Padipadi:
Baseless thread recommended to be thrown in abyss

GodIsDead:
Let's talk about the god that kicked Yahweh's butt

---

When discussing the "Gods", pagans are often challenged by Christians with the God of the Bible known as Yahweh, and Yahweh gets laden with these attributes of omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence and sometimes omnipresence. Now, disregarding the incoherence of the Trinity for the moment and how often the "omni-" traits are meaningless to define anyway, it's difficult to figure out exactly how Christians come to the conclusion that their God has these traits. Some arguments connecting him to the creation of the world would argue that these traits are necessary for his existence, but I don't see power sufficient to create the universe as necessarily omnipotent, nor do I see the ability to establish a connection between being the creator and the God of the Bible beyond simple scriptural claims. Nothing about the Christian experience of their God implies that he must be the only one, nor does it imply that he must be the creator.

To make this case, we can assume the response to prayers as claimed by Christians as legitimate, and we can even grant their various miracles, but NONE of these suggests their God is all-powerful or even the most powerful, because in order to grant all these for one God, we have to grant them for all Gods accross traditions, given that we have no reason to dismiss other Gods. So we look to scripture and we find the various events with Moses, who historians don't think existed, or is based on any real events... but that aside, locusts and frogs do not make for omnipotence. And even splitting the Red Sea and destroying the walls of Jericho are nothing compared to creation which can't even be connected to Yahweh except through scriptures, and even then, you have to overlook the various scientific errors in the narrative which are handed down by a "perfect" and "all-knowing" God. But Christians will point to PROPHESY to show the superiority of their God - that each prophesy that comes true is the true revelation of their God's omniscience and/or omnipotence in order to bring these events about. But surely, if that were the case, then ALL prophecies would have come true... except that's not what we find, and to discover this, we only need to look at the Bible.

Now, Christians mean many things when they talk about "false gods". Sometimes they mean Gods that do not exist. Sometimes they mean Gods that they simply re-label as "demons" for their own reasons. The interesting part about this is that often, Christians do not deny the existence of other Gods, they simply namecall them as "demons" in order to avoid being considered polytheists (even though their God has a son, but that's besides the point).

So in this story, we'll discuss a deity mentioned in the Bible multiple times called Chemosh. The worship of this God is called "The Abomination of Moab" and is introduced in Jerusalem by a wise polytheist named King Solomon as recorded in 1 Kings Chapter 11, and here's the passage:

11 Now King Solomon loved many foreign women. Besides Pharaoh’s daughter, he married women from Moab, Ammon, Edom, Sidon, and from among the Hittites. 2 The Lord had clearly instructed the people of Israel, “You must not marry them, because they will turn your hearts to their gods.” Yet Solomon insisted on loving them anyway. 3 He had 700 wives of royal birth and 300 concubines. And in fact, they did turn his heart away from the Lord. 4 In Solomon’s old age, they turned his heart to worship other gods instead of being completely faithful to the Lord his God, as his father, David, had been. 5 Solomon worshiped Ashtoreth, the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech,[a] the detestable god of the Ammonites. 6 In this way, Solomon did what was evil in the Lord’s sight; he refused to follow the Lord completely, as his father, David, had done. 7 On the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem,[b] he even built a pagan shrine for Chemosh, the detestable god of Moab, and another for Molech, the detestable god of the Ammonites. 8 Solomon built such shrines for all his foreign wives to use for burning incense and sacrificing to their gods. 9 The Lord was very angry with Solomon, for his heart had turned away from the Lord, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice. 10 He had warned Solomon specifically about worshiping other gods, but Solomon did not listen to the Lord’s command. 11 So now the Lord said to him, “Since you have not kept my covenant and have disobeyed my decrees, I will surely tear the kingdom away from you and give it to one of your servants.
- 1 Kings 11: 1-11 NLT

King Solomon, though depicted here with a little bias, seems to have been a loving husband with tolerance towards the faiths of the women that he married. In his tolerance, and given his own polytheism in respect for the personal agency of his wives, he created a space for his wives to practice their faiths - much to the frustration of future record keepers who don't seem to deny the events but feel compelled to colour it with disdain, and they cast their deity as upset with him but powerless to stop him. Among the Gods for which Solomon creates a space is Chemosh - the aforementioned "Abomination of Moab" who functioned among the Moabites in a similar way that Yahweh did for the Israelites, and some of the evidence of this is the Moabite Stone, describing the power of Chemosh written by King Mesha of Moab, and in it he says:

I am Mesha, son of Chemosh, King of Moab, the Debonite. My father reigned over Moab for thirty years and I became King after my father, and I made this high place for Chemosh - the High Place That Delivers for he hath delivered me from all that hath attacked me, and because he made me see my desire upon all my enemies. Omri, King of Israel. Oppressed Israel many days because Chemosh was angry with his land. And his sons succeeded him. And he also said, "I will oppress Moab". In my days he said this, and I saw my desire upon him and Israel was humbled with everlasting humiliation. Omri had taken possession of the land of Madiba, and his people occupied it during his days, and half the days of his son. Forty years. But Chemosh restored it in my days.

He goes on to describe his various victories, the slaughters associated with them. The lands taken from Israel despite their attempts to defend from him. And he attributes every bit of it to the glory of Chemosh. He even describes taking from Israel the vessels of Yahweh and bringing them before Chemosh, implying victory over Yahweh. But the Moabite claiming victory and attributing it to Chemosh isn't quite enough to say that Yahweh was defeated by Chemosh. And it could be argued that a struggle between people isn't quite a struggle between the Gods. But we have the Bible!...

18 This is an easy(A) thing in the eyes of the Lord; he will also deliver Moab into your hands. 19 You will overthrow every fortified city and every major town. You will cut down every good tree, stop up all the springs, and ruin every good field with stones.” 20 The next morning, about the time(B) for offering the sacrifice, there it was—water flowing from the direction of Edom! And the land was filled with water.(C) 21 Now all the Moabites had heard that the kings had come to fight against them; so every man, young and old, who could bear arms was called up and stationed on the border. 22 When they got up early in the morning, the sun was shining on the water. To the Moabites across the way, the water looked red—like blood. 23 “That’s blood!” they said. “Those kings must have fought and slaughtered each other. Now to the plunder, Moab!” 24 But when the Moabites came to the camp of Israel, the Israelites rose up and fought them until they fled. And the Israelites invaded the land and slaughtered the Moabites. 25 They destroyed the towns, and each man threw a stone on every good field until it was covered. They stopped up all the springs and cut down every good tree. Only Kir Hareseth(D) was left with its stones in place, but men armed with slings surrounded it and attacked it. 26 When the king of Moab saw that the battle had gone against him, he took with him seven hundred swordsmen to break through to the king of Edom, but they failed. 27 Then he took his firstborn(E) son, who was to succeed him as king, and offered him as a sacrifice on the city wall. The fury against Israel was great; they withdrew and returned to their own land.
- 2 Kings 3:18-27 NIV

This is 2 Kings Chapter 3. The verses leading up to this discuss that Mesha, the creator of the Moabite Stone, saw a change of power in Israel, and decided to stop paying tributes of a hundred thousand lambs, and the wall of a hundred thousand rams. The King of Israel, angered, rallied his soldiers and united with Judah to the South, and marched through Edom, gaining the support of the Edomite King on the way. In their uncertainty, they consulted a prophet about the upcoming battle - the Prophet Elisha (not to be confused with Elijah). Elisha tells the prophecy shown in 2 Kings 3 18-27. He tells of a miraculous event, giving water to the horses without rain, and that the Lord will hand Moab over to the Kings. The following day, the prophet's words come true and water miraculously appears without rain. The army drinks, and moves in on the Kingdom of Moab, and the Moabites flee before the might of the Israelite coalition. The passage talks of cities that fell before the coalition. They destroyed the good trees, sabotaged the good lands and destroyed water springs until finally they found Mesha, King of Moab. And Mesha assembles seven hundred swordsmen and goes out to meet the Edomite King in battle, and break through his lines. But he fails. And this... This is where it gets confusing.

According to the story, the King of Moab sacrificed someone to Chemosh. It's questionable whether or not it was the son of the Edomite King or his own son. Now, ignoring that the Bible often accuses enemies of human sacrifice where there's archeological evidence revealing a different story, or the irony of Christians looking down upon a kingly figure sacrificing his own son for his people, the story does have an interesting moment: Chemosh enters the battle, and overturns Yahweh's prophecy! It is described that as a result of the sacrifice, a great wrath came upon Israel, causing the Israelite coalition to retreat from King Mesha.

Now, the Moabite Stone and 2 Kings tell slightly different stories, but the differences are interesting. Both admit that the Moabites won, and both attribute the victory to Chemosh. But the Moabite record doesn't include any reference to the cause of sacrifice. It infact seems quite proud of how well things went, while the account in 2 Kings admits in embarrassment that their prophecy was overturned by the actions of another God. So now we're stuck in this position: Yahweh can fail. And therefore, he is not omnipotent. If he does have omnipotence however, that would mean that there are lies in this story, and that the Bible is NOT the perfect word of God, sacrificing Biblical authority.

But either way, the story reveals that even in a Biblical worldview, polytheism is true. And so the Christian that places their faith in the Bible must not only hold that polytheism is true, but that there are Gods stronger than Yahweh!

LordReed:


I am not sure you'd want your bible thrown into the abyss.

Padipadi:
throw it their. Then you can follow join like follow come charger!
You this baby atheist!

GodIsDead:

LordReed:


This was one of the parts of the Bible that got me thinking, either I was being lied to that the god was omnipotent or the power dynamic in this matter was way off. I mean how can Satan have enough power to turn the god's power aside, that cannot be in situation were the god is omnipotent.

I am glad my ruminations led me away from belief because I can't imagining continuing to hold such dissonance constantly, it's maddening.

LordReed:


I agree I am a baby atheist but you adult whatever you are still speak like an unreasoning buffoon.

elated177:



Posts like this particular one gladden your heart.

Have you ever used a narrow bush path before?

Padipadi:
koshi lo werey!
Stop thinking with your anus. Go for counseling

LordReed:


After you.

Padipadi:
You are running mad small small. Lemme reprr you to Seun before you bite him

LordReed:


[img]https://c./D0IFxCYfuj4AAAAd/yawn-guy.gif[/img]

Padipadi:
I ll frustrate you n you ll cry

LordReed:


Ýeah they do since it shows I am not the only one thinking of these things and coming to more reasonable conclusions.

elated177:



What reasonable conclusion? Why didn't you answer the question above?

elated177:



Show me where it was stated that the Moabites actually engaged the Israelites after the human sacrifice and won.

Have you ever been forced to turn back by a heap of human excreta?

Padipadi:
Baseless thread recommended to be thrown in abyss

GodIsDead:


Dude, how about you first of all read the OP again, and then carry out your own research? It was Chemosh who stepped in by himself and whooped the Israelites collective asses, inspite of the promises and prophecies of Yahweh

GodIsDead:


Nope. Never in my life. But since you've taken the liberty to liken Chemosh to "a heap of human excreta", can we safely conclude that the Almighty Yahweh cant even restrain a piece of shit and protect his people?

LordReed:


The conclusion that the Bible is a collection of stories that are a combination of folklore, myth and legend.

Not interested in answering that question.

elated177:


The Scriptures contain the great, mighty and awesome Word and works of the only true God, YHVH Almighty, the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the seas and everything in them.

Ehehehehe! It appears you know the implications of answering it.

[17]For thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not see wind, neither shall ye see rain; yet that valley shall be filled with water, that ye may drink, both ye, and your cattle, and your beasts.

[18]And this is but a light thing in the sight of the LORD: he will deliver the Moabites also into your hand.

[19]And ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones.

LordReed:


Yet it records Chemosh as besting him. These are the type of tales you hear from primitive people as explanation for things they don't understand.



If you have a point make it, you don't need me to answer some question.

elated177:


Show me the record, Reed.

donnie:




3. Sacrifice? Assuming you are a Nigerian, can you say you do not know what powers sacrifices (let alone human sacrifice) could activate? The problem was not with YAHUAH or His promise, but with the actions (or inactions) of his own people as compared with the desperation of the Moabite king demonstrated in the sacrificing of his own heir. In spirtuality, there are laws and sacrifice is one of them. It works irrespective of who is involved. The difference is, for those who are called according to His purpose (Isolele/Isalele/Israel), there is favour and victory because they are called and chosen by the Most High according to his purpose.

LordReed:


Read the OP again.

elated177:



Point to where it was stated in my Scriptures.

LordReed:


Read the OP again.