jasminer:


Genesis chapter 6 vs 5 - 8

5. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

For the Bible to say that the wickedness of man was great, then it means that people did abominable things then.
A world where everyone was constantly thinking of evil things and carrying them out? Constantly trying to outdo each other's wickedness of the previous day?
If God didn't wipe out that world, do you think we'll even be talking about morality?

Such a world deserved to be wiped out by God.

This is a Red Herring Fallacy -- and if I might add -- a very careless bait and switch you tried to pull off thinking I wouldn't catch on quick. I guess it was only a matter of time before you decided to take this route of blatant dishonesty. Madam, let me refresh your memory:

uche40:
Are you positive that ALL instances of genocide and infanticide carried out by God in the Bible only occurred when God was provoked in an instance of war? A "Yes" or "No" will suffice.

jasminer:


You mean commanded by God. Yes

Following which I asked you to describe the prevailing war scenario which compelled God to wipe out more than half of the living organisms on the planet, and then you went on a ridiculous tangent, talking about the evil sins people committed. How does any of that describe a war scenario?

This recent action of yours leads me to question your true motive for discussing here. It's becoming quite clear to me that you're arguing only because you want to win an argument, not because you want to arrive at, or establish any facts. You are clouded by your Christian bias and will make any arguments to justify your position even if it involves wilful distortion of facts or cheating yourself out of a tough position by switching the argument. You haven't answered my question and you know it.

jasminer:

Mathew 18 vs 18, Whatever you allow on earth will be allowed in heaven. Man started war, man reaped war. If God were to act on everything that doesn't please Him, would you as an atheist still be alive? Would there be any other religion apart from Christianity?

This response is a complete non-sequitur and has nothing to do with the post you replied to. Please sit back and read it again carefully. I've reposted it below. I'm sensing that you have difficulties following logical propositions. Your entire arguments on this thread seem to rely an awful lot on special pleading, begging the question and red herrings.

uche40:
This assumes that an omnipotent and omniscient deity who advocates peace, love, mercy and forgiveness, does not have the capacity to prevent conflict and fighting among neighboring countries. He also cannot think up other means to avert conflict and ensure peace and harmony between these countries, while still ensuring that his plan for man is fulfilled. You have not answered my question.

=================================

jasminer:
God has reserved one day when He will speak wether you asked Him to speak or not, that's called the day of judgement, until that day comes, you'll have to pray and fast for Him to speak to you or wait for your karma for whatever evil you commit.

Thought terminating cliché.

jasminer:
In the bible days, a old child of an enemy you killed poses a future threat to you and your children.

Maybe. But guess what? By then, he'd be an ADULT, and not a DAY OLD INFANT.

jasminer:


If your provisions fail to prevent further attacks nkor?
So no child has died in US targeted operations before?

Which question have I not answered?

If my provisions fail, I'll simply step down abeg. There'll always be somebody to replace me.
Your question no hot reach as you take reason am.
If any child died during whatever it is US soldiers did, that's on them. E concern them. I no send them message.

Now shame me and answer my question on the rape issue.

jasminer:
It's Christianity that's in the question here and so it must be discussed according to the words of the Bible and only according to the words of the Bible, not what anyone says.
You can't discuss Christianity and it's doctrines from the standpoint of an atheist and if that's what we're doing... Let me come and be going because the Gospel of salvation to them that perish is foolishness but to them that believe, it's the power of God unto salvation.

Sorry dear but you don't get to dictate the rules and policies of our conversation. We're not in a church auditorium where circlejerking and regurgitation of religious platitudes is the norm. We're in an internet chatroom where multiple individuals with various beliefs, worldviews and ideas are free to express their opinions about certain ideologies. For your information, there is something called the Philosophy of Religion (I know you claimed later on in this post that Christianity isn't a religion, but we'll be bursting that erroneous canard very shortly).

Philosophy of Religion is the branch of philosophy that is concerned with the philosophical study of religion, including arguments over the nature and existence of God, religious language, miracles, prayer, the problem of evil, and the relationship between religion and other value-systems such as science and ethics. It is often regarded as a part of Metaphysics, especially insofar as it is interested in understanding what it is for something to exist, although arguably it also touches on issues commonly dealt with in Epistemology, Ethics, Logic and the Philosophy of Language. It asks such questions as "Are there sound reasons to think that God does (or does not) exist?", "If there is a God, then what is he like?", "What, if anything, would give us good reason to believe that a miracle has occurred?", "What is the relationship between faith and reason?", "Does petitionary prayer make sense?" It does not ask "What is God?", as that would assume the existence of God, and that God has a knowable nature, which is more the territory of theology (which usually considers the existence of God as axiomatic, or self-evident, and merely seeks to justify or support religious claims).
https://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_philosophy_of_religion.html

So your insistence that Christianity CAN and MUST only be discussed in the context of Biblical understanding is disingenuous, or naive at best. The reality here -- which I can parse from your telling reluctance to view your beliefs from an objective and unbiased lens -- is that you afraid of having your beliefs called out to be baseless and unjustified. You can keep claiming otherwise till your face turns blue. You can keep finding solace in the written words of the Holy fictional novel of your choice, but I know deep down, THAT is your biggest fear.

jasminer:
1. Christianity isn't a religion, it's a way of life. Christian means Christ like.

That's cute. But it would do you a whole lot of good to come to the realization that "religion" and "way of life" are not mutually exclusive and, in fact, can be argued to be largely synonymous. As a religion, Christianity is an acknowledgement of a set of core beliefs and practices embedded in the Holy Bible. As a way of life, it is a relationship between Christians and God the Father, through faith in Jesus Christ the Son, expressed by the power of the Holy Spirit. However, let me start by addressing your claim that Christianity is not a religion.

Now, it is a common argument that religion is hard to define properly. Nevertheless, there are some characteristics -- which scholars mostly agree -- are peculiar to a set of practices and/or ideologies that qualify them to be called RELIGIONS. Having established this, please answer "True" or "False" to the following statements:

1) You believe in a supernatural being, or at least, a supernatural realm.

2) Your belief system distinguishes between sacredness and profanity.

3) There are ritual acts focused on sacredness in your belief (Holy Communion, Baptism, The Eucharist etc.).

4) Your belief system has a moral code.

5) Your belief system affirms experiences of spiritual and supernatural "feelings".

6) Your belief system includes prayer as one of its' central activities.

7) Your belief system has a worldview as a whole and the place of the individual therein.

Your belief system has a disciplined lifestyle based on the worldview of what your Holy text teaches.

9) Your belief system encourages "group gatherings" bound together by all of the above.

If you answered "True" to, at least, 6 out of the 9 statements listed up there, then my sister, your belief system IS A RELIGION. You can pull up scriptures from morning till night arguing otherwise, but you cannot reasonably deny that at the very least, your belief system has an overwhelming number of religious aspects attached to it.

jasminer:
2. I can tell the mind of God because it's written in the Bible... He made known His ways to Moses, His acts to the children of Israel. Psalm 103 vs 7

Actually, you're dead wrong.

You can NOT fully comprehend or understand the mind of God. You can have a PERSONAL knowledge of God, based on your SUBJECTIVE interpretation of scriptures -- which is what you meant here. People interprete scriptures differently, and that's why you have multiple denominations within Christianity, with slight variations of the Christian doctrine across these denominations. That's why you have people arguing over tithes. That's why you have people arguing over the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. It is precisely because you can NOT have a COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of God's nature, his mind, his plans, his will and his objectives.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
- Isaiah 55:8-9

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"
- Romans 11:33-34

Behold, these are but the outskirts of his ways, and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand?
- Job 26:14

God is described as infinite. Humans are supposedly finite and have limited capacity to fully understand every aspect of his being. Some might argue that the concept of original sin perfectly explains this limitation of man. It is even asserted in the Bible that God keeps certain secrets hidden from mankind, and reveals only what he wishes mankind to know. So, the idea that you can get a complete grasp of God's thought process by merely reading the scriptures is wishful thinking.

The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
- Deuteronomy 29:29

jasminer:
[b]So even if a million people come and say God said this, as long as it contradicts the Bible, they are all wrong.

Since you just came back from the moon, I'll clue you in: God himself routinely bypasses and/or outrightly contradicts his own commandments numerous times in the Old Testament just to favor his own people and punish the "sinners" and "evil doers". For instance, he commands not to kill, but he orders and orchestrates the killings and destruction of countless individuals and cities in the Old Testament. King David committed many acts of murder in the Old Testament. Samson did the same. They were instruments of God. Today they are considered to be heroes of the Bible. So your criteria is feeble and irrelevant.

jasminer:
And if you claim this is what Christianity is about, quote a scripture to back it up.

Request granted. I'll quote four.

We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully
- Romans 12:6-8

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you
- John 14:26

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams
- Acts 2:17

Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.
- Matthew 1:19-21

Christianity asserts that God desires to have a personal relationship with humans, and therefore he can speak to people through multiple means which include through dreams, thoughts, visions, the Holy Spirit, and even through other people. Reading the Bible is just one out of many means and it can be argued that it is often subject to misinterpretation.

jasminer:
You're only obligated to believe what the Bible says about God. Anything outside that is double standards.

This assumes that God can't speak to people through other means besides the Bible. Thankfully, we've already addressed this faulty assumption.

If I'm being honest, I'm getting tired of this roundabout argument where you use bland sophistry and hermeneutics to protect your position. I'll cut to the chase here. I brought this up previously but you swiftly avoided it. Well, I've entertained your game of musical chairs long enough.

Your claim that God is the source or arbiter of moral values contains an unsupported assertion: GOD EXISTS. Please provide empirical evidence supporting this assertion.

uche40:


This is a Red Herring Fallacy -- and if I might add -- a very careless bait and switch you tried to pull off thinking I wouldn't catch on quick. I guess it was only a matter of time before you decided to take this route of blatant dishonesty. Madam, let me refresh your memory:





Following which I asked you to describe the prevailing war scenario which compelled God to wipe out more than half of the living organisms on the planet, and then you went on a ridiculous tangent, talking about the evil sins people committed. How does any of that describe a war scenario?

This recent action of yours leads me to question your true motive for discussing here. It's becoming quite clear to me that you're arguing only because you want to win an argument, not because you want to arrive at, or establish any facts. You are clouded by your Christian bias and will make any arguments to justify your position even if it involves wilful distortion of facts or cheating yourself out of a tough position by switching the argument. You haven't answered my question and you know it.

You mean commanded by God... Yes
All cases where God commanded people to kill were in a time of war.

The scenario of the flood was carried out by God himself not by man. And he did it after they refused to listen to His warnings just like he did in Sodom, Gomorrah and the surrounding cities. Just like he wiped out the giant tribes of Emims, Anakims, Horims, Zamzummins, Caphtorims, Avims etc who initially occupied Canaan.

Noah preached to the occupants of the pre flood world for 100years but not one person listened to Him, that's enough condemnation for them.

Destruction by God can't be called genocide, it's simply the owner of life taking back the life He gave because they crossed His word and refused to repent after He sent warnings. If Nineveh hadn't repented when God sent Jonah to warn them, it'll have been destroyed as well.

The dinosaurs, tryannosaurus, dragons etc that went extinct nkor, will you blame God for that as well because I can tell you for a fact that God wiped them out of existence because they were all products of man's perversion in the early days. Do you wish dinosaurs still exist today? Aren't you grateful for the giant asteroid that "coincidentally" wiped them all out?

uche40:


This response is a complete non-sequitur and has nothing to do with the post you replied to. Please sit back and read it again carefully. I've reposted it below. I'm sensing that you have difficulties following logical propositions. Your entire arguments on this thread seem to rely an awful lot on special pleading, begging the question and red herrings.

=================================

Thought terminating cliché.

Maybe. But guess what? By then, he'd be an ADULT, and not a DAY OLD INFANT.

I'm happy my responses sound like pleading cus your answers are too agressive and outrightly insulting over my own beliefs simply because it doesn't go down well with you.

God has the power to avert anything but HE WONT DO IT IF:
1. YOU DON'T PRAY FOR HIS INTERVENTION
2. IT DOESN'T CONFLICT HIS WORD


A day old threat or an adult threat, a threat is a threat and if it's in war, it should be eliminated.

kingxsamz:


If my provisions fail, I'll simply step down abeg. There'll always be somebody to replace me.
Your question no hot reach as you take reason am.
If any child died during whatever it is US soldiers did, that's on them. E concern them. I no send them message.

Now shame me and answer my question on the rape issue.

Whoever replaces you, will strike the enemy not minding the casualties because that's what has to be done.
==============
On the rape issue, the worst name you can give the men taking the women as wives is forced marriage but it's still not even forced.

By the then Jewish traditions, any woman chosen by any man in such a scenario is automatically betrothed to that man and hence she's an Israeli already.

After she has been chosen or betrothed, she's allowed one full month fully cared and provided for in his house to mourn for her dead family and to prepare her mind for the marriage. She's not to be dressed or addressed as a slave or captive because Israelites can't enslave Israelites.

If after one month, the marriage doesn't or can't hold for whatever reason, the man must let her go free, she's not to be sold or exchanged for anything.

95%+ of women in this position usually marry the man mostly because they have no family elsewhere and no means of livelihood once they leave not necessarily because they love him.

Anyway, as long as she participated in the wedding, she's married.

jasminer:


Lol, surprised you agree on this one

Read to understand bruh, there’s nothing like Holy Ghost, it’s called being logical and reasonable

uche40:



Sorry dear but you don't get to dictate the rules and policies of our conversation. We're not in a church auditorium where circlejerking and regurgitation of religious platitudes is the norm.

So your insistence that Christianity CAN and MUST only be discussed in the context of Biblical understanding is disingenuous, or naive at best. The reality here -- which I can parse from your telling reluctance to view your beliefs from an objective and unbiased lens -- is that you afraid of having your beliefs called out to be baseless and unjustified. You can keep claiming otherwise till your face turns blue. You can keep finding solace in the written words of the Holy fictional novel of your choice, but I know deep down, THAT is your biggest fear.

However, let me start by addressing your claim that Christianity is not a religion.

please answer "True" or "False" to the following statements:

1) You believe in a supernatural being, or at least, a supernatural realm.

2) Your belief system distinguishes between sacredness and profanity.

3) There are ritual acts focused on sacredness in your belief (Holy Communion, Baptism, The Eucharist etc.).

4) Your belief system has a moral code.

5) Your belief system affirms experiences of spiritual and supernatural "feelings".

6) Your belief system includes prayer as one of its' central activities.

7) Your belief system has a worldview as a whole and the place of the individual therein.

Your belief system has a disciplined lifestyle based on the worldview of what your Holy text teaches.

9) Your belief system encourages "group gatherings" bound together by all of the above.

If you answered "True" to, at least, 6 out of the 9 statements listed up there, then my sister, your belief system IS A RELIGION. You can pull up scriptures from morning till night arguing otherwise, but you cannot reasonably deny that at the very least, your belief system has an overwhelming number of religious aspects attached to it.



Actually, you're dead wrong.

You can NOT fully comprehend or understand the mind of God. You can have a PERSONAL knowledge of God, based on your SUBJECTIVE interpretation of scriptures -- which is what you meant here. People interprete scriptures differently, and that's why you have multiple denominations within Christianity, with slight variations of the Christian doctrine across these denominations. That's why you have people arguing over tithes. That's why you have people arguing over the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. It is precisely because you can NOT have a COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE of God's nature, his mind, his plans, his will and his objectives.

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
- Isaiah 55:8-9

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"
- Romans 11:33-34

Behold, these are but the outskirts of his ways, and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand?
- Job 26:14

God is described as infinite. Humans are supposedly finite and have limited capacity to fully understand every aspect of his being.

The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
- Deuteronomy 29:29

Since you just came back from the moon, I'll clue you in: God himself routinely bypasses and/or outrightly contradicts his own commandments numerous times in the Old Testament just to favor his own people and punish the "sinners" and "evil doers". For instance, he commands not to kill, but he orders and orchestrates the killings and destruction of countless individuals and cities in the Old Testament. King David committed many acts of murder in the Old Testament. Samson did the same. They were instruments of God. Today they are considered to be heroes of the Bible. So your criteria is feeble and irrelevant.

Request granted. I'll quote four.

We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully
- Romans 12:6-8

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you
- John 14:26

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams
- Acts 2:17

Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.
- Matthew 1:19-21

Christianity asserts that God desires to have a personal relationship with humans, and therefore he can speak to people through multiple means which include through dreams, thoughts, visions, the Holy Spirit, and even through other people. Reading the Bible is just one out of many means and it can be argued that it is often subject to misinterpretation.


This assumes that God can't speak to people through other means besides the Bible. Thankfully, we've already addressed this faulty assumption.

If I'm being honest, I'm getting tired of this roundabout argument where you use bland sophistry and hermeneutics to protect your position. I'll cut to the chase here. I brought this up previously but you swiftly avoided it. Well, I've entertained your game of musical chairs long enough.

Your claim that God is the source or arbiter of moral values contains an unsupported assertion: GOD EXISTS. Please provide empirical evidence supporting this assertion.

1. You don't want to judge Christianity by its own book of law, but you want to judge Christianity based on some philosophical trash written by only God knows who Double standards... I'll pass.

2. If we would continue having this discussion, I won't tolerate you calling my Holy Bible a fictional book, it's worse than you insulting my parents. I haven't insulted you at all in anyway... If you cannot do this, let this conversation end because I can't understand where the bile is coming from over something you claim doesn't exist

3. If I say my name is Timtim and Timtim means Gold, how can you argue with me because Timtim in your dictionary means beating?
I'm a Christian, and Christianity means Christ like. Religion is a system, I do not conform to nor belong to any christian system. My daily goal is to be more Christ like not to be more system like. That's all.

4. God is described as infinite. Humans are supposedly finite and have limited capacity to fully understand every aspect of his being.
I love your response on knowing the mind of God, most especially this emboldened part.
You agree man is limited and God is limitless, so how can man know everything in a limitless mind via man's limited mind?
Do you want to teach a day old child algebra or quadratic equation?
Will you teach a primary student quantum physics? You'll learn what you're capable of understanding. Even if God told you everything, you won't understand because man is limited but God is limitless.
All man needs to know about God is in the Bible and God sticks to what is written when dealing with man.

So once again, I know the mind of God, his mind is in the Bible.

5. I also love the verses you quoted to show various ways God speaks to man. They all agree with Numbers 12 vs 6-8:
6. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Irrespective of whatever means God or God's angel speaks to you, one thing is certain, the message they give to you or the dreams or the visions cannot contradict the word of God in the Bible. If it's confusing or not clear and seems like it's contradicting the Bible, don't be in a haste to believe, first test the spirit to be sure they are of God. If the spirit is of God, pray for clarity and you'll get it.

6. Morals apart, the existence of this earth and everything in it is evidence that God exists.
Let's assume Big bang theory is true as thats pretty much the only scientific explanation of Earth's existence.

Big bang is the explosion of an immense energy and heat that gave birth to everything on earth and in space. What created the immense energy and heat before the beginning began? Some say Dark energy, some say Quantum uncertainty etc but there's a general consensus that something caused big bang and big bang caused everything else but logically thinking, it's impossible to have an infinite regress of cause and effects.

In simpler terms, it's impossible for something that caused what caused something to cause something to cause something that caused big bang to be the true SOURCE of all causes and effects because something must have caused the first something in the first place before that something existed.

Matter cannot be created nor destroyed same with energy, it can only be converted from one form to another so what was the first matter or energy that caused the dark energy to cause immense heat (up to 1trillion celcius degrees) to cause the explosion in the first place.

Before big bang, there was nothing, where did dark energy come from? Why hasn't another bang occured?

The only answer is that there MUST have been an UNCAUSED CAUSE which preceded every other thing. This UNCAUSED CAUSE is the true SOURCE of all form of matter, life and energy.

This source is who I refer to as God and everything that exists is proof that he caused everything to exist.

suicidesheep:


Read to understand bruh, there’s nothing like Holy Ghost, it’s called being logical and reasonable

There is Holy Ghost, I'm a witness of His existence there's also logic too

jasminer:


1. You don't want to judge Christianity by its own book of law, but you want to judge Christianity based on some philosophical trash written by only God knows who Double standards... I'll pass.

2. If we would continue having this discussion, I won't tolerate you calling my Holy Bible a fictional book, it's worse than you insulting my parents. I haven't insulted you at all in anyway... If you cannot do this, let this conversation end because I can't understand where the bile is coming from over something you claim doesn't exist

3. If I say my name is Timtim and Timtim means Gold, how can you argue with me because Timtim in your dictionary means beating?
I'm a Christian, and Christianity means Christ like. Religion is a system, I do not conform to nor belong to any christian system. My daily goal is to be more Christ like not to be more system like. That's all.

4. God is described as infinite. Humans are supposedly finite and have limited capacity to fully understand every aspect of his being.
I love your response on knowing the mind of God, most especially this emboldened part.
You agree man is limited and God is limitless, so how can man know everything in a limitless mind via man's limited mind?
Do you want to teach a day old child algebra or quadratic equation?
Will you teach a primary student quantum physics? You'll learn what you're capable of understanding. Even if God told you everything, you won't understand because man is limited but God is limitless.
All man needs to know about God is in the Bible and God sticks to what is written when dealing with man.

So once again, I know the mind of God, his mind is in the Bible.

5. I also love the verses you quoted to show various ways God speaks to man. They all agree with Numbers 12 vs 6-8:
6. And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

Irrespective of whatever means God or God's angel speaks to you, one thing is certain, the message they give to you or the dreams or the visions cannot contradict the word of God in the Bible. If it's confusing or not clear and seems like it's contradicting the Bible, don't be in a haste to believe, first test the spirit to be sure they are of God. If the spirit is of God, pray for clarity and you'll get it.

6. Morals apart, the existence of this earth and everything in it is evidence that God exists.
Let's assume Big bang theory is true as thats pretty much the only scientific explanation of Earth's existence.

Big bang is the explosion of an immense energy and heat that gave birth to everything on earth and in space. What created the immense energy and heat before the beginning began? Some say Dark energy, some say Quantum uncertainty etc but there's a general consensus that something caused big bang and big bang caused everything else but logically thinking, it's impossible to have an infinite regress of cause and effects.

In simpler terms, it's impossible for something that caused what caused something to cause something to cause something that caused big bang to be the true SOURCE of all causes and effects because something must have caused the first something in the first place before that something existed.

Matter cannot be created nor destroyed same with energy, it can only be converted from one form to another so what was the first matter or energy that caused the dark energy to cause immense heat (up to 1trillion celcius degrees) to cause the explosion in the first place.

Before big bang, there was nothing, where did dark energy come from? Why hasn't another bang occured?

The only answer is that there MUST have been an UNCAUSED CAUSE which preceded every other thing. This UNCAUSED CAUSE is the true SOURCE of all form of matter, life and energy.

This source is who I refer to as God and everything that exists is proof that he caused everything to exist.

If I'm being honest, I've lost respect for you -- as well as interest in this discussion -- the moment I realized you were trying to insult my intelligence by 1) committing a Strawman Fallacy by reading into my statements to conjure up an absurd conclusion that I believe in spirits, 2) trying to convince me that a day old infant can realistically pose a threat to your safety () and 3) thinking you could deceive me into thinking that war -- which is amply defined as armed conflicts between two different countries -- was the reason God caused the global flood. It seems to me like you are arguing in bad faith and I couldn't care less about this discussion at the moment. This doesn't feel like a conversation to me. It feels like someone trying to win an argument by any means necessary, no matter how underhanded or dishonest they can get. This discussion is played out and has become tiresome for now.

I'll be extremely busy for the next couple of days, so I won't be having the time or patience to type out long, detailed responses. If I do respond, my ripostes will be much shorter going forward. However, I WILL keep tabs on this thread though, to monitor further discussions, and might make time to revisit this particular post thoroughly in the future, which is why I've quoted it as a reminder.

In the meantime, please get a primer on the Philosophy of Religion. Thanks.

uche40:


If I'm being honest, I've lost respect for you -- as well as interest in this discussion -- the moment I realized you were trying to insult my intelligence by 1) committing a Strawman Fallacy by reading into my statements to conjure up an absurd conclusion that I believe in spirits, 2) trying to convince me that a day old infant can realistically pose a threat to your safety () and 3) thinking you could deceive me into thinking that war -- which is amply defined as armed conflicts between two different countries -- was the reason God caused the global flood. It seems to me like you are arguing in bad faith and I couldn't care less about this discussion at the moment. This doesn't feel like a conversation to me. It feels like someone trying to win an argument by any means necessary, no matter how underhanded or dishonest they can get. This discussion is played out and has become tiresome for now.

I'll be extremely busy for the next couple of days, so I won't be having the time or patience to type out long, detailed responses. If I do respond, my ripostes will be much shorter going forward. However, I WILL keep tabs on this thread though, to monitor further discussions, and might make time to revisit this particular post thoroughly in the future, which is why I've quoted it as a reminder.

In the meantime, please get a primer on the Philosophy of Religion. Thanks.

Sorry for misunderstanding your view of atheism.

That being said, I'm happy you read the bible even if it was to get scriptures to argue with me

I look forward to your comment on my proof of God's existence. Whenever you're free to comment on it of course.

Bonne chance with whatever you're off to do.

Wow, such an interesting topic

jasminer I'm really impressed with your consistence and your Bible understanding. Some questions be like trap but you answered well. I sense you are a pastor or an evangelist. Still, I'm highly impressed. Tiri gbosa for you

Let me just add this on the issue of the murder of the children of the Amalekites.
I agree with you that the children could have grown up to be a threat but I don't think that was the main reason why they had to be killed.

The Mosaic law stated an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. The parents of the newborn Amalekites ripped out unborn children from the womb and smashed them on the wall hence, their own children deserved to be ripped out from the womb and smashed on the wall as well.

An eye for an eye, a child for a child. Simple and short.

jasminer:


Whoever replaces you, will strike the enemy not minding the casualties because that's what has to be done.
==============
On the rape issue, the worst name you can give the men taking the women as wives is forced marriage but it's still not even forced.

By the then Jewish traditions, any woman chosen by any man in such a scenario is automatically betrothed to that man and hence she's an Israeli already.

After she has been chosen or betrothed, she's allowed one full month fully cared and provided for in his house to mourn for her dead family and to prepare her mind for the marriage. She's not to be dressed or addressed as a slave or captive because Israelites can't enslave Israelites.

If after one month, the marriage doesn't or can't hold for whatever reason, the man must let her go free, she's not to be sold or exchanged for anything.

95%+ of women in this position usually marry the man mostly because they have no family elsewhere and no means of livelihood once they leave not necessarily because they love him.

Anyway, as long as she participated in the wedding, she's married.

Whoever replaces me has nothing to do with me. If he goes ahead to kill children, that's on him. E no concern me, I already stepped down. So you have nothing to pin on me, neither are you able to label me a hypocrite.


Also, what you're answering is another thing entirely. The question is:
Since it has been established that the Christian god decides what's moral or not and can change, improve or disregard any law because he's god, and noting the fact that he endorsed slavery, commanded men to kill babies and also accepted human sacrifice from a man, do you agree that rape would be morally objective and right if he declares it moral?
Answer with a "Yes I agree" or "No, I don't agree", then give reasons.
Answer it and shame me. Avoid it or divert and shame yourself.

YourFavEvangeli:
Wow, such an interesting topic

jasminer I'm really impressed with your consistence and your Bible understanding. Some questions be like trap but you answered well. I sense you are a pastor or an evangelist. Still, I'm highly impressed. Tiri gbosa for you

Let me just add this on the issue of the murder of the children of the Amalekites.
I agree with you that the children could have grown up to be a threat but I don't think that was the main reason why they had to be killed.

The Mosaic law stated an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. The parents of the newborn Amalekites ripped out unborn children from the womb and smashed them on the wall hence, their own children deserved to be ripped out from the womb and smashed on the wall as well.

An eye for an eye, a child for a child. Simple and short.

Would it be okay for the same to be done to your children and every child in your tribe if people from your tribe should do the same?

kingxsamz:

Would it be okay for the same to be done to your children and every child in your tribe if people from your tribe should do the same?

People from my tribe isn't my father or my ancestor.

My grandfather like all his male siblings and cousins died at a certain age range because they claimed my ancestor killed a man in that range. Do I like it? No, did it happen? Yes?
Was it God that killed them? No but until my father and his siblings accepted Christ and based on the convenant of Christ resisted that spirit, it kept happening.

YourFavEvangeli:


People from my tribe isn't my father or my ancestor.

My grandfather like all his male siblings and cousins died at a certain age range because they claimed my ancestor killed a man in that range. Do I like it? No, did it happen? Yes?
Was it God that killed them? No but until my father and his siblings accepted Christ and based on the convenant of Christ resisted that spirit, it kept happening.

I asked you if it would be okay if people from other tribes should kill every child from your tribe and in your family for the crimes carried out by other individuals from your tribe. That's the question. Answer accordingly.

kingxsamz:


I asked you if it would be okay if people from other tribes should kill every child from your tribe and in your family for the crimes carried out by other individuals from your tribe. That's the question. Answer accordingly.

He has already answered your question with an instance where his own grand father and his grandfather's cousins died because of what his great grand father or great great grand father did.

He didn't say a village for a child. He said a child for a child. So asking if he should be killed for the action of another individual doesn't tally with his answer.

Your question should have been: would you be happy if someone killed you because your father killed someone because that's the instance he portrayed. The Amalekites all partook in the killing of the Israelites. There is something called gang rape, gang killing etc so all the males and even their wives actively partook in the killing of the Israelites's children.

It's not like one Amalekite killed one child and ran away and the Israelites came and killed a whole city or country. No, an entire city killed children and people from another city and the same happened to them.

I hope you understand clearly now?

YourFavEvangeli:
Wow, such an interesting topic

jasminer I'm really impressed with your consistence and your Bible understanding. Some questions be like trap but you answered well. I sense you are a pastor or an evangelist. Still, I'm highly impressed. Tiri gbosa for you

Let me just add this on the issue of the murder of the children of the Amalekites.
I agree with you that the children could have grown up to be a threat but I don't think that was the main reason why they had to be killed.

The Mosaic law stated an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. The parents of the newborn Amalekites ripped out unborn children from the womb and smashed them on the wall hence, their own children deserved to be ripped out from the womb and smashed on the wall as well.

An eye for an eye, a child for a child. Simple and short.

Obulu sir (Thank you sir)

I was actually going to come to this angle later, I just wanted to finish with one perspective first then bring this one in later

This thread must reach 100 pages

And they must read the bible as well

Meanwhile the thread has hit 32,000 views.
Kingzsamz uche40 suicidesheep namido yourfavevangeli

I'm dedicating a toast to us all, we did it, we hit a milestone.
Let's keep the thead alive, keep reading the Bible to find out more topics that needs to be trashed thoroughly
And not be disrespectful while addressing one another

NNTR:
Religion takes different shapes and forms, has different passions, interest, rituals et cetera.

Take for example, football is a religion, ice hockey is a religion. Fashion, for some, is a religion too, even atheism, funnily enough, as well, is a religion but nobody, not even you Elmojiid or chieveboy, can find fault(s) in empathy and/or with compassion.

Empathy, goes beyond the range, limits or confines of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, Christianity, The Gospel, ATF, New Age et cetera

Humanity combined with divinity is a sure banker, any day any time

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

NNTR:
Given that the only religion that is true and pure, without flaws or faults and such that has God's approval is not Christianity, is not Islam, is not Hinduism, is not Buddhism, is not ATF, is not New Age, is not atheism, is not football, is not fashion, is not basketball, is not hockey, then whats your reason for adopting it as your favourite, then?

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

NNTR:
You're expected from a biblical background to have love for all human beings anyway
Also let me quickly say this, scent of a humanist, in the air

Who doesnt have families in practising popular different faiths?

Define what a true and pure religion is, that has no flaws, has no faults and also the sort of religion that God approves of.

Next, then give practical examples of what is true a true and pure religion is, that has no flaws, has no faults and also the sort of religion that God approves of

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

NNTR:
Please what exactly are others saying about themselves?

Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, Christianity, ATF, New Age et cetera have flaws and faults that certainly disqualifies them from being any true and pure religion approved by God. Compassion is the only true and pure religion approved by God

Instead of saying, 'exactly same thing other religions say about themselves', why dont you kindly, reply to the question below you keep dodging:
In this day and age, what is compassionate in launching an attack on a defenceless fellow human being, then get barbecued, after done beaten up senselessly please?

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

NNTR:
Repeated or frequently done actions become religion.

What is unfair or flawed, in an atheist running into a building under inferno, to go rescue a Muslim, or vice versa?

Recall, I earlier shared that, empathy or compassion transcends the limits, confines, restrictions et cetera of faith or faithlessness affiliation, meaning empathy or compassion, goes beyond the range, limits or confines of Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism, Christianity, The Gospel, ATF, New Age et cetera, and thats including their inherent flaws and faults.

Who is not universally available?
Even if perceived not to be universally available now, will be available on day in court before everyone and judgment gets passed. As everyone will get an opportunity to give explain all their actions, or just sit back while, from stand to end, Senior Advocate Number Uno (i.e. SAN) takes over and gets you off the hook, saved and free.

I already shared that empathy is a religion thats true and pure, in the sense of conforming to the accurate standard and expectation of God. Compassion without fault and flaw such that God approves of is pure and true religion.

Trust me, empathy and/or compassion are true and pure religion combo win-win that will gain anyone brownie points

No, I do not mean 'Pure Intents', as the road to hell as paved with good intentions and Pure Intents'

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

---

---

jasminer:
Meanwhile the thread has hit 32,000 views.
Kingzsamz uche40 suicidesheep namido yourfavevangeli

I'm dedicating a toast to us all, we did it, we hit a milestone.
Let's keep the thead alive, keep reading the Bible to find out more topics that needs to be trashed thoroughly
And not be disrespectful while addressing one another

Being its 29 pages long, the thread as it is, has become difficult to follow, even any meaningful contribution advanced, as regards, for example, christianity, christian, religion et cetera, will get lost, as in, be like a needle dropped into a haystack.

cc Acehart

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

NNTR:

---

---

Being its 29 pages long, the thread as it is, has become difficult to follow, even any meaningful contribution advanced, as regards, for example, christianity, christian, religion et cetera, will get lost, as in, be like a needle dropped into a haystack.

cc Acehart

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

it's well

jasminer:


He has already answered your question with an instance where his own grand father and his grandfather's cousins died because of what his great grand father or great great grand father did.

He didn't say a village for a child. He said a child for a child. So asking if he should be killed for the action of another individual doesn't tally with his answer.

Your question should have been: would you be happy if someone killed you because your father killed someone because that's the instance he portrayed. The Amalekites all partook in the killing of the Israelites. There is something called gang rape, gang killing etc so all the males and even their wives actively partook in the killing of the Israelites's children.

It's not like one Amalekite killed one child and ran away and the Israelites came and killed a whole city or country. No, an entire city killed children and people from another city and the same happened to them.

I hope you understand clearly now?

I'm not reading all that. Answer the question I asked you in this post else we know you're too scared. Let him answer for himself, your diversion won't work. Answer my question if fear no dey catch you.

https://www.nairaland.com/7398522/experience-atheist-dating-world/27#118039330

jasminer:
Meanwhile the thread has hit 32,000 views.
Kingzsamz uche40 suicidesheep namido yourfavevangeli

I'm dedicating a toast to us all, we did it, we hit a milestone.
Let's keep the thead alive, keep reading the Bible to find out more topics that needs to be trashed thoroughly
And not be disrespectful while addressing one another

If you want to keep the thread alive, answer my question. Or are you scared that your answer will burst your bubble?
Are you scared of what I'm going to say next?
Just answer, let me reveal to you that you're either a rape apologist or a confused Christian.
The question will always be here waiting for you. And nothing else will be addressed until you answer. Scaredy cat.

https://www.nairaland.com/7398522/experience-atheist-dating-world/27#118039330

I was born a Christian and to be honest i have always felt the bible was contradictory when read with an open mind through the lenses of logic and common sense. But if you bring up these contradictions, you are told God is too big for man to understand, his ways are not our ways etc.

If God is real, i don't know how to describe him. Why drive out Adam and Eve because of Apple? Why send your son to die? Was there no other way? Why disappear from the face of the earth so your creations cannot even talk to you and be comforted by you? Why ask us to have faith in an unseen and unheard being knowing fully well people will bow down and worship if they can see you and hear you.

The old testament to be honest describes a good that is partial and cruel in some ways. Wars, killing, fighting in the name of God etc.

Then certain aspects of the bible especially new testament shows acts of kindness.

Then the multiple religions on Earth. Most Christians are that way because they were born into a Christian household and same goes for people in other religions. Which belief is now the Truth?

To be sincere, if we had a cruel/erratic God i wouldn't mind if i can see him and hear him for myself and hear his rules directly from his mouth.

Right now i am an Agnostic leaning towards Atheism. No more praying, church etc. And i feel like i have set myself free.

kingxsamz:


You've deflected but no wahala. He hardened Pharaoh's heart, he confused many people building a tower because they planned to live as one. He literally drowned everyone because he was pissed. He killed a man for pulling out during sex. Omo, I can go on and on.

When Christians say God is kind, it's like saying your kidnapper is kind for killing others and leaving you.

Phraences:

I was born a Christian and to be honest i have always felt the bible was contradictory when read with an open mind through the lenses of logic and common sense. But if you bring up these contradictions, you are told God is too big for man to understand, his ways are not our ways etc.

If God is real, i don't know how to describe him. Why drive out Adam and Eve because of Apple? Why send your son to die? Was there no other way? Why disappear from the face of the earth so your creations cannot even talk to you and be comforted by you? Why ask us to have faith in an unseen and unheard being knowing fully well people will bow down and worship if they can see you and hear you.

The old testament to be honest describes a good that is partial and cruel in some ways. Wars, killing, fighting in the name of God etc.

Then certain aspects of the bible especially new testament shows acts of kindness.

Then the multiple religions on Earth. Most Christians are that way because they were born into a Christian household and same goes for people in other religions. Which belief is now the Truth?

To be sincere, if we had a cruel/erratic God i wouldn't mind if i can see him and hear him for myself and hear his rules directly from his mouth.

Right now i am an Agnostic leaning towards Atheism. No more praying, church etc. And i feel like i have set myself free.

Tbh, you made the best decision. Imagine having the power to make everything right and perfect as the omnipotent and omniscient being that you are, and then you still managed to fvck everything up. Not once, not twice, but multiple times. Even Buhari would have done so much better with that kind of power. I swear.
Look at many advanced societies today. See various technologies and provisions that have been made to improve the lives of everyone.
See how far humans have come. If the people who were alive in the ancient world should come back to life, they'd worship us and call us gods. Yet one so called "perfect god" wasn't even wise enough to plant the tree of good and evil in another planet.
This is obviously the work of man.
The Muslim, Christian, Buddhist and every god people believe in are all the creation of men. That's why their gods make unwise decisions in their religious texts.

kingxsamz:


If you want to keep the thread alive, answer my question. Or are you scared that your answer will burst your bubble?
Are you scared of what I'm going to say next?
Just answer, let me reveal to you that you're either a rape apologist or a confused Christian.
The question will always be here waiting for you. And nothing else will be addressed until you answer. Scaredy cat.

https://www.nairaland.com/7398522/experience-atheist-dating-world/27#118039330

Which question Is that?

suicidesheep:


Which question Is that?

This question. She keeps avoiding it.

Since it has been established that the Christian god decides what's moral or not and can change, improve or disregard any law because he's god, and noting the fact that he endorsed slavery, commanded men to kill babies and also accepted human sacrifice from a man, do you agree that rape would be morally objective and right if he declares it moral?

kingxsamz:


If you want to keep the thread alive, answer my question. Or are you scared that your answer will burst your bubble?
Are you scared of what I'm going to say next?
Just answer, let me reveal to you that you're either a rape apologist or a confused Christian.
The question will always be here waiting for you. And nothing else will be addressed until you answer. Scaredy cat.

https://www.nairaland.com/7398522/experience-atheist-dating-world/27#118039330

Repeatedly asking me an insulting question won't change anything.

There's nowhere God asked anyone to rape.

Marrying a victim of war of her own free will is not rape. Every victim of war has a say in her marriage

Rape is sex without consent nowhere did God permit that.

If you think I'm wrong, I dare you to provide scriptures proving otherwise.

dhardline:
Will I say Nigerian atheist or atheist in general are a funny lot. How do you desire to have a 'decent' atheist as a girl friend?
Like who are you to require a standard for her when nothing rules her?
Or do you not know God gave man commandments on how to live life and be 'decent' and once God is removed man is free to make up his own rules as he lives and nothing becomes out of place for him. So just go ahead a marry any atheist you come across, she can decide to have 10 husband's and it's not out of place, she can decide to sleep with animals and it's still not out of place for her. She is ruled by nothing just as you claim you are too and hence free to do as she wills.

You and your cohort that likes your comments are very low in intelligence.

uche40:


Pharaoh called me some minutes ago. He says he knows a popular comedy club in Egypt. He needs you to perform as an entertainer.

Jonah asked for your number. He said he wants to have a word with you.

The Ephesians asked about you. They want to know if you're still serving the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

[I apologize if the sarcasm rubbed you off the wrong way, but hopefully you got the message]

oh no, I see your point and I found your sarcasm quite amusing.

I don't get the Ephesians reference though