OkCornel:


Please and please, show us where exactly in Matthew 24 that Jesus would land on earth, then the angels will gather all the elect to him AFTER HE LANDS ON EARTH

Do we establish Bible truths in isolation? Zechariah 14 v 1-4; Revelation 19v1-20 are parallel events with Matthew 24 around verse 29-31. They show it clearly.

OkCornel:
@maestro21

If the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 8 refers to the church, why did Apostle Paul use the pronoun "He" to refer to the restrainer...rather than the usual pronoun "We" when the church is referred to by Paul?


2 Thessalonians 2 v 7
7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the ONE who now holds it back will continue to do so till HE is taken out of the way

Prophets speak in parables. If you caught v 5 you will see him say he is only reminding them about things he had already told them before. So one way of refreshing people's memories is to restate a fact in coded prophetic language.

That "he" is the body of christ. If Jesus is a he, his body will also be called he.

Pronouns won't work in this instance because Paul did say "We who are alive and remain..." and he certainly knew that he will not be alive so one might ask why he said we when he should have said "those" who are alive and remain...

OkCornel:


And who gave the antichrist this authority?

God.

Maestro21:


Now read it slowly, from v 51 Paul says "we will [b]all [/b]be changed at the last trumpet call". The emphasis is on all there. In other words, by the time the last (second) trump sound is heard, all of us would have been raptured.

But this part of the verse is missing some details that we can derive from 1 Thessalonians 4 v 16-17 since the author and overarching theme are the same. In the latter verse, Paul says "actually, the dead in christ will rise first at the sound of a trump".

Now I told you from the beginning that context is key. By that I mean, Paul called the trump that by the time it was sounded everyone had changed the last one and I asked you why anyone will name anything last except of course there was a first. So it is easy to decipher that there had to be at least 2 trump sounds. First and Last or first and second. That is the minimum. Are you following thus far?

Please where did Paul explicitly mention there will one trumpet call for the dead believers, and another trumpet call for believers who are alive. Paul is quite detailed in his writings, so I would appreciate scriptural references showing one trumpet call for dead believers, then another trumpet call for believers who are alive, not your assumption.

Maestro21:
God.

Good, so based on this your answer...who is the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 7?

OkCornel:


If his elect are only Jews, how come there are tribulation saints martyred from across all peoples, tongues and nations in Revelation 7 v 9?

Are you telling us there won't be any surviving tribulation saints who are non-Jews He will come for at his second coming? hmmm? Don't they also qualify as the elect? Hmmm?

I never said the elect are ONLY Jews. I said they are predominantly jews in the same way the body of christ today is predominantly gentile even though some jews are part of us.

Maestro21:

Prophets speak in parables. If you caught v 5 you will see him say he is only reminding them about things he had already told them before. So one way of refreshing people's memories is to restate a fact in coded prophetic language.

That "he" is the body of christ. If Jesus is a he, his body will also be called he.

Pronouns won't work in this instance because Paul did say "We who are alive and remain..." and he certainly knew that he will not be alive so one might ask why he said we when he should have said "those" who are alive and remain...

How convenient , so the pronoun used by Paul in identifying the restrainer is a parable?

Maestro21:

Do we establish Bible truths in isolation? Zechariah 14 v 1-4; Revelation 19v1-20 are parallel events with Matthew 24 around verse 29-31. They show it clearly.

You are still missing my point, where in Matthew 24 did it mention the gathering of the elect (which 2 Peter 3 v 1-8 clearly identifies not to be Jews only) would happen after Jesus lands on the mount of Olives?

I am after the timing and location of the gathering.

OkCornel:
Maestro21
Further proof that Christ would come for all believers dead and alive after the great tribulation, not before it;
This is Apostle Peter writing to the church!

2 Peter 3 v 10-14;

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him


This is further proof that the church (not just the Jews) will be very much around in the days of the great tribulation, looking forward to the return of Jesus.

If there was a pre-tribulation rapture, what then is the point in Apostle Peter writing to the church to look forward to the coming of Christ when all these destruction would take place? hmmm?

@Maestro21, who was Apostle Peter addressing here?

OkCornel:
Maestro21
Further proof that Christ would come for all believers dead and alive after the great tribulation, not before it;
This is Apostle Peter writing to the church!

2 Peter 3 v 10-14;

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him


This is further proof that the church (not just the Jews) will be very much around in the days of the great tribulation, looking forward to the return of Jesus.

If there was a pre-tribulation rapture, what then is the point in Apostle Peter writing to the church to look forward to the coming of Christ when all these destruction would take place? hmmm?

I have alot to say because you are not answering questions that might help me know exactly where to show you things. For e.g, the melting of the elements and destruction of the world will happen AFTER the millennial reign. Do you see already that you are quoting scriptures out of context?

Maestro21:
I have alot to say because you are not answering questions that might help me know exactly where to show you things. For e.g, the melting of the elements and destruction of the world will happen AFTER the millennial reign. Do you see already that you are quoting scriptures out of context?

Please answer the question. If the day of the Lord would happen after the millennial reign...why is Apostle Peter admonishing the church to be spotless and look forward to that very day if the church would not be around? hmmm?

Why did Apostle Paul also mention that day would not come until the beast is revealed hmmm?

2 Peter 3 v 10-14 and 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 clearly proves the church would very much be around when the great tribulation happens

OkCornel:


There's no gap in the sequence. All this you typed won't happen until;
1. The dragon and his angels are hurled out of heaven in Revelation 12 (the rebellion)
2. Then the beasts are revealed in Revelation 13.

You have everything jumbled. Revelation 12 is a comprehensive vision of signs from the beginning of the story to the end of it. Revelation 13 is parenthetical.

Revelation 12 v 5 is the rapture, v 6 is the first 3.5 years of the tribulation (which means the antichrist is already here since he is the leader of the tribulation). V 7-8 is what spiritually led to the GREAT tribulation or the 2nd 3.5 years. Verse 9 is what will happen. Satan will come himself to dwell in the antichrist, prior to this point the antichrist was being inhabited by another high ranking evil spirit.

Revelation 13 just mentions that the antichrist will head the world as a political leader but that he would also have a religious accomplice.

OkCornel:


Please where did Paul explicitly mention there will one trumpet call for the dead believers, and another trumpet call for believers who are alive. Paul is quite detailed in his writings, so I would appreciate scriptural references showing one trumpet call for dead believers, then another trumpet call for believers who are alive, not your assumption.

I am showing you it translates but you are not computing. When I ask questions to see where to robe you in, you evade them.

Was there one trump? If yes, why did detailed Paul say last trump? There must have at least been a first right?

OkCornel:


Good, so based on this your answer...who is the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 7?

Till he is taken out of the way!!!! Tell me how God is taken out of the way and by whom? I am waiting.

OkCornel:


How convenient , so the pronoun used by Paul in identifying the restrainer is a parable?

Is the body of christ not a "he"?

OkCornel:


You are still missing my point, where in Matthew 24 did it mention the gathering of the elect (which 2 Peter 3 v 1-8 clearly identifies not to be Jews only) would happen after Jesus lands on the mount of Olives?

I am after the timing and location of the gathering.

But I just provided other layers of the story from other writings or don't you know that is what we did to be able to retrace how Jesus actually died?

In the verses I showed did the gathering not happen when he was here on earth?

OkCornel:


@Maestro21, who was Apostle Peter addressing here?

Jewish ( Christians and those he was hoping to win over).

OkCornel:


Please answer the question. If the day of the Lord would happen after the millennial reign...why is Apostle Peter admonishing the church to be spotless and look forward to that very day if the church would not be around? hmmm?

Why did Apostle Paul also mention that day would not come until the beast is revealed hmmm?

2 Peter 3 v 10-14 and 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 clearly proves the church would very much be around when the great tribulation happens

Where did anyone posit that the day of the lord is after the millenial reign?

OkCornel:


Please answer the question. If the day of the Lord would happen after the millennial reign...why is Apostle Peter admonishing the church to be spotless and look forward to that very day if the church would not be around? hmmm?

Why did Apostle Paul also mention that day would not come until the beast is revealed hmmm?

2 Peter 3 v 10-14 and 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 clearly proves the church would very much be around when the great tribulation happens

You are yet to refute the fact that the destruction of the world comes after the millennial reign. How do you think you can then tender the very 2 Peter 3 verses lol

Maestro21:
I have alot to say because you are not answering questions that might help me know exactly where to show you things. For e.g, the melting of the elements and destruction of the world will happen AFTER the millennial reign. Do you see already that you are quoting scriptures out of context?

The day of the Lord, and the second coming of Jesus are the same day. When does Jesus mention He will return?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Maestro21:


Where did anyone posit that the day of the lord is after the millenial reign?

You implied it. Did you notice Apostle Peter was writing about the day of the Lord here? He said the heavens will disappear with a roar...but you're telling us all this would happen after the millennial reign

2 Peter 3 v 10-14;

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

OkCornel:


The day of the Lord, and the second coming of Jesus are the same day. When does Jesus mention He will return?

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

By your definition the day of the lord is the 2nd coming of Christ. I say partly right and partly wrong.

Remember when I said the day of the lord was not a literal day? Zechariah 14 v 7 says so. The day of the Lord or the day of christ starts with the second coming but it continues all through till the new world.

Maestro21:


You are yet to refute the fact that the destruction of the world comes after the millennial reign. How do you think you can then tender the very 2 Peter 3 verses lol

2 Peter 3 and the opening of the 6th seal in Revelation 6 v 12-17 is the same event. The day of the Lord which will happen before the millennial reign;

Revelation 6 v 12-17;
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

OkCornel:


You implied it. Did you notice Apostle Peter was writing about the day of the Lord here? He said the heavens will disappear with a roar...but you're telling us all this would happen after the millennial reign

2 Peter 3 v 10-14;

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.

Prophets can dish out a whole 1000 years of prophecy compressed into few lines. Remember Joel's prophecy that Peter said had begun in Acts 3? Peter said that was the beginning of the last day but in Joel's prophecy, Joel says it like the blood moon etc happens right after the outpouring of the spirit. Prophets talk that way.

Peter was describing all the events that happen during that period called the day of the lord which from my definition above you will see why I am right.

Maestro21:


By your definition the day of the lord is the 2nd coming of Christ. I say partly right and partly wrong.

Remember when I said the day of the lord was not a literal day? Zechariah 14 v 7 says so. The day of the Lord or the day of christ starts with the second coming but it continues all through till the new world.

Lol, so why isn't it called the days of the Lord? rather than the day of the Lord...hmmm

Please provide scriptural references proving that the day of the Lord spans from the second coming of Christ and continues all through till the new world.

OkCornel:


2 Peter 3 and the opening of the 6th seal in Revelation 6 v 12-17 is the same event. The day of the Lord which will happen before the millennial reign;

Revelation 6 v 12-17;
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

The day of wrath is not the day of the lord. The wrath is the father's wrath which the tribulation is one of the consequences. The day of the Lord is the day of the Christ.

Maestro21:


Prophets can dish out a whole 1000 years of prophecy compressed into few lines. Remember Joel's prophecy that Peter said had begun in Acts 3? Peter said that was the beginning of the last day but in Joel's prophecy, Joel says it like the blood moon etc happens right after the outpouring of the spirit. Prophets talk that way.

Peter was describing all the events that happen during that period called the day of the lord which from my definition above you will see why I am right.

Sorry, please are you telling us that the day of the Lord happened on the Pentecost?

OkCornel:


2 Peter 3 and the opening of the 6th seal in Revelation 6 v 12-17 is the same event. The day of the Lord which will happen before the millennial reign;

Revelation 6 v 12-17;
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Also, false. Revelation 6 v 12-17 is part of the great tribulation which is before the millennial reign which is before the destruction of the world and melting of the elements.

OkCornel:


Lol, so why isn't it called the days of the Lord? rather than the day of the Lord...hmmm

Please provide scriptural references proving that the day of the Lord spans from the second coming of Christ and continues all through till the new world.

Start with Zechariah 14 v 7 that I have already shown you clearly. The day is called day because it is a continuous day. There is no night from when Jesus lands till the new world.

Maestro21:


The day of wrath is not the day of the lord. The wrath is the father's wrath which the tribulation is one of the consequences. The day of the Lord is the day of the Christ.

Look at the common themes that shows you both are the same;

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Revelation 6 v 12-17;
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”





It's the same day. The sun goes dark, and the moon turns to blood

OkCornel:


Sorry, please are you telling us that the day of the Lord happened on the Pentecost?

Nobody related Pentecost to the day of the Lord. It appears you don't know the references. Joel 2:28-31 says the spirit is poured, great stuff will happen, the sun will be darkened, moon will be blooded etc. Peter says verse 28 happened Acts 3 yet verse 31 has to happen 2000+ years after verse 28. (According to John)

So it is not new language where a Prophet (Peter) describes an event that will occur during the day of the Lord even though it will be at least 1000 years after the second coming.

Do you understand?

OkCornel:


Look at the common themes that shows you both are the same;

Matthew 24 v 29-31;
29 Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Revelation 6 v 12-17;
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.
14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”





It's the same day. The sun goes dark, and the moon turns to blood

Don't you see that those events happen before Jesus comes down for his second coming? That is what those verses are saying. Revelation 19 says it again parenthetically. lol

Remember day of the Lord starts from the beginning of his second coming but it continues till after the millennial reign.