waldigit:

On that note I submit that "fact" may not be the "truth" . Do you agree?

lol
Your way of reasoning is worrisome

waldigit:

Teach me pls.

It's simple, If I claim that I can fly, for you to believe it, I have to fly. I don't ask you to prove that i cannot fly.

If I say that I have a drug that can cure HIV, I don't tell you to prove to me that the drug cannot cure HIV. I get to work to prove it with testable evidence. I would probably get HIV patients to participate in a study. Not just HIV patients but it has to be enough sample size like 100 people. I will test the drug on them repeatedly, if the result is the same everytime or almost everytime I test it then that is evidence that the drug cures HIV. If I test it on 100 patients and only 30 is cured, there's still no statistically significant evidence that the drug can cure HIV because that's just 30%. More research needs to be done in this regard.


If you make a claim that miracles are real, how can we test it and give us repeatable and testable results. Can we go to hospital to test it on large enough sample size and deduce a statistical significant repeatable results? If no, then that claim cannot be said to be a fact.

This is why we don't take anything Christians say seriously, they cannot be tested hence cannot be trusted.

elated177:


As much as you are willing to share.

Well, I'm an empiricist and skeptic hence the reason I'm an Agnostic atheist.
I also question alot of stuffs outside of religion. There's never going to be a time I will accept whatever anyone says without an evidence for me to test

elated177:


How am I projecting myself on you? Your last sentence does not make sense.



You got it all wrong, dude. You displayed entitlement mentality in your write. You sounded like anyone owed you some kind of explanation. If you, davien, want to learn, you must beg, plead and implore those who know. The days of throwing pearls to pigs are gone.

You in fact do owe him an explanation. I bet you've never evangelised before or if you have you haven't done it to someone who isn't gullible or stupid.

Workch:
Well, I'm an empiricist and skeptic hence the reason I'm an Agnostic atheist.
I also question alot of stuffs outside of religion. There's never going to be a time I will accept whatever anyone says without an evidence for me to test

Exactly like me. I wish I had more people like u in my life. I'd love to have meaningful discussions with you

suicidesheep:


Exactly like me. I wish I had more people like u in my life. I'd love to have meaningful discussions with you

I can add you to a whatsapp heathen group for Lagos residents.

We also hangout sometimes

Workch:
I can add you to a whatsapp heathen group for Lagos residents.

We also hangout sometimes

sure..
Here are my digits 0..8..1..1..5..8..8..1..1..5...3

Workch:
It's simple, If I claim that I can fly, for you to believe it, I have to fly. I don't ask you to prove that i cannot fly.

If I say that I have a drug that can cure HIV, I don't tell you to prove to me that the drug cannot cure HIV. I get to work to prove it with testable evidence. I would probably get HIV patients to participate in a study. Not just HIV patients but it has to be enough sample size like 100 people. I will test the drug on them repeatedly, if the result is the same everytime or almost everytime I test it then that is evidence that the drug cures HIV. If I test it on 100 patients and only 30 is cured, there's still no statistically significant evidence that the drug can cure HIV because that's just 30%. More research needs to be done in this regard.


If you make a claim that miracles are real, how can we test it and give us repeatable and testable results. Can we go to hospital to test it on large enough sample size and deduce a statistical significant repeatable results? If no, then that claim cannot be said to be a fact.

This is why we don't take anything Christians say seriously, they cannot be tested hence cannot be trusted.

Christians are people who do not see yet believe. They believe something they can't see. This is because they use the sense that is not physical. Nicolas Tesla was in that spirit when he said science would achieve more if they can start studying non physical phenomenon.
But if a man certified dead clinically came back life, I am not ashamed to believe his testimony.

waldigit:


Christians are people who do not see yet believe. They believe something they can't see. This is because they use the sense that is not physical. Nicolas Tesla was in that spirit when he said science would achieve more if they can start studying non physical phenomenon.
But if a man certified dead clinically came back life, I am not ashamed to believe his testimony.

Its okay if you believe it, what's not okay is expecting people to believe you without evidence.

LordReed:


There is no functional difference between fact and truth.

There is a whole lot sir. The difference is human limitation. Our limitation made us taught Earth was round for centuries. In those period that was scientific fact, but alas the Earth is spherical, that is the "truth"
What we celebrate today as scientific fact may become illusion tomorrow.
My Bible teaches" trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding.
In my profession, I am used to a lot human and instrument error.

That is why we Christians rely on Holy Spirit for the truth.
Even human judicial system relies on judgement which is based on what appears to be event to independent reasonable observer. This is why its not authoritative truth but what is humanly possible to be admitted as truth.

Workch:
Its okay if you believe it, what's not okay is expecting people to believe you without evidence.

What you desire is the truth. Alas , evidence can't deliver the truth to you. Why? Humans has limitation. Instrument, devices has limitation. Pie 22/7 on a super computer is a mere approximation. Let me ask you how much of the design capacity of your brain can you ever use in your life time?
If you rely on evidence man and his instrument can offer you to know the truth, you may be getting ready for unpleasant surprises.
What is revealed is for man, what is not, is for God.

waldigit:

What you desire is the truth. Alas , evidence can't deliver the truth to you. Why? Humans has limitation. Instrument, devices has limitation. Pie 22/7 on a super computer is a mere approximation. Let me ask you how much of the design capacity of your brain can you ever use in your life time?
If you rely on evidence man and his instrument can offer you to know the truth, you may be getting ready for unpleasant surprises.
What is revealed is for man, what is not, is for God.

The limitation of humans is not evidence for your God.

That's called fallacy of appealing to ignorance. Because we don't know it yet is not an excuse to fill the gap with your God.

We believe in evidence. Again, if It cannot be tested then it can't be trusted.

Workch:
Well, I'm an empiricist and skeptic hence the reason I'm an Agnostic atheist.
I also question alot of stuffs outside of religion. There's never going to be a time I will accept whatever anyone says without an evidence for me to test

How do you suppose the supernatural be tested?

suicidesheep:


You in fact do owe him an explanation. I bet you've never evangelised before or if you have you haven't done it to someone who isn't gullible or stupid.

Nope! I don't owe anyone who displays derogatory and aggressive attitudes towards the Scriptures of YHVH Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, any explanation. If any confused individual wants to learn and understand, he/she must ask, seek and knock politely. He or she must show some respect. In some cases, he/she will have to beg, plead and implore. Show that you really deserve the time. Like I said, the days of throwing pearls to pigs are gone.

elated177:



How do you suppose the supernatural be tested?

We can test the statistical significance of miracles on sick samples in hospitals.
It has been done anyways and turns out that miracles are not real

waldigit:

There is a whole lot sir. The difference is human limitation. Our limitation made us taught Earth was round for centuries. In those period that was scientific fact, but alas the Earth is spherical, that is the "truth"

Huh? What do mean by round versus spherical? Do you mean scientists taught that the earth was a round flat disc?

What we celebrate today as scientific fact may become illusion tomorrow.
My Bible teaches" trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding.
In my profession, I am used to a lot human and instrument error.

I don't think you understand how scientific progress works. Take gravity as an example, gravity was thought to be an attraction between bodies but with Einstein's theories it was discovered that gravity is not an attraction but rather it is disturbance in the space time continuum by energy or matter. Those who previously described gravity were not wrong because they described the relationship between masses mathematically correctly but they were not correct in their general description. That did not mean they had a wrong fact, one doesn't call a description a fact. The facts don't change, like the mathematical description of gravity remains accurate even though we have a better understanding of what it is. Nor is instrumental inaccuracy mean facts have changed.

That is why we Christians rely on Holy Spirit for the truth.

You rely on an untestable and an unreliable method and you have the gall to castigate scientific change? LMAO.

Even human judicial system relies on judgement which is based on what appears to be event to independent reasonable observer. This is why its not authoritative truth but what is humanly possible to be admitted as truth.

You are mixing subjective judgement with established facts. Judicial systems are not arbiters of truth or else their judgements would be impossible to over turn. They are arbiters of law and how it applies to society. A judge is not an omniscient being and so cannot stay in his chambers and know what the truth of a matter is, what they do is determine how a case presented to them is affected by the law. If you think a judge is an arbiter of truth you are sorely mistaken.

LordReed:


Huh? What do mean by round versus spherical? Do you mean scientists taught that the earth was a round flat disc?



I don't think you understand how scientific progress works. Take gravity as an example, gravity was thought to be an attraction between bodies but with Einstein's theories it was discovered that gravity is not an attraction but rather it is disturbance in the space time continuum by energy or matter. Those who previously described gravity were not wrong because they described the relationship between masses mathematically correctly but they were not correct in their general description. That did not mean they had a wrong fact, one doesn't call a description a fact. The facts don't change, like the mathematical description of gravity remains accurate even though we have a better understanding of what it is. Nor is instrumental inaccuracy mean facts have changed.



You rely on an untestable and an unreliable method and you have the gall to castigate scientific change? LMAO.



You are mixing subjective judgement with established facts. Judicial systems are not arbiters of truth or else their judgements would be impossible to over turn. They are arbiters of law and how it applies to society. A judge is not an omniscient being and so cannot stay in his chambers and know what the truth of a matter is, what they do is determine how a case presented to them is affected by the law. If you think a judge is an arbiter of truth you are sorely mistaken.

Apology for error in to the use of " round" instead of "flat"
Then you said "scientific progress" I hope the idea is not that science has never been wrong! That would be very shocking!
Again, you claim judge is not omniscient being, glad to hear that, because it's the same with all human beings.
This is why man would perpetually search for the truth which can only be obtained from personal relationship with God.
With all the glory of science, it took only tiny Covid 19 to bring the best health institution to its knees.
Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

waldigit:

Apology for error in to the use of " round" instead of "flat"
Then you said "scientific progress" I hope the idea is not that science has never been wrong! That would be very shocking!
Again, you claim judge is not omniscient being, glad to hear that, because it's the same with all human beings.
This is why man would perpetually search for the truth which can only be obtained from personal relationship with God.
With all the glory of science, it took only tiny Covid 19 to bring the best health institution to its knees.
Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

That the Earth is a sphere has been known since antiquity so which scientist was teaching that the Earth is flat?

We are talking of the difference between fact and truth which I said functional doesn't exist while you are point ing to scientific facts as a claim that facts are not essential truths so go ahead and point out scientific facts that were not true. The Earth being flat is not one of them since that assertion has no connection with science.

If those who claim to be god believers or hear from god were infallible I would say you have something but as it turns out they are no more infallible than non-believers or non-hearers.

The fear of god is the beginning of being hoodwinked.

LordReed:


That the Earth is a sphere has been known since antiquity so which scientist was teaching that the Earth is flat?

We are talking of the difference between fact and truth which I said functional doesn't exist while you are point ing to scientific facts as a claim that facts are not essential truths so go ahead and point out scientific facts that were not true. The Earth being flat is not one of them since that assertion has no connection with science.

If those who claim to be god believers or hear from god were infallible I would say you have something but as it turns out they are no more infallible than non-believers or non-hearers.

The fear of god is the beginning of being hoodwinked.

What can't be investigated in laboratory doesn't exist?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDxUmPN07no

Workch:
We can test the statistical significance of miracles on sick samples in hospitals.
It has been done anyways and turns out that miracles are not real

Miracles are as real as the oxygen we inhale.

LordReed:


If those who claim to be god believers or hear from god were infallible I would say you have something but as it turns out they are no more infallible than non-believers or non-hearers.[/ quote]

Infallibility is reserved for the Creator of heaven and earth alone. Only he is infallible.


[quote author=LordReed post=109891359]

The fear of god is the beginning of being hoodwinked.

Reed, the fear of YHVH Almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, is the beginning of wisdom.

People worship a lot of things. Such things are their gods.

elated177:



Miracles are as real as the oxygen we inhale.

Well, you have any evidence?

Workch:
Well, you have any evidence?

What kind of evidence?

killyaselfie:
If these gods could take a couple of days out their busy schedules to speak to ancient people, they can make time to speak to contemporary people.

Or, the glaring truths that most can’t face. The scriptures are allegorical, the gods are mythical.
Life is meaningless. The wise and the fool will meet the same fate. The moral and the immoral will meet the same fate. Your god is as real as his god and her goddess. The priesthoods were founded to control people in complement of explicit force. There is nothing new under the sun. Your god is not original. We toil under the sun and find meaning in our daily lives but ultimately it’s all for nought. We will all die and in due time we will all be forgotten. The ones who come after us will be forgotten by the ones who come after them. The sun will consume the earth and it will be like an ant dying on earth. Insignificant. So, love freely and cherish life; it doesn’t last for “eternity”.

Brilliant, even if pessimistic. Much here is very well said - even if one holds out the hope that there is some extraneous meaning to this life - one still has to say - very well said.

DeepSight:


Brilliant, even if pessimistic. Much here is very well said - even if one holds out the hope that there is some extraneous meaning to this life - one still has to say - very well said.

“Pessimism” or reality. Whichever way you view it, it probably gave rise to gods, the afterlife, and “the hope that there is extraneous meaning to this life”. It is also the reason people compartmentalize their faith in the face of contradictory reality because to acknowledge it is to give way to existential dread. Better a comfortable lie than the indifferent truth.

killyaselfie:


“Pessimism” or reality. Whichever way you view it, it probably gave rise to gods, the afterlife, and “the hope that there is extraneous meaning to this life”. It is also the reason people compartmentalize their faith in the face of contradictory reality because to acknowledge it is to give way to existential dread. Better a comfortable lie than the indifferent truth.

Thats a powerful phrase - "existential dread" - and many suffer from it on an individual level - it is a very real thing that haunts people. However as a species we also suffer from it at a collective level, giving rise to religious hope and fantasy. You are right about people compartmentalizing their faith - too many contradictions abound.

elated177:



What kind of evidence?

Evidence is evidence. It should be testable.
Theres no kind of evidence

Workch:
Evidence is evidence. It should be testable.
Theres no kind of evidence

You are not getting any. You are like Reed.

elated177:



You are not getting any. You are like Reed.

There's no evidence that God exist.
If he does then I need one I can test, test it and make sure it's your own personal God

orisa37:
You are just confused. That's why.

he made a lot of sense. na you confusion jam

Workch:
There's no evidence that God exist.
If he does then I need one I can test, test it and make sure it's your own personal God

You are not getting any.