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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine (4162 Views)
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Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:00pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel:Do we establish Bible truths in isolation? Zechariah 14 v 1-4; Revelation 19v1-20 are parallel events with Matthew 24 around verse 29-31. They show it clearly. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:06pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel:Prophets speak in parables. If you caught v 5 you will see him say he is only reminding them about things he had already told them before. So one way of refreshing people's memories is to restate a fact in coded prophetic language. That "he" is the body of christ. If Jesus is a he, his body will also be called he. Pronouns won't work in this instance because Paul did say "We who are alive and remain..." and he certainly knew that he will not be alive so one might ask why he said we when he should have said "those" who are alive and remain... |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:07pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel:God. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by OkCornel(m): 11:07pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
Maestro21: Please where did Paul explicitly mention there will one trumpet call for the dead believers, and another trumpet call for believers who are alive. Paul is quite detailed in his writings, so I would appreciate scriptural references showing one trumpet call for dead believers, then another trumpet call for believers who are alive, not your assumption. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by OkCornel(m): 11:08pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
Maestro21: Good, so based on this your answer...who is the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 7? 1 Like |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:08pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: I never said the elect are ONLY Jews. I said they are predominantly jews in the same way the body of christ today is predominantly gentile even though some jews are part of us. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by OkCornel(m): 11:09pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
Maestro21: How convenient ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by OkCornel(m): 11:11pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
Maestro21: You are still missing my point, where in Matthew 24 did it mention the gathering of the elect (which 2 Peter 3 v 1-8 clearly identifies not to be Jews only) would happen after Jesus lands on the mount of Olives? I am after the timing and location of the gathering. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by OkCornel(m): 11:12pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: @Maestro21, who was Apostle Peter addressing here? |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:14pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel:I have alot to say because you are not answering questions that might help me know exactly where to show you things. For e.g, the melting of the elements and destruction of the world will happen AFTER the millennial reign. Do you see already that you are quoting scriptures out of context? |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by OkCornel(m): 11:20pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
Maestro21: Please answer the question. If the day of the Lord would happen after the millennial reign...why is Apostle Peter admonishing the church to be spotless and look forward to that very day if the church would not be around? hmmm? Why did Apostle Paul also mention that day would not come until the beast is revealed hmmm? 2 Peter 3 v 10-14 and 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 clearly proves the church would very much be around when the great tribulation happens |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:21pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel:You have everything jumbled. Revelation 12 is a comprehensive vision of signs from the beginning of the story to the end of it. Revelation 13 is parenthetical. Revelation 12 v 5 is the rapture, v 6 is the first 3.5 years of the tribulation (which means the antichrist is already here since he is the leader of the tribulation). V 7-8 is what spiritually led to the GREAT tribulation or the 2nd 3.5 years. Verse 9 is what will happen. Satan will come himself to dwell in the antichrist, prior to this point the antichrist was being inhabited by another high ranking evil spirit. Revelation 13 just mentions that the antichrist will head the world as a political leader but that he would also have a religious accomplice. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:24pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel:I am showing you it translates but you are not computing. When I ask questions to see where to robe you in, you evade them. Was there one trump? If yes, why did detailed Paul say last trump? There must have at least been a first right? |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:25pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: Till he is taken out of the way!!!! Tell me how God is taken out of the way and by whom? I am waiting. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:25pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: Is the body of christ not a "he"? |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:27pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: But I just provided other layers of the story from other writings or don't you know that is what we did to be able to retrace how Jesus actually died? In the verses I showed did the gathering not happen when he was here on earth? |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:28pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: Jewish ( Christians and those he was hoping to win over). |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:29pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: Where did anyone posit that the day of the lord is after the millenial reign? |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:31pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: You are yet to refute the fact that the destruction of the world comes after the millennial reign. How do you think you can then tender the very 2 Peter 3 verses lol |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by OkCornel(m): 11:33pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
Maestro21: The day of the Lord, and the second coming of Jesus are the same day. When does Jesus mention He will return? Matthew 24 v 29-31; 29 “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by OkCornel(m): 11:37pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
Maestro21: You implied it. Did you notice Apostle Peter was writing about the day of the Lord here? He said the heavens will disappear with a roar...but you're telling us all this would happen after the millennial reign 2 Peter 3 v 10-14; 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells. 14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:40pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: By your definition the day of the lord is the 2nd coming of Christ. I say partly right and partly wrong. Remember when I said the day of the lord was not a literal day? Zechariah 14 v 7 says so. The day of the Lord or the day of christ starts with the second coming but it continues all through till the new world. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by OkCornel(m): 11:41pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
Maestro21: 2 Peter 3 and the opening of the 6th seal in Revelation 6 v 12-17 is the same event. The day of the Lord which will happen before the millennial reign; Revelation 6 v 12-17; 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:43pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: Prophets can dish out a whole 1000 years of prophecy compressed into few lines. Remember Joel's prophecy that Peter said had begun in Acts 3? Peter said that was the beginning of the last day but in Joel's prophecy, Joel says it like the blood moon etc happens right after the outpouring of the spirit. Prophets talk that way. Peter was describing all the events that happen during that period called the day of the lord which from my definition above you will see why I am right. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by OkCornel(m): 11:43pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
Maestro21: Lol, so why isn't it called the days of the Lord? rather than the day of the Lord...hmmm ![]() Please provide scriptural references proving that the day of the Lord spans from the second coming of Christ and continues all through till the new world. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:45pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: The day of wrath is not the day of the lord. The wrath is the father's wrath which the tribulation is one of the consequences. The day of the Lord is the day of the Christ. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by OkCornel(m): 11:47pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
Maestro21: Sorry, please are you telling us that the day of the Lord happened on the Pentecost? ![]() |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:48pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: Also, false. Revelation 6 v 12-17 is part of the great tribulation which is before the millennial reign which is before the destruction of the world and melting of the elements. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:50pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: Start with Zechariah 14 v 7 that I have already shown you clearly. The day is called day because it is a continuous day. There is no night from when Jesus lands till the new world. |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by OkCornel(m): 11:53pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
Maestro21: Look at the common themes that shows you both are the same; Matthew 24 v 29-31; 29 Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with A LOUD TRUMPET CALL, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Revelation 6 v 12-17; 12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. 15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” It's the same day. The sun goes dark, and the moon turns to blood |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:55pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: Nobody related Pentecost to the day of the Lord. It appears you don't know the references. Joel 2:28-31 says the spirit is poured, great stuff will happen, the sun will be darkened, moon will be blooded etc. Peter says verse 28 happened Acts 3 yet verse 31 has to happen 2000+ years after verse 28. (According to John) So it is not new language where a Prophet (Peter) describes an event that will occur during the day of the Lord even though it will be at least 1000 years after the second coming. Do you understand? |
Re: Issues To Ponder On The Pretrib Rapture Doctrine by Maestro21: 11:57pm On Apr 23, 2022 |
OkCornel: Don't you see that those events happen before Jesus comes down for his second coming? That is what those verses are saying. Revelation 19 says it again parenthetically. lol Remember day of the Lord starts from the beginning of his second coming but it continues till after the millennial reign. |
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