adrusa:


Bolded is not true bro. With 100A out of 100AH AGM, your voltage will sag so crazily that your inverter will shut down. One reason why people can take large amp out of even a small lithium battery is that lithium maintains a good voltage until almost the bitter very end. Lead acid on the other hand will lose voltage quickly as you load it.

100A out of 100AH AGM will probably last you about 5 minutes before you voltage becomes too low to sustain your inverter!

Go and Verify!

I bought a tin of milk in 2001 for 40naira, and till today myself and my family are still managing it. People should learn to manage . Go and verify ! !

The sticker is done by a quack. How can current be measured in V and voltage in A.
Lwkmd

padolife:
Hi y’all,

I want to warn members and the general public from buying from energymall.ng especially solar panels.
[img][/img]
I bought 4 units of 350w solar panels at 77,000 each for a total of N308,000. They showed me the original Felicity panel as sample and then shipped me fake 180w panels. I hope those panels are up to 180 sef.

Find picture of said fake panel nameplate below. All effort to reach them after has proven abortive.

It’s difficult doing business in Nigeria if people are looking to rip you off at any chance that they get. If only someone had posted their experience online, I wouldn’t have fallen victim.

Please do not buy from energymall.ng they will scam you

adrusa:


Bolded is not true bro. With 100A out of 100AH AGM, your voltage will sag so crazily that your inverter will shut down. One reason why people can take large amp out of even a small lithium battery is that lithium maintains a good voltage until almost the bitter very end. Lead acid on the other hand will lose voltage quickly as you load it.

100A out of 100AH AGM will probably last you about 5 minutes before you voltage becomes too low to sustain your inverter!

Go and Verify!

Nice catch,
An oversight by Niyi, i suppose
Also that agm will become irreversibly damaged by such a huge leadacid life ending 1C drain

Lithium kicks ass, go and verify, and afterwards become obedient and yusful

samnaija:


Niyi you don't need to explain , there think people are gullible to everything. That was why I asked na pure water factory.

This comment shows that the intentions are different but ofcourse since Niyi has further corroborated and dignified the misunderstanding it's fine. Make I dey run my pure water factory as you even claim some of us are gullible...na wa o... people dey talk anyhow here sha.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Savvy folks like you should be wary of putting out info in this manner so as not to mislead non technical people.

One could run a 120a load on a 100Ah Lithium bank or a 100Ah AGM bank no trouble - in both cases the backup time will be super short (less than 1 hour) as peukert is real for all battery chemistries.

What am I trying to say? It is impractical to use a battery this way in a residential setting as people want a battery to carry them over several hours - practically, most people will not use their battery above an average C10 discharge regardless of the type.

With the Lithium packs, we all know that there is the integrity of the connections to consider as things may get hot very fast at high C rates - yes Lithium is the superior chemistry and will last longer than similar lead acid under harsh use conditions but no one I know uses his Lithium battery pack 1C or more in a residential setting.

The bolded is very misleading and I mean very... Tell me in practice how you will run 120A on a 100AH lead acid without the lvd getting hit in seconds (no matter how low you set it) but this can be achieved with lithium rated above 1C. Savvy folks like you should not make this too complicated than it should. Lithium takes more c rates while maintaining stable voltage than LA, that is the main point of the discussion and it's as simple as that.

adrusa:


Bolded is not true bro. With 100A out of 100AH AGM, your voltage will sag so crazily that your inverter will shut down. One reason why people can take large amp out of even a small lithium battery is that lithium maintains a good voltage until almost the bitter very end. Lead acid on the other hand will lose voltage quickly as you load it.

100A out of 100AH AGM will probably last you about 5 minutes before you voltage becomes too low to sustain your inverter!

Go and Verify!

How will it achieve that, that 5 mins is a dream. The other aspect is that you will not get anything close to 100AH out of the fully charged 100AH LA..... It's like people think some of us only use lithium without any LA experience.

What kinds of inverter and LVD settings have you used boss?

The terminal voltage of a 12v lead acid battery is about 10.5v - there are cycle life vs DoD charts that tell us how many cycles a battery will do at X% DoD.

It is clear that a lead acid battery will do worse in cycle life vs Lithium at deep discharges - that does not make it impossible to abuse the lead acid battery within it's 1 hour rating.

adrusa:


Bolded is not true bro. With 100A out of 100AH AGM, your voltage will sag so crazily that your inverter will shut down. One reason why people can take large amp out of even a small lithium battery is that lithium maintains a good voltage until almost the bitter very end. Lead acid on the other hand will lose voltage quickly as you load it.

100A out of 100AH AGM will probably last you about 5 minutes before you voltage becomes too low to sustain your inverter!

Go and Verify!

God will save Niyi from una hand o.

Both Lithium and Lead Acid can sustain deep discharges - in general lead acid will have lower cycle life vs Lithium at thesame discharge rate.

The point to Saint2Ace is that no one runs their bank with such a load as to discharge it within one hour in a residential setting - everyone sizes his battery to run him a couple of hours at least so it does not help to use an extreme example

earthrealm:


Nice catch,
An oversight by Niyi, i suppose
Also that agm will become irreversibly damaged by such a huge leadacid life ending 1C drain

Lithium kicks ass, go and verify, and afterwards become obedient and yusful

adrusa:


Bolded is not true bro. With 100A out of 100AH AGM, your voltage will sag so crazily that your inverter will shut down. One reason why people can take large amp out of even a small lithium battery is that lithium maintains a good voltage until almost the bitter very end. Lead acid on the other hand will lose voltage quickly as you load it.

100A out of 100AH AGM will probably last you about 5 minutes before you voltage becomes too low to sustain your inverter!

Go and Verify!

You are right about this.....my lead acid voltage sags when I put heavy load on it. And I doubt it can sustain it for too long since the voltage sagging keeps increasing, as it will hit the LVD sooner than expected. Lead acid is good for daily and occasionally heavy usage. But it's no Brainer if you have money just invest directly in lithium, as its a better battery chemistry now. Maybe in the future something cheaper, lighter, durable, efficient and easily accessible with better discharging/charging battery technology will come along.

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Actually the backup time is in the range of 20 to 25 minutes when you load a healthy fully charged 100Ah battery with an 100a load.

Rough math - with a Peukert coefficient assumption of 1.3 - a 100Ah battery at C20 has capacity reduced to 40-41Ah at C1

You should research our dear Wilhelm *Peukert* and how battery capacity derates at high C rates - pertinent to note that the balance of Ah capacity in my rough math above was not lost, if you give the battery time to recover and the internal chemical processes to balance out, you can draw more energy from the system esp if you reduce the rate of discharge to normal limits

Again the point I made to @Saint2Ace that sparked all this frenzy is that no one uses their battery in a residential setting so as to discharge it within 1 hour and we should therefore be wary of using such an extreme scenario as an example so that non technical people are not misled.

There is no argument that Lithium chemistries are generally superior to lead acid, yet there should be no argument that there are valid and sensible use cases for lead acid as well.

ojeysky:


How will it achieve that, that 5 mins is a dream. The other aspect is that you will not get anything close to 100AH out of the a fully charged 100AH LA..... It's like people think some of us only use lithium without any LA experience.

When matters get like this we should focus on the hard science - you have taken one incomplete sentence out on an entire epistle that I wrote but you chose to ignore all the caveats and clarifying statements in that same paragraph and subsequent ones too.

I have provided an example of lead acid capacity derating in an earlier post/response to you to aid further research.

Also I took the liberty of highlighting key parts of my original response to @Saint2Ace below - do you have issues with the principles and concepts explained or only that one portion of a sentence

NiyiOmoIyunade:


One could run a 120a load on a 100Ah Lithium bank or a 100Ah AGM bank no trouble - in both cases the backup time will be super short (less than 1 hour) as peukert is real for all battery chemistries.

What am I trying to say? It is impractical to use a battery this way in a residential setting as people want a battery to carry them over several hours - practically, most people will not use their battery above an average C10 discharge

With the Lithium packs, we all know that there is the integrity of the connections to consider as things may get hot very fast at high C rates - yes Lithium is the superior chemistry and will last longer than similar lead acid under harsh use conditions but no one I know uses his Lithium battery pack 1C or more in a residential setting.

ojeysky:


The bolded is very misleading and I mean very... Tell me in practice how you will run 120A on a 100AH lead acid without the lvd getting hit in seconds (no matter how low you set it) but this can be achieved with lithium rated above 1C. Savvy folks like you should not make this too complicated than it should. Lithium takes more c rates while maintaining stable voltage than LA, that is the main point of the discussion and it's as simple as that.

The question that is rattling everyone is why?.
Why would you derate your batteries such. What exactly do you want to achieve.
I did not get it then, that is why asked whether he has a pure water factory to supply light to at night.

The truth is no sane would do it regularly, whether lithium or lead. I keep saying it and I am glad people are speaking. Batteries are just storage units with a shelf life, in renewable energy the goal is to maximize the use of the shelf life (cycle) as long has possible.

Then this behavior we are seeing lately on the thread about lithium and lead is sickening.

How many times has it been said on this forum lithium is superior to lead in chemistry !!!.

To prove points you paint sceneros that you can't practice regularly, and you know a lot people make their decisions entering renewable energy from this forum.

We are all learning, we should all put brakes on all this absurd sceneros and remind newbies on best practices for longevity.

ceaser:

I just don't know why this innoson guy has not thought of having BEVs in his lineup. Even if it is to start with a tiny car, affordable, small but with ample passenger capacity to see the adoption. I sincerely wish that with the resource and experience in his disposal, he dares that niche and start the revolution.

Yeah, I'll love a small battery powered ride like the Chinese Wuling for city runs with range under 200km

Eagba:
I'm not using panels cos I'm staying in a rented apartment now. but your whole system costed you how much? n I probably need inverter and battery names. thanks sir

Is there any law that restricts one from using solar panels in a rented apartment? My friends all use solar panels in a rented apartment. Also can't live in a house where the landlord has a chokehold on what I should do, as long as what I do do not negatively impact on the house.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Actually the backup time is in the range of 20 to 25 minutes when you load a healthy fully charged 100Ah battery with an 100a load.

Rough math - with a Peukert coefficient assumption of 1.3 - a 100Ah battery at C20 has capacity reduced to 40-41Ah at C1

You should research our dear Wilhelm *Peukert* and how battery capacity derates at high C rates - pertinent to note that the balance of Ah capacity in my rough math above was not lost, if you give the battery time to recover and the internal chemical processes to balance out, you can draw more energy from the system esp if you reduce the rate of discharge to normal limits

Again the point I made to @Saint2Ace that sparked all this frenzy is that no one uses their battery in a residential setting so as to discharge it within 1 hour and we should therefore be wary of using such an extreme scenario as an example so that non technical people are not misled.

There is no argument that Lithium chemistries are generally superior to lead acid, yet there should be no argument that there are valid and sensible use cases for lead acid as well.

Sir Niyi, I think its safe to say almost no 100AH LA battery can pass a 100 -120AH draw test for anything close to 20 minutes in real world use, mainly because that is not what they were designed for...while the Lithium chemistry is designed for exactly this kind of exigency.

Anyway,there are 100s of videos on youtube of people testing and even going over C1 ratings on Lithium but this was the closest thing I could find to anyone trying this on LA.....and I doubt any LA user would be surprised at the results of the tests.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uUCFSf3fyA&feature=youtu.be

samnaija:
The question that is rattling everyone is why?.
Why would you derate your batteries such. What exactly do you want to achieve.
I did not get it then, that is why asked whether he has a pure water factory to supply light to at night.

The truth is no sane would do it regularly, whether lithium or lead. I keep saying it and I am glad people are speaking. Batteries are just storage units with a shelf life, in renewable energy the goal is to maximize the use of the shelf life (cycle) as long has possible.

Then this behavior we are seeing lately on the thread about lithium and lead is sickening.

How many times has it been said on this forum lithium is superior to lead in chemistry !!!.

To prove points you paint sceneros that you can't practice regularly, and you know a lot people make their decisions entering renewable energy from this forum.

We are all learning, we should all put brakes on all this absurd sceneros and remind newbies on best practices for longevity.

My 2 cents is this, lately there is blame on both sides of the aisle on this repeated argument. LA clearly has some very important advantages over Lithium especially for a beginner, but clearly Lithium (especially LFP ) is the superior chemistry as a store of energy, simple.

When I first started reading this thread (donkey years ago) the advice was simple. If you are a newbie, stick to LA and follow the basics. After you have successfully passed the knowing how to use and not abuse LA test (2 years minimum if you ask me), then think of graduating to Lithium as it allows you to do so much more. I wonder why we can't keep the advice the same.

We don't need to spit at LA (for the Lithium lovers) nor do we need to trivialise or downplay the superiority of LFP as a battery chemistry ( for the LA adherents).

BTW, I have only ever used LA (and have thoroughly enjoyed it ) before anyone accuses me of bias.

Hmmm
While some of us speak heavy "grammar" to pass a simple message others still find it hard to understand simple English.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Actually the backup time is in the range of 20 to 25 minutes when you load a healthy fully charged 100Ah battery with an 100a load.

Rough math - with a Peukert coefficient assumption of 1.3 - a 100Ah battery at C20 has capacity reduced to 40-41Ah at C1

You should research our dear Wilhelm *Peukert* and how battery capacity derates at high C rates - pertinent to note that the balance of Ah capacity in my rough math above was not lost, if you give the battery time to recover and the internal chemical processes to balance out, you can draw more energy from the system esp if you reduce the rate of discharge to normal limits

Again the point I made to @Saint2Ace that sparked all this frenzy is that no one uses their battery in a residential setting so as to discharge it within 1 hour and we should therefore be wary of using such an extreme scenario as an example so that non technical people are not misled.

There is no argument that Lithium chemistries are generally superior to lead acid, yet there should be no argument that there are valid and sensible use cases for lead acid as well.

You are talking peukert and mathematics am talking practice and then you've now added a if conditions. Once again, put a super healthy 100AH Lead acid and load the 120a as you earlier said tell me how many minutes it took before the inverter lvd was reached because that is the main discussion. The caveat which you are now introducing with regards to all those mathematics and if conditions were not in your initial post.

By the way interesting how this thread goes, we discuss battery use cases for a while then we go on a short break to take commercials

AndroBlaze:


Sir Niyi, I think its safe to say almost no 100AH LA battery can pass a 100 -120AH draw test for anything close to 20 minutes in real world use, mainly because that is not what they were designed for...while the Lithium chemistry is designed for exactly this kind of exigency.

Anyway,there are 100s of videos on youtube of people testing and even going over C1 ratings on Lithium but this was the closest thing I could find to anyone trying this on LA.....and I doubt any LA user would be surprised at the results of the tests.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uUCFSf3fyA&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for sharing that YouTube link, he added just 76a load and voltage dropped instantly to 11v, at this point most inverter lvd will have been hit. Going further, within few seconds it was at 10v+. Now imagine if it was a 120a load everything will caput within few seconds. I have used lead acid and now lithium to appreciate the limit of both chemistries.

Up till today I use both of them depending on scenario, and for me I only wish I knew and started using Lithium much earlier. This time around people on this thread have enormous information to start early and not waste funds.

Finally a LA user will appreciate lithium performance when he/she finally experience it....I guess that is what makes Lithium users to be excited, it's never a spit at LA.

mctfopt:


Yeah, I'll love a small battery powered ride like the Chinese Wuling for city runs with range under 200km

This is something we could group buy on if it can fit naija human sizes(not the portable Chinese human ) ...the main challenge though still be maintenance since there won't be a service center nearby.

samnaija:
The question that is rattling everyone is why?.
Why would you derate your batteries such. What exactly do you want to achieve.
I did not get it then, that is why asked whether he has a pure water factory to supply light to at night.

The truth is no sane would do it regularly, whether lithium or lead. I keep saying it and I am glad people are speaking. Batteries are just storage units with a shelf life, in renewable energy the goal is to maximize the use of the shelf life (cycle) as long has possible.

Then this behavior we are seeing lately on the thread about lithium and lead is sickening.

How many times has it been said on this forum lithium is superior to lead in chemistry !!!.

To prove points you paint sceneros that you can't practice regularly, and you know a lot people make their decisions entering renewable energy from this forum.

We are all learning, we should all put brakes on all this absurd sceneros and remind newbies on best practices for longevity.

Instead of you making degenerative statement you should have simply asked....you think I love to derate my cells for fun ba..... When I was pulling above 5kw clearly stated the equipments consuming the load and with the screenshot of 11% I clearly stated why my cells got down to that level. I could safely do all that without much fear of battery damage because am using lithium.... that was the point instead you started throwing abusive jokes at me.

samnaija:


I wrote it up there 48v 600ah. How did you get your calculations (150ah *4).?

Tubular batteries.

I have 3 arrays each is maxed out 4200 watts.

Which brand of Tubular do you use?

There are no if conditions boss, battery capacity is tested after the battery has reached full charge and then allowed to rest for the required time - these are tests I have done and seen good quality lead acid batteries derate as expected.

It is possible a side of this divide is determined to win this argument at all costs.

I saw the video - dude took a generic brand el cheapo looking lead acid battery, failed to charge it properly through absorb and float and then ran a load test and this is what you folks are using to corroborate your position on lead acid behaviour.

All batteries are not created equal and the tested battery was not even allowed to charge up to 90% capacity.

I think someone in the comments gave our tester some pointers on what was wrong with the test.

ojeysky:


You are talking peukert and mathematics am talking practice and then you've now added a if conditions. Once again, put a super healthy 100AH Lead acid and load the 120a as you earlier said tell me how many minutes it took before the inverter lvd was reached because that is the main discussion. The caveat which you are now introducing with regards to all those mathematics and if conditions were not in your initial post.

By the way interesting how this thread goes, we discuss battery use cases for a while then we go on a short break to take commercials

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Actually the backup time is in the range of 20 to 25 minutes when you load a healthy fully charged 100Ah battery with an 100a load.

Rough math - with a Peukert coefficient assumption of 1.3 - a 100Ah battery at C20 has capacity reduced to 40-41Ah at C1

You should research our dear Wilhelm *Peukert* and how battery capacity derates at high C rates - pertinent to note that the balance of Ah capacity in my rough math above was not lost, if you give the battery time to recover and the internal chemical processes to balance out, you can draw more energy from the system esp if you reduce the rate of discharge to normal limits

Again the point I made to @Saint2Ace that sparked all this frenzy is that no one uses their battery in a residential setting so as to discharge it within 1 hour and we should therefore be wary of using such an extreme scenario as an example so that non technical people are not misled.

There is no argument that Lithium chemistries are generally superior to lead acid, yet there should be no argument that there are valid and sensible use cases for lead acid as well.

@NiyiOmoIyunade, I initially didn't want to respond to your earlier quote cos I saw the "merit" of the caveat you stated but ur phrasing at the end seemed to signify something else and even at that I was willing to still let it slide till I saw the bolded and Ur efforts not to be misunderstood and I laughed cos u did exactly the same thing.

The main reason I made that statement was to caution the moniker I quoted from the subtle insult he wrote ( which he still buttressed quoting Ur write up and repeating the same words).

You actually ignored the point I was trying to make and only concentrated on "the actual physics" while leaving out the main message of the write-up.

While I appreciate your indepth knowledge on the subject matter, I would advise that sometimes you take a few steps back and understand individual scenerio before making some inputs.

Try and be calming down, no be everything big English dey solve...... Cheers

My main goal is to pass on correct information as I know it and sometimes clarify or expand on what someone else has said. I strictly do not take sides in people's arguments or peeves because it is possible to be very wrong and yet be unable to see it and hold firmly to that position.

saint2ace:


@NiyiOmoIyunade, I initially didn't want to respond to your earlier quote cos I saw "merit" of the caveat you stated but ur phrasing at the end seemed to signify something else and even at that I was willing to still let it slide till I saw the bolded and Ur efforts not to be misunderstood and I laughed cos u did exactly the same thing.

The main reason I made that statement was to caution the moniker I quoted from the subtle insult he wrote ( which he still buttressed quoting Ur write up and repeating the same words).

You actually ignored the point I was trying to make and only concentrated on "the actual physics" while leaving out the main message of the write-up.

While I appreciate your indepth knowledge on the subject matter, I would advise that sometimes you take a few steps back and understand individual scenerio before making some inputs.

Try and be calming down, no be everything big English dey solve...... Cheers

You may be misinterpreting the video boss.

Please see below - the tester did not give the batteries a chance to absorb and float properly - at end of bulk a lead acid battery is about 85% charged whereas a capacity test needs the battery to start from 100%.

Battery charge and discharge are electrically driven chemical reactions that need time to complete - there are 2 points when one may assess battery capacity with some certainty that the chemical reactions are complete - 0% and 100%

ojeysky:


Thanks for sharing that YouTube link, he added just 76a load and voltage dropped instantly to 11v, at this point most inverter lvd will have been hit. Going further, within few seconds it was at 10v+. Now imagine if it was a 120a load everything will caput within few seconds. I have used lead acid and now lithium to appreciate the limit of both chemistries.

Up till today I use both of them depending on scenario, and for me I only wish I knew and started using Lithium much earlier. This time around people on this thread have enormous information to start early and not waste funds.

Finally a LA user will appreciate lithium performance when he/she finally experience it....I guess that is what makes Lithium users to be excited, it's never a spit at LA.

Penuelseun:
12pcs 12v 200ah batteries in a 4s3p configuration makes 48v 600ah battery bank

I don't really understand how this works and how 12 pieces 200ah will amount to 600ah.

Maybe using A * B methodology would help.

Can you please elaborate on it?

Donbigi2:

Do you know where I can get genuine battery? 200ah or 220

https://me3energy.ng/batteries.html

https://invertermall.com.ng/product-category/batteries/

https://swiftermall.com/34-inverter-batteries

https://www.solarkobo.com/shop

Expert in the house over to you. Please help highlight suspicious site here, and also advise on genuine ones here by arranging them in appropriate order!

NiyiOmoIyunade:
There are no if conditions boss, battery capacity is tested after the battery has reached full charge and then allowed to rest for the required time - these are tests I have done and seen good quality lead acid batteries derate as expected.

It is possible a side of this divide is determined to win this argument at all costs.

I saw the video - dude took a generic brand el cheapo looking lead acid battery, failed to charge it properly through absorb and float and then ran a load test and this is what you folks are using to corroborate your position on lead acid behaviour.

All batteries are not created equal and the tested battery was not even allowed to charge up to 90% capacity.

I think someone in the comments gave our tester some pointers on what was wrong with the test.

Did you just forgot that you wrote the text below:

esp if you reduce the rate of discharge to normal limits

There is a saying in my dialect "A Saturday that will be good, it's Friday that we will know" that is the case of the battery used in that video Vs the best lead acid battery. Bros let's stop talking theory:

1. There is no way you will discharge 120a from the best of 100AH lead acid and not reach the minimum possible lvd of all the inverter within a short period

2. There is no way you will be discharging at that rate and get a capacity close to 100Ah out of the lead acid

3. I like that you claim you've done this test before please share video proof and result. I am not scared of being wrong, I will be happy to apologize and learn from it but for now it makes no sense in practice.