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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. (3899 Views)
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Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by Jenwitemi(m): 1:01pm On Mar 28, 2011 |
Sweetnecta, haven't you just made your allah very small, finite and very "human" in nature with this quote of yours below? If allah created humans with the purpose of them worshipping him, then this Allah has to be a needy deity. And because of this, he cannot fit the status of an infinite and all powerful being, because powerful beings aren't supposed to have egoic needs that need fulfillment through human worship. With your quote, Allah is a very very very small deity that needs human worship to serve his needs, whatever those might be. God, as i understand the term, is an entity that does not need worship, devotion and or adulation from humans because it is way way above such needs. If you Allah created the entire universe only as a place of worship of himself by sentient beings like us humans, then his sanity should be questioned because he has declared himself not fit to be a God. He needs to work on his EGO which is controlling the decisions he makes. And an entity who is controlled by his own EGO, is no God. He is no more evolved than you or i. Sweetnecta: |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by JeSoul(f): 6:37pm On Mar 28, 2011 |
Good monday Vesc . vescucci:. . . and this is at the heart of it all. Let me try . . . Consider a leprous man. He is covered in boils, sores and open wounds all over his body. He smells, terribly. His sickness pervades his entire body through to his soul. He walks into a church and the people are moved to tears and have compassion for him. They decide to give him a nice bath, they clean out his wounds, bandage them up and finally dress him up with a beautiful white silk cloth. But after a little while, his wounds begin to seep through the bandages, and then through the silk cloth, until the silk cloth itself becomes soaked, ruined, completely infected by the mans disease. This is my opinion of the human condition. Is 64: All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. We are sinful by nature, and even our most righteous acts are like the ruined silk cloth. Which is why "works" cannot save/right us in the sight of God. Now does this mean works are not important? infact just the opposite. The works must be a manifestation of the faith one claims to have in God. So it is not the works themselves that justify (lest any man boast before God) - but rather the faith. And if one claims faith but works are absent, then such a faith is dead. Assume a man who hates God and the idea of Him and manifestation of Him all around us. He rejects the inherent knowledge of a creator in all of us. He has closed shut his mind and heart to God completely. But this same man works long, hard and dedicates himself to helping others. He is by worldly standards, "a good person". Do you think this man will be accepted or rejected by God? Is sin/wrong determined primarily based on our relationship with other men? or with God first? What do you think? (others pls feel free to take a stab at this). |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by JeSoul(f): 6:47pm On Mar 28, 2011 |
^in continuation . . . So considering we cannot save ourselves by our good works - Christ prepared a way that is based on faith (that manifests in good works). And since God is not subject to the constraints of time, culture, circumstance and 'religion', this way Christ prepared stretches both backward and forward in time - reaching to all peoples, justifying as many who 'believed' and had faith - and exercised their faith by loving first of all God - and then their fellow man as themselves. Edit: I forgot to add one thing. I don't personally believe that genuine faith can be borne solely out of a desire to escape hell/make heaven. In other words, true faith must be compelled by love not fear- of hell/damnation. And oh . . .@all, all the above is merely my understanding, feel free to contribute/correct/disagree where you see fit. Thanks. |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by JeSoul(f): 6:52pm On Mar 28, 2011 |
Dulcet7:Thank you Dulcet . And really, thank you for this thread. Dulcet7:GBAM. Left, right, center, top, down, inside, outside, front, back and all around! |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by vescucci(m): 11:56pm On Mar 28, 2011 |
I'll be back, Jay. My head is aching now. |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by Sweetnecta: 12:16am On Mar 29, 2011 |
@Jenwitemi; « #64 on: Today at 01:01:27 PM » [Quote]Sweetnecta, haven't you just made your allah very small, finite and very "human" in nature with this quote of yours below? If allah created humans with the purpose of them worshipping him, then this Allah has to be a needy deity. And because of this, he cannot fit the status of an infinite and all powerful being, because powerful beings aren't supposed to have egoic needs that need fulfillment through human worship. With your quote, Allah is a very very very small deity that needs human worship to serve his needs, whatever those might be.[/Quote]Father and mother are important parts of the family. How arrogant is child who quipped 'mother is so low in esteem because she said it is a must that i respect her, that she does expect me a 5 year old to be in the house latest by midnight even on weekend, just because she does not ask me to contribute to the house payment!' your statement above is worse than the scenario i put forward, because the parent was once a child aged 5. the parent can create even a fly. and when the fly impacts her sugar cube, whatever it impacted cant be recovered. yet you think your wise cracking above is something of substance, considering that you are from a mere admixture of emissions from dad and mom, who Allah created first before He created you through their interaction? [Quote]God, as i understand the term, is an entity that does not need worship, devotion and or adulation from humans because it is way way above such needs. If you Allah created the entire universe only as a place of worship of himself by sentient beings like us humans, then his sanity should be questioned because he has declared himself not fit to be a God. He needs to work on his EGO which is controlling the decisions he makes. And an entity who is controlled by his own EGO, is no God. He is no more evolved than you or i.[/Quote]if you worship or not, it is freewill at play. it is also freewill at play that you define what God ought to be, as you 'understand it'. if you think that God has a different purpose for creating you, so that Judgment Day is a must, or that worshiping, devotion and or adulation from human are not due to Him, tell me who those are due to or what is the purpose of life, as in why are you here and where will you end up long after this? Allah says recreation is a must ans it is easy [not difficult] the second time. |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by Sweetnecta: 1:41am On Mar 29, 2011 |
some say religion [true religion from God], is merely or only the way to connect to the way to God. this idea of the way to find the way is something that has no proof on its own merit, because one will be forced to ask 'what is the way then if true religion is only the way to find the actual way?' shouldn't the true way to God be known even from the time of the first man, Adam, otherwise if such a way is known after the end of the life of Adam, where is the justice and the levelarl playing field? further, one may ask, why are the rules to be followed in the religion, then? Jesus was reported to prostrate his face and obey God Almighty Who sent him, obeying Him all the way, including declaring at the dinner table that he has finished all that God required of him. moses and other old time prophets prostrated their faces and obeyed God, including seeking forgiveness. The Just God will not operate less than what one expect from a just society. God operates even at greater plain of Mercy and or Justice. a person who disregard God can't be a good person in reality, because the foundation of goodness must recognize God in His Proper position. such a pseudo 'good man' by his rejection of God is actually a not so good man, except we do not know the unseen. this man is worse than a person who is wealthy, who knowingly leaves his parents in abject poverty, but prefers to give lavishly to those who are not related to him! imagine the day the news breaks that he has been ungrateful to his poor mother who cared for him with every ounce of energy she has. will this great man, kind to the outsider worth a spit to fair minded person? he has built a beautiful castle on a quick sand. it is destined to ruin. others decide to factor out God, as if that actually erase Him from existence. who is kidding himself except the one who thinks he has no Creator? yet others say that if those who profess a religion obviously violate the religion, that, somehow, negates the religion, instead of saying the violators are at best ignorant or hypocrites, or both. The Pattern of God is constant. so is the [way that] religion of God revealed to us, beso that we can be able to reach Him. Who is good; God knows who is good. we know for sure that such a person must follow as best as he can the footsteps laid out by God. that's the only path to reach God, for Mercy. struggling to avoid His Wrath. |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by benodic: 8:14am On Mar 29, 2011 |
@ Pastor AIO
thanks a lot pastor for making it clearer. the few moslems that i have met that were really spiritual in their outlook on life were sufis. these guys have had experiences with the Holy spirit which changes them from inside out. they are naturally good. true spirituality is not a mental thing. you do not argue it. you become it. sweetnecta said that unconditional love does not exist and that i for one can not show it. . this is exactly the point i have been making. if sweetnecta believes that unconditional love does not exist then you can imagine the kind of world we will be living in if all moslems can not show unconditional love. from day one i entered my religion the lessons i have been learning was all about learning how to give unconditional love to all life. gradually over the years i lost the narrow way of looking at life. i see all life as one. we are all sons and daughters of God. who am i to judge you or another person based on your tribe or religion. God has Its reasons for allowing all these various religions to exist. my own goal in life is therefore to love life the way that God loves all life. and that is unconditionally. thanks |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by Sweetnecta: 12:27pm On Mar 29, 2011 |
^^^^^ If benodic thinks PastorAIO's question above is a classic, i simply say that the two have shut their eyes all along to humanity. when the west led by America wanted victory over communist USSR, she threw all her weight; wealth and resources behind the mujjahidin[s] (it is mujjahidun) of Afghanistan. The west didn't win over USSR, it was the muslims who defeated her based on a very fundamental Quranic verse; Oppression is worse than killing. this verse really means that you struggle against all forms of oppression. I remember brezsinski during Jimmy Carter's regime calling the Afghan freedom fighters 'good people' and people of God on true religion. in short, today after the defeat of USSR, and long before she broke into independent states and long before 911, islam was the only thing standing against the agenda of consecrating the one world order agenda which papa bush called the big idea, now, to actually ask if islam has made my life better, is even worse than asking a man who practices decency if he is decent. you have eyes. you see him avoiding all obvious societal pitfalls, and trappings. if benodic thinks that God's love is unconditional, why is the hellfire created? How many a people has God destroyed, for loving them unconditionally, i ask you? How about the people drowned in the flood of Noah? how about the people of sodom and Gomorrah? How about the people of Egypt? while many concort their own false hope of idealism, the reality is quite different. Anyone who violates God's Commandments and dies without offering repentance, can such a person expect forgiveness from God? what state is he in when he is being punished in hellfire; unconditional love from God? may God protect us from such an end. Amin. that is truly a bad state of affair. Anyone who believes that he can love unconditionally should imagine a worse case scenario, where somebody is violating him or his loved one. can he love unconditionally, all the time including that very moment when his emotion is raw from the experience? all rational people will hate the perpetrator. the opposite of unconditional love is a momentary hatred of what is hateful [what should be hated]. A person who cant hate cant love and justice and fairness and love are abilities he lacks. Paradise is the opposite of Hellfire. Love is the opposite of Hate. Tall is the opposite of Short. Large is the opposite of Little. Big is the opposite of Small. Day is the opposite of Night. Light is the opposite of Dark. Which one do you disagree with? Unconditional love is unrealistic. It is a hopeless thought. An idea that never exist, since God Him does not practice it. After all He is the best that can give love. He hates at least satan. No? |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by benodic: 6:09pm On Mar 29, 2011 |
@ Sweetnecta
no matter how you see that question it still stands. because it is a very important question. the easiest way to tell the effects of a religion is to look at those practicing that religion. what has been the impact of that religion in their life. how can you expect someone who is surrounded by members of another religion who does not give a damn about the person and does not show any love to that person, to ever think of becoming a member himself. people have eyes and they do see that the so called people who practices decency when people are looking goes back to animal behaviour when he thinks they are not looking.
for your information i am not a christian. i am an Eckist, a member of Eckankar, Religion of the Light and sound of God. i do not believe in the god depicted in the old testament of the bible. Jehovah is a tribal god. and of course a very jealous god. he is a much lesser god in the hierarchy of the heavenly worlds. the God i am talking about is the supreme God. The Supreme God belongs to no religion and does not take sides. It of course did not create any hell and nor did It destroy anybody. It created us and sent us down to the lower universes to learn divine and unconditional love and become like It at the end and then come back home to become co-workers with It.
it is clearly stated that whatever any one sows that will he reap. if the person does not reap it and dies. such a soul will have to come back again to earth through the process of reincarnation to reap what he sowed in his past life. there is nothing like hell fire where a soul will burn forever. it is actually out of God's love that a soul is given another chance to redeem itself. the purpose of reincarnation is so that a soul will learn about the effects of its action and learn responsibility and love from it.
the test of unconditional love is the ultimate test of spiritual mastership. it is out of unconditional love that Jesus christ who is one of the masters that taught about unconditional love, was able to put back the ear of a soldier which his disciple peter had cut off, despite the fact that the soldier came to arrest him. it was also out of unconditional love that Jesus was able to say," forgive them lord, for they know not what they do" at a point when he was being crucified by the Romans and was in serious pains. also remember the story of the good samaritan in the christian bible. a man was beaten up by thieves and left for dead. a pharisee and a levi passed by and did not bother themselves about the man but a samaritan passed by and stopped and took the man to a place where he received treatment. he did this without any expectation of reward and without knowing the man. this is another example of unconditional love. i do not want to bore you with examples from my own life as of course you do not believe that unconditional love exist. and of course God does not hate satan. satan is actually working for God. nothing that is impure will ever enter the pure heavenly planes. it is the job of satan to test souls to find out who is strong and who still have weaknesses of the flesh. if you fail the test set up by satan then you repeat the class. if you pass then you move up the ladder of spiritual purity. all these are what my religion Eckankar has taught me. Its teachings has opened my heart to the divine love of God. naturally i am able to give unconditional love even to those that wrong me. why? because my heart centre is filled with love. there is no room for hatred or anger. it is a state that you have to experience to understand. |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by Sweetnecta: 9:15pm On Mar 29, 2011 |
@benodic; « #73 on: Today at 06:09:30 PM » [Quote] how can you expect someone who is surrounded by members of another religion who does not give a damn about the person and does not show any love to that person, to ever think of becoming a member himself. people have eyes and they do see that the so called people who practices decency when people are looking goes back to animal behaviour when he thinks they are not looking.[/Quote]The fasted growing religion of the so called abrahamic faiths is Islam. goggle the number of european elites that have accepted it post 911. against, there is no point arguing the obvious. i am sure that you will not love it when the armed robbers interrupt your sleep. your unconditional love will not be in existence, Eckankar or no eckankar. imagine if they do worse? [Quote]for your information i am not a christian. i am an Eckist, a member of Eckankar, Religion of the Light and sound of God. i do not believe in the god depicted in the old testament of the bible. Jehovah is a tribal god. and of course a very jealous god. he is a much lesser god in the hierarchy of the heavenly worlds.[/Quote] i already addressed your eckist religion above; i wonder what kind of unconditional love you will give the professor who gave you mere passing grade for an A+ work, and gave B+ to a person whose work is absolutely an F? [Quote] the God i am talking about is the supreme God. The Supreme God belongs to no religion and does not take sides. It of course did not create any hell and nor did It destroy anybody. It created us and sent us down to the lower universes to learn divine and unconditional love and become like It at the end and then come back home to become co-workers with It.[/Quote]you know almost every person without difficult of finance, other resources and health hates to die? death therefore to some people is a thing disliked. so the idea you have of God is unreal. who ever gave you that concept has turned you away from guidance. he is your shaytan. i wonder what Hitler will do with his It, since you stay away from the sodom and gomohra, etc questions above? [Quote]it is clearly stated that whatever any one sows that will he reap. if the person does not reap it and dies. such a soul will have to come back again to earth through the process of reincarnation to reap what he sowed in his past life.[/Quote]while your idea is similar to that of hindus in the return from death concept, i will merely ask you; where is the unconditional love, if a person needs to come back and reap what he sowed in former life? [Quote]there is nothing like hell fire where a soul will burn forever. it is actually out of God's love that a soul is given another chance to redeem itself. the purpose of reincarnation is so that a soul will learn about the effects of its action and learn responsibility and love from it.[/Quote]i rest my case based on your reincarnation idea. a soul that sees good in place he is but forced to come back to sow will belief he has not been shown unconditional love. No? [Quote]the test of unconditional love is the ultimate test of spiritual mastership. it is out of unconditional love that Jesus christ who is one of the masters that taught about unconditional love, was able to put back the ear of a soldier which his disciple peter had cut off, despite the fact that the soldier came to arrest him.[/Quote]but earlier jesus killed the tree by cursing it. jesus sent evil spirits into the herd of swine which made them drown. jesus called some people evil and adulterous generation. yet he called others people of little faith. yet he called people leaches, etc, and finally say to others they will be the least in the kingdom [do you wish to be among the least?] while he predicted that he will say to others get away from me, i do not know you [after they told him that they perform miracles in his name]. i ask again where is the unconditional love, especially when those who will inherit the kingdom of heaven are the ones who accept him, while those who reject him will not? look at the full picture and not just the background or foreground alone. the whole thing you see on the print is the picture. [Quote] it was also out of unconditional love that Jesus was able to say," forgive them lord, for they know not what they do" at a point when he was being crucified by the Romans and was in serious pains.[/Quote]contrast that [still under the pain] to telling God Almighty '. . . why has thou forsaken me!?'. tell me where is the unconditional love? where should the priority lies; with God or the romans? [Quote] also remember the story of the good samaritan in the christian bible. a man was beaten up by thieves and left for dead. a pharisee and a levi passed by and did not bother themselves about the man but a samaritan passed by and stopped and took the man to a place where he received treatment. he did this without any expectation of reward and without knowing the man. this is another example of unconditional love. i do not want to bore you with examples from my own life as of course you do not believe that unconditional love exist.[/quote]this is not uncommon in real life. it does not pass for any viable example of unconditional love. he played a normal human humane nature, whereas the others showed their human i am mining my on business attitude. if what you post above is what is great love in your book, a ton of it is done daily by muslims and non muslims alike. unconditional love, is similar to unconditional forgiveness; you love when people expect you to hate or avenge or revenge. you overlook and do not punish when you are in position to do so as just measure. [Quote]all these are what my religion Eckankar has taught me. Its teachings has opened my heart to the divine love of God. naturally i am able to give unconditional love even to those that wrong me. why? because my heart centre is filled with love. there is no room for hatred or anger. it is a state that you have to experience to understand.[/Quote]i wonder what you will do if you find a person visiting destruction on something that is dear to you? a child rapist will not be loved by the founder of eckankar, if he finds him in the act. if he gives him unconditional love, know that your leader has a heart that is dead, lacking any reality. |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by vescucci(m): 9:26pm On Mar 29, 2011 |
Ah, these people have made me forget what I want to say to you, Jay. I'll try sha: I've forgotten the duo who were of the belief that Jesus' death on the cross or death at all and belief in this event does not salvation bring. Or require. I am partial to this thought. In fact, being that faith is not something one acquires, I believe it can not be integral to God's selection process. After all, when we die, ALL of us will have faith then. It may be too late though. Penalizing someone for not having faith is like blaming a blind person for not seeing. There must be something else. It would have been even fairer if Christianity was the only religion on earth but there are various other threatening religions around o. It is choose wisely or you're screwed. That is why for some people whose faith start to waver in one Abrahamic religion, they automatically (most times anyway) adopt another Abrahamic religion. Out of fear as you so WISELY put it. There was something you said somewhere, I forget where, about people being of God (accepted Jesus) without even knowing it. I believe Jesus came with a tour de force message. |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by Sweetnecta: 5:12am On Mar 30, 2011 |
The pastor needs to know that islamic financing and housing market didnt suffer during the usa mini-repression that started in '06. the usa related authorities are studying these aspects of islamic business process; why it did not suffer as wall street, aig insurance, the housing market, that have made some towns ghost town, billionaires scamming many people, and some even committed suicides. only an ostrich head in the sand syndrome will say islam is not even the solution of all the woes we have in the today's world. |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by KunleOshob(m): 9:02am On Mar 30, 2011 |
@sweetnecta What are you ranting about above It is a well known fact that Islam is the source of one of the biggest problems in the world today and that is hate + terrorism. |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by benodic: 9:45am On Mar 30, 2011 |
@ sweetnecta
this is not uncommon in real life. it does not pass for any viable example of unconditional love. he played a normal human humane nature, whereas the others showed their human i am mining my on business attitude. if what you post above is what is great love in your book, a ton of it is done daily by muslims and non muslims alike. unconditional love, is similar to unconditional forgiveness; you love when people expect you to hate or avenge or revenge. you overlook and do not punish when you are in position to do so as just measure. out of all the replies you gave, this particular reply is the only one that matters to me. this particular action of giving love even when hatred is given to you is what matters in life. if as you said that tons of it are being done daily by muslims and non muslims alike i do not think that our country Nigeria would have been the way it is now. in reality there is so much unforgiveness and so much hatred and i can tell you as a fact as i have experienced it both in the hands of moslems and christians alike. people tend to give love only to those that are in the same religion as them. i do not want to bore you with specific experiences but i can assure you that this is what is happening. the question i am still asking is how can we get people when it comes to the issue of giving love to look beyond their religion and their sect and extend the hand of fellowship to all life. for me it will be a very wonderful starting point for harmony in life. let the end result of who is right or who is wrong rest with God. and of course once you die you will come face to face with reality but unfortunately by then you will not be able to send a post to nairaland from beyond to tell us what you are experiencing. so why not give love first and surrender what comes next to God. that is my humble opinion thanks |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by Sweetnecta: 1:10pm On Mar 30, 2011 |
question of love or hate is far beyond the boundary of Nigeria. Buhari for example chose a Christian as a running mate. It would not have mattered to me if he chose a Muslim from his own core family. for both of them will not be the same mind, 100% of the time. I have a lot of non muslims, and even non africans that I call brothers, or sisters. my love for them is not blind. the condition is that i have developed good relationship with them, that i know that i can call on them more intimately than a total stranger. yet i do not dislike a person without reason just as well as i have reason for loving a person. if everyone is a carbon copy of the others, it will be a world that is boring, plain and gives no example and ruler to measure yourself by. you know that you are getting better when you are avoiding the "known" evil, that others are indulging in. nigeria will improve, because frankly, it is a young country, merely almost 51 years old, while the like of haiti is almost 220 years old. nigeria before the civil war was almost the utopia that you are creating in your head. even before the wet ee era. however, love alone will not make anyone receive mercy from God. you have to recognize Him appropriately, first; worshiping correctly, the essential ingredient that will bring the person to having sincere ability to truly love and not the lip service type, which is more of personal desire instead of it rooted in "for the sake" of God. |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by InesQor(m): 10:45am On Sep 01, 2011 |
Dulcet7: |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by InesQor(m): 7:34pm On Feb 16, 2012 |
BUMP! |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by LordReed(m): 7:53am On Jun 27, 2022 |
Dulcet7: I see religions as people guessing at what is in a room no one knows what is inside. There could be treasure, poop or nothing, no one knows but the religions take a firm stand anyway on what they claim is in there. |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by Image123(m): 8:41am On Jun 27, 2022 |
LordReed: Really? While you may not know, millions of people know what God has done for them, in them, for their families, health and life. And they trust Him for the eternity part. |
Re: The Jerusalem Shopkeeper's Assertion: What Really (matters In) Religion. by LordReed(m): 9:16am On Jun 27, 2022 |
Image123: Good for them. |
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