OkCornel:


Wrong. The people taken are those who would face the wrath of the lamb on the day of the Lord (the second coming of Jesus)

That is why Jesus said the tribes of the earth will mourn when they see the sign of the son of man in heaven - Matthew 24 v 30

Cross check this with Revelation 6 v 12-20

You are confusing yourself and the issue is you are not answering questions nor are you just simply interpreting the verses as written.

Every single person in this world during the tribulation will face the wrath of God. (All that talk about the day of the lord has been put to bed). I told you the wrath is the tribulation.

For 3.5 years they'll be overwhelmed but the antichrist at the time is pretending to be a man of peace. Then he will become a tyrant midway into the 7 years (3.5 years) because the devil controlling him will let him know they don't have much time because of what happened in the heavenlies. Satan is booted from that realm so he makes the antichrist focus his attention on the Jews. That is when he matches towards Jerusalem, commits the abomination which leads to desolstion and gets his gentile army to behead any jew they see etc. The jews start fleeing to the Jordanian mountains where God has prepared for some of them who can make it to get supernatural help.

Arch Angel Micheal is the angel over Israel. That is what Revelation 12 v 7 was referring to. Michael fights for Israel. So compare scriptures and you'd see that Jesus said when they see the abominable act by the antichrist, the jews around Judea should start running towards Jordan. That is what it is. I would put Bible references but I expect you to know where they are. That is why I have told you repeatedly that the time of JACOB'S trouble is called that because JACOB is ISRAEL.

OkCornel:


Lmao, why did the Angel in Revelation 19 not refer to John’s brothers and sisters as the church? But still used the word “brothers and sisters who hold on to the testimony of Jesus”

Revelation 19 v 10;
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus[/b]. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.

Exact same words used in Revelation 12 v 17;
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring —[b]those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Just be calming down brother. Your understanding of these books are really not at the level you think. Revelation 19 v 10 is a Jewish prophet whose new assignment is to deliver messages. If I was to guess, I'd say that was Daniel.

That is not an "angel" like we have those spirit beings like Michael and Gabriel. This particular angel is a messenger who was once a human being. There is no where "angels" refer to humans as brothers or fellow servants. Go back and study the verses well. I can show you more proofs as to why that is not the angel you think it is.

OkCornel:


Again, it means the righteous would be spared from the wrath of the Lamb on the day of the Lord. Not escape into heaven from the great tribulation.

My dear, did the flood or brimstone occur until Noah and Lot where safely removed from the scene? The only wrath the Bible accounts for is the WRATH OF GOD THE FATHER. The day of the Lord like I have shown begins at the second coming.

OkCornel:


Noah and Lot were not “raptured”. They were spared from God’s wrath. That’s the context the scripture “as in the days of Noah/Lot”. The righteous would be spared from the wrath of the lamb on that dreadful day of the Lord. Not that the righteous would escape the great tribulation.

You simply have to answer my question. Did the angel not tell Lot that the destruction of Sodom will not begin until Lot was out of there? Just answer.

OkCornel:


Ever heard of the bride of Christ?

Anyways, if according to you the church is the restrainer. Prior to the church being established (any period from the OT up to the day of Pentecost), why wasn’t this man of lawlessness revealed? Remember, no church no restrainer abi

The bride of christ is a CITY. The church is NOT the bride of christ.

Because there was a church in the OT. Acts 7:38.

Maestro21:
He was talking to Jewish disciples who did not even know at the time that Gentiles were going to be part of the church. I already preempted you by reminding you that the church age started after this. Also, read the questions Jesus was asked from Matthew 24 v 1. He was answering Jewish people about the future of the Jews.

Tsk tsk tsk

Matthew 24 v 14 actually contradicts what you’re claiming here;

14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And what’s even more contradictory here is, if according to you… Matthew 24 speaks of the future of the Jews, why are you using it in your argument to support “pre-tribulation” rapture of the church?

Maestro21:
You simply have to answer my question. Did the angel not tell Lot that the destruction of Sodom will not begin until Lot was out of there? Just answer.

Was Lot and Noah taken into Heaven to spare them from the judgment God had executed on the unrighteous ones in their time?

Maestro21:
You are confusing yourself and the issue is you are not answering questions nor are you just simply interpreting the verses as written.

Every single person in this world during the tribulation will face the wrath of God. (All that talk about the day of the lord has been put to bed). I told you the wrath is the tribulation.

For 3.5 years they'll be overwhelmed but the antichrist at the time is pretending to be a man of peace. Then he will become a tyrant midway into the 7 years (3.5 years) because the devil controlling him will let him know they don't have much time because of what happened in the heavenlies. Satan is booted from that realm so he makes the antichrist focus his attention on the Jews. That is when he matches towards Jerusalem, commits the abomination which leads to desolstion and gets his gentile army to behead any jew they see etc. The jews start fleeing to the Jordanian mountains where God has prepared for some of them who can make it to get supernatural help.

Arch Angel Micheal is the angel over Israel. That is what Revelation 12 v 7 was referring to. Michael fights for Israel. So compare scriptures and you'd see that Jesus said when they see the abominable act by the antichrist, the jews around Judea should start running towards Jordan. That is what it is. I would put Bible references but I expect you to know where they are. That is why I have told you repeatedly that the time of JACOB'S trouble is called that because JACOB is ISRAEL.

Only the unrighteous ones will face the wrath of the lamb on dreadful day of the Lord. Not everyone.

Maestro21:


The bride of christ is a CITY. The church is NOT the bride of christ.

Well, you’re right to say the bride of Christ is the new Jerusalem. Apostle Paul also referred to the church as the bride of Christ.

Ephesians 5 v 23-33;
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Maestro21:


Because there was a church in the OT. Acts 7:38.

There was a church in the Old Testament? Haba!!!

According to you, the term “God’s holy people” used in the book of Revelation refers to the Jews… but now these people are the “church” in the Old Testament restraining the man of lawlessness abi? You can’t argue both ways with this nau

So if there was a “church” in the Old Testament, why did Jesus tell Peter this?

Matthew 16 v 18-19;

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Maestro21:
I completely get where you are coming from but prophecy is not for only future events. Prophecy talks about the past, present and future as well. That is prophecy 101.

Second, when studying Bible prophecy you need to be able to account for every aspect of it or else you will most likely be misunderstanding it. Remember that Jews till date are still expecting a messiah to come for the first time even though a lot of prophecies were given. How did they miss it? Because a lot of Bible prophecies are double referenced.

Now answer one question, I can show you more. What tribulation was going to come over the whole world at that time? Revelation 3 v 10. Thanks. Your answer will help you understand prophecies.

For the umpteenth time, Christ never promised keeping the Philadelphia church in heaven as a means of escaping the great tribulation. The promise is to protect them, shield them.

The problem with this interpretation of using only the Philadelphia church to argue as escape into heaven from the great tribulation because they are a faithful church is this…

The Smyrna church also got an excellent report from Jesus, but guess what? They were persecuted, and encouraged to be faithful up to death.

Revelation 2 v 8-10;
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Lol, if this is also a prophecy, using the prophetic language here, does 10 days mean 10 years? Or 10,000 years

Remember, both the Philadelphia church and Smyrna church had excellent report from Christ. But why do pretribulation rapture doctrine believers stick to the Philadelphia church as their evidence, but ignore the Smyrna church when arguing their case .That reeks of bias…

@maestro21, please check through the book of Revelation. In all of John’s visions in Heaven, did you see anywhere he identified “these are the believers who were taken up to Heaven and spared from the great tribulation”?

Maestro21:
Just be calming down brother. Your understanding of these books are really not at the level you think. Revelation 19 v 10 is a Jewish prophet whose new assignment is to deliver messages. If I was to guess, I'd say that was Daniel.

That is not an "angel" like we have those spirit beings like Michael and Gabriel. This particular angel is a messenger who was once a human being. There is no where "angels" refer to humans as brothers or fellow servants. Go back and study the verses well. I can show you more proofs as to why that is not the angel you think it is.

You are side stepping the question. I am not concerned with the identity of the Angel. My concern is, in that verse…the Angel did not use the word “church” to identify John’s brothers and sisters. He used a term which was repeated throughout revelation;

Revelation 19 v 10;
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus[/b]. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.

Exact same words used in Revelation 12 v 17;
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring —[b]those who keep God’s commands and hold fast to their testimony about Jesus.

So this is my question;
In Revelation 19 v 10 - is it the church the Angel referred to as John’s brothers and sisters who hold onto the testimony of Jesus? If yes;

Then those who hold fast onto the testimony of Jesus in Revelation 12 v 7 is the church. The church would be very much around during the great tribulation.

I just want to say, I read every single word of all 10 pages. Kudos guys. Quite an engaging read.

BTW, if rapture happens pre or post tribulation, we will all actually find out.

Also, the day of the Lord, the day of Christ, the day of wrath, the Great tribulation, etc., sound to me like they all really refer to a period, especially looking at how the events all bear remarkable similarities by biblical descriptions.

And just a little something I thought might have been very clear to both of you about who's restraining the beast between the church or God... Aren't you both saying the same thing?

I mean, if God gave the church the authority by which the beast is restrained, couldn't you either say God is restraining the beast or the church is and still be functionally right?

Anyways, I'm still reading and learning a lot.
@Maestro, you sound like a son of my man of God. @OkCornel, you are knowledgeable in the scriptures.

Thanks both of you.

OkCornel:


Tsk tsk tsk

Matthew 24 v 14 actually contradicts what you’re claiming here;

14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And what’s even more contradictory here is, if according to you… Matthew 24 speaks of the future of the Jews, why are you using it in your argument to support “pre-tribulation” rapture of the church?

Hahahaha. I like you alot it has to be said but you don't understand the full story.

Jews always thought they will preach the gospel to other Jews around the world. That was their interpretation of those words. Study Matthew 10 v 5. That is why after Peter preached to Cornelius, James and the rest tackled him initially and only backed off when he told them the holy spirit bade him to go and how that the spirit was poured upon gentiles like over the Jews. It was at that point that James had an "aha" moment and went back to reinterpret an OT scripture lol Acts 11.

Now read Matthew 24 v 1-3 Jesus had made a statement concerning the very well-known Jewish temple that took 49 years to build and said not even a stone will be left when that temple is destroyed. The disciples get shocked so they ask 3 Jewish questions.

1. When shall this thing be?
2. What is the sign of your coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of the age?

Then Jesus answers their questions. So as you can see he did not talk about the rapture explicitly as it were because he had already told them he had a lot to say but that they would not understand it. That is why Paul called the rapture a mystery. Many of the early believers did not know about it nor understand it.

That is why I told you Jesus told them about the rapture in codes. He said pray to be counted worthy to escape the wrath. He said a sign of his coming will be like Noah and Lot. These facts are easy to see man. So easy.

OkCornel:


Was Lot and Noah taken into Heaven to spare them from the judgment God had executed on the unrighteous ones in their time?

Come on the strawman arguments are getting tedious now. Is the old testament not a shadow of the new? Did Jesus die in a Whale's belly like Jonah did even though Jesus compared his death and resurrection to being similar to Jonah and the Whale? If you are not trying to be facetious you'd see that Jesus was simply showing he would be buried for 3 days and 3 nights like Jonah.

I have shown you copiously how Noah and Lot relate. Easy.

OkCornel:


Only the unrighteous ones will face the wrath of the lamb on dreadful day of the Lord. Not everyone.

Can you provide verses to back this up?

Let me show you verses proving this is false. Revelation 12 v 12; Revelation 13 v 7; even the 2 prophets sent by God during the great tribulation were killed with all the power they had (Revelation 11 v 10) the false Prophet will cause virtually anyone who refuses to bow to the antichrist to be killed Revelation 13 v 12-15 like are you for real? Did Revelation 6 v 10 not tell you that the people beheaded during that time were crying in heaven for God to avenge them? If they did not face the wrath why were they killed by an antichrist? Matthew 24 v 22 tells you that God had to reduce the great tribulation from 7 years to only 3.5 years or else NO FLESH would have been spared. Do you know what that means? Revelation 3 v 10 tells you it is for the whole world.

Maestro21:
Can you provide verses to back this up?

Let me show you verses proving this is false. Revelation 12 v 12; Revelation 13 v 7; even the 2 prophets sent by God during the great tribulation were killed with all the power they had (Revelation 11 v 10) the false Prophet will cause virtually anyone who refuses to bow to the antichrist to be killed Revelation 13 v 12-15 like are you for real? Did Revelation 6 v 10 not tell you that the people beheaded during that time were crying in heaven for God to avenge them? If they did not face the wrath why were they killed by an antichrist? Matthew 24 v 22 tells you that God had to reduce the great tribulation from 7 years to only 3.5 years or else NO FLESH would have been spared. Do you know what that means? Revelation 3 v 10 tells you it is for the whole world.

Oh my goodness, are you mixing up persecution of believers for the wrath of God?
Lmao...the great tribulation is a totally different thing from the wrath of God. Don't mix up these two.

There are numerous bible verses to back the fact that only the unrighteous Ones would face the wrath of the lamb and God on the day of the Lord;

Start with Matthew 26 v 34-51. Pay special attention to verses 42-51.

Maestro21:
Come on the strawman arguments are getting tedious now. Is the old testament not a shadow of the new? Did Jesus die in a Whale's belly like Jonah did even though Jesus compared his death and resurrection to being similar to Jonah and the Whale? If you are not trying to be facetious you'd see that Jesus was simply showing he would be buried for 3 days and 3 nights like Jonah.

I have shown you copiously how Noah and Lot relate. Easy.

Again, being spared from God's wrath does not automatically translate to mean being caught up into heaven to escape the great tribulation (persecution). Don't mix up both. All the instances Jesus referred to in the Old Testament (days of Noah and days of Lot) relates to God's faithful servant being spared of His judgment (wrath) on the unrighteous ones. Not escape from persecution/tribulation...don't mix up God's wrath with persecution from the evil one.

KaLuCh:
I just want to say, I read every single word of all 10 pages. Kudos guys. Quite an engaging read.

BTW, if rapture happens pre or post tribulation, we will all actually find out.

Also, the day of the Lord, the day of Christ, the day of wrath, the Great tribulation, etc., sound to me like they all really refer to a period, especially looking at how the events all bear remarkable similarities by biblical descriptions.

And just a little something I thought might have been very clear to both of you about who's restraining the beast between the church or God... Aren't you both saying the same thing?

I mean, if God gave the church the authority by which the beast is restrained, couldn't you either say God is restraining the beast or the church is and still be functionally right?

Anyways, I'm still reading and learning a lot.
@Maestro, you sound like a son of my man of God. @OkCornel, you are knowledgeable in the scriptures.

Thanks both of you.

God bless. Thanks for taking out time to read. And kudos to maestro21 for a mature and insightful discussion even though we hold differing views. It's a rare trait on this platform.

OkCornel:


Well, you’re right to say the bride of Christ is the new Jerusalem. Apostle Paul also referred to the church as the bride of Christ.

Ephesians 5 v 23-33;
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.



There was a church in the Old Testament? Haba!!!

According to you, the term “God’s holy people” used in the book of Revelation refers to the Jews… but now these people are the “church” in the Old Testament restraining the man of lawlessness abi? You can’t argue both ways with this nau

So if there was a “church” in the Old Testament, why did Jesus tell Peter this?

Matthew 16 v 18-19;

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Dear, an analogical teaching is not equivalent to a categorical teaching. The church is the BODY of Christ. Period. The church is NOT the bride of christ but is only a part of that bride. The OT saints and tribulation saints are part of the bride as well. There is no need for the back and forth as I can easily explain the verses of Paul you quoted above. Let us just follow exactly what the Bible says. Revelation 21:9-10 John is shown the wife of Jesus, the lamb's bride. It was the NEW JERUSALEM. It is not a new teaching. Isaiah prophesied it in Isaiah 62 v 4. Paul in Galatians 4 v 26 told us that the Jerusalem from above is EVERYONE'S mother. Everyone being jews and gentiles from the OT into the NT.

I am really surprised at how badly you are struggling with basic truths that I feel the need to make longer posts.

Church means ekklesia in Greek. A called-out assembly; a special section from the rest hence why they are called an ELECT. God has always had a Church across dispensations.

In the OT the Jews were his Church. That is what Acts 7 v 38 clearly shows. That is why all the assignment about restraining evil was delegated to the Jews then to pray and salvation belonged to them. But that was just a shadow. GOD'S ideal Church was to initiated by his son. Jesus came to establish it but the Jews would have nothing of it (Matthew 21 v 43) so Jesus took it to the gentile nation instead. Study Romans 9 especially verse 25. That is why the body of christ AKA present day church today is the restrainer of evil etc. When that church age ends God will go back to the Jews like Romans 9 and Romans 11 explicate. They will become the "church" again. The only issue is, they will have to pass through God's wrath AKA Jacob's trouble/great tribulation while at it.

Why do you think Jesus wept over Jerusalem in Matthew 23 v 37-39 (which incidentally led him to prophesy about the temple in Matthew 24 v 1)? Because the predominant sufferers during the tribulation will be the Jews and Jesus was also telling he planned to gather them into safety but they won't listen now their land is left to them DESOLATE and before they see him again they will now have to believe in him (which is what they will do courtesy of the 144k Jewish preachers and the 2 witnesses preaching to them during the tribulation period).

OkCornel:


For the umpteenth time, Christ never promised keeping the Philadelphia church in heaven as a means of escaping the great tribulation. The promise is to protect them, shield them.

The problem with this interpretation of using only the Philadelphia church to argue as escape into heaven from the great tribulation because they are a faithful church is this…

The Smyrna church also got an excellent report from Jesus, but guess what? They were persecuted, and encouraged to be faithful up to death.

Revelation 2 v 8-10;
8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Lol, if this is also a prophecy, using the prophetic language here, does 10 days mean 10 years? Or 10,000 years

Remember, both the Philadelphia church and Smyrna church had excellent report from Christ. But why do pretribulation rapture doctrine believers stick to the Philadelphia church as their evidence, but ignore the Smyrna church when arguing their case .That reeks of bias…

I don't like making long posts as I feel the essence is lost in many words. I already told you that each of the 7 churches also prophetically represent 7 dispensations or generations of the church age. So that Smyrna church is another generation entirely. I cannot say more than that now as I don't want to veer off.

OkCornel:
@maestro21, please check through the book of Revelation. In all of John’s visions in Heaven, did you see anywhere he identified “these are the believers who were taken up to Heaven and spared from the great tribulation”?

Revelation had a lot of parenthetical chapters but it will bog me down to show you many instances where this was alluded to. For e.g in Revelation 12 v 5 I told you the man child (Jesus and his body) are taken away from the world to heaven. V 12 says those in heaven should rejoice while those still left on earth should be in woe because the devil will begin to massacre them like never before. If the people who were "caught up" in verse 5 only went there by dying then there is nothing to celebrate as the ones on earth will still be persecuted and killed by the devil/antichrist for refusing his mark and they'll still be in heaven right? So what is the big deal? The big deal is, the verse 5 people went to heaven like Enoch and Elijah. That is what Jesus meant by saying some people will be counted WORTHY to escape the wrath of the tribulation. So that proves some people left before the tribulation and not by dying or being killed.

Next, take note that in the marriage supper of the lamb in Revelation 19, the church which is part of the bride is there already. Do you agree? Then later in that chapter Jesus prepares to come back down for his second coming. What does that tell you? That the church had to have been raptured before Jesus's second coming. Simple. If the question becomes pre tribulation or pre great tribulation (mid tribulation) I'll have to share another secret that many do not know. But that is for later.

OkCornel:


You are side stepping the question. I am not concerned with the identity of the Angel. My concern is, in that verse…the Angel did not use the word “church” to identify John’s brothers and sisters. He used a term which was repeated throughout revelation;

Revelation 19 v 10;
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus[/b]. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.

Exact same words used in Revelation 12 v 17;
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring —[b]those who keep God’s commands and hold fast to their testimony about Jesus.

So this is my question;
In Revelation 19 v 10 - is it the church the Angel referred to as John’s brothers and sisters who hold onto the testimony of Jesus? If yes;

Then those who hold fast onto the testimony of Jesus in Revelation 12 v 7 is the church. The church would be very much around during the great tribulation.

Because John's brothers and sisters are the Jews as well just like the "Angel" that was talking to John. Only that at the time of the tribulation many of John's brothers will now have believed in Jesus. Why? Because the rapture that they claimed was a hoax had happened and it woke alot of people up.

I pity those who don't believe in the rapture. Paul said Enoch was raptured by faith. Elijah told Elisha "if you see me when I am taken..." which means he knew he would be raptured as well. You have to believe in the rapture to qualify for it. You cannot disbelieve it and still be raptured. I weep for some Christians.

KaLuCh:
I just want to say, I read every single word of all 10 pages. Kudos guys. Quite an engaging read.

BTW, if rapture happens pre or post tribulation, we will all actually find out.

Also, the day of the Lord, the day of Christ, the day of wrath, the Great tribulation, etc., sound to me like they all really refer to a period, especially looking at how the events all bear remarkable similarities by biblical descriptions.

And just a little something I thought might have been very clear to both of you about who's restraining the beast between the church or God... Aren't you both saying the same thing?

I mean, if God gave the church the authority by which the beast is restrained, couldn't you either say God is restraining the beast or the church is and still be functionally right?

Anyways, I'm still reading and learning a lot.
@Maestro, you sound like a son of my man of God. @OkCornel, you are knowledgeable in the scriptures.

Thanks both of you.

of course the day of the Lord/Christ etc is a period not a 24 hour day. 2 Peter 3 let's us know even the melting and destruction of this world is part of that day. The wrath of God however is the tribulation which starts immediately after the rapture till the end of the tribulation. Joel 2 v 31 says so.

It depends on who your man of God is but I have a feeling you are right!

Maestro21:
I don't like making long posts as I feel the essence is lost in many words. I already told you that each of the 7 churches also prophetically represent 7 dispensations or generations of the church age. So that Smyrna church is another generation entirely. I cannot say more than that now as I don't want to veer off.

Kindly tell us which eras each of the 7 churches belong to…since according to you, each of the churches represent a dispensation in the church age

Maestro21:
Because John's brothers and sisters are the Jews as well just like the "Angel" that was talking to John. Only that at the time of the tribulation many of John's brothers will now have believed in Jesus. Why? Because the rapture that they claimed was a hoax had happened and it woke alot of people up.

I pity those who don't believe in the rapture. Paul said Enoch was raptured by faith. Elijah told Elisha "if you see me when I am taken..." which means he knew he would be raptured as well. You have to believe in the rapture to qualify for it. You cannot disbelieve it and still be raptured. I weep for some Christians.

This is just an appeal to emotions.

Are you telling us the people the Angel referred to as brothers and sisters of John who hold on the testimony of Jesus in Revelation 19 v 10 are just Israelites?

Revelation 19 v 10;
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.


To prove you’re wrong on this;

A. Jesus referred to his brothers and sisters as those who do the will of the Father -

B. Apostle John referred to believers in Christ (whether Jew or Gentile) as brothers and sisters.

See 1 John 2 v 9-11;
9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.
10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble.
11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

C Apostle Paul (also a Jew) on multiple occasions in his letters also referred to gentile believers as his brothers and sisters.

See 1 Corinthians 1 v 1-2 for example;

From Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Sosthenes, our brother, to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.


Sosthenes was a Greek believer resident at Corinth.

OkCornel:




Kindly tell us which eras each of the 7 churches belong to…since according to you, each of the churches represent a dispensation in the church age

I am surprised that many don't know this and I probably will do a more comprehensive teaching on this but it will be a distraction for now.

Maestro21:
I am surprised that many don't know this and I probably will do a more comprehensive teaching on this but it will be a distraction for now.

I actually know about this, but I am waiting for "your interpretation" on where the Philadelphia church era falls in. Anyways, that 7 letters to the church is 7 eras of the church teaching is nothing more than pure eisegesis. Scriptures should explain scripture (exegesis). Let the words speak for themselves.

2 Peter 1 v 20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

And anyhow you want to look at it, everyone who has interpreted the 7 churches from a dispensation perspective (see an example in the image below) agrees that the Laodicean church is the last dispensation. So your argument of using the Philadelphia church in support of a pre-tribulation rapture falls flat. The dispensation of that church has come and gone.

Anyways...like I mentioned earlier, the letters John wrote to the 7 churches is not a prophecy.

OkCornel:


This is just appeal to emotions.

Are you telling us the people the Angel referred to as brothers and sisters of John who hold on the testimony of Jesus in Revelation 19 v 10 are just Israelites?

Revelation 19 v 10;
10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.


To prove you’re wrong on this;

A. Jesus referred to his brothers and sisters as those who do the will of the Father -

B. Apostle John referred to believers in Christ (whether Jew or Gentile) as brothers and sisters.

See 1 John 2 v 9-11;
9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness.
10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble.
11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

C Apostle Paul (also a Jew) on multiple occasions in his letters also referred to gentile believers as his brothers and sisters.

See 1 Corinthians 1 v 1-2 for example;

From Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Sosthenes, our brother, to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours.


Sosthenes was a Greek believer resident at Corinth.

It seems every thing I have shown you is flying over you. And I told you that I am avoiding long posts. So a little refresher:

You once quoted 1 Peter 2 v 9 to show that the church was a holy nation, God's people, peculiar, elect etc. Yes, for the zillionth time in the church age you are right. However that church age will come to an end. You cannot study or use a verse out of context. It will confuse your overarching knowledge of the body of truth. Peter knew he was in the church age because as a Jew he also knew about Exodus 19 v 5-6 where those very same words were said about the Jews.

Remember I told you that Jesus told the Jews in Matthew 21 v 43 that the kingdom was going to be taken from them and given to another nation. For the kingdom to be taken from them, it means they had the kingdom to begin with. Jesus told the woman at the well that salvation was of the Jews. Salvation came from them. They had the covenant. They were God's people.

Now take a look at Daniel 9 v 20, 24. I am using my phone so I cannot quote the verses for you but Daniel says he is referring to his people - Israel. Take note of the prophecies being given. Daniel says those prophecies are about his people. Now take a good look at Daniel 12 v 1. It shows that Michael is fighting for Daniel's people during the middle of the tribulation or the beginning of the great tribulation. Daniel says Michael is the angel over his people Israel. Do you see this verse parallels with Revelation 12 v 6-7? It is a perfect match. The emphasis here is Daniel's people, Jews.

Now let us examine Revelation 19 again to see the reference. The messenger tells John "I am of your brethren" but not just brethren because of Jewish heritage, but one that has the record of Jesus Christ. In other words, I am like you, a Jew who believes in Jesus Christ. That does not mean that gentiles are not part of the brethren like you think I am trying to say. But the time of that statement is key! It is being said at the point just before Jesus comes back to the earth which means that is not the church age. Don't take my word for it. Here is more.

The same word used for brethren in the KJV is used as is in Revelation 22 v 9. (You might see why I warned you about the NIV). John again wanted to worship an "angel" but the angel told him, I am a fellow servant, and one of your brothers the prophets. In this context, will you generically use the same brothers and sisters translation? You simply cannot. Who are John’s brethren that are prophets? Jews.

Now study Matthew 22 v 1-14. Is that not a parabolic prophecy about the marriage supper of the lamb? In that context who are the servants? Verse 5 says some of them were killed. Can you see why that messenger called himself a fellow servant? Does that verse 5 not flow perfectly with Matthew 23 v 34-39? If that is the case will that not be more specifically Jews?

OkCornel:


I actually know about this, but I am waiting for "your interpretation" on where the Philadelphia church era falls in. Anyways, that 7 letters to the church is 7 eras of the church teaching is nothing more than pure eisegesis. Scriptures should explain scripture (exegesis). Let the words speak for themselves.

2 Peter 1 v 20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

And anyhow you want to look at it, everyone who has interpreted the 7 churches from a dispensation perspective (see an example in the image below) agrees that the Laodicean church is the last dispensation. So your argument of using the Philadelphia church in support of a pre-tribulation rapture falls flat. The dispensation of that church has come and gone.

Anyways...like I mentioned earlier, the letters John wrote to the 7 churches is not a prophecy.

How would you know my own understanding is of private interpretation when I have barely given it? At what point in our discussions have I proven myself to not be able to back up anything I have said? Lol. What even makes you think for e.g that the screenshot you have is something I agree with? Is it not already clear that I don't parrot the popular stuff? Will you agree for e.g that you never knew that the wrath of God was and the day of Christ were not the same because others you may have conversed with thought they were?

My dear, I just don't want to veer off into the prophetic significance of the 7 churches listed. That you don't agree about their prophetic significance is of little to no import. I am yet to see you quote the verses that show for e.g that God is the restrainer etc even when I have mentioned in some instances 4 verses to validate any claims I have made. lol

Maestro21:
It seems every thing I have shown you is flying over you. And I told you that I am avoiding long posts. So a little refresher:

You once quoted 1 Peter 2 v 9 to show that the church was a holy nation, God's people, peculiar, elect etc. Yes, for the zillionth time in the church age you are right. However that church age will come to an end. You cannot study or use a verse out of context. It will confuse your overarching knowledge of the body of truth. Peter knew he was in the church age because as a Jew he also knew about Exodus 19 v 5-6 were those very same words were said about the Jews.

Remember I told you that Jesus told the Jews in Matthew 21 v 43 that the kingdom was going to be taken from them and given to another nation. For the kingdom to be taken from them, it means they had the kingdom to begin with. Jesus told the woman at the well that salvation was of the Jews. Salvation came from them. They had the covenant. They were God's people.

Now take a look at Daniel 9 v 20, 24. I am using my phone so I cannot quote the verses for you but Daniel says he is referring to his people - Israel. Take note of the prophecies being given. Daniel says those prophecies are about his people. Now take a good look at Daniel 12 v 1. It shows that Michael is fighting for Daniel's people during the middle of the tribulation or the beginning of the great tribulation. Daniel says Michael is the angel over his people Israel. Do you see this verse parallels with Revelation 12 v 6-7? It is a perfect match. The emphasis here is Daniel's people, Jews.

Now let us examine Revelation 19 again to see the reference. The messenger tells John "I am of your brethren" but not just brethren because of Jewish heritage, but one that has the record of Jesus Christ. In other words, I am like you, a Jew who believes in Jesus Christ. That does not mean that gentiles are not part of the brethren like you think I am trying to say. But the time of that statement is key! It is being said at the point just before Jesus comes back to the earth which means that is not the church age. Don't take my word for it. Here is more.

The same word used for brethren in the KJV is used as is in Revelation 22 v 9. (You might see why I warned you about the NIV). John again wanted to worship an "angel" but the angel told him, I am a fellow servant, and one of your brothers the prophets. In this context, will you generically use the same brothers and sisters translation? You simply cannot. Who are John’s brethren that are prophets? Jews.

Now study Matthew 22 v 1-14. Is that not a parabolic prophecy about the marriage supper of the lamb? In that context who are the servants? Verse 5 says some of them were killed. Can you see why that messenger called himself a fellow servant? Does that verse 5 not flow perfectly with Matthew 23 v 34-39? If that is the case will that not be more specifically Jews?

Your explanation still doesn't add up.

The great tribulation is not just about the time of Jacob's trouble which is specific to the Jews alone.
It will cut across believers from all tribes, nations and tongues. See Revelation 7 v 9-14;

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Now back to the crux of the matter. You claimed the brothers and sisters which hold onto the testimony of Jesus which the Angel spoke of are just Jews. But Apostle John also referred to gentile believers as brothers and sisters (1 John 2 v 9-11), same with Apostle Paul (see 1 Corinthians 1 v 1-2)

Unless you're telling us the great tribulation martyrs from all tribes, nations and tongues do not also qualify to be Apostle John's brothers and sisters who hold onto the testimony of Jesus

Don't focus on a part of the picture and claim it's the whole picture...

To summarize my point with the above evidences, the brothers and sisters of Apostle John who holds onto the testimony of Jesus that the Angel was referring to in Revelation 19 v 10 is the church (gentile and Jewish believers)

Maestro21:
How would you know my own understanding is of private interpretation when I have barely given it? At what point in our discussions have I proven myself to not be able to back up anything I have said? Lol. What even makes you think for e.g that the screenshot you have is something I agree with? Is it not already clear that I don't parrot the popular stuff? Will you agree for e.g that you never knew that the wrath of God was and the day of Christ were not the same because others you may have conversed with thought they were?

My dear, I just don't want to veer off into the prophetic significance of the 7 churches listed. That you don't agree about their prophetic significance is of little to no import. I am yet to see you quote the verses that show for e.g that God is the restrainer etc even when I have mentioned in some instances 4 verses to validate any claims I have made. lol

And what was the point you were making with the Philadelphia church as your evidence for pre-tribulation rapture again? Hmmm?

And Jeez, stop putting words in my mouth. Where did I claim the wrath of God in end times (7 seals, 7 bowls, 7 Trumpets and the white throne judgment verdict for those whose name isn't in the book of life) is the same thing as the day of the Lord (second coming of Christ)?