OkCornel:


You still don't seem to get me. The other trumpet calls are the judgment trumpets in the book of revelation.

If according to you 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 is the last trump which is the pre-trib rapture. What do you make of the trumpet sound in Matthew 24 v 29-31 which comes after the great tribulation?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 and Matthew 24 v 29-31 refers to the last trump, and Matthew 24 makes it clear this will happen after the great tribulation.

But if you disagree and still insist 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 refers to pre-trib rapture, then the trump in that verse is cannot be the last trump...as there will be another trumpet call after that one in Matthew 24

You are the one missing the point. And by not answering the question which is "what was the first trump call?" You may not understand why that call was called the last trump.

According to Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 there will be 2 trump calls during the rapture. The first trump will wake the Christians who are dead. Then the second trump will provoke Christians who are still alive to join them. Period. That second trump is what Paul was referring to as the last trump because there will be only 2 trumps on the rapture.

The Matthew 24 is the trump that will get ANGELS not Jesus to harvest Jewish people and bring them to where Jesus will be. At that same time, when Jesus lands EVERYONE on earth will see him yet in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says the events will be so fast that the human eye won't see it. That should tell you both events are not the same.

Maestro21:


Yes the passage is straight forward.

Verse 2 "day of christ". What is the day of christ?

It is the day of christ Paul says won't happen until some events happen first.

He said first thing is a lot of Christians will drop their faith. Then, the restrainer will be removed and then the man of sin will be revealed before the day of christ happens.

Simple and straightforward. The removal of the restrainer is the rapture.

Kindly provide scriptural references where Paul identified who the restrainer is.

Jokerman:


So raising someone from the dead will be a secret stuff?

Are you being serious?

Jokerman:


God is the restrained (the holy spirit), nit the church. You think heaven is a place to enter by luck?? You don't want to die for God and prove you love him?? The antichrist is coming to test all souls on earth... better be prepared and know your God, and do exploits.

If the holy spirit is being removed then how would Christians continue to be Christians during the tribulation without the holy spirit? How will anyone get saved without the holy spirit if he is the restrainer?

Sorry but the only authority to restrain evil was given to the church during the church age. Luke 10:19 says so. Bring your own verses to prove your stance.

Maestro21:


You are the one missing the point. And by not answering the question which is "what was the first trump call?" You may not understand why that call was called the last trump.

According to Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 there will be 2 trump calls during the rapture. The first trump will wake the Christians who are dead. Then the second trump will provoke Christians who are still alive to join them. Period. That second trump is what Paul was referring to as the last trump because there will be only 2 trumps on the rapture.

The Matthew 24 is the trump that will get ANGELS not Jesus to harvest Jewish people and bring them to where Jesus will be. At that same time, when Jesus lands EVERYONE on earth will see him yet in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul says the events will be so fast that the human eye won't see it. That should tell you both events are not the same.

I don't see anywhere in the scriptures where there is one trump call for the dead believers and another trump call for believers who are alive.
It is a single trump call where Paul mentioned all believers (dead and alive) would be transformed.

Slow down. Now let me ask you this, will the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 be blown before the great tribulation? or after the great tribulation...

OkCornel:


To prove to you the elect Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 are not only Jews, read Isaiah 66 v 18-24;

Isaiah 66 v 18-24;
18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.

21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

This is a millennial reign prophecy.

OkCornel:


Prove it with the scripture that the coming of the Lord is not a literal day.

I can prove it and I will but you have to tell me what the day of christ is from scripture first. Because you just confused it with the rapture.

OkCornel:


Kindly provide scriptural references where Paul identified who the restrainer is.

Can you reconcile Luke 10:19 with Revelation 13:7?

Maestro21:


This is a millennial reign prophecy.

Which will kick off after Jesus gathers his elect in Matthew 24 v 29-31. His elect are not just Jews, but people from all nations and tongues

Maestro21:


Can you reconcile Luke 10:19 with Revelation 13:7?

Both scriptures have nothing to do with Paul. I asked for a scripture where Paul revealed who the restrainer is.

Anyways, let's examine these;

Luke 10 v 19;
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Revelation 13 v 7;
7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

Look at the bolded parts in red in Revelation 13 v 7, and bear in mind...this would happen after the rebellion in Revelation 12 happens.

Same thing Paul mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND OUR BEING GATHERED UNTO HIM, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL THE REBELLION OCCURS and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

OkCornel:


I don't see anywhere in the scriptures where there is one trump call for the dead believers and another trump call for believers who are alive.
It is a single trump call where Paul mentioned all believers (dead and alive) would be transformed.

Slow down. Now let me ask you this, will the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 be blown before the great tribulation? or after the great tribulation...

Before the tribulation. That is even before the Great tribulation.

Now study 1 Corinthians 15:52 slowly. Paul clearly shows that by the last trump all in christ would have changed. Why did he call only trump sound the "last" one? You only say last if there is at the very least a first.

That first Paul says the dead will rise FIRST. That is why I said compare it with 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17. If Paul says they will rise FIRST it means another group will rise SECOND or LAST.

Now go back to 1 Corinthians 15 and see how Paul calls Jesus the 2nd and last Adam. That proves that there was a first Adam right? And Paul is interchangeably using 2nd and last. So Paul is referring to the 2nd trump sound as the last trump sound. QED

OkCornel:


Which will kick off after Jesus gathers his elect in Matthew 24 v 29-31. His elect are not just Jews, but people from all nations and tongues

His elect by the time he comes back is the Jews. They will be gathered from all nations that many fled to. Brethren by Isaiah was always Jews. Just like Daniel referred to his people when he said brethren.

That isn't to say no non jews will be saved at that time. I said at that time the calender is for the jews just like the church age is for predominantly the non jews.

OkCornel:


Both scriptures have nothing to do with Paul. I asked for a scripture where Paul revealed who the restrainer is.

Anyways, let's examine these;

Luke 10 v 19;
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Revelation 13 v 7;
7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

I'll talk about Paul but will Paul's testimony override Jesus's? That is why I had to make sure we were on the same frequency.

In Luke, Jesus is giving the authority to restrain all forms of evil to the church. In Revelation 13, John says the angel told him that the antichrist will have authority over the saints at the time. Remember it says he will have authority to DEFEAT them.

So is Revelation 13 not contradicting Luke 10 if the saints there or God's holy people is referring to the church?

Maestro21:


Before the tribulation. That is even before the Great tribulation.

Now study 1 Corinthians 15:52 slowly. Paul clearly shows that by the last trump all in christ would have changed. Why did he call only trump sound the "last" one? You only say last if there is at the very least a first.

That first Paul says the dead will rise FIRST. That is why I said compare it with 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17. If Paul says they will rise FIRST it means another group will rise SECOND or LAST.

Now go back to 1 Corinthians 15 and see how Paul calls Jesus the 2nd and last Adam. That proves that there was a first Adam right? And Paul is interchangeably using 2nd and last. So Paul is referring to the 2nd trump sound as the last trump sound. QED

Now if you say the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 will be blown before the great tribulation. How can that be the last trump when there will be another trumpet call after the great tribulation hmmm?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



@Maestro21, take note of the bolded fonts in red.

OkCornel:


Both scriptures have nothing to do with Paul. I asked for a scripture where Paul revealed who the restrainer is.

Anyways, let's examine these;

Luke 10 v 19;
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Revelation 13 v 7;
7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

Look at the bolded parts in red in Revelation 13 v 7, and bear in mind...this would happen after the rebellion in Revelation 12 happens.

Same thing Paul mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4;
1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ AND OUR BEING GATHERED UNTO HIM, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, FOR THAT DAY WILL NOT COME UNTIL THE REBELLION OCCURS and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

The word your translation is referring to as rebellion is apostasy. A falling away from the faith. It is not a rebellion against the antichrist. Your translation literally says that the antichrist will only be revealed after the "rebellion" proving to you that the rebellion is not against him.

Look up the Greek for the word it refers to Christians leaving the faith. Simple.

OkCornel:


Now if you say the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52 will be blown before the great tribulation. How can that be the last trump when there will be another trumpet call after the great tribulation hmmm?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.



@Maestro21, take note of the bolded fonts in red.

Because the last trump is the last of the 2 trumps that will be sounded during the rapture which has nothing to do with the trumpet that will be blown when Jesus touches down on earth. That particular trumpet is connected to the 7 judgement trumpets. Jesus coming down is a judgement to the world if you remember.

Maestro21:


The word your translation is referring to as rebellion is apostasy. A fallen away from the faith. It is not a rebellion against the antichrist. Your translation literally says that the antichrist will only be revealed after the "rebellion" proving to you that the rebellion is not against him.

Look up the Greek for the word it refers to Christians leaving the faith. Simple.

The rebellion there refers to the rebellion of the dragon and his angels in Revelation 12. When they are cast from heaven, the beast would be revealed in Revelation 13.

Maestro21:


Because the last trump is the last of the 2 trumps that will be sounded during the rapture which has nothing to do with the trumpet that will be blown when Jesus touches down on earth. That particular trumpet is connected to the 7 judgement trumpets. Jesus coming down is a judgement to the world if you remember.

Lmao, how is it the last trump, when there are other trumps after that?

OkCornel:


The rebellion there refers to the rebellion of the dragon and his angels in Revelation 12. When they are cast from heaven, the beast would be revealed in Revelation 13.

Completely untrue. The word is apostasia. It was used in every context to refer to people forsaking their faith.

1 Thessalonians 4 v 13-17
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52;
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

@Maestro21 where in these scriptures do you see one trumpet call for the dead, and the second trumpet call (your own understanding of last trumpet) for believers who are alive?

From what I can see, especially in the text bolded in red...it is one trumpet call that will wake the dead believers and transform the ones who are alive to meet with Christ.

The last trumpet would be blown in Matthew 24 v 29-31 when Christ comes for the elect all over the world.

OkCornel:


Lmao, how is it the last trump, when there are other trumps after that?

Remember you could not answer what the first trump was, right? Can you see why you cannot answer that? The answer to that will show why Paul contextually referred to the other trump as last. It is literally the same way he called Jesus the 2nd Adam and then later, last. He used last and 2nd interchangeably because he was referring to one topic.

You are the one trying to confuse every mention of trumpet as if it is the same event even when I have shown you in many instances that Matt 24 is not 1 Cor 15.

For the umpteenth time,

In Matthew 24, all eyes see Jesus, he lands on earth, angels do the harvesting, and it was for people alive. In 1 Cor 15, Jesus himself does the harvesting. He is in the clouds not on earth. Only those being raptured see him. 1 Thessalonians 4 says the LORD HIMSELF compared to Angels in Matthew 24.

OkCornel:
1 Thessalonians 4 v 13-17
13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52;
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

@Maestro21 where in these scriptures do you see one trumpet call for the dead, and the second trumpet call (your own understanding of last trumpet) for believers who are alive?

From what I can see, especially in the text bolded in red...it is one trumpet call that will wake the dead believers and transform the ones who are alive to meet with Christ.

The last trumpet would be blown in Matthew 24 v 29-31 when Christ comes for the elect all over the world.

Do you agree that it says a group will rise first?

Let me break it down in simple steps.

Maestro21:


Completely untrue. The word is apostasia. It was used in every context to refer to people forsaking their faith.

Okay, I have shown you the sequence of events in Revelation 12 and 13 clearly demonstrating that the beast would not be revealed until the dragon and his angels rebel and are hurled out from heaven.

But since you disagree, let's examine your view of the rebellion. If you say it's people leaving the faith before the lawless one is revealed, that means only a handful of believers would be "raptured" or there might not even be a church to rapture before the tribulation according to your timeline.

Maestro21:


Do you agree that it says a group will rise first?

Let me break it down in simple steps.

Yes the dead will rise first, then those who are alive will be transformed. All this will happen in one trumpet call.
Not a separate one for the dead, and a separate one for those alive;

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52;
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Maestro21:


Remember you could not answer what the first trump was, right? Can you see why you cannot answer that? The answer to that will show why Paul contextually referred to the other trump as last. It is literally the same way he called Jesus the 2nd Adam and then later, last. He used last and 2nd interchangeably because he was referring to one topic.

You are the one trying to confuse every mention of trumpet as if it is the same event even when I have shown you in many instances that Matt 24 is not 1 Cor 15.

For the umpteenth time,

In Matthew 24, all eyes see Jesus, he lands on earth, angels do the harvesting, and it was for people alive. In 1 Cor 15, Jesus himself does the harvesting. He is in the clouds not on earth. Only those being raptured see him. 1 Thessalonians 4 says the LORD HIMSELF compared to Angels in Matthew 24.

Please and please, show us where exactly in Matthew 24 that Jesus would land on earth, then the angels will gather all the elect to him AFTER HE LANDS ON EARTH

@maestro21

If the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 8 refers to the church, why did Apostle Paul use the pronoun "He" to refer to the restrainer...rather than the usual pronoun "We" when the church is referred to by Paul?


2 Thessalonians 2 v 7
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the ONE who now holds it back will continue to do so till HE is taken out of the way

Maestro21:


I'll talk about Paul but will Paul's testimony override Jesus's? That is why I had to make sure we were on the same frequency.

In Luke, Jesus is giving the authority to restrain all forms of evil to the church. In Revelation 13, John says the angel told him that the antichrist will have authority over the saints at the time. Remember it says he will have authority to DEFEAT them.

So is Revelation 13 not contradicting Luke 10 if the saints there or God's holy people is referring to the church?

And who gave the antichrist this authority?

Maestro21:


His elect by the time he comes back is the Jews. They will be gathered from all nations that many fled to. Brethren by Isaiah was always Jews. Just like Daniel referred to his people when he said brethren.

That isn't to say no non jews will be saved at that time. I said at that time the calender is for the jews just like the church age is for predominantly the non jews.

If his elect are only Jews, how come there are tribulation saints martyred from across all peoples, tongues and nations in Revelation 7 v 9?

Are you telling us there won't be any surviving tribulation saints who are non-Jews He will come for at his second coming? hmmm? Don't they also qualify as the elect? Hmmm?

Maestro21
Further proof that Christ would come for all believers dead and alive after the great tribulation, not before it;
This is Apostle Peter writing to the church!

2 Peter 3 v 10-14;

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him


This is further proof that the church (not just the Jews) will be very much around in the days of the great tribulation, looking forward to the return of Jesus.

If there was a pre-tribulation rapture, what then is the point in Apostle Peter writing to the church to look forward to the coming of Christ when all these destruction would take place? hmmm?

OkCornel:


Okay, I have shown you the sequence of events in Revelation 12 and 13 clearly demonstrating that the beast would not be revealed until the dragon and his angels rebel and are hurled out from heaven.

But since you disagree, let's examine your view of the rebellion. If you say it's people leaving the faith before the lawless one is revealed, that means only a handful of believers would be "raptured" or there might not even be a church to rapture before the tribulation according to your timeline.

Your sequence of events has so many gaps. We can examine it. According to Revelation 12 v 6, the woman (Israel) already fled into the wilderness (Jordan etc) where God was going to take care of her supernaturally for 1260 days or 3.5 years (30 days was a month in John's day). What does that tell you? The antichrist already was revealed 3.5 years earlier. Because the second 3.5 years of Daniel's last week is the beginning of the GREAT tribulation. The ordinary tribulation had commenced 3.5 years earlier. So as you can see, the antichrist had to be revealed on the day the church is raptured.

As for your other question about the number being low etc, you are right. I don't want us to stray too far because this point is a digression, but the first flight of rapture will have few people. That is why Jesus taught us to pray to be counted worthy to join that group. I'm part of it!

Maestro21:


Your sequence of events has so many gaps. We can examine it. According to Revelation 12 v 6, the woman (Israel) already fled into the wilderness (Jordan etc) where God was going to take care of her supernaturally for 1260 days or 3.5 years (30 days was a month in John's day). What does that tell you? The antichrist already was revealed 3.5 years earlier. Because the second 3.5 years of Daniel's last week is the beginning of the GREAT tribulation. The ordinary tribulation had commenced 3.5 years earlier. So as you can see, the antichrist had to be revealed on the day the church is raptured.

As for your other question about the number being low etc, you are right. I don't want us to stray too far because this point is a digression, but the first flight of rapture will have few people. That is why Jesus taught us to pray to be counted worthy to join that group. I'm part of it!

There's no gap in the sequence. All this you typed won't happen until;
1. The dragon and his angels are hurled out of heaven in Revelation 12 (the rebellion)
2. Then the beasts are revealed in Revelation 13.

OkCornel:


Yes the dead will rise first, then those who are alive will be transformed. All this will happen in one trumpet call.
Not a separate one for the dead, and a separate one for those alive;

1 Corinthians 15 v 51-52;
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Now read it slowly, from v 51 Paul says "we will all be changed at the last trumpet call". The emphasis is on all there. In other words, by the time the last (second) trump sound is heard, all of us would have been raptured.

But this part of the verse is missing some details that we can derive from 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17 since the author and overarching theme are the same. In the latter verse, Paul says "actually, the dead in christ will rise first at the sound of a trump".

Now I told you from the beginning that context is key. By that I mean, Paul called the trump that by the time it was sounded everyone had changed the last one and I asked you why anyone will name anything last except of course there was a first. So it is easy to decipher that there had to be at least 2 trump sounds. First and Last or first and second. That is the minimum. Are you following thus far?