2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way

Did Paul mention this restrainer would be taken out of the way by another entity? @maestro21

Infact, @ Maestro21,

Let me bring the direct translation of the greek bible to prove the restrainer would move of its own accord;

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm

See how it translates directly from Greek...further proving that;
1. The restrainer acts of its own accord and;
2. The church will still be very much around when the restrainer goes;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only [there is] the [one] restraining [it] at present until out of [the] midst he might be [gone]

OkCornel:


Matthew 24 v 29-31 and Revelation 6 v 12-17 is the same event. The day of the Lord, which will happen after the great tribulation.

Unless you are telling us the sun will be darkened, the moon will turn to blood and stars will fall from heaven twice?

What twice do you keep talking about when you are yet to prove you know what I am actually saying.

Verse 29 to 31 are not in one passage of time. Luke 21:25-26 prove it. Even studying Revelation 6 you should know that each seal was released in a different passage of time that has to be years in reality. Lol

Did Joel 2 v 31 not say this was before the day of the Lord?

OkCornel:


God ultimately is the restrainer, as He has not handed authority over to the beast to rule.
Where does the scripture state the restrainer has to be removed by another entity?

Verse 7 of 2 Thess 2?

OkCornel:
2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way

Did Paul mention this restrainer would be taken out of the way by another entity? @maestro21

He that withholds will do so till he be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.

Maestro21:


How are you missing it this badly.

Immediately after the 3.5 years is the great tribulation, which is when I say verse 29 happens (in a period of time). That period of time is captured in Revelation 6:12-16 as well as Luke 21:25

Is that clear enough?

Lol, but you earlier said these are different events, that Revelation 6 v 12-17 is the day of wrath and the Matthew 24 v 29-31 is the day of the Lord

Maestro21:


He that withholds will do so till he be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY.

Please read the translation directly from the Greek Bible;

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm

2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only [there is] the [one] restraining [it] at present until out of [the] midst he might be [gone]

OkCornel:
Infact, @ Maestro21,

Let me bring the direct translation of the greek bible to prove the restrainer would move of its own accord;

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm

See how it translates directly from Greek...further proving that;
1. The restrainer acts of its own accord and;
2. The church will still be very much around when the restrainer goes;

2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only [there is] the [one] restraining [it] at present until out of [the] midst he might be [gone]

This is quite unsophisticated. Do you see a V-ASM-3S in the morphology column of the parallel Greek?

It means: verb, active, singular masculine 3rd person and superlative.

Virtually screaming that it is not passive and the action is carried out on the subject. That is why KJV says till he is taking out of the way. The translators knew what the language implied.

Maestro21:


What twice do you keep talking about when you are yet to prove you know what I am actually saying.

Verse 29 to 31 are not in one passage of time. Luke 21:25-26 prove it. Even studying Revelation 6 you should know that each seal was released in a different passage of time that has to be years in reality. Lol

Did Joel 2 v 31 not say this was before the day of the Lord?

You mentioned the day of wrath: Revelation 6 v 12-17 is not the day of the Lord.

I am pointing your attention to the common themes (Sun going dark, moon turning to blood, stars falling from the sky) in Revelation 6 v 12-17, Matthew 24 v 29-31. They are the same event, the day of the Lord.

OkCornel:


You mentioned the day of wrath: Revelation 6 v 12-17 is not the day of the Lord.

I am pointing your attention to the common themes (Sun going dark, moon turning to blood, stars falling from the sky) in Revelation 6 v 12-17, Matthew 24 v 29-31. They are the same event, the day of the Lord.

I said the day of wrath is the father's wrath. Part of his wrath is allowing of the antichrist to reign; tribulation etc. This is NOT the same with the day of christ or the lord.

The day of wrath happens before the day of the Lord like Joel 2 v 31 says.

OkCornel:


You mentioned the day of wrath: Revelation 6 v 12-17 is not the day of the Lord.

I am pointing your attention to the common themes (Sun going dark, moon turning to blood, stars falling from the sky) in Revelation 6 v 12-17, Matthew 24 v 29-31. They are the same event, the day of the Lord.

Revelation 6 v 12 is not the day of wrath. That "day" of wrath is the whole judgement of God the father. So Revelation 6 from verse 1 is already the beginning of the wrath. In actual fact the beginning starts with the rapture of the church.

Maestro21:


This is quite unsophisticated. Do you see a V-ASM-3S in the morphology column of the parallel Greek?

It means: verb, active, singular masculine 3rd person and superlative.

Virtually screaming that it is not passive and the action is carried out on the subject. That is why KJV says till he is taking out of the way. The translators knew what the language implied.

UNTIL OUT OF THE MIDST, HE MIGHT BE GONE...is an action carried out on the subject...rather than by the subject?

Haba!!!

Maestro21:


I said the day of wrath is the father's wrath. Part of his wrath is allowing of the antichrist to reign; tribulation etc. This is NOT the same with the day of christ or the lord.

The day of wrath happens before the day of the Lord like Joel 2 v 31 says.

So on the day of wrath, the sun goes dark...the moon turns to blood, and the stars fall from heaven. But this day is different from;
The day of the Lord where the sun also goes dark...the moon turns to blood and the stars also fall from heaven?

Maestro21:


This is quite unsophisticated. Do you see a V-ASM-3S in the morphology column of the parallel Greek?

It means: verb, active, singular masculine 3rd person and superlative.

Virtually screaming that it is not passive and the action is carried out on the subject. That is why KJV says till he is taking out of the way. The translators knew what the language implied.

Per the bolded, you've got your understanding of passive and active mixed up. Check the dictionary and confirm what active means.

Active means the action is carried out by the subject. Passive means, the action is being carried out on the subject. This is basic grammar nau...

Active: denoting a voice of verbs in which the subject is typically the person or thing performing the action and which can take a direct object
Passive: denoting a voice of verbs in which the subject undergoes the action of the verb

Source: Oxford Dictionary


In summary V-ASM-3S shows it's an active action i.e. the restrainer acts of its own accord.

Maestro21:


This is quite unsophisticated. Do you see a V-ASM-3S in the morphology column of the parallel Greek?

It means: verb, active, singular masculine 3rd person and superlative.

Virtually screaming that it is not passive and the action is carried out on the subject. That is why KJV says till he is taking out of the way. The translators knew what the language implied.

Infact, more evidence from the morphology to prove to you that the restrainer is not the church

If you put your cursor over the V-ASM-3S morphology, this is what it means;

Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Middle - 3rd Person Singular.

3rd Person Singular means;
A grammatical category of pronouns and verbs used when referring to objects or individuals other than the speaker or his or her addressee(s)

Going by the above definition, the restrainer Paul was talking about has nothing to do with the church (i.e. the people Paul was addressing his letter to)

OkCornel:


UNTIL OUT OF THE MIDST, HE MIGHT BE GONE...is an action carried out on the subject...rather than by the subject?

Haba!!!

Relax the word of God is easy to understand. Care to explain away the word "withold" from the verse before it so you would understand it better? Can there be a withholding by one individual?

OkCornel:


So on the day of wrath, the sun goes dark...the moon turns to blood, and the stars fall from heaven. But this day is different from;
The day of the Lord where the sun also goes dark...the moon turns to blood and the stars also fall from heaven?

I wonder why you keep confusing yourself intentionally. Are you seeking truth or just trying to defend your own position?

Nobody told you that the day of the lord involves the sun going dark etc. Those happen during the tribulation particularly in the GREAT tribulation phase. The day of the lord starts at the end of the tribulation. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

OkCornel:


Per the bolded, you've got your understanding of passive and active mixed up. Check the dictionary and confirm what active means.

Active means the action is carried out by the subject. Passive means, the action is being carried out on the subject. This is basic grammar nau...

Active: denoting a voice of verbs in which the subject is typically the person or thing performing the action and which can take a direct object
Passive: denoting a voice of verbs in which the subject undergoes the action of the verb

Source: Oxford Dictionary


In summary V-ASM-3S shows it's an active action i.e. the restrainer acts of its own accord.

Let me show you easily why this is patently false logic. Because the context says that a "he" is witholding the antichrist from being revealed. Verse 7 now says that witholder has to be removed.

Think of it, if God is living the midst by the transliteration you are so fixated on, ask yourself who God is in the midst of? You did not quite factor that right?

OkCornel:


Infact, more evidence from the morphology to prove to you that the restrainer is not the church

If you put your cursor over the V-ASM-3S morphology, this is what it means;

Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Middle - 3rd Person Singular.

3rd Person Singular means;
A grammatical category of pronouns and verbs used when referring to objects or individuals other than the speaker or his or her addressee(s)

Going by the above definition, the restrainer Paul was talking about has nothing to do with the church (i.e. the people Paul was addressing his letter to)

I told you earlier that this interpretation is weak and off tangent. Paul did also say "we" yet he is clearly not part of the "we" that will partake of the actions still being described in the same context.

Who is God in the midst of and show another verse like I have done where God is restraining evil in the world. It is not hard to buttress Bible arguments with scripture right? I tender Luke 10:19. Let us examine yours.

Maestro21:


Let me show you easily why this is patently false logic. Because the context says that a "he" is witholding the antichrist from being revealed. Verse 7 now says that witholder has to be removed.

Think of it, if God is living the midst by the transliteration you are so fixated on, ask yourself who God is in the midst of? You did not quite factor that right?

Again, I've asked you...from the direct interpretation from Greek to English, where does it show the restrainer is removed by another entity?

Read it again;

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm
2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only [there is] the [one] restraining [it] at present until out of [the] midst he might be [gone]

Simply put, the above verse states the one who restrains will continue to do so, until out of your midst, he is gone.
Remember the V-ASM-3S morphology? the restrainer acts of its own accord, not according to the will of another person.

But if you dispute with the morphology, please prove otherwise

I have more verses.

Matthew 5 v 13 shows who is preserving the world.

If God is leaving the scene, he is leaving it to go where? You can't choose when to be literal within a sentence and then be figurative within that same sentence.

Maestro21:


I told you earlier that this interpretation is weak and off tangent. Paul did also say "we" yet he is clearly not part of the "we" that will partake of the actions still being described in the same context.

Who is God in the midst of and show another verse like I have done where God is restraining evil in the world. It is not hard to buttress Bible arguments with scripture right? I tender Luke 10:19. Let us examine yours.

Simply put, God is the restrainer, because He is the one who will eventually hand authority over to the beast as you earlier mentioned.
Till then, the beast can't do nothing

OkCornel:


Again, I've asked you...from the direct interpretation from Greek to English, where does it show the restrainer is removed by another entity?

Read it again;

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm
2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only [there is] the [one] restraining [it] at present until out of [the] midst he might be [gone]

Simply put, the above verse states the one who restrains will continue to do so, until out of your midst, he is gone.
Remember the V-ASM-3S morphology? the restrainer acts of its own accord, not according to the will of another person.

But if you dispute with the morphology, please prove otherwise

Okay, maybe this will help. The restrainer will go out of whose midst?

Maestro21:
I have more verses.

Matthew 5 v 13 shows who is preserving the world.

If God is leaving the scene, he is leaving it to go where? You can't choose when to be literal within a sentence and then be figurative within that same sentence.

Oh really?

Please remind me who was literal with 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 with the pronoun used to identify the church...but suddenly went figurative with the pronoun used to identify the restrainer

Maestro21:


Okay, maybe this will help. The restrainer will go out of whose midst?

of the believers

OkCornel:


Simply put, God is the restrainer, because He is the one who will eventually hand authority over to the beast as you earlier mentioned.
Till then, the beast can't do nothing

The transliteration we were dealing with said to leave the midst of...you cannot then choose to interpret it as handing over authority when you tried to define the word in its literal sense of moving out of the way by himself.

Don't forget to connect to witholding. Withold has a literal meaning. I am waiting.

@maestro21

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm

2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only [there is] the [one] restraining [it] at present until out of [the] midst he might be [gone]

Oya please tell us...who is the "midst" in the context of the verse above?

OkCornel:


Oh really?

Please remind me who was literal with 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1-4 with the pronoun used to identify the church...but suddenly went figurative with the pronoun used to identify the restrainer

How did I become literal with the pronoun regarding the church and then switch up for the restrainer when I have maintained that the restrainer is the body of christ in which Jesus is the head. Hahaha

OkCornel:


of the believers

God will leave the midst of the believers? In what part of verses 6 and 7 were believers mentioned? Haha

Maestro21:


The transliteration we were dealing with said to leave the midst of...you cannot then choose to interpret it as handing over authority when you tried to define the word in its literal sense of moving out of the way by himself.

Don't forget to connect to witholding. Withold has a literal meaning. I am waiting.

You still don't get it?
The beast is still restrained because God has not handed authority over to it to rule the world. How difficult is this to comprehend?

OkCornel:
@maestro21

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm

2 Thessalonians 2 v 7;
The for mystery already is working of lawlessness only [there is] the [one] restraining [it] at present until out of [the] midst he might be [gone]

Oya please tell us...who is the "midst" in the context of the verse above?

Is this your admission that God is not in the midst of anything? Good.

There is only one group that will leave in the midst of the works of lawlessness in the world- the church - the body of christ. Easy.

Maestro21:


How did I become literal with the pronoun regarding the church and then switch up for the restrainer when I have maintained that the restrainer is the body of christ in which Jesus is the head. Hahaha

Have you forgotten when you mentioned the "we" Paul used in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 1 refers to the church? but the "he" used in identifying the restrainer...you suddenly remember Paul was using "prophetic language" to mean "he" also refers to the church?

Please where in your study of English Language is a singular pronoun such as "he" used to identify a collective group of people? Bros?