.”

As you said the kings are Yoruba you mean this old man king of Lagos do not know his root and you know his root more than him

Jameseddi1:
[s]Of Lagos account even Lagos king know Benin rule it in ancient time[/s]

Oh really? /s

Dream on though.

BTW, no “Lagos” King (Eleko) said that at anytime.

✌

Jameseddi1:
[s]from Iga Idugaran, Palace of the Lagos King, Oba Akiolu was quoted as saying: “I was told by my late paternal grandmother, who was a descendant of Oba Ovonranwen Nogbaisi, and with facts from historical books, let me share this knowledge with you all on Eko or Lagos, as it is popularly called.

“Modern day Lagos was founded by Prince Ado, the son of the Oba of Benin. Prince Ado was the first Oba of Lagos, and he it was that named the town Eko, until the Portuguese explorer, Ruy de Segueira, changed the maritime town to Lagos, which at that time from 1942 was Portuguese expedition centre down the African Coast.

“It was a major centre of slave trade, until 1851. Lagos was annexed by Britain via the Lagos treaty of cession in 1861, ending the consular period and starting the British colonial period. The remainder of modern day Nigeria was seized in 1886, when the Colony and Protectorate of Nigeria was established in 1914, Lagos was declared its capital, due to the struggle of the Bini King.

“Lagos experienced growth prior to the British Colonial rule, but even more rapid growth during the colonial rule throughout the 90s till date. Thanks to the Aworis, Binis, Yorubas and migrants across the nation and the world at large, as no particular group of people can take the glory alone.

“Lagos is made up of lagoons and creeks. These are the Lagos Lagoon, Lagos Harbour, Five cowrie creeks, New Canal, Badagry creeks, Kuramo waters and Lighthouse Creeks.

“The Aworis and Binis are known to be the first settlers of the Eko land. The Aworis are speakers of a distinct dialect close to that of Yoruba language with a rich Bini mixture. Traditionally, Aworis were found in Ile-ife; they were known to be the Binis, who followed their self-exiled prince, the first son of the Ogiso (now called Oba) of Benin Kingdom, whose stepmother was after his head.

“The exiled Benin Prince Izoduwa, known to Yoruba as Ooduwa (Oduduwa), was made ruler of the Ife people due to his powers and followers from the great Benin Kingdom.

“Izoduwa (Ooduwa) was made the first king of Ile-Ife in 1230 AD. His followers from his father’s Kingdom in Benin are today’s Awori people, who settled in Eko now called Lagos.

“In the 1300s, the King of Benin Empire heard from one of his traders, who were settlers in Eko, of how the Binis were treated by the Aworis who lived in their areas. Upon hearing this, the King of Benin commanded the assembly of a war expedition, led by his son, Prince Ado, which headed (for) the settlement of the Aworis and demanded explanation.

“On arriving Eko, Prince Ado and his army were more than welcomed. The Aworis asked the Bini Prince to stay and become their leader. Ado agreed on the condition that they surrender their sovereignty to the Oba of Benin, to which the people agreed. On hearing this, the King of Benin gave his permission for Prince Ado and the expedition to remain in Eko.

“The Oba of Benin sent some of his chiefs, including the Eletu, Odibo, Obanikoro and others to assist his son, Oba Ado in the running of Eko.

“From the crowning of Prince Ado, as the first Oba of Lagos, (then called Eko), Lagos served as a major centre for slave trade. The Aworis, the Oba of Benin and his son, the Oba of Lagos and all the children/descendants, who took over as his successors for over four centuries supported the trade.

“The Oba of Benin was the head of the Benin Empire, which are presently the modern day western, southern and eastern Nigeria. The king never forced anyone to speak the Bini language, as he believed everyone was entitled to their own choice of language.

“The name Eko was given to it first, by the king of Lagos, Oba Ado, the young and vibrant prince from Benin. Eko was the land now known as Lagos Island, where the king’s palace was built.

“The palace is called Idugaran, which means “palace built on pepper farm.” Oba Ado and the warriors from Benin, together with the early Bini settlers in Eko and the Awori people settled in the southern part of Eko, called “Isale Eko.” “Isale literally means downtown (as in down town Lagos).

“Until the coming in of the Benin in 1300 AD, Lagos’ geographical boundary was Lagos mainland. Lagos Island, the seat of the Oba of Lagos, then consisted of a pepper farm and fishing post. No one was living there.

“About 1450 AD, some Yorubas, who hailed from Isheri in Ogun State and Ekiti were allowed by the King to settle in Eko during a war. They came in very large numbers, thereby surpassing the numbers of the Aworis and Binis. Hence the Yorubas’ claim to own Eko, due to their numbers.

“Oba Ado fell in love with a beautiful woman, whose father was Awori and the mother, a daughter to one of the chiefs. They had two sons and a daughter, Erelu Kuti, who begot Ologun Kutere, who later became king.”

As you said the kings are Yoruba you mean this old man king of Lagos do not know his root and you know his root more than him[/s]

This self-refuting write-up has long been exposed as yet another Bini fraud.

It’s a Benin episode of “things that never happened” as invented by another Bini mythomaniac who goes by the name Gabriel Omohinmin.

His father’s name quickly gave him away and exposed him and his write-up for the lie that they are.

The link below goes to his column on TheGuardian in case anyone wishes to verify his name for themselves:

https://guardian.ng/sunday-magazine/lagos-oba-traces-origin-to-benin/

The screenshot attached below also shows the same information. He is another Bini loser/schizophrenic:

---

In any case, Ọba Akiolu never said those words. They are merely a figment of Gabriel Omohinmin’s wild & ambitious imagination.

Contrary to these fictions invented by G. Omohinmin, Oba Akiolu has categorically said on camera that Eko never belonged to Benin. But that there was a strong & close-knitted relationship “in the past” between the two kingdoms. He also noted that Ọba Ado of Eko has a Bini-side which traces to a certain Ọba of Benin.

Lagos traditions state that this Bini-side of Ọba Ado is his mother’s side; and that his father’s (Aṣipa’s) side is Yoruba (Awori sub-group to be precise) from Iṣeri.

Cheers

Christistruth00:




Read Slowly

sir alfred moloney
British Colonial Governor of Lagos
1890

I deal with eyewitness historical accounts when they are available. Your Sir Alfred Moloney 1890 hearsay accounts fall short of my requirements.

Sir Moloney 1890 accounts is over 60 years after the first Europeans who visited Oyo wrote what they saw, Sir Moloney wasn't on ground in Oyo in 1826.

If you have been following the debate between myself and Tao11 so far, you will realised that we both agreed that the first Europeans who visited yoruba land met the Alaafin of Oyo as the king of the yoruba people and entered a treaty with him.

You can now see that your current Ooni who is pretending all over the place as the most senior king of the yoruba people was a political creation not backed by the eyewitness historical accounts that have been presented so far.

It was the Alaafin according to TAO11, the British heard about in England as the king of the yoruba people and kingdom, not the Ooni.

When the British arrived Oyo for the first time in 1826, they met the Alaafin as the king of yoruba people but the Alaafin relied on the Oba of Benin for military assistance to rule his kingdom.

You can now see that the Ooni is a politically created spiritual/yoruba leader.

•
See samuk trying to escape. Looking for “easy” targets.

I’m still waiting on you for the first-hand reports from an eyewitness who regards Benin as an “empire”.

This shouldn’t be too difficult naw. Moreover, we have seen such eyewitness reports for Oyo.

Hurry up and bring one of such for Benin.
•

---

As per the alleged agreements you’re claiming I have with you, the link below shows where I shredded you. And you didn’t dare reply the comment.

https://www.nairaland.com/6697675/power-oba-benin-wield-past/15#109495165

samuk:
[s]I deal with eyewitness historical accounts when they are available. You Sir Alfred Moloney 1890 hearsay accounts fall short of my requirements.

Sir Moloney 1890 accounts is over 60 years after the first Europeans who visited Oyo wrote what the saw, Sir Moloney wasn't on ground in Oyo in 1826.

If you have been following the debate between myself and Tao11 so far, you will realised ghat we both agreed that the first Europeans who visited yoruba land met the Alaafin of Oyo as the king of the yoruba people and entered a treaty with him.

You can now see that your current Ooni who is pretending all over the place as the most senior king of the yoruba people was a political creation not backed by the eyewitness historical accounts that have been presented so far.

It was the Alaafin according to TAO11, the British heard about in England as the king of the yoruba people and kingdom, not the Ooni.

When the British arrived Oyo for the first time in 1826, they met the Alaafin as the king of yoruba people but the Alaafin relied on the Oba of Benin for military assistance to rule his kingdom.

You can now see that the Ooni is a politically created spiritual/yoruba leader.[/s]

The Ọɣọni of Ifẹ no longer have his empire as at the 1820s when the Europeans visited Oyo-Ile.

The Alaafin is the Yoruba monarch who had an empire from the late-1500s to the 1830s.

In other words, he is the Yoruba monarch who had an empire as at when Clapperton, et al. visited Oyo-Ile.

For this reason (being the one whom they observed as the head of an empire), they named him as the king of the Yorubas.

The Ọɣọni’s supremacy over all other Yorùbá kings is primordial, ancient, long-standing, and permanent.

See the three attachments below in turns for a trend of the Ọɣọni’s supremacy over the course of history.

(A) An older Alaafin bowing very intently to a younger Ọɣọni. ~ 2018.

(B) The Ọɣọni rightfully recognized as the head of all Yoruba monarchs, including the Alaafin. ~ 1903.

(C) The “Realm of the Ọɣọni” (viz. Regnum Orguene) as written across the Nigeria region. ~ 1513.

Cheers.

Cc: Christistruth00

SirNewtonNG:
This beating is too much, madam take it easy o. This is pure sexism

Don’t mind the Bini dullard. Hopefully, I’m not charged for “violence” in addition to “sexism”. Lol.

Their lies irk me no be small.

Very predictable little people.

samuk:


I deal with eyewitness historical accounts when they are available. You Sir Alfred Moloney 1890 hearsay accounts fall short of my requirements.

Sir Moloney 1890 accounts is over 60 years after the first Europeans who visited Oyo wrote what the saw, Sir Moloney wasn't on ground in Oyo in 1826.

If you have been following the debate between myself and Tao11 so far, you will realised that we both agreed that the first Europeans who visited yoruba land met the Alaafin of Oyo as the king of the yoruba people and entered a treaty with him.

You can now see that your current Ooni who is pretending all over the place as the most senior king of the yoruba people was a political creation not backed by the eyewitness historical accounts that have been presented so far.

It was the Alaafin according to TAO11, the British heard about in England as the king of the yoruba people and kingdom, not the Ooni.

When the British arrived Oyo for the first time in 1826, they met the Alaafin as the king of yoruba people but the Alaafin relied on the Oba of Benin for military assistance to rule his kingdom.

You can now see that the Ooni is a politically created spiritual/yoruba leader.

How can someone who said their lost Prince Ekhalerderhan that died at Ugothon was Oduduwa

Suddenly turn around and say he deals with Eye Withness Accounts , wasn’t that hearsay ?


Did you or any Europeans see and identify the lost Ekhalerderhan as Oduduwa ?


Sir Alfred Moloney was Physically in Yorubaland and he Could guage where the influence of the Alaafin reached

He contested the Boundaries of British Nigeria with the French Of Dahomey and would have been aware of the Alaafins subject Dahomey Oba’s his historic influences over the whole Country


In addition to what he read Sir Alfred Moloney was Physically Present in Yorubaland and he Could guage where the influence of the Alaafin reached

Moloney contested the Boundaries of British Nigeria with the French Of Dahomey and would have been aware of the Alaafins Dahomey subject Oba’s and Allies eg Oba of Porto Novo , Oba of Ketu and Alaafins historic influences over the whole Country of Dahomey

Badagry the Seme Border Itself and Porto Novo were still under the Alaafin of Oyo

TAO11:
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See samuk trying to escape. Looking for “easy” targets.

I’m still waiting on you for the first-hand reports from an eyewitness who regards Benin as an “empire”.

This shouldn’t be too difficult naw. Moreover, we have seen such eyewitness reports for Oyo.

Hurry up and bring one of such for Benin.
•

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As per the alleged agreements you’re claiming I have with you, the link below shows where I shredded you. And you didn’t dare reply the comment.

https://www.nairaland.com/6697675/power-oba-benin-wield-past/15#109495165


The Ọɣọni of Ifẹ no longer have his empire as at the 1820s when the Europeans visited Oyo-Ile.

The Alaafin is the Yoruba monarch who had an empire from the late-1500s to the 1830s.

In other words, he is the Yoruba monarch who had an empire as at when Clapperton, et al. visited Oyo-Ile.

For this reason (being the one whom they observed as the head of an empire), they named him as the king of the Yorubas.

The Ọɣọni’s supremacy over all other Yorùbá kings is primordial, ancient, long-standing, and permanent.

See the three attachments below in turns for a trend of the Ọɣọni’s supremacy over the course of history.

(A) An older Alaafin bowing very intently to a younger Ọɣọni. ~ 2018.

(B) The Ọɣọni rightfully recognized as the head of all Yoruba monarchs, including the Alaafin. ~ 1903.

(C) The “Realm of the Ọɣọni” (viz. Regnum Orguene) as written across the Nigeria region. ~ 1513.

Cheers.

Cc: Christistruth00

Everyone can now appreciate the reason I have always insisted on verifiable eyewitness historical accounts, because a lot of fairytales are made up in the absence of eyewitness historical accounts.

What you just wrote up there can't be verified because yoruba eyewitness historical accounts only began in 1826.

You claimed that the Ooni had an empire pre 1500s and the Alaafin took over and dominated the yoruba people between 1500s to 1800.

If indeed the Ooni had an empire pre 1500s, it would have come into contact with Benin whose eyewitness historical accounts had already began, mind you I am applying the same standard of verifiable historical accounts to Benin history, not just limiting it to Yoruba only.

Benin Europeans eyewitness historical accounts

The various Europeans, Portuguese, Dutch, British etc, that had contact with Benin for almost 400 years before 1826 never recorded Benin having any relationship or traditions with Ife, Ooni, Oranmiyan or Oduduwa, infact none of these names appeared in Benin history of over 400 years, 1400s to mid-1800s

I challenged you to show the readers where Ooni, Oranmiyan and Oduduwa appeared in Benin history as late as 1888, before the reign of Oba Ovonramwen, the last independent Oba of Benin.

In a situation when traditions don't agree, the best way of resolving issues is to call for eyewitnesses to the events.

Both Benin and Ife traditions don't agree on the personage of Oduduwa and Oranmiyan.

All Obas of Benin after Ovonramwen who have spoken on the Origin of Oduduwa have consistently maintained that he was the banished Benin prince Ekaladerhan.

Yoruba traditions in the other hand disagrees that Oduduwa was a Benin prince, preferring to rather trace his origin to the middle eastern countries of Saudi Arabia or Egypt. The recent 2010 and slightly earlier attempts to say Oduduwa was a native of Ife is not yet mainstream, so wouldn't dwell on it.

Eyewitness historical accounts of Oduduwa.


There are no eyewitness historical accounts of Oduduwa. Infact, Oduduwa was variously represented in yoruba traditions as being a deity, female, myth etc, it was not until 1897, 71 years after the first Europeans eyewitnesses visited Oyo that Samuel Johnson presented Oduduwa as the father of the then yoruba nation. Mind you the concept of yoruba nation keeps evolving with more people being added to the conglomerate daily.

The first Europeans that visited Oyo where never told anything about yoruba people coming from one source or Oduduwa, the first hand account the Europeans collected from Sultan Bello who was one of earliest writer of yoruba history in 1824 thus traces yoruba people back to Saudi Arabia but it never mentioned Oduduwa.

Personification of Oduduwa

It's save to say that a human face was put on Oduduwa by Samuel Johnson around 1897, before then, Oduduwa was anything but human.

1897 is also when the fairytale of Oduduwa began to enter Benin history, it was absent and missing in the previous over 400 years of historically documented Europeans eyewitnesses accounts.

Yoruba people are quick to point to the Benin historian Egharevba to help their case, but even Egharevba was silent on Oduduwa origin, he was consistent with the Benin Palace traditions that he was at Uhe/Ife when Benin chief came calling. The silence of Egharevba on Oduduwa was what made late Oba Erediawa intervened and set the Benin Palace traditional records straight by letting the world know that Oduduwa according to Benin traditions was the banished prince Ekaladerhan. Oba Ewuare have since reiterated his father and ancestors position.

Possibility of having multiple Oduduwa in history .

Oduduwa according to Benin traditions was a Benin prince and according to yoruba traditions and depending on who you speak to traces Oduduwa to Egypt, Saudi Arabia or recently Ife.

So, Oduduwa started his career as a god, goddess, myth, a native of Benin, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and most recent Ife.

There is another historical narrative in Benin that traces Benin ancient Uhe to around the Igala Kingdom of Ida not present day Ife in Osun state.

The late 1400s or 1500s Ogane in Benin history that mentioned Benin connections to a priestly Kingdom in the east and also the Igala traditions that acknowledged that there was a Benin dynasty in Ida for nearly 200 years starting in the 1500s supports this second school of taught that Benin ancient Uhe connections was with the middle belt not Western Ife which is the opposite direction to what was documented by the European eyewitness.

Summary:

1. There are no historical eyewitness accounts to support Benin/Ife connection.

2. Oduduwa, Oranmiyan and Ooni are not mentioned in Benin history between 1400s to 1890.

3. Benin traditions and yoruba traditions disagree on Oduduwa origin.

4. Yoruba eyewitness historical accounts began in 1826. Nothing about Oduduwa as being human and father of yoruba people was documented until 1890s.

5. Both Benin and Yoruba eyewitness historical accounts didn't mention Oduduwa and Oranmiyan.

6. The Alaafin is the king of yoruba people that can be verified by Europeans eyewitnesses accounts.

7. In the absence of any eyewitness historical accounts to support the Ooni's position as king of the yoruba people, his position remains a politically created and appointed position.

8. Although, this is a yoruba problem but the Alaafin is the one that eyewitness historical accounts will always remember as the true king of the yoruba people before he was politically shortchanged.

A Quick Re-Cap: In this episode of “humiliating @samuk again”, you made a number of embarrassing statements which you’ve, of course, been duly disgraced for.

Your humiliation was couriered to you, by yours truly, via a series of replies directed to you. Of these replies, you are shit-scared to type even one word of reply to a whole eight (8 ).

You understand the humiliating implication of daring to reply such comments of mine. The following are my comments [on this same page 16] which you’re afraid to type a reply to:

(1) My reply of 12:54pm On Jan 18, 2022
(2) My reply of 11:22pm On Jan 18, 2022
(3) My reply of 11:42pm On Jan 18, 2022
(4) My reply of 11:51pm On Jan 18, 2022
(5) My reply of 12:18am On Jan 19, 2022
(6) My reply of 04:25am On Jan 19, 2022
(7) My reply of 07:28am On Jan 19, 2022
(8 ) My reply of 07:07pm On Jan 19, 2022

You obviously bowed your head in shame and realized how you’ve been making a fool of yourself all the way from your reply of 09:35pm On Jan 17 on page 15.

You’ve clearly realized [after much spanking] that no eyewitness called your Benin an “empire”. But they did call Oyo an “empire”. And it’s okay that you've realized your foolishness.

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Having recapped that, it is clear that the shame from the above got to you. As such, you’re desperate to veil this shame by attempting to deflect & deviate to a new subject about Oduduwa; relationship of father-Ife & son-Benin; Oranmiyan; etc.

Unfortunately for you however, these deflections & deviations are the worst subjects for you to run to in the hope of safety.

You’ve been severely battered & literally r*ped by me on this subject all over Nairaland. Even on this very thread, you were left broken sometime last year when you brought it up. Refer to:

(1) My reply of 08:10am On Sep 07, 2021 [i.e. last year] on page 15 of this same thread.
(2) My reply of 08:26am On Sep 07, 2021 [i.e. last year] on page 15 of this same thread.

Anyway, let’s see if you’ve got anything new to say this time around; or if it’s still the same old cr@p which is already debunked everywhere. Let’s see how badly you’ll fare this time.

samuk:
[s]Everyone can now appreciate the reason I have always insisted on verifiable eyewitness historical accounts, because a lot of fairytales are made up in the absence of eyewitness historical accounts.[/s]

What I’m hearing you say here is that calling Benin an “EmPiRE” is fairytale & fiction -- because in reality no eyewitness ever used the word “empire” to describe your Benin.

What I’m also hearing you say here is that most of the personages in your Benin’s history are mere fairytales & fictions -- because in reality there are no eyewitnesses report of their names. These fairytales & fictional characters would then include:

Eweka I
Uwuakhuahen
Ehenmihen
Ewedo
Oguola
Edoni
Udagbedo
Ohen
Egbeka
Orobiru
Uwaifiokun
Ewuare
Ezoti
Olua
Ozolua
Esigie
Orhogbua
Ehengbuda
Ohuan
Ahanzae
Akenzae
Akengboi
Akenkpaye
Akengbedo
Ore-Oghene
Ewuakpe
Ozuere
Akenzua I
Eresoyen
Akengbuda
Obanosa
Ogbebo
Osemwende

(1) Do you insist that these personages are fairytales & fictional?? Please answer with a Yes or No

(2) Do you now know that Benin was never an “EmPiRe”?? Please answer with a Yes or No

Remember, there are no EyeWiTnEsS report in relation to these two questions.
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Continued ...