Courz:


The Governing body member's conduct during the Australian royal commission trial proved to me that Truth is very far from JWs. Just like how the JWs here in this forum are known to be chronic liars, that is what That useless Governing body member proved. They were asking him very simple straight forward questions, he was dodging here and there, making stupid statements. Even the Judge was tired and had to criticise him. He was just lying all through.

If you really teach Truth and stand by Truth, why do you have to Lie? Why can't you be courageous enough to say the Truth? Their useless Faithful slave are always bold to tell JWs that they are God's only spokesmen on earth but this fool when asked, just denied it flat, saying that it would seem presumptuous to say so and that anybody in the congregation or outside can fulfill that role. Ah! This Faithful slave people are cowards outside yet they preach to JW to be courageous and speak without fear. But Fear hold this one that he cannot be bold enough to say what he tells JWs. So, JWs are the foolish ones that can courageously speak the Truth outside so that they will be persecuted then the useless faithful slave will come out and say, See? We are being persecuted for teaching the truth. But when it is their turn to be courageous, they will be lying so that they won't be persecuted. Only JWs face persecution but their leaders will be chilling in New York in their fancy cars, maids and drivers, fancy houses and flying business class all over the world and getting fatter every day with JW donations.

When I started waking up from this Cult and watched that Trial, I was so disappointed. Each time he twists his answers and avoids the question, I will be talking through the phone shouting, Mr man, answer the question now! Why are you lying? Oh, that man was a Disgrace. After watching that, I never looked at this Cult the same. My mindset changed completely and I realised this Cult is a Fraud.

If someone reads transcripts of DOUGLAS-WALSH TRIAL and listens to ARC and does not wake up. Well, I don't know what else will wake him up.
"They GB members don't believe what the teach" That's the conclusion I made after going through the two above courtroom trials.

Courz:


The Governing body member's conduct during the Australian royal commission trial proved to me that Truth is very far from JWs. Just like how the JWs here in this forum are known to be chronic liars, that is what That useless Governing body member proved. They were asking him very simple straight forward questions, he was dodging here and there, making stupid statements. Even the Judge was tired and had to criticise him. He was just lying all through.

If you really teach Truth and stand by Truth, why do you have to Lie? Why can't you be courageous enough to say the Truth? Their useless Faithful slave are always bold to tell JWs that they are God's only spokesmen on earth but this fool when asked, just denied it flat, saying that it would seem presumptuous to say so and that anybody in the congregation or outside can fulfill that role. Ah! This Faithful slave people are cowards outside yet they preach to JW to be courageous and speak without fear. But Fear hold this one that he cannot be bold enough to say what he tells JWs. So, JWs are the foolish ones that can courageously speak the Truth outside so that they will be persecuted then the useless faithful slave will come out and say, See? We are being persecuted for teaching the truth. But when it is their turn to be courageous, they will be lying so that they won't be persecuted. Only JWs face persecution but their leaders will be chilling in New York in their fancy cars, maids and drivers, fancy houses and flying business class all over the world and getting fatter every day with JW donations.

When I started waking up from this Cult and watched that Trial, I was so disappointed. Each time he twists his answers and avoids the question, I will be talking through the phone shouting, Mr man, answer the question now! Why are you lying? Oh, that man was a Disgrace. After watching that, I never looked at this Cult the same. My mindset changed completely and I realised this Cult is a Fraud.

The heat was too hot for the lying machine that he ran away and said that he was going to care of his aged Father

OgaNightmare:

I'm not really triggered by the F word
It is when he said that he is warrior in za oza room mentioning his woman
That's so absurd, your bedroom or married life whatsoever is non of our business. If you like be a nympho nobody cares

Hahahahahahahahahahaha. The thing shock me o. Nobody was talking about bedmatics, he just brought it out from nowhere. He was obviously deflecting looking for unnecessary things to say. I think he smokes igbo before replying anyone in this forum. Who wants to know how you handle your woman? Real Mad man that one!

OgaNightmare:

If someone reads transcripts of DOUGLAS-WALSH TRIAL and listens to ARC and does not wake up. Well, I don't know what else will wake him up.
"They GB members don't believe what the teach" That's the conclusion I made after going through the two above courtroom trials.

Oh Yes. The Governing body don't believe what they teach JWs and that is why they like to change their doctrines often. In Crisis of Conscience book by Ray Franz, he said there were some amongst the Governing body members who didn't believe in the 1914 doctrine and were considering changing it but the majority maintained that it shouldn't be changed. Even Fred Franz said He hopes 1914 is true. So, he is not even sure 1914 is correct. These people are just formulating doctrines from Guesswork and parading it as Truth. And that shows that they are frauds.

MaxInDHouse:


Jesus said:

But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you. I leave you peace; I give you my peace. I do not give it to you the way that the world gives it. Do not let your hearts be troubled nor let them shrink out of fear. John 14:26-27

According to the above quote Jesus' presence will be replaced by God's Holy Spirit because that's what God promised the Jews {Joel 2:28; Act 2:16-18}} it will be as a sign of approval only for Jews that have accepted the counsel of the Christ. Act 2:39
The HOLY SPIRIT doesn't make imperfect humans become perfect rather just as Jesus Christ was in their midst teaching them while they're making mistakes over and over again regarding what he taught them they will still continue to make the same kind of mistakes now that the one teaching them is an invisible force. So the one and only evidence that they're acting in line with what the spirit teaches them is LOVE, JOY, PEACE, PATIENCE, GOODNESS, GENTLENESS, FAITH, MILDNESS and SELF-CONTROL {Galatians 5:22-23} that's the FRUIT Jesus talked about {Matthew 7:16-18} they're not going to become perfect in their understanding NO! NO!! NO!!! But as the LOVE permeates their gathering everywhere they are that will assure them that they are truly getting the sense of what the Holy Spirit is teaching them {John 13:34-35} because that's what Jesus supposed to achieve in the gathering of imperfect humans making the best use of his wonderful counsel as the Prince of Peace {Isaiah 9:6} God is LOVE {1John 4:8} therefore God's people can't worship Him acceptably in the absence of LOVE! 1Corinthians 13:13

The only difference is that under inspiration God's Holy Spirit will PERFECTLY direct the mind of one of them to pen down words that will be recorded as part of the inspired word of God {2Timothy 3:16} but when it comes to the understanding of what the Holy Spirit inspired the writer to pen down even the one inspired still needs to sit down with other anointed brothers and pray for Jesus to come and direct them on the practical application of what they got and of course Jesus will come into their midst as an invisible mighty spirit {Matthew 18:20} he must not say a word since his own assignment has completed he must allow them to use their brains to figure out the practical application as they meditate thoroughly on what they received. So what will be the undeniable evidence that Jesus Christ is the chairman of their gathering?
Note that even when he was with them in the flesh they still make mistakes trying to grasp what he taught them, surely they will still make mistakes but then as LOVE and PEACE works out perfectly among them they can be rest assured that they're doing exactly what Jesus directed them to do. John 14:26-27

God bless you and may you have PEACE!

Maybe you didn't even get my point because you seem to be saying the same thing I have in mind. We agree that the apostles made mistakes in UNDERSTANDING. But don't you agree that it wasn't the spirit that led them to a wrong understanding. Do we agree on that?

I agree that when God's spirit moves them to utter inspired word, that word is accurate and cannot change. However, to understand all that they were inspired to pen down needs careful study of those inspired expressions. This I agree you believe as well, right?

Now what if they err in their understanding of what the spirit inspired or what Jesus said, can we say it was the spirit that led them to those wrong understanding? From the bold faced words, I think your answer is no.

So we can see that we can not say that being wrong in understanding what either Jesus or God's word says is being led by the spirit. The GB, as well as other scholars are roving about to understand these things. The understanding is not limited to a group of men.

Unless you have an inspired direction on a point, you do not have any right to condemn others who try to understand the same bible that you also struggle to understand. You can be right in one point and they are wrong, or you can be wrong in that point and they are right. Or it could even be that both of you are all wrong.

What do you think?

2. While I agree on your point of the fruit of the spirit, and yes as John 13:34-35 says, love will help people to identify the christians, but let it be known that John 13:34,35 is a command. Jesus is not saying that love will supernaturally be in their midst to identify them as his disciples. Take note of the word IF in that verse. Jesus is saying that if they have love, if they cultivate that quality, people will know them as his disciples, but if they do not, that doesn't mean that they are not his disciples, it only means that people will not identify them as his disciples. It will be hard for people to see them as such because obviously they are not united. It however, does not mean that they are not his disciples.

Ancient Israel was largely divided as some time, they also worshiped other gods, that didn't mean that they are no longer God's people, but it will be hard for others to know that. In fact even the apostles had divisive moments in their history. What showed God's favor with them was the unmatched miraculous work issuing from them. That was the unmistakable stamp of God's approval even while they had some issues amongst them.

Do you agree with this?

tctrills:

Every other group shares the same doctrine to all their members.
You are like the boy that thinks his Father's farm is biggest without visiting other farms.
The Catholics for example share the same doctrine to all their members.
I advise you to study more about other groups.
There is no bliss in ignorance.

So if truly they share the same doctrine please what exactly is causing the wars in the world today?

Sand2022:

Maybe you didn't even get my point because you seem to be saying the same thing I have in mind. We agree that the apostles made mistakes in UNDERSTANDING. But don't you agree that it wasn't the spirit that led them to a wrong understanding. Do we agree on that?

YES!

Sand2022:

I agree that when God's spirit moves them to utter inspired word, that word is accurate and cannot change. However, to understand all that they were inspired to pen down needs careful study of those inspired expressions. This I agree you believe as well, right?

Right!

Sand2022:

Now what if they err in their understanding of what the spirit inspired or what Jesus said, can we say it was the spirit that led them to those wrong understanding? From the bold faced words, I think your answer is no.

Correct!

Sand2022:

So we can see that we can not say that being wrong in understanding what either Jesus or God's word says is being led by the spirit. The GB, as well as other scholars are roving about to understand these things. The understanding is not limited to a group of men.

I disagree with you on this point!
All the religious groups on this planet are roving about searching for God in whatever way they know but then God's word says there are certain things that will help sincere individual to KNOW those who are truly worshiping God out of all these religions.
God said during the end time when everyone is busy on how to make a living we will notice some people always discussing with their neighbours and the main focus of their discussion will be (1) God's name (2) righteousness of God {Malachi 3:16} God's word goes further saying the end result of this movement will help many to distinguish between true worshipers and fake! Malachi 3:18
So despite the fact that all were searching for God it's evident that the group visiting people in their homes to discuss about the name of the most high God {John 17:6,26} are the only group doing God's will {Matthew 7:21} that's why they're able to fulfill what is written in the Bible book of Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3

Sand2022:

Unless you have an inspired direction on a point, you do not have any right to condemn others who try to understand the same bible that you also struggle to understand. You can be right in one point and they are wrong, or you can be wrong in that point and they are right. Or it could even be that both of you are all wrong.

What do you think?

Jesus has settled this point with the his words found @ Matthew 7:16-18 the only group of people meeting up with the expectations as prophesied in God's word has the pure worship while all others are FAKE!

Sand2022:

2. While I agree on your point of the fruit of the spirit, and yes as John 13:34-35 says, love will help people to identify the christians, but let it be known that John 13:34,35 is a command. Jesus is not saying that love will supernaturally be in their midst to identify them as his disciples. Take note of the word IF in that verse. Jesus is saying that if they have love, if they cultivate that quality, people will know them as his disciples, but if they do not, that doesn't mean that they are not his disciples, it only means that people will not identify them as his disciples. It will be hard for people to see them as such because obviously they are not united. It however, does not mean that they are not his disciples.

If they do not there's no reason meeting together since it's evident that they're not achieving anything worthwhile. Revelations 3:16

Sand2022:

Ancient Israel was largely divided as some time, they also worshiped other gods, that didn't mean that they are no longer God's people, but it will be hard for others to know that. In fact even the apostles had divisive moments in their history. What showed God's favor with them was the unmatched miraculous work issuing from them. That was the unmistakable stamp of God's approval even while they had some issues amongst them. Do you agree with this?

I totally disagree with this!

First of all it's pure worship that makes Israel God's people whatever makes them worship other gods they're no longer His people {Deuteronomy 32:5} God is the creator of all flesh so the only reason why He's related to them is pure worship in the absence of that they're no longer His people! Exodus 19:5

As for supernatural gifts Jesus made it clear that there are two things we need to take note regarding God's Holy Spirit:
GIFT and FRUIT!

Just like a tree God's Holy Spirit is supernatural just like demonic powers so demons can also perform miracles that's why Jesus warned us not to be carried away with such GIFTS! Matthew 7:21-23

A tree could be huge , tall and thick, sweet smell, it's leaves may serve as a shade under the hot Sun or medicinal, it's stem may be good for timber supplies so Jesus never asked us to trust in their GIFTS but their FRUIT:

The fruit must be exactly the same fruit that the first century Jewish disciples produced back then. A mango tree will always produce mango so instead of blurring our senses with the gifts which could be found in some other trees Jesus said:

"By their FRUITS you will know" Matthew 7:16

Don't be deceived Sir there are supernatural GIFTS in so many religions otherwise people will not stick to those religions if they're not seeing anything supernatural but then only the true religion will continue to bear the fruitage of FAITH!

MaxInDHouse:

YES!

Right!


Correct!

Thanks for being open minded.

I disagree with you on this point!
All the religious groups on this planet are roving about searching for God in whatever way they know but then God's word says there are certain things that will help sincere individual to KNOW those who are truly worshiping God out of all these religions.
God said during the end time when everyone is busy on how to make a living we will notice some people always discussing with their neighbours and the main focus of their discussion will be (1) God's name (2) righteousness of God {Malachi 3:16} God's word goes further saying the end result of this movement will help many to distinguish between true worshipers and fake! Malachi 3:18
So despite the fact that all were searching for God it's evident that the group visiting people in their homes to discuss about the name of the most high God {John 17:6,26} are the only group doing God's will {Matthew 7:21} that's why they're able to fulfill what is written in the Bible book of Isaiah 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-3

Sorry you seem to miss the point of my comment. Maybe I didn't word it so well. What I mean is, since no one can say for sure what understanding is not fallible, unless he is supernaturally directed, both your scholars and other scholars are striving to understand the bible. Since we all can't claim infallibility in understanding this divine word, will it not be reasonable to admit that we may be wrong in this and others are right or we may be right in this while another is wrong or that it is even possible that both of us are wrong? Will it be reasonable to think that which ever truth that will ever exist must ALWAYS come from a particular group of men?

What do you think?

Jesus has settled this point with the his words found @ Matthew 7:16-18 the only group of people meeting up with the expectations as prophesied in God's word has the pure worship while all others are FAKE!

True fake prophets are real. We need to be careful about such ones. In fact that is why I have a thread to know if there is any prophet that has a reputation of true prophecies because while the Devil can thrive in miracles, he can't always foretell the future accurately. In fact God used that as a challenge to false gods in Isaiah.

Jesus was not there talking about a group, but specifically the prophets and perhaps false miracle workers. Of course by saying that, Jesus doesn't mean that there are no true prophets. No. He was in fact talking about fake ones.

If they do not there's no reason meeting together since it's evident that they're not achieving anything worthwhile. Revelations 3:16

No. Divisive individuals will always come. Both during when Jesus was with his apostles, or when the apostles formed churches, there were occasions of argument, disagreement, disunity. Christ is dealing with humans, he knows that such divisions will manifest one way or another. That's why he gave the command so that they will at least make effort. Not everyone will obey the command to be united in thought or doctrine.

I totally disagree with this!

First of all it's pure worship that makes Israel God's people whatever makes them worship other gods they're no longer His people {Deuteronomy 32:5} God is the creator of all flesh so the only reason why He's related to them is pure worship in the absence of that they're no longer His people! Exodus 19:5

I don't think you understand me. The point I was making is about division in Israel. Did all tribes or individuals in Israel always agree on one thing? For example did the Southern tribe and Northern tribe always agree? Were the Israelites always doing what God wanted them to do? Did God reject them all those times and chose another nation?

Do you understand me now?

As for supernatural gifts Jesus made it clear that there are two things we need to take note regarding God's Holy Spirit:
GIFT and FRUIT!

Just like a tree God's Holy Spirit is supernatural just like demonic powers so demons can also perform miracles that's why Jesus warned us not to be carried away with such GIFTS! Matthew 7:21-23

A tree could be huge , tall and thick, sweet smell, it's leaves may serve as a shade under the hot Sun or medicinal, it's stem may be good for timber supplies so Jesus never asked us to trust in their GIFTS but their FRUIT:

The fruit must be exactly the same fruit that the first century Jewish disciples produced back then. A mango tree will always produce mango so instead of blurring our senses with the gifts which could be found in some other trees Jesus said:

"By their FRUITS you will know" Matthew 7:16

Don't be deceived Sir there are supernatural GIFTS in so many religions otherwise people will not stick to those religions if they're not seeing anything supernatural but then only the true religion will continue to bear the fruitage of FAITH!

Good point. Nice one. I have always been of the point that we should be careful of fake people. We don't have to be too believing otherwise we are gone.

We however should not go to the other extreme of saying that no true prophet exists. I mean while saying the above, we won't think that Jesus was saying that there are no true miracles or prophets. We know that after he died and went to heaven, he poured out a spirit that made people to perform miracles and prophesied. His warning about fakes won't mean that we shouldn't accept the miracle that came after Jesus went to heaven. In fact those miracles were proves that God no longer approves Judaism but has chosen Christianity. So that was unmistakable stamp of God's approval. But the disciples back then still manifested the christian FRUITAGE while still performing miracles. So while talking about fruitage, know that those back then manifested these fruits and still performed miracles. But there are fakes for sure.

It is hard to know which power is behind a miracle, but one thing is sure, what does that miracle worker teach? What is his conduct? For me, I recommend checking if he is a prophet to see if his prophecies always come true. To me that will make a lot of sense.

Sand2022:

Thanks for being open minded.
Sorry you seem to miss the point of my comment. Maybe I didn't word it so well. What I mean is, since no one can say for sure what understanding is not fallible, unless he is supernaturally directed, both your scholars and other scholars are striving to understand the bible. Since we all can't claim infallibility in understanding this divine word, will it not be reasonable to admit that we may be wrong in this and others are right or we may be right in this while another is wrong or that it is even possible that both of us are wrong? Will it be reasonable to think that which ever truth that will ever exist must ALWAYS come from a particular group of men?
What do you think?

If you mean from an ORGANIZED PEOPLE, YES!
The Christian congregation replaced Israel and Jehovah's Witnesses organization replaced the churches of Christendom today. So God never used two groups at any time!

Sand2022:

True fake prophets are real. We need to be careful about such ones. In fact that is why I have a thread to know if there is any prophet that has a reputation of true prophecies because while the Devil can thrive in miracles, he can't always foretell the future accurately. In fact God used that as a challenge to false gods in Isaiah.
Jesus was not there talking about a group, but specifically the prophets and perhaps false miracle workers. Of course by saying that, Jesus doesn't mean that there are no true prophets. No. He was in fact talking about fake ones.

Of course Jesus was talking about a group that is why he prayed to his father for them to have the same line of {John 17:22} that can't be real if the truth can come from different groups.

Sand2022:

No. Divisive individuals will always come. Both during when Jesus was with his apostles, or when the apostles formed churches, there were occasions of argument, disagreement, disunity. Christ is dealing with humans, he knows that such divisions will manifest one way or another. That's why he gave the command so that they will at least make effort. Not everyone will obey the command to be united in thought or doctrine.

Jesus told us that his own group will always have the same line of thought {John 17:22} but as for divisive individuals they will be scattered spiritually speaking {Luke 11:23} meaning they cannot think alike hence when politics and racism calls they will start killing themselves! Revelations 6:3-4

Sand2022:

I don't think you understand me. The point I was making is about division in Israel. Did all tribes or individuals in Israel always agree on one thing? For example did the Southern tribe and Northern tribe always agree? Were the Israelites always doing what God wanted them to do? Did God reject them all those times and chose another nation?

God chose Israel but when the Northern ten tribes began worshiping idols God rejected them and concentrated on the two Southern tribes, the north is called Samaritans while the south is called Jews. Jesus later confirmed that the true God has abandoned Samaritans and their form of worship! John 4:22

Sand2022:

Good point. Nice one. I have always been of the point that we should be careful of fake people. We don't have to be too believing otherwise we are gone.

We however should not go to the other extreme of saying that no true prophet exists. I mean while saying the above, we won't think that Jesus was saying that there are no true miracles or prophets. We know that after he died and went to heaven, he poured out a spirit that made people to perform miracles and prophesied. His warning about fakes won't mean that we shouldn't accept the miracle that came after Jesus went to heaven. In fact those miracles were proves that God no longer approves Judaism but has chosen Christianity. So that was unmistakable stamp of God's approval. But the disciples back then still manifested the christian FRUITAGE while still performing miracles. So while talking about fruitage, know that those back then manifested these fruits and still performed miracles. But there are fakes for sure.
It is hard to know which power is behind a miracle, but one thing is sure, what does that miracle worker teach? What is his conduct? For me, I recommend checking if he is a prophet to see if his prophecies always come true. To me that will make a lot of sense.

God never gave supernatural GIFTS to anyone outside Israel that's why Jesus said that such gifts are for only Israelites {Matthew 15:24} so the gifts continued for some times after Jesus in other for the Israelites to RECOGNIZE the one and only group practicing pure worship in the first century since there were several groups claiming worshipers of the God of Abraham. But after Christianity has been firmly established all such supernatural gifts ceased! 1Corinthians 13:8-10

Now it's only LOVE that will serve as evidence of pure worship {1Corinthians 13:13} as for supernatural gifts it has ended in the first century after Jesus declared saying NO ADDITION NO SUBTRACTION! Revelations 22:18-19
Thanks!

MaxInDHouse:


So if truly they share the same doctrine please what exactly is causing the wars in the world today?

This is a foolish question. The wars in the world are not being fought over doctrine.
Let me give you an example.
Russian did not invade Ukraine because of a disagreement in their religious doctrines.
The second world war was not about Hitler's doctrines.
Please stop asking foolish questions.
You are not a kid.

tctrills:

This is a foolish question. The wars in the world are not being fought over doctrine.
Let me give you an example.
Russian did not invade Ukraine because of a disagreement in their religious doctrines.
The second world war was not about Hitler's doctrines.
Please stop asking foolish questions.
You are not a kid.

Don't be overly anxious yet try to assimilate.

Doctrines means teachings so if we are talking about the teachings of Christ which supposed to make LOVE, JOY and PEACE reign among his disciples they should be able to use Jesus' teachings to settle whatever differences they had instead of resorting to violence.
So do you think this people accepted Jesus as King?

MaxInDHouse:

If you mean from an ORGANIZED PEOPLE, YES!
The Christian congregation replaced Israel and Jehovah's Witnesses organization replaced the churches of Christendom today. So God never used two groups at any time!


Of course Jesus was talking about a group that is why he prayed to his father for them to have the same line of {John 17:22} that can't be real if the truth can come from different groups.



Jesus told us that his own group will always have the same line of thought {John 17:22} but as for divisive individuals they will be scattered spiritually speaking {Luke 11:23} meaning they cannot think alike hence when politics and racism calls they will start killing themselves! Revelations 6:3-4



God chose Israel but when the Northern ten tribes began worshiping idols God rejected them and concentrated on the two Southern tribes, the north is called Samaritans while the south is called Jews. Jesus later confirmed that the true God has abandoned Samaritans and their form of worship! John 4:22




[b]God never gave supernatural GIFTS to anyone outside Israel that's why Jesus said that such gifts are for only Israelites {[/b]Matthew 15:24} so the gifts continued for some times after Jesus in other for the Israelites to RECOGNIZE the one and only group practicing pure worship in the first century since there were several groups claiming worshipers of the God of Abraham. But after Christianity has been firmly established all such supernatural gifts ceased! 1Corinthians 13:8-10

Now it's only LOVE that will serve as evidence of pure worship {1Corinthians 13:13} as for supernatural gifts it has ended in the first century after Jesus declared saying NO ADDITION NO SUBTRACTION! Revelations 22:18-19
Thanks!

Dumboinho the Babbler, was Abraham, Enoch, Noah, Job, Jethro Israelites?

Buddha, Zarathustra nko?

MaxInDHouse:

If you mean from an ORGANIZED PEOPLE, YES!
The Christian congregation replaced Israel and Jehovah's Witnesses organization replaced the churches of Christendom today. So God never used two groups at any time!

You didn't get my point. We have established that humans err in trying to understand the bible. What I'm asking if it is reasonable to think that the correct understanding will always issue from one particular group of bible students.

There are bible scholars in different parts of the world. Since we are all fallible in understanding what the bible says, can we now say that the correct understanding of the bible will always come from one source that is also in itself fallible? Do you not see a possibility of Group A being right in one teaching and Group B being wrong, or Group A being wrong while Group B being right? Or even Group A and B being all wrong? Or even One Scholar being right while either Group being wrong?

Of course Jesus was talking about a group that is why he prayed to his father for them to have the same line of {John 17:22} that can't be real if the truth can come from different groups.

That's another scripture you refer to there. Iam discussing Matt 7 that you quoted earlier.

If we say that Jesus meant a group or a religion/denomination will it not mean that all in that group are all prophets? So you should look out for a group composed of prophesying prophets, of which all of them are fake? I can't recall any denomination that all members are prophets. If there is, then from your interpretation, it will mean that other churches that are not composed of all prophets are not being meant by Jesus words. That doesn't make sense, does it?

Seriously, Jesus meant false prophets, not any denomination.

True, if a false prophet is a GO of a church, then it's members are in danger. But a GO might be a true prophet but one or two members are false prophets. That's possible too. The GO won't be false because some in the church are false,right?

But of course, even if the reference was to a false denomination, it doesn't mean that all denominations are all false. Does it?

Jesus told us that his own group will always have the same line of thought {John 17:22} but as for divisive individuals they will be scattered spiritually speaking {Luke 11:23} meaning they cannot think alike hence when politics and racism calls they will start killing themselves! Revelations 6:3-4

Why are you adding what the verse didn't say. Jesus was praying for them to be one. Of course they are one, but it didn't mean that they never argued, that they never quarrelled, that none ever left Christianity for something else from first century till date. Is that true? They were not always thinking one thing. This should be easy for you to understand na bros.

We have Judas Iscariot, we have Hemeneaus and Phylectus, and Diotrephes, false apostles in Corinth etc. They will not all think one thing always.

God chose Israel but when the Northern ten tribes began worshiping idols God rejected them and concentrated on the two Southern tribes, the north is called Samaritans while the south is called Jews. Jesus later confirmed that the true God has abandoned Samaritans and their form of worship! John 4:22

If your meaning of reject is that God became angry with them, sent them on exile, allowed them to be defeated by their enemies, then I agree. We all know that that didn't mean that God rejected them, rather it was to discipline them to make amends. If they changed, he rescues them. Is that what you mean by reject? If so, I agree.

But that's not what I mean. I mean total rejection as His people and never ever taken them back as His people. Did God ever do that? Was it not till Jesus came and they nailed him that the Jews as a tribe were totally rejected as God's people in favor of the Israel of God?

Do you agree? I think your comment below mean you agree.

God never gave supernatural GIFTS to anyone outside Israel that's why Jesus said that such gifts are for only Israelites {Matthew 15:24} so the gifts continued for some times after Jesus in other for the Israelites to RECOGNIZE the one and only group practicing pure worship in the first century since there were several groups claiming worshipers of the God of Abraham. But after Christianity has been firmly established all such supernatural gifts ceased! 1Corinthians 13:8-10

Now it's only LOVE that will serve as evidence of pure worship {1Corinthians 13:13} as for supernatural gifts it has ended in the first century after Jesus declared saying NO ADDITION NO SUBTRACTION! Revelations 22:18-19
Thanks!

You said God didn't give the supernatural gift to anyone outside Israel. Perhaps you mean that when the supernatural gift was given during pentecost, it was only the Jews and perhaps also circumcised gentiles that received the gift. I don't want to believe that you mean to say that it was only the Jews that had such miraculous power all throughout the first century. That's not what you mean right?

There are some that believe that the power ceased back then. They reach their conclusion through deduction. The bible didnt say that that power will cease in the first century. Even if it ended, assuming the deduction were correct, we live in the last days where the prophecy of Joel, quoted by Peter, should have another fulfillment. It will now be a matter of debate to conclude if that fulfillment is happening now or it will happen in the future. But since we are almost at the end of this world, one will think that it is plausible that this prophecy should be fulfilling now.

About Rev 22:18-19, I want to believe you are just joking because you and I know that that's not what that scripture mean, right?

Sand2022:

You didn't get my point. We have established that humans err in trying to understand the bible. What I'm asking if it is reasonable to think that the correct understanding will always issue from one particular group of bible students.

There are bible scholars in different parts of the world. Since we are all fallible in understanding what the bible says, can we now say that the correct understanding of the bible will always come from one source that is also in itself fallible? Do you not see a possibility of Group A being right in one teaching and Group B being wrong, or Group A being wrong while Group B being right? Or even Group A and B being all wrong? Or even One Scholar being right while either Group being wrong?

God is not disturbed with the errors of His chosen ones {Psalms 103:12-14} what matters is their willingness to make amendments but as for anyone outside God's organization there's nothing for them because God will never ever use more than one channel!

Sand2022:

That's another scripture you refer to there. Iam discussing Matt 7 that you quoted earlier.

If we say that Jesus meant a group or a religion/denomination will it not mean that all in that group are all prophets? So you should look out for a group composed of prophesying prophets, of which all of them are fake? I can't recall any denomination that all members are prophets. If there is, then from your interpretation, it will mean that other churches that are not composed of all prophets are not being meant by Jesus words. That doesn't make sense, does it?

Seriously, Jesus meant false prophets, not any denomination.

Jesus was talking about groups led by false prophets {Matthew 7:15} the teachings of the false prophets will not yield positive result in the midst of their followers! Matthew 7:16-18

Sand2022:

True, if a false prophet is a GO of a church, then it's members are in danger. But a GO might be a true prophet but one or two members are false prophets. That's possible too. The GO won't be false because some in the church are false,right?

Naaaaaaaaaaaaa such can't happen in true Christianity it's either members obey the Body appointed by Jesus to lead them {Hebrews 13:7} or those who aren't ready to obey take their leave! 1John 2:19

Sand2022:

But of course, even if the reference was to a false denomination, it doesn't mean that all denominations are all false. Does it?

God's own organization is headed by a united BODY of elders so it's false religions that could be led by disunited false prophets! Luke 12:23

Sand2022:

Why are you adding what the verse didn't say. Jesus was praying for them to be one. Of course they are one, but it didn't mean that they never argued, that they never quarrelled, that none ever left Christianity for something else from first century till date. Is that true? They were not always thinking one thing. This should be easy for you to understand na bros.

We have Judas Iscariot, we have Hemeneaus and Phylectus, and Diotrephes, false apostles in Corinth etc. They will not all think one thing always.

True Christianity doesn't give room for diversity in doctrines {1Corinthians 1:10} diversity in doctrines is of the devil!

Sand2022:

If your meaning of reject is that God became angry with them, sent them on exile, allowed them to be defeated by their enemies, then I agree. We all know that that didn't mean that God rejected them, rather it was to discipline them to make amends. If they changed, he rescues them. Is that what you mean by reject? If so, I agree.

But that's not what I mean. I mean total rejection as His people and never ever taken them back as His people. Did God ever do that? Was it not till Jesus came and they nailed him that the Jews as a tribe were totally rejected as God's people in favor of the Israel of God?

God kept His promise until Jesus Christ came but after they rejected the Christ God condemned that nation for good! Matthew 21:43; 23:37-38

Sand2022:

Do you agree? I think your comment below mean you agree.
You said God didn't give the supernatural gift to anyone outside Israel. Perhaps you mean that when the supernatural gift was given during pentecost, it was only the Jews and perhaps also circumcised gentiles that received the gift. I don't want to believe that you mean to say that it was only the Jews that had such miraculous power all throughout the first century. That's not what you mean right?

It's the presence of Jewish disciples of Christ that such things occur after their death there's nothing like that anymore!

Sand2022:

There are some that believe that the power ceased back then. They reach their conclusion through deduction. The bible didnt say that that power will cease in the first century. Even if it ended, assuming the deduction were correct, we live in the last days where the prophecy of Joel, quoted by Peter, should have another fulfillment. It will now be a matter of debate to conclude if that fulfillment is happening now or it will happen in the future. But since we are almost at the end of this world, one will think that it is plausible that this prophecy should be fulfilling now.

About Rev 22:18-19, I want to believe you are just joking because you and I know that that's not what that scripture mean, right?

Well Jesus' statement there simply means the end of divine communication so everyone only need to study the Bible, miracles ended!

MaxInDHouse:


Don't be overly anxious yet try to assimilate.

Doctrines means teachings so if we are talking about the teachings of Christ which supposed to make LOVE, JOY and PEACE reign among his disciples they should be able to use Jesus' teachings to settle whatever differences they had instead of resorting to violence.
So do you think this people accepted Jesus as King?

Yes your question was stupid. The bible says God is love it also calls him Mighty in battle.
The war in Ukraine has nothing to do with religion.
You believe that if Catholics have the same doctrines then Russia would not invade Ukraine. How does that make sense.

Courz:
Jehovah's witnesses and their brains filled with shaft. They invent stories upon stories and assumptions to answer very simple questions. That one is using War as logic. The other one is using Pastors without beards as logic. What kind of brains do you have for goodness sake?

That one say the romans banned Beards therefore they can do likewise. I asked him if he is Roman, e begin to type story. Answer question from the Bible, Mba!

That one that is a Bible student ran away! Which kind human beings be this ones?

Shame
No sane man keeps responding to the taunting of a mad person
Do you want to help us or taunt us?
Are you under torment that we commemorate Jesus Christ death when there are others who do so, or our not putting on beards as if you can mention just any other group on earth that are more neater or modest in appearance. As if you don't have clergymen that don't put on beards
Your talk is very irrelevant
I guess you are in a better performing group with no name or works to prove

Aemmyjah:


Shame
No sane man keeps responding to the taunting of a mad person
Do you want to help us or taunt us?
Are you under torment that we commemorate Jesus Christ death when there are others who do so, or our not putting on beards as if you can mention just any other group on earth that are more neater or modest in appearance. As if you don't have clergymen that don't put on beards
Your talk is very irrelevant
I guess you are in a better performing group with no name or works to prove

But you are still responding to me. Why?

Why did you have to lie that Christian ministers don't keep beards when there are others who keep beards? Why did you mention pastors of other churches when you JWs are not part of them and wish for them to be destroyed at Armaggedon? Why mention Pastors without beards when they never banned their members from keeping Beards like you JWs do? What useless point are you trying to make?

Before you bring any analogy to address an argument, make sure it is sound and logical. Your point fell flat and became completely useless. You don't have anything tangible to say. Why is it that you couldn't explain from the Bible how you JWs arrived at 607 bce, 2520 years and 1914?

I am showing you why people believe you JWs teach lies and doctrines of Men. For the simple fact that none of you could explain yourselves without sounding stupid proves your doctrines are built with sand and fall apart once anyone analyses them with the most basic critical thinking skills.

And Yes, I repeat, your Memorial is actually a Satanic Black Mass Ceremony created by Watchtower to cause you JWs to reject the Sacrifice of Jesus unknowingly. I will keep repeating this over and over again. You are in a Satanic Cult disguised as a Christian Religion to deceive many to destruction. And the time has come for Watchtower to reap what they sowed when they went about deceiving many to dedicate their lives to a Satanic Cult. Now, they are selling Kingdom halls, Bethel branches and Assembly halls to settle their Child Sexual Abuse cases Pilling up on their heads. It is only the beginning.

MaxInDHouse:

God is not disturbed with the errors of His chosen ones {Psalms 103:12-14} what matters is their willingness to make amendments but as for anyone outside God's organization there's nothing for them because God will never ever use more than one channel!

Ok I think you agree, you only say that He accepts only the error of His chosen ones. It's ok. Who His chosen ones are differ from person to person. However, another will say that error is error. Well done.

Jesus was talking about groups led by false prophets {Matthew 7:15} the teachings of the false prophets will not yield positive result in the midst of their followers! Matthew 7:16-18

Almost similar. So the mention is about their leader who is a false prophet.

Naaaaaaaaaaaaa such can't happen in true Christianity it's either members obey the Body appointed by Jesus to lead them {Hebrews 13:7} or those who aren't ready to obey take their leave! 1John 2:19

Do the superfine apostles always obey?

God's own organization is headed by a united BODY of elders so it's false religions that could be led by disunited false prophets! Luke 12:23

Ok, this is also an agreement.

True Christianity doesn't give room for diversity in doctrines {1Corinthians 1:10} diversity in doctrines is of the devil!

And error is of God, right?

God kept His promise until Jesus Christ came but after they rejected the Christ God condemned that nation for good! Matthew 21:43; 23:37-38

Thanks for the agreement.

It's the presence of Jewish disciples of Christ that such things occur after their death there's nothing like that anymore!

So you agree that others not the Jews also had the miraculous gift. You do well.

Well Jesus' statement there simply means the end of divine communication so everyone only need to study the Bible, miracles ended!

So 1john, 2john, 3john and book of John were not divinely inspired?

Courz:


But you are still responding to me. Why?

Why did you have to lie that Christian ministers don't keep beards when there are others who keep beards? Why did you mention pastors of other churches when you JWs are not part of them and wish for them to be destroyed at Armaggedon? Why mention Pastors without beards when they never banned their members from keeping Beards like you JWs do? What useless point are you trying to make?

Before you bring any analogy to address an argument, make sure it is sound and logical. Your point fell flat and became completely useless. You don't have anything tangible to say. Why is it that you couldn't explain from the Bible how you JWs arrived at 607 bce, 2520 years and 1914?

I am showing you why people believe you JWs teach lies and doctrines of Men. For the simple fact that none of you could explain yourselves without sounding stupid proves your doctrines are built with sand and fall apart once anyone analyses them with the most basic critical thinking skills.

And Yes, I repeat, your Memorial is actually a Satanic Black Mass Ceremony created by Watchtower to cause you JWs to reject the Sacrifice of Jesus unknowingly. I will keep repeating this over and over again. You are in a Satanic Cult disguised as a Christian Religion to deceive many to destruction. And the time has come for Watchtower to reap what they sowed when they went about deceiving many to dedicate their lives to a Satanic Cult. Now, they are selling Kingdom halls, Bethel branches and Assembly halls to settle their Child Sexual Abuse cases Pilling up on their heads. It is only the beginning.

Ok

tctrills:

Yes your question was stupid. The bible says God is love it also calls him Mighty in battle.
The war in Ukraine has nothing to do with religion.
You believe that if Catholics have the same doctrines then Russia would not invade Ukraine. How does that make sense.

Well it makes sense to those that believe Mark 12:29-31 and John 13:34-35

So if it doesn't make sense to you we can understand! John 10:20

Sand2022:

Ok I think you agree, you only say that He accepts only the error of His chosen ones. It's ok. Who His chosen ones are differ from person to person. However, another will say that error is error. Well done.

Naaaaaaaaaaaaa the error of God's people totally differs from that of those who don't know His standard at all. Note that those who don't have God's laws do so many things that God will not permit his own people to do. So if His own people err it's based on a very high standard not just the common human rules.

Sand2022:

Almost similar. So the mention is about their leader who is a false prophet.

YES!

Sand2022:

Do the superfine apostles always obey?

I don't understand what you mean here!

Sand2022:

And error is of God, right?

Satan capitalize on man's imperfection to establish false religions {Matthew 13:25} so it's not God's fault! Deuteronomy 32:5

Sand2022:

So you agree that others not the Jews also had the miraculous gift. You do well.

No none Jews perform a single miracle they only received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues as sign of approval from God.

Sand2022:

So 1john, 2john, 3john and book of John were not divinely inspired?

Revelations was the last message Jesus passed so John decided to write his own gospel account which was meant to correct one error! John 21:20-23

The rest were letters from the Apostle who had Jesus last!

MaxInDHouse:


Well it makes sense to those that believe Mark 12:29-31 and John 13:34-35

So if it doesn't make sense to you we can understand! John 10:20

Its a foolish question even to those who believe Mark 12:29-31 and John 13:34-35. You are not a child and you have some intelligence. You know the war in Ukraine is not a religious war so why are you blaming it on the Catholics?

tctrills:

Its a foolish question even to those who believe Mark 12:29-31 and John 13:34-35. You are not a child and you have some intelligence. You know the war in Ukraine is not a religious war so why are you blaming it on the Catholics?

There is no tangible reason to engage in religion if we can't cohabit peacefully {2Timothy 3:5} that's why Jesus commanded that his own disciples MUST LOVE their neighbours {Mark 12:31} LOVE their fellow believers {John 13:34-35} and LOVE those who hate us (enemies) Matthew 5:43-48

So in what way can we engage in such and still think of wars? The best form of worship from God:

The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world! James 1:27

Wars will create more orphans and widows so logically it makes no practical sense!

MaxInDHouse:


Well it makes sense to those that believe Mark 12:29-31 and John 13:34-35

So if it doesn't make sense to you we can understand! John 10:20

To enlighten you further, I would create a post about all the religions against war and politics. You have a lot to learn. I would keep you updated.

MaxInDHouse:

There is no tangible reason to engage in religion if we can't cohabit peacefully {2Timothy 3:5} that's why Jesus commanded that his own disciples MUST LOVE their neighbours {Mark 12:31} LOVE their fellow believers {John 13:34-35} and LOVE those who hate us (enemies) Matthew 5:43-48

So in what way can we engage in such and still think of wars? The best form of worship from God:

The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world! James 1:27

Wars will create more orphans and widows so logically it makes no practical sense!

Oga what do you understand by separation of church and state?
Also. we both agreed that it was just for the children of Israel to war with Benjamin so you have no point.

tctrills:

To enlighten you further, I would create a post about all the religions against war and politics. You have a lot to learn. I would keep you updated.

Don't forget that wars was my field formerly and when it comes to those who are against it we know that it's only JWs because they're not just saying it rather they're practicing it and religiously preaching against it!

Before you create it note that there's one thing to declare your faith but it's another thing entirely for your faith to WORK {James 2:18-26} so if any religion say they're against wars how far have they been preaching zealously and industriously teaching people in their neighbourhood against WARS?

That's what makes JWs unique!

tctrills:

Oga what do you understand by separation of church and state?
Also. we both agreed that it was just for the children of Israel to war with Benjamin so you have no point.

No wahala thank God other followers are with us in the discussion whether there's point or not i leave it to them!

MaxInDHouse:


Don't forget that wars was my field formerly and when it comes to those who are against it we know that it's only JWs because they're not just saying it rather they're practicing it and religiously preaching against it!

Before you create it note that there's one thing to declare your faith but it's another thing entirely for your faith to WORK {James 2:18-26} so if any religion say they're against wars how far have they been preaching zealously and industriously teaching people in their neighbourhood against WARS?

That's what makes JWs unique!

Me too, I was a general in the Russian army so what's your point?
Do worry, I would educate you. This idea of no war is not original with JW. Also, it is a foolish idea. As long as wickedness abounds, there would always be a need to fight.

MaxInDHouse:


No wahala thank God other followers are with us in the discussion whether there's point or not i leave it to them!

Your followers should believe your doctrine or what you expect. It's not difficult to brainwash people.

tctrills:

Me too, I was a general in the Russian army so what's your point?
Do worry, I would educate you. This idea of no war is not original with JW. Also, it is a foolish idea. As long as wickedness abounds, there would always be a need to fight.

No wahala, my general.

The highlighted!

So of what use is the agreement on doctrines if errors can't be resolved among those having the same doctrine {2Timothy 3:16} only for them to settle using weapons? Matthew 26:52

tctrills:

Your followers should believe your doctrine or what you expect. It's not difficult to brainwash people.

At least they're learning from me us!

MaxInDHouse:


No wahala, my general.

The highlighted!

So of what use is the agreement on doctrines if errors can't be resolved among those having the same doctrine {2Timothy 3:16} only for them to settle using weapons? Matthew 26:52

Do you understand the separation of church and state? In a multi-religious nation, differences are not separated in the church. You guys don't do politics so what would you know?
Guy, no church can stop wars. Even God did not stop the war in heaven so it's foolish to resolve peacefully with someone about to kill you and take away your land.