Maestro21:


After. Just like Jesus said.

Remember, Noah/Lot (righteous men), removed from the way (rapture), wrath/judgements (tribulation) before Jesus comes (2nd coming).

In Matthew 24 v 38-39;

Was Noah and his family the one taken? or the one left behind...

Matthew 24 v 37-39;
37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

OkCornel:


Bros, my question is very simple. Have you confirmed the morphology V-ASM-3S to mean "Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Middle - 3rd Person Singular? Yes or No

You see, the beautiful thing about Paul's writing is...when he uses symbols or allegories...he gives an interpretation of what those symbols mean to his audience.

For example, in Galatians 4 v 22-31 where he compared the old and new covenant to Hagar and Sarah.

Now please, show us where in any of Paul's letters' he identified the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 7 as the church. Or where Paul used the pronoun "he" to address the church. Patiently waiting

How about you show anywhere he mentioned the restrainer to be God? I have mentioned 2 verses to that effect and I have more even from Paul but you have made a claim and the burden is on you to prove it.

Because I am a good sport, Ephesians 6:11-16 is another place Paul shows who is delegated to restrain evil and the wicked one. Now let us see you do same in the church age. Thanks

OkCornel:


Bros, my question is simple. In Matthew 24 v 36-41 and Luke 17 v 26-30; who are the ones taken? and who are the ones left behind?

I can answer your question. I just want you to know that is not the rapture. That is all.

The people being taken are Jews when the antichrist and his army will match towards Jerusalem to tread upon it. That is why Jesus said those in that area should flee the very moment they see the antichrist desecrate the temple. They should also pray that it is not winter because it will make running away difficult

OkCornel:


Bros, my question is very simple. Have you confirmed the morphology V-ASM-3S to mean "Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Middle - 3rd Person Singular? Yes or No

You see, the beautiful thing about Paul's writing is...when he uses symbols or allegories...he gives an interpretation of what those symbols mean to his audience.

For example, in Galatians 4 v 22-31 where he compared the old and new covenant to Hagar and Sarah.

Now please, show us where in any of Paul's letters' he identified the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 v 7 as the church. Or where Paul used the pronoun "he" to address the church. Patiently waiting

By the way, what pronoun will be apposite for the church? Will the body have a different pronoun than the head?

OkCornel:


In Matthew 24 v 38-39;

Was Noah and his family the one taken? or the one left behind...

Matthew 24 v 37-39;
37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Stop this strawman type argument please. The flood did not take people away. They died. They perished. Noah and his family were lifted into safety courtesy of being in the ark.

That is besides the point even. The flood did not start until Noah and his family were safely tucked into the ark. Noah had to be removed from the scene before the judgment could begin. Jesus said the period before his coming will be the same.

OkCornel:


In Matthew 24 v 38-39;

Was Noah and his family the one taken? or the one left behind...

Matthew 24 v 37-39;
37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Hope you know this verse is not saying Noah did not know what would happen? It is the people who did not listen to Noah who did not know. They were the ones left behind to perish. FYI

Maestro21:


Do you know what double reference is when it comes to prophecies? I am actually surprised that I need to write everything out.

Yes, Jesus was referring to a church in Philadelphia but that church in Philadelphia also represents a period in the church age or a generation within the church age. Come on now. Was that church supposed to endure a literal 'hour' of tribulation especially when that tribulation was for the whole world? Jesus clearly shows that a generation in the church will be kept from the tribulation that will engulf the whole world. How else will that church be kept from an event except that they won't participate in it?

Per the bolded, let the Bible text speak for itself (exegesis) rather than your eisegesis. Read Revelation 1 v 10-11. Jesus directed those letters to be written to seven literal churches existing in Asia minor at the time;

Revelation 1 v 10-11;
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

It's from Revelation 4 v 1 Apostle John began to write about future events;

Revelation 4 v 1;
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter

Maestro21:

Don't forget Revelation 13:7-8 works against you fully because if the holy people then is the church they will not only participate but be overcome by the antichrist.

Remember I asked you before, what do you call a group of people who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus? These people are the church.

John used exactly the same words to identify himself in Revelation 1 v 1-2;
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

The dragon will make war against the church, which John used exactly the same words to describe in Revelation 12 v 17;
17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Maestro21:

Next, your interpretation of a little segment of Isaiah 26:19-20 is funny don't you think? Especially when the word 'your' or 'thy' was only inserted by the translators to help with meaning. You can check the Hebrew for this.

The verse could very well read, come my people enter into chambers ...hide as it were for a little while until the indignation (God's wrath) be overpast.

This should show you prophetically that some people will be removed from the scene during the wrath that will come upon the world. Isaiah says it was for a little time because those same people are going to come back with Jesus. Easy.

Let the text speak for itself. Did Isaiah mention the chambers people should hide in is located in heaven?

Maestro21:


Stop this strawman type argument please. The flood did not take people away. They died. They perished. Noah and his family were lifted into safety courtesy of being in the ark.

That is besides the point even. The flood did not start until Noah and his family were safely tucked into the ark. Noah had to be removed from the scene before the judgment could begin. Jesus said the period before his coming will be the same.

Lol, I am simply letting the words of Jesus speak for itself. Who did Jesus say was taken away in the days of Noah? Let me use KJV version for you sef;

Matthew 24 v 38-41;
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Dear Maestro21, going by the above verses...as in the days of Noah, who shall be taken? and who shall be left?

OkCornel:


Per the bolded, let the Bible text speak for itself (exegesis) rather than your eisegesis. Read Revelation 1 v 10-11. Jesus directed those letters to be written to seven literal churches existing in Asia minor at the time;

Revelation 1 v 10-11;
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

It's from Revelation 4 v 1 Apostle John began to write about future events;

Revelation 4 v 1;
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter



Remember I asked you before, what do you call a group of people who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus? These people are the church.

John used exactly the same words to identify himself in Revelation 1 v 1-2;
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

The dragon will make war against the church, which John used exactly the same words to describe in Revelation 12 v 17;
17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.



Let the text speak for itself. Did Isaiah mention the chambers people should hide in is located in heaven?

So that is how double references work. A prophecy can be declared about an event or a person in the literal sense and then also refer to a futuristic event. That is why a Bible student has to be careful in studying prophecies. Or else, tell us about the tribulation that was to take over the whole world?

As for keeping the commandments of God and testimony of Jesus. I already told you, this is no different than how you tried to define "elect". I told you during the church age that definition holds true for the definition of the church but the rapture will end that church age.

The people at the time who will now believe in God's word and in Jesus Christ were simply referred to as saints or God's holy people. Both words that were used to define Jews from the OT already before the church age.

How did I prove it to you? Jesus told the church that we would have authority over ALL the powers of the devil himself but the saints in Revelation 13 v 7-8 the devil not only has power over them but will overcome them.

You will have the most difficult time in the word trying to reconcile the 2. Except that the saints in the tribulation are not the church. I showed you more references. Paul says Jesus washed the church himself and gave us robes of righteousness however John says those tribulation saints did it by themselves. Can you reconcile it?

Maestro21:

I can answer your question. I just want you to know that is not the rapture. That is all.

The people being taken are Jews when the antichrist and his army will match towards Jerusalem to tread upon it. That is why Jesus said those in that area should flee the very moment they see the antichrist desecrate the temple. They should also pray that it is not winter because it will make running away difficult

So going by this your analogy, the great tribulation happened in 70AD?

Matthew 24 v 15-22;
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

OkCornel:


Lol, I am simply letting the words of Jesus speak for itself. Who did Jesus say was taken away in the days of Noah? Let me use KJV version for you sef;

Matthew 24 v 38-41;
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Dear Maestro21, going by the above verses...as in the days of Noah, who shall be taken? and who shall be left?

The "they" that were eating and drinking are the group from which people were taken away.

Is that too hard or the 'they' was not Jesus's words? Lol

Maestro21:


So that is how double references work. A prophecy can be declared about an event or a person in the literal sense and then also refer to a futuristic event. That is why a Bible student has to be careful in studying prophecies. Or else, tell us about the tribulation that was to take over the whole world?

As for keeping the commandments of God and testimony of Jesus. I already told you, this is no different than how you tried to define "elect". I told you during the church age that definition holds true for the definition of the church but the rapture will end that church age.

The people at the time who will now believe in God's word and in Jesus Christ were simply referred to as saints or God's holy people. Both words that were used to define Jews from the OT already before the church age.

How did I prove it to you? Jesus told the church that we would have authority over ALL the powers of the devil himself but the saints in Revelation 13 v 7-8 the devil not only has power over them but will overcome them.

You will have the most difficult time in the word trying to reconcile the 2. Except that the saints in the tribulation are not the church. I showed you more references. Paul says Jesus washed the church himself and gave us robes of righteousness however John says those tribulation saints did it by themselves. Can you reconcile it?

Tsk... tsk... tsk...

Even Apostle Peter used similar words to address faithful believers in the church - before the great tribulation;

1 Peter 2 v 9-10;
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called.

Same thing Apostle Paul mentioned in Romans 1 v 7;
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

OkCornel:


So going by this your analogy, the great tribulation happened in 70AD?

Matthew 24 v 15-22;
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

This is another example of a double reference. Study Luke 21 to get the actual chronology. Luke says so in verse 12. See verse 20-27. Take note of verse 24 which he connects to events preceding the 2nd coming of Jesus. Jesus did not come again 70AD did he?

Now go to Revelation 11 vs 2. Remember this is futuristic yet you see a new temple and a Jerusalem that is going to be treaded upon for 42 months (3.5 years) that matches perfectly with what Jesus said.

I can show you at least 3 more double references from the OT that people felt was only literal till Jesus came to show that some of it was yet to be fulfilled. The desecration of the temple by before Jesus was born on earth is another example.

Maestro21:


The "they" that were eating and drinking are the group from which people were taken away.

Is that too hard or the 'they' was not Jesus's words? Lol

Very good, now we are making progress. The ones taken away are the wicked to face the wrath of the lamb on the day of the Lord

Now let's revisit our timelines in Matthew 24, since the chapter talks about the return of the Son of Man;

Matthew 24 v 29-31 & 36-42;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


@maestro21, where does the "rapture" fit into this timeline?

Verse 29 and 42 should give you a hint already. Remember, this discussion was between Jesus and his disciples who already believed in him (Matthew 24 v 3)

OkCornel:


Tsk... tsk... tsk...

Even Apostle Peter used similar words to address faithful believers in the church - before the great tribulation;

1 Peter 2 v 9-10;
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called.

Same thing Apostle Paul mentioned in Romans 1 v 7;
To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is my point exactly. That words like God's elect, saints, holy people is for the church today because the Jews lost out (Matthew 21:43). They used to be it before but they rejected Jesus and lost it. By the time the church age ends God will focus on them again. That is why John could not call those people in Revelation 13 the church. Is that hard to understand?

OkCornel:


Very good, now we are making progress. The ones taken away are the wicked to face the wrath of the lamb on the day of the Lord

Now let's revisit our timelines in Matthew 24, since the chapter talks about the return of the Son of Man;

Matthew 24 v 29-31 & 36-42;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


@maestro21, where does the "rapture" fit into this timeline?

Please read slowly. Noah preached to people who did not listen. They went on eating, drinking etc. Then the day came. Noah was safely in the ark and the flood killed every one else that was not in the ark.

Jesus said his coming will be similar. People will not believe in it and think life will continue as is. But they will be surprised to experience the worst things ever.

I told you that just like in Noah's time, the righteous people will be safe in a place that the worst things coming won't get to them.

Is that simple enough?

OkCornel:


Very good, now we are making progress. The ones taken away are the wicked to face the wrath of the lamb on the day of the Lord

Now let's revisit our timelines in Matthew 24, since the chapter talks about the return of the Son of Man;

Matthew 24 v 29-31 & 36-42;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


@maestro21, where does the "rapture" fit into this timeline?

Verse 29 and 42 should give you a hint already. Remember, this discussion was between Jesus and his disciples who already believed in him (Matthew 24 v 3)

The church age commenced after the resurrection of Jesus FYI.

Maestro21:


This is another example of a double reference. Study Luke 21 to get the actual chronology. Luke says so in verse 12. See verse 20-27. Take note of verse 24 which he connects to events preceding the 2nd coming of Jesus. Jesus did not come again 70AD did he?

Now go to Revelation 11 vs 2. Remember this is futuristic yet you see a new temple and a Jerusalem that is going to be treaded upon for 42 months (3.5 years) that matches perfectly with what Jesus said.

I can show you at least 3 more double references from the OT that people felt was only literal till Jesus came to show that some of it was yet to be fulfilled. The desecration of the temple by before Jesus was born on earth is another example.

Bros, carefully examine the words Jesus used in

Matthew 24 v 21;
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Are you telling us the “great tribulation which has not happened since the beginning of the world nor ever shall be” happened in 70 AD and will happen again in the future?

Maestro21:


The church age commenced after the resurrection of Jesus FYI.

This does not answer the question I asked.

Matthew 24 v 29-31 & 36-42;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[/b]40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: [b]for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

maestro21, where does the "rapture" fit into this timeline?

Verse 29 and 42 should give you a hint already. Remember, this discussion was between Jesus and his disciples who already believed in him (Matthew 24 v 3)

OkCornel:


Bros, carefully examine the words Jesus used in

Matthew 24 v 21;
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Are you telling us the “great tribulation which has not happened since the beginning of the world nor ever shall be” happened in 70 AD and will happen again in the future?

Double reference. Matthew doesn't provide a chronology. He just states everything Jesus stated. Luke is more comprehensive because he had consulted all the books prior and was able to provide a chronology.

I gave you solid proof about that.

Great tribulation is futuristic. It is proof that part of what Matthew presents is Double referenced prophecy. That is a prophecy that refers to more than 1 event. It is nuanced words that help us divide properly.

The destruction of the temple was in 70AD but there is going to be another futuristic destruction by the newer temple that will occur during the 2nd 3.5 years. Simple. That 2nd 3.5 years is what is called the GREAT tribulation.

OkCornel:


This does not answer the question I asked.

Matthew 24 v 29-31 & 36-42;
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[/b]40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: [b]for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

maestro21, where does the "rapture" fit into this timeline?

Verse 29 and 42 should give you a hint already. Remember, this discussion was between Jesus and his disciples who already believed in him (Matthew 24 v 3)

I already answered the question. I just added the FYI in a second post because you said the disciples believed in him at the time of speaking. Yes but that was not the church age since the church started after the resurrection.

Maestro21:


I already answered the question. I just added the FYI in a second post because you said the disciples believed in him at the time of speaking. Yes but that was not the church age since the church started after the resurrection.

In Matthew 24 v 42
42. Watch therefore: [b]for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Why did Jesus admonish his disciples who believed in him to watch out for his coming (which is obviously after the great tribulation as stated in Matthew 24 v 29), if they are going to be raptured before the great tribulation?

Maestro21:


Double reference. Matthew doesn't provide a chronology. He just states everything Jesus stated. Luke is more comprehensive because he had consulted all the books prior and was able to provide a chronology.

I gave you solid proof about that.

Great tribulation is futuristic. It is proof that part of what Matthew presents is Double referenced prophecy. That is a prophecy that refers to more than 1 event. It is nuanced words that help us divide properly.

The destruction of the temple was in 70AD but there is going to be another futuristic destruction by the newer temple that will occur during the 2nd 3.5 years. Simple. That 2nd 3.5 years is what is called the GREAT tribulation.

For clarity, what exactly is the double reference you’re talking about?

Destruction of the temple? Or the great tribulation? Or both…

Maestro21:


So that is how double references work. A prophecy can be declared about an event or a person in the literal sense and then also refer to a futuristic event. That is why a Bible student has to be careful in studying prophecies. Or else, tell us about the tribulation that was to take over the whole world?

As for keeping the commandments of God and testimony of Jesus. I already told you, this is no different than how you tried to define "elect". I told you during the church age that definition holds true for the definition of the church but the rapture will end that church age.

The people at the time who will now believe in God's word and in Jesus Christ were simply referred to as saints or God's holy people. Both words that were used to define Jews from the OT already before the church age.

How did I prove it to you? Jesus told the church that we would have authority over ALL the powers of the devil himself but the saints in Revelation 13 v 7-8 the devil not only has power over them but will overcome them.

You will have the most difficult time in the word trying to reconcile the 2. Except that the saints in the tribulation are not the church. I showed you more references. Paul says Jesus washed the church himself and gave us robes of righteousness however John says those tribulation saints did it by themselves. Can you reconcile it?

The letters written to the seven churches is not prophecy. Future events in the book of Revelation starts from Chapter 4 v 1.

Claims that the letters written to the 7 churches also applies to a future period is nothing but pure eisegesis

Maestro21:

I can answer your question. I just want you to know that is not the rapture. That is all.

The people being taken are Jews when the antichrist and his army will match towards Jerusalem to tread upon it. That is why Jesus said those in that area should flee the very moment they see the antichrist desecrate the temple. They should also pray that it is not winter because it will make running away difficult

Wrong. The people taken are those who would face the wrath of the lamb on the day of the Lord (the second coming of Jesus)

That is why Jesus said the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see the sign of the son of man in heaven - Matthew 24 v 30

Cross check this with Revelation 6 v 12-20

Maestro21:


That is my point exactly. That words like God's elect, saints, holy people is for the church today because the Jews lost out (Matthew 21:43). They used to be it before but they rejected Jesus and lost it. By the time the church age ends God will focus on them again. That is why John could not call those people in Revelation 13 the church. Is that hard to understand?

Lmao, why did the Angel in Revelation 19 not refer to John’s brothers and sisters as the church? But still used the word “brothers and sisters who hold on to the testimony of Jesus”

Revelation 19 v 10;
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus[/b]. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.

Exact same words used in Revelation 12 v 17;
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring —[b]those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Maestro21:


Please read slowly. Noah preached to people who did not listen. They went on eating, drinking etc. Then the day came. Noah was safely in the ark and the flood killed every one else that was not in the ark.

Jesus said his coming will be similar. People will not believe in it and think life will continue as is. But they will be surprised to experience the worst things ever.

I told you that just like in Noah's time, the righteous people will be safe in a place that the worst things coming won't get to them.

Is that simple enough?

Again, it means the righteous would be spared from the wrath of the Lamb on the day of the Lord. Not escape into heaven from the great tribulation.

Maestro21:


After. Just like Jesus said.

Remember, Noah/Lot (righteous men), removed from the way (rapture), wrath/judgements (tribulation) before Jesus comes (2nd coming).

Noah and Lot were not “raptured”. They were spared from God’s wrath. That’s the context the scripture “as in the days of Noah/Lot”. The righteous would be spared from the wrath of the lamb on that dreadful day of the Lord. Not that the righteous would escape the great tribulation.

Maestro21:


By the way, what pronoun will be apposite for the church? Will the body have a different pronoun than the head?

Ever heard of the bride of Christ?

Anyways, if according to you the church is the restrainer. Prior to the church being established (any period from the OT up to the day of Pentecost), why wasn’t this man of lawlessness revealed? Remember, no church no restrainer abi

OkCornel:


In Matthew 24 v 42
42. Watch therefore: [b]for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Why did Jesus admonish his disciples who believed in him to watch out for his coming (which is obviously after the great tribulation as stated in Matthew 24 v 29), if they are going to be raptured before the great tribulation?

He was talking to Jewish disciples who did not even know at the time that Gentiles were going to be part of the church. I already preempted you by reminding you that the church age started after this. Also, read the questions Jesus was asked from Matthew 24 v 1. He was answering Jewish people about the future of the Jews.

OkCornel:


For clarity, what exactly is the double reference you’re talking about?

Destruction of the temple? Or the great tribulation? Or both…

Destruction of the temple.

OkCornel:


The letters written to the seven churches is not prophecy. Future events in the book of Revelation starts from Chapter 4 v 1.

Claims that the letters written to the 7 churches also applies to a future period is nothing but pure eisegesis

I completely get where you are coming from but prophecy is not for only future events. Prophecy talks about the past, present and future as well. That is prophecy 101.

Second, when studying Bible prophecy you need to be able to account for every aspect of it or else you will most likely be misunderstanding it. Remember that Jews till date are still expecting a messiah to come for the first time even though a lot of prophecies were given. How did they miss it? Because a lot of Bible prophecies are double referenced.

Now answer one question, I can show you more. What tribulation was going to come over the whole world at that time? Revelation 3 v 10. Thanks. Your answer will help you understand prophecies.