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Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 4:38am On Sep 19, 2022 |
midnight378:In other words, bestiality is objectively wrong with God but to you it is subjective |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 4:44am On Sep 19, 2022 |
Tamaratonye1:As for bestiality, it is highly subjective if you need no permission from an animal to kill and eat it. BTW one of the conditions is that it poses no harm to the society. Would it still be wrong? Is there no UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE of everything that exist? You evaded the question: Logically, infinite regress of cause and effect is impossible. It has to terminate somewhere and that is the where the Uncaused First Cause of Everything is waiting |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 4:49am On Sep 19, 2022 |
FemiAjani:The subjective code of a deity makes it objective for man. Sometimes, a government steps in to fulfill the same role. The age 18 years old as a baseline for consent is an objective rule made by government. If a child is 17 years 9 months, you cannot have sex with her as an adult without the risk of legal infraction. You have no point dear! |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 4:53am On Sep 19, 2022 |
midnight378:Objective standard is any standard you can't bend at your whim. Example is legal age in most western cultures set at 18 years old. Even if it changes to 17 years old, it is still an objective standard for citizens. A man who had sex with a 17 years 9 months old girl would be attested for rape |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 5:01am On Sep 19, 2022 |
Tamaratonye1:Your argument seem to say that Religion and Science are equivalent in their sphere of reference and that All religions are bad (without giving any content reason). The third point you were totally off as you didn't address the fact that Atheism is a belief system. |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 5:04am On Sep 19, 2022 |
Tamaratonye1:Subjective morality is absolute!? You amaze me. |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 5:06am On Sep 19, 2022 |
chryssanthe:Congratulations too! |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 5:10am On Sep 19, 2022 |
FemiAjani:Except your argument is that it is possible to unravel God as defined by Christians with science. For God is the Uncaused First Cause of Everything thus beyond time t=0 when energy, time and space didn't exist |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 5:15am On Sep 19, 2022 |
FemiAjani:Archeology doesn't tell a story that doesn't exist already. By the Christian definition of God, He is the immaterial UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE of Everything. Being godless is a choice not to have the interference of the Uncaused First Cause in your life. He can't be explained away |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 5:17am On Sep 19, 2022 |
Near1:Everything without an physical evidence doesn't exist: is this your point? |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 5:18am On Sep 19, 2022 |
Near1:You've said NOTHING either! |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 5:21am On Sep 19, 2022 |
1000WaysToLive:At least it is good that you are not taking religion and science as opposites like some "educated ignorant" Atheists |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 5:24am On Sep 19, 2022 |
1000WaysToLive:18 year old is age of consent in the western societies is an objective moral law set by the government. Sleeping with a girl of 17 years 9 months will send you to jail as raping a child. |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by Near1: 5:32am On Sep 19, 2022 |
chryssanthe: If Christians need god to be good themselves, by all means they should continue believing. If they're so unempathetic that they cannot arrive at things like altruism and sympathy by themselves, but instead need command guidance to tell them how to behave normally, please, let us not disabuse them of their faith. All the theists here cannot see a way for morality to arise without their own brand of religious faith. Does that speak about human nature, or does that speak about their own baselines? 2 Likes |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by Near1: 5:36am On Sep 19, 2022 |
Tamaratonye1: In any miscommunication, there are at least two sources of the problem: the speaker and the listener. In this case, I think the speaker hasn't sized up his audience very well. 2 Likes |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by chryssanthe(f): 11:56am On Sep 19, 2022 |
TenQ: You are simply starting with another "thing" that needs another first cause to exist! It has to terminate somewhere and that is the where the Uncaused First Cause of Everything is waiting Where are the citations to support this statement? You are simply using wishful thinking and more begging the question. Somehow you've set up your "everything" as extra special because you can't stand the thought that your "everything" isn't all that special. Your god is conveniently unprovable. (So are invisible, magical unicorns) If you were really honest with yourself and with us you'd do what most physicists say, "At this time we do not know". But theists cannot be honest and can't stand the thought that their powerful god isn't automatically the answer to gaps in scientific knowledge! Therefore, you're bound and determined to shove your god in that gap and claim victory no matter that there is zero evidence for a god! It's religious hubris! |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by chryssanthe(f): 12:03pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
Near1: Yeah, it's like they have no self control and the only thing holding them back from murder, rape and robbery is belief in fairy dust. Atheistic, secular countries have the lowest crime rates in the world. Theistic countries have the highest crime rates and often their countries are in constant chaos. The most religious countries in the world have the most poverty. Atheistic countries have the most social secular programs and the least poverty. In Finland there are no religious private schools. None.... zip....nada.... All schools are secular public schools and everyone, from the very rich to the poor get the same education. About 62% of the Finish population is atheistic and it has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. From the Federal Brueau of US Prisons, in 2020 there were 139,002 people in federal prisons and 141 of them identified as atheists. That is 0.1 percent of the federal prison population. If atheists have no foundation for moral standards then they should be the most represented in prisons and countries with the highest atheist populations should be out murdering each other and eating babies for dinner yet this isn't the case. |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by 1000WaysToLive(m): 12:07pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
YOU SAID: "The subjective code of a deity makes it objective for man." That's not how it works, full stop. A gods subjective code is what it is. Subjective. Subjective to god, subjective to man. Subjective to your house pet. It's subjectivity is a description of it's origin. God commands are not facts, they are opinions, according to you. YOU SAID: "Sometimes, a government steps in to fulfill the same role." Our government concerns itself with legality, not morality - and governments are explicitly relative - not subjective -or- objective. As you're aware, there are many things which you would find immoral that are not illegal....as well as many things which are illegal that you would not find immoral. YOU SAID: "The age 18 years old as a baseline for consent is an objective rule made by government. If a child is 17 years 9 months, you cannot have sex with her as an adult without the risk of legal infraction." Sure, if the age of consent is 18, then it follows that sex with someone under 18 is illegal - but a thing being illegal does not equate to a thing being immoral. Perhaps what you've meant to say is that you believe gods hands us laws, not an objective moral code? All fine and well, but there are more sets of laws in the world that we don't follow, than ones that do. I have no interest in god-laws. I'm not subject to god-laws. There is no moral imperative that I follow god-laws. TenQ: 1 Like |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by 1000WaysToLive(m): 12:14pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
YOU SAID: "Objective standard is any standard you can't bend at your whim." That is not what an objective standard is...at all. An objective standard is one which accurately reports those facts it purports to report. Can you bend them to your will? Absolutely..and people commonly do. YOU SAID: "Example is legal age in most western cultures set at 18 years old. Even if it changes to 17 years old, it is still an objective standard for citizens." A persons age is objective - it is true or false of the object (the person in question) that they are equal to or greater than 18 years old. We do like to think our laws are based in facts. This is irrelevant to morality, however..if morality is not objective. If morality is a gods subjective code. TenQ: 1 Like |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by chryssanthe(f): 12:25pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
TenQ:https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/cgi-bin/uy/webpages.cgi?/logicalfallacies/Shifting-of-the-Burden-of-Proof https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(philosophy) Logically, infinite regress of cause and effect is impossible. When spacetime breaks down at planck-time, all scientific laws break down, space and time are no more and your logic becomes meaningless. That is (currently) the model best fitting available data (measuring microwave background radiation and brightness of Supernovae). It has to terminate somewhere and that is the where the Uncaused First Cause of Everything is waitingEverything has a cause! except *inject your favourite fantasy* Its called "special pleading", and its a logical fallacy! But lets grant you for a moment that there WAS a (first) cause, creating everything. Please demonstrate why it has to be all powerful. I claim it needs to be just powerful enough to create what actually WAS created. I claim that this first cause was NOT able to create anything else than the universe/multiverse we actually live in! Prove me wrong! Oh, and you were objectively wrong about objective morals. You know why? Because its a fact that you were wrong (according to the definition of objective morals), and this is not influenced by your opinions, feelings or interpretations, or your gods for that matter! |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by 1000WaysToLive(m): 12:31pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
LoL...... How it started.... Discard God, morality becomes subjective and there would be nothing that is wrong. ....how it's going. The subjective code of a deity I guess..then, according to this line of reasoning, with a god..nothing is wrong? Bestiality, necromancers (l-o-l)cannibalism, incest, etc. TenQ: |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by Near1: 12:55pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
chryssanthe: Roughly 65% of all Americans identify as Christian. If religion was such a moral lode-star, why do these same Christians complain about high crime? I'd think such a Christian country would be notably safe and loving. Yet they have these high crime rates, and a distinct refusal to help the poor even though Jesus had something to say about a camel and a needle's eye. If you have to get your morality from command-guidance, how moral are you, really? If it takes the threat of Hell to make you behave, are you really a good person? I'm glad I don't need that horseshit to make me a decent human. But those who need it, I say put some more Bibles out in hotel rooms. I'm sure that will solve it all. 1 Like |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by midnight378: 1:01pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
TenQ: you don't know that. Absolutely not . No. 1. there are many logics... , and you don't know (nor have you justified the one you're using) which one applies to the conditions you're claiming your logic applies to . You have not demonstrated there is a universal logic that applies to all situations . Even in this universe at a singularity, your logic does not apply. Fail. Near a black hole your logic does not apply...... which logic are you using and how is it you know it applies to the reality you're talking about ? Hint: You don't . Justify the logic you're using , or stop talking about logics. 2. you know nothing except 5% of this universe . You know nothing about the reality in which your gods exist . You know nothing about anything in those conditions . Your gods are not bound by your logic . You know nothing about the reality , logic or cause and effect that would have been external to this universe... you're making claims about "has to terminate somewhere" you know nothing about..... Fail again. 3. Is this your first debate ? These are rookie errors. "Terminates" assumes space-time exists in the reality without this universe , (and contradicts the theology of an eternal/timeless God and its environment). you know nothing about that reality , and as far as we know space-time began at the Big Bang. Using ANY temporal reference ("terminate" is unsupported/unfounded/unwarranted. Typical Christian ignorant misrepresentations. 1 Like |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by Near1: 1:08pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
TenQ: When one argument has evidence, and the other does not, I know what I lend credence to. I have beliefs and I have knowledge, but I'm careful to not confuse the two. Beliefs need no evidence, but claimed "knowledge" does. And here you are asserting that humans cannot be moral without your god. If you expect me to accept that without picking your brain, you might be in for a little ride. Is this a tacit admission that you have no evidence? If so, you should simply short-circuit a long argument and admit as much right now. Because you and I both know you do not have any. And without evidence, I am as entitled to my own perspective as you are. That's subjectivity, my guy. If you get to make bald claims bereft of evidence, I get to say you're wrong and what can you use to argue that? 10k says you're going to try to prove your case, even as you're here trying to disparage the value of evidence. Oh, that's right, you don't have any. No wonder. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by Tamaratonye1(f): 1:28pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
TenQ:That isn't a logical restriction. It may be the case, but it's not because of the laws of logic. And this simply leads to a paradox as something always having been is as difficult to conceive whether we call it necessary being or an infinite regress. It's essentially the same problem. So God has essentially the same problem as you think the other has in that his mode of existence doesn't make sense. 1 Like |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by Tamaratonye1(f): 1:35pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
TenQ:You're using subjective and objective incorrectly and essentially making up your own definitions. And the way you've done it leads to an equivocation aside from being little more than a might makes right argument. What makes you think that God subjectively deciding X makes X objective for us? 1 Like |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by Tamaratonye1(f): 1:37pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
TenQ:Standards aren't literal things and so they are neither bendable nor not bendable. You'll have to explain what you mean without the figurative language otherwise we can only guess at your meaning. 1 Like |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 1:39pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
Tamaratonye1:The Universe originated 13.8 billion years ago from a gravitational singularity. Time, Space and Matter with ALL the Laws of Physics started simultaneously at this time. Can you logically or scientifically prove that infinite regress of cause and effect is possible? |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by Tamaratonye1(f): 1:42pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
TenQ:No, that is not my argument at all. I'm not going to restate it as I have no idea why you have such difficulty understanding the plain meaning of what I said. If you don't understand the particulars then ask some questions. You seem to be reading a lot into it that isn't there in what appears to be the consequence of motivated reasoning. As to my claiming that all religion is bad, no I am not claiming that, and I even repeated that I didn't think there would be much change, so you appear to want to ignore what I did write in favor of what you want to believe that I believe. You're simply attributing things to me that are incorrect, possibly because you're under the influence of stereotypes about atheists that you hold. What I did say is that I thought some people might improve their behavior as a result of losing their faith. And some people, I'm sure, would be worse. I don't think there's a general, "religion is bad," though my mind is not made up on the question rather than my thinking that it is not the case that religion is bad. I'm just not sure. And anyway, the question was about Christianity, not all religion, so you've moved the goal posts here. As to the third point not addressing your contention that atheism is a belief, since the point you raised had nothing to do with that but rather was a question about reality then there is a very simple reason for my not addressing it: it wasn't relevant. I'm beginning to suspect rather strongly that you have very poor reasoning skills, an active imagination, a bigoted outlook on atheism, and a strong need to believe that there is something inherently wrong with atheists and atheism. As an addendum, I'll make a suggestion. When we have a strong opinion or theory about something, it's very easy to have a tendency to view any responses those views generate through the lens of that theory or opinion. Thus many of the things you've misattributed to me here appear to be because you conceive of certain problems in a certain way, and then view all responses as examples of objections you've previously considered and rejected. In this way, you're not really listening to what the other is saying and essentially only looking to confirm what you already believe. This isn't bad or shameful, I'm sure that I'm guilty of it as well many times. I don't know what to suggest other than that you try to have a more open mind. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by Tamaratonye1(f): 1:46pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
TenQ:Subjective moralities, plural, can be absolute. One article defines it thus: "Moral absolutism is the position that there are universal ethical standards that apply to actions regardless of context." Thus, if a person's subjective view of the rightness or wrongness of an act takes into account the context of the act, it is not absolute. If a subjective view of the rightness or wrongness of an act is true regardless of the context, then that person's subjective morality is absolute. 1 Like |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by TenQ: 1:56pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
Near1:Have you ever seen an intelligent communication without an intelligent source? If you go to the beach and you see written on the sand "TenQ likes Near1", will you conclude that the waves or a crab wrote it ? Whenever you see systems like a House with functional doors, Windows, kitchen and bedroom, do you think that the storm must have done it! When you see the DNA (a complex library of data and information), you think this was a random coincidence? What you are asserting is the scientific impossibility that nothing created everything? |
Re: Honest Question To The Christians by chryssanthe(f): 1:57pm On Sep 19, 2022 |
Tamaratonye1: "Killing is bad" is an example of absolute morality. Killing is bad, no matter what. Now, the reality is that killing in self defense is not all that bad, isnt it? God proclaiming "Thou shalt not kill" is subjective and absolute morality. Absolute because, see above. Subjective, because of someone proclaiming his personal view to be relevant instead of objective facts. I am not holding my breath, tho, that Tenq will understand or admit to his mistake. 1 Like |
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