Often times I wonder why proponents of the PreTrib rapture doctrine do not ask certain questions.

First question, when will the last trump be blown?

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52;
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now my humble question is this, if the above scripture would happen (i.e. rapture) before the great tribulation, which trumpet is Jesus referring to in Matthew 24?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


Pretrib rapture doctrine believers, if the last trump would be blown before the great tribulation, which trumpet was Jesus referring to that would be blown immediately after the great tribulation?

Lol.

Pretrib Proponents have realised their errors

The first trumpet has been blown but the last is yet, the truth is that only faithful worshipers of God will be involved in the first trumpet as only them will grasp it but the last will affect all the inhabitants of the earth!

MaxInDHouse:
The first trumpet has been blown but the last is yet, the truth is that only faithful worshipers of God will be involved in the first trumpet as only them will grasp it but the last will affect all the inhabitants of the earth!

Please can you elaborate further

Thanks

OkCornel:

Please can you elaborate further
Thanks

The first trumpet will be blown so that all the dead in union with Christ Jesus will be raised from their graves to go and meet Jesus in heaven {1Thessalonians 4:16-17} before Jesus' coming to the earth that's not the plan for the co-rulers who will rule with the Christ,
Their government house supposed to be in Jerusalem {Isaiah 2:3} on David's throne {Isaiah 9:7} but the Jews polluted that city with the blood of faithful servants of God {Matthew 23:37-38} that's why God condemned that city {Matthew 21:43} so when Jesus said so many evil things that will befall Jerusalem {Luke 21:20-24} his apostles were totally confused because they knew all what Jesus promised them {Matthew 19:28} will be established in Jerusalem!
So Jesus announced something nobody has ever heard before! He said he's going to his father's house to prepare a place for them and he's coming back to take them there so their government house will no longer be Jerusalem but heaven! John 14:1-4

So by the time Jesus came to take them home in 1914 he has driven away Satan and all the demons in heaven (in preparation for his invited co-rulers) Revelations 12:7-12
That's why only Jesus' true disciples can grasp when the first trumpet is blown.
Jesus expatiated by telling the first century Christians what will happen for them to know that he has begun his rulership in heaven! Matthew 24:3-14

But as for the second and last trumpet that will occur when all the people on planet earth have formed one global religion that has nothing to do with either Bible or any other inspired book but on their own reasoning. Then they will start attacking the one and only group of people still adhering to what the Bible says. Revelations 19:17
That's the time the last trumpet will be blown and the angels in heaven with the 144,000 anointed brothers of Christ will come in defense of their earthly subjects who have remained obedient to what they were taught from the scriptures. By that time it will be to late for anyone to repent and join Jesus' disciples because they will be hiding from those who want to kill them off.
So Jesus and the heavenly armies will come down and kill them all! Revelations 19:17-21

God bless you and may you have PEACE!

OkCornel:
Often times I wonder why proponents of the PreTrib rapture doctrine do not ask certain questions.

First question, when will the last trump be blown?

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52;
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now my humble question is this, if the above scripture would happen (i.e. rapture) before the great tribulation, which trumpet is Jesus referring to in Matthew 24?

Are you willing to have a meaningful debate devoid of name-calling? If you are, then I'll show you in so many ways where you have missed it. For e.g, your question could have started by asking when is the first trump? Also take note that trump is a sound which is not to be confused with the word trumpet which is the instrument.

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


Pretrib rapture doctrine believers, if the last trump would be blown before the great tribulation, which trumpet was Jesus referring to that would be blown immediately after the great tribulation?

Notice in the Matthew 24 which you quoted Jesus says 1. That Angels (plural) will cause his elects from the 4 corners of the earth to come to where Jesus is landing.
2. That all human eyes will see him as he descends to the earth.

Is this not different from.1 Corinthians 15 that you just quoted? In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says it happened in the twinkling of an eye which means it was so rapid that the human eye won't catch it. Paul pivots on this same teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where he says Jesus himself is the one who comes down and uses the voice of an arch angel to initiate the movement of Christians. That verse says nothing about more than one angel.

Don't you think you are confusing both events? Don't you think Matthew 24 is not the same event with 1 Corinthians 15?

I have more things to say but let me start here.

Maestro21:

Are you willing to have a meaningful debate devoid of name-calling? If you are, then I'll show you in so many ways where you have missed it. For e.g, your question could have started by asking when is the first trump? Also take note that trump is a sound which is not to be confused with the word trumpet which is the instrument.


Notice in the Matthew 24 which you quoted Jesus says 1. That Angels (plural) will cause his elects from the 4 corners of the earth to come to where Jesus is landing.
2. That all human eyes will see him as he descends to the earth.

Is this not different from.1 Corinthians 15 that you just quoted? In 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says it happened in the twinkling of an eye which means it was so rapid that the human eye won't catch it. Paul pivots on this same teaching in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 where he says Jesus himself is the one who comes down and uses the voice of an arch angel to initiate the movement of Christians. That verse says nothing about more than one angel.

Don't you think you are confusing both events? Don't you think Matthew 24 is not the same event with 1 Corinthians 15?

I have more things to say but let me start here.

Absolutely! It would be a delight to have a meaningful discussion on this matter.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16 -17 and Matthew 24 v 29 - 31 are one and the same event. The first resurrection where Christ comes for the elect to reign with Him for a thousand years.

@Maestro21

Read 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52. The key word there is THE LAST TRUMP. This of course comes after the seven trumpet judgments in the book of revelation...those trumpet judgments would be blown in a period Jesus referred to as greatest period of distress in earth's history - see Matthew 24 v 21.

The last trumpet would then be blown immediately after the distress of those days - Matthew 24 v 29-31

OkCornel:


Absolutely! It would be a delight to have a meaningful discussion on this matter.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16 -17 and Matthew 24 v 29 - 31 are one and the same event. The first resurrection where Christ comes for the elect to reign with Him for a thousand years.

I have shown you posers to reconcile from the verses you have referred to. 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17 are referring to the same event. I agree. But Matthew 24 v 29-31 is not the same. I have already given you 2 clues. I can present more but I don't want a very long post.

So to help the discussion, try to reconcile how Matthew 24 refers to angels but both 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 only refer to Jesus himself and not angels. That should tell you the events are not the same. Matthew 24 matches more with Revelation 6 for e.g.

Maestro21:


I have shown you posers to reconcile from the verses you have referred to. 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17 are referring to the same event. I agree. But Matthew 24 v 29-31 is not the same. I have already given you 2 clues. I can present more but I don't want a very long post.

So to help the discussion, try to reconcile how Matthew 24 refers to angels but both 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 only refer to Jesus himself and not angels. That should tell you the events are not the same. Matthew 24 matches more with Revelation 6 for e.g.

Where in 1 Corinthians 15 did it mention only Jesus would return?

OkCornel:
@Maestro21

Read 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52. The key word there is THE LAST TRUMP. This of course comes after the seven trumpet judgments in the book of revelation...those trumpet judgments would be blown in a period Jesus referred to as greatest period of distress in earth's history - see Matthew 24 v 21.

The last trumpet would then be blown immediately after the distress of those days - Matthew 24 v 29-31

Yes Last trump refers to the last sound made by a trumpet. It never says last trumpet. Do you agree?

To buttress this, when was the first trump blown if that particular trump was the last and what did the first trump signify?

You referred to the 7 trumpets in Revelation but those 7 trumpets came after the 7 seals. In fact the 7th seal is what opened up the 7 trumpets. If you compare what the seals meant to what Jesus said in Matthew 24 you see them follow the same order as Jesus said it.

I want to say more but I want my posts to be concise.

OkCornel:


Where in 1 Corinthians 15 did it mention only Jesus would return?

But 1 Corinthians 15 is a segment of 1 Thessalonians 4 and was authored by the same man. Verse 16 of 1 Thessalonians 4 says it is Jesus himself.

Maestro21:


Yes Last trump refers to the last sound made by a trumpet. It never says last trumpet. Do you agree?

To buttress this, when was the first trump blown if that particular trump was the last and what did the first trump signify?

You referred to the 7 trumpets in Revelation but those 7 trumpets came after the 7 seals. In fact the 7th seal is what opened up the 7 trumpets. If you compare what the seals meant to what Jesus said in Matthew 24 you see them follow the same order as Jesus said it.

I want to say more but I want my posts to be concise.

Read again, trump, trumpet ...means the same thing;

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 (NIV);
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 (Amplified Bible);
51 Listen very carefully, I tell you a mystery [a secret truth decreed by God and previously hidden, but now revealed]; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed],
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at [the sound of] the last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [who believed in Christ] will be raised imperishable, and we will be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed].

Maestro21:


But 1 Corinthians 15 is a segment of 1 Thessalonians 4 and was authored by the same man. Verse 16 of 1 Thessalonians 4 says it is Jesus himself.

My question is simple, where in 1 Corinthians 15 did it mention only Jesus would return?

OkCornel:


Read again, trump, trumpet ...means the same thing;

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 (NIV);
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52;
51 Listen very carefully, I tell you a mystery [a secret truth decreed by God and previously hidden, but now revealed]; we will not all sleep [in death], but we will all be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed],
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at [the sound of] the last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [who believed in Christ] will be raised imperishable, and we will be [completely] changed [wondrously transformed].

It is not the same. NIV is one of the poorer translations when it comes especially to eschatology or prophecies in general. Remember if that verse is parallel with 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16, the literal translation is trump.

There is a reason it is key but I can let it pass for now just to show you more.

Let us say that word is Trumpet then what did the first Trumpet signify from 1 Corinthians 15 or from 1 Thessalonians 4?

OkCornel:


My question is simple, where in 1 Corinthians 15 did it mention only Jesus would return?

1 Corinthians 15 on its own does not say so. But 1 Corinthians 15 does not tell you anything about how many trump/trumpet sounds will be heard right?

@Maestro21

Also consider this passage from Paul in addition to the ones we discussed;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


The above verse clearly shows the believers would be very much around when the lawless one (the antichrist) who would defile God's temple would be revealed - Daniel 9 v 27 and Matthew 24 v 15.

Maestro21:


1 Corinthians 15 on its own does not say so. But 1 Corinthians 15 does not tell you anything about how many trump/trumpet sounds will be heard right?

Nope, the emphasis of 1 Corinthians 15 is the last trumpet which would be blown.

Now my humble question is this. If this last trumpet signifies pre-tribulation rapture... then which trumpet is Jesus referring to that would be blown after the greatest distress on earth?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

OkCornel:
@Maestro21

Also consider this passage from Paul in addition to the ones we discussed;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;

1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


The above verse clearly shows the believers would be very much around when the lawless one (the antichrist) who would defile God's temple would be revealed - Daniel 9 v 27 and Matthew 24 v 15.

You are slightly deviating now but do you notice verse 7 says an event has to happen before the man of sin is revealed? The proof is verse 8. Do you see it?

Maestro21:


It is not the same. NIV is one of the poorer translations when it comes especially to eschatology or prophecies in general. Remember if that verse is parallel with 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16, the literal translation is trump.

There is a reason it is key but I can let it pass for now just to show you more.

Let us say that word is Trumpet then what did the first Trumpet signify from 1 Corinthians 15 or from 1 Thessalonians 4?

I put the Amplified Bible version there as well. Abi is that a terrible translation too?

Maestro21:


You are slightly deviating now but do you notice verse 7 says an event has to happen before the man of sin is revealed? The proof is verse 8. Do you see it?

Oh please don't tell us verse 7 and 8 refers to the church, when Paul was actually addressing the church in verse 1 of that same chapter.

That would be contradictory.

OkCornel:


Nope, the emphasis of 1 Corinthians 15 is the last trumpet which would be blown.

Now my humble question is this. If this last trumpet signifies pre-tribulation rapture... then which trumpet is Jesus referring to that would be blown after the greatest distress on earth?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

That is why I said why will Paul not make any reference to the first trump or maybe he did.

Then I showed you another place he talked about the same thing and in that instance he referred to the 2 trump sounds. If there are 2 trump sounds it means the 2nd trump will be the last trump.

Do you get it?

I also told you that Jesus's reference ties in to Revelation 6 and not to what Paul said because the events Jesus described before that final trumpet or 7th trumpet from the last angel is not in sync with what Paul said.

I can show you more.

OkCornel:


I put the Amplified Bible version there as well. Abi is that a terrible translation too?

Did you notice it said "trumpet call" and the trumpet will SOUND?

because trump refers to the sound.

Maestro21:


Did you notice it said "trumpet call" and the trumpet will SOUND?

because trump refers to the sound.

And where does the sound come from?

OkCornel:


Oh please don't tell us verse 7 and 8 refers to the church, when Paul was actually addressing the church in verse 1 of that same chapter.

That would be contradictory.

Of course he was referring to the church or else who was he referring to there?

Don't forget Paul kept showing a dichotomy. He said "we" "ye" in referring to the church and then "them", "they" etc in referring to the world.

Do you see it? Read the verses past verse 9-11 for instance.

Maestro21:


That is why I said why will Paul not make any reference to the first trump or maybe he did.

Then I showed you another place he talked about the same thing and in that instance he referred to the 2 trump sounds. If there are 2 trump sounds it means the 2nd trump will be the last trump.

Do you get it?

I also told you that Jesus's reference ties in to Revelation 6 and not to what Paul said because the events Jesus described before that final trumpet or 7th trumpet from the last angel is not in sync with what Paul said.

I can show you more.

At the bolded, I am not following you. I thought you mentioned 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17 is the same event.

And on a side note, the 7th Trumpet from the last Angel is not the last trumpet.

OkCornel:


And where does the sound come from?

Good. However, Paul then refers to only 2 trump sounds both in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. Do you see it?

Maestro21:


Of course he was referring to the church or else who was he referring to there?

Don't forget Paul kept showing a dichotomy. He said "we" "ye" in referring to the church and then "them", "they" etc in referring to the world.

Do you see it? Read the verses past verse 9-11 for instance.

Thanks for bringing this up. The pronoun "we" clears up a lot of things. It refers to the church in that context.
Now let me ask, going by what Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4, would the believers still be on earth when the lawless one is revealed?

OkCornel:


At the bolded, I am not following you. I thought you mentioned 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 and 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17 is the same event.

And on a side note, the 7th Trumpet from the last Angel is not the last trumpet.

Yes the very same event. So you can use 1 Thessalonians 4 to match 1 Corinthians 15 and it will tie in perfectly without any contradiction.

I'll leave the 7th trumpet part for now as I want the discussion to be cohesive.

Maestro21:


Good. However, Paul then refers to only 2 trump sounds both in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. Do you see it?

Nope, it's one and the same. The last trump where all believers in Christ would be resurrected.

Or do you dispute both scriptures relate to the first resurrection?

OkCornel:


Thanks for bringing this up. The pronoun "we" clears up a lot of things. It refers to the church in that context.
Now let me ask, going by what Paul wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4, would the believers still be on earth when the lawless one is revealed?

No the believers who were ready and prepared for the rapture will not be here. Which is why Paul is admonishing them not to be troubled and to comfort their hearts with what he was revealing.

OkCornel:


Nope, it's one and the same. The last trump where all believers in Christ would be resurrected.

Or do you dispute both scriptures relate to the first resurrection?

I don't want to veer off into the first resurrection because the first resurrection is not the rapture like people think. The rapture is for the CHURCH ALONE.

I said there are 2 trumps mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4. You say no but Paul refers to a last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 to which I asked, when was the first? You have to answer the first to see why the second was called the last.