Islamic Idolatry

For a religion who claims to practice the STRICTEST Monotheism, would it surprise you that both Mohammed AND Muslims are Idolaters?

This is a serious allegation to make if not backed up with EVIDENCE!
Let us check the meaning according to Islamic teachings.

Definition of Idolatry:
1. Secular Source (Muslim biased)
Shirk (Arabic: شرك širk) in Islam is the sin of idolatry or polytheism (i.e., the deification or worship of anyone or anything besides Allah). Islam teaches that God does not share His divine attributes with any partner.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

2. Islamic Source
The Qur‘an teaches that whenever the love, longing, loyalty and submission which are due to Allah, are focused upon other than Him, or others along with Him, then this is shirk – idolatry; setting-up partners with Allah. For as Islam sees things, whoever loves something, desires it, values it, and centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around it; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

https://thehumblei.com/tag/how-does-islam-define-idolatry/

3. Evidence from Allah in the Qur'an
Qur'an 39:3
“Look! [Only] exclusive faith is worthy of Allah, and those who take guardians besides Him [claiming,] ‘We only worship them so that they may bring us near to Allah.’ Allah will indeed judge between them concerning that about which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide someone who is a liar and an ingrate.”

Qur'an 109:1-6
“.....Dedicate yourself to the religion as a hanīf, and never be one of the polytheists. Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm; for if you do so, then you will indeed be among the wrongdoers.”


Now, Muslims will agree that worship goes beyond bowing down to an idol. It may also involve kissing, touching or reverencing any object or thing asside Allah. Invoking an object is not necessarily verbal is it?

Now, at the Kaaba,
1. There is a stone that came from paradise which used to be white but is now BLACK (because of sins of people touching it) that Muslims on pilgrimage touch and/kiss (they dont bow down to it)
2. The stone is shaped like a Vagina of a Woman and in the pre-islamic times, women used to touch it with their menstral blood probably for fertility sake.
3. Allahs apostle said that on judgment day, this Black stone would be given eyes and mouth to speak and it will testify for or against a Muslim's sincerity while touching it.
4. The Black stone became black because it has the power to suck/remove/take upon itself the sins of Muslims.

Even though, Muslims do not bow down to this stone, THEY worship and Invoke it by
1. Ascribing the power of forgiveness of sin to it (something only Allah has power to do)
2. Touching and/or kissing it as part of their religious excercise
3. Putting their hope in the black stone as an object to intercede for them on the day of judgement.

1. According to the first definition of Idolatry,
Muslims share the divine attribute of forgiveness of sin of Allah with the black stone.
2. According to the second definition of idolatry
Whoever centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around an object; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

Muslims center their hopes for forgiveness of sin on this black stone independently of Allah, thus the black stone becomes a deity of sacrilegious worship.

3. According to the third definition of Idolatry

According to Qur'an 39:3, if the purpose of the black stone is to get Muslims closer to Allah through the forgiveness of their sins, this is idolatry.
Also, exclusive FAITH belong only to Allah and not any object, he who therefore have faith is anything else (black stone) is an idolater.

According to Qur'an 109:1-6, Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm.

But some Muslims (like Umar) invoke the black stone by touching and/kissing/pointing to it even while they claim that it neither benefits nor harm them.


Like the Yorubas ascribe Olodumare to be the Creator but worship other Deities and put their trusts in various Charms, the Nlack Stone can be said to be the Muslim's EQUIVALENT of CHARMS (invoked by touching and/or kissing)


The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?



Cc:
LegalWolf:
AntiChristian:..
compton11:
haekymbahd:
mhmsadyq:
alfarouq:
ictplotter:
Watinani


References:
If any Muslim disagree with any of the assertions above, I'll be willing to provide EVIDENCES. For now, I assume that Muslims are aware and familiar with my claims.

However, I found an Islamic site that ANSWERED and PROVIDED more than enough references .

LegalWolf, keep to the Question if you know the answer. If you don't, there is no virtue in thrashing meaninglessly about.

REFERENCE: Islamic website


The Black Stone
13-07-2000
Question 1902

QUESTION
What's the importance of the BlackStone in Kaaba, what does represent ?

Answer
Praise be to Allah.

There are a number of ahaadeeth etc. about the Black Stone which we will quote for our brother so that he may learn from them.

1. The Black Stone was sent down by Allaah to this earth from Paradise.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; al-Nasaa’i, 2935. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).

2. The Stone was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When the Black Stone came down from Paradise, it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; Ahmad, 2792. Classed as saheeh by Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/219. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar classed it as qawiy (strong) in Fath al-Baari, 3/462).

(a) Al-Mubaarakfoori said in al-Marqaah: This means, the sins of the sons of Adam who touched the stone, caused it to turn black. The hadeeth should be taken at face value, because there is no reason not to, either narrated in a report or by virtue of common sense.

(Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi, 3/525)

(b) Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said: Some heretics tried to criticize this hadeeth by saying: How come the sins of the mushrikeen turned it black and the worship of the people of Tawheed did not make it white?

I answer by quoting what Ibn Qutaybah said: If Allaah had willed, that would have happened. But Allaah has caused it to be the case that black usually changes other colours and its not itself changed, which is the opposite to what happens with white.

(c) Al-Muhibb al-Tabari said: The fact that it is black is a lesson for those who have insight. If sins can have this effect on an inanimate rock, then the effect they have on the heart is greater.

See Fath al-Baari, 3/463

3. The Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allaah, Allaah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi, and as qawiy by al-Haafiz ibn Hajar in Fath al-Baari, 3/462

(4) Touching, kissing or pointing to the Black Stone – this is the first thing to be done when starting Tawaaf, whether it is for Hajj or ‘Umrah, or voluntary Tawaaf.

It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Makkaah, he came to the Black Stone and touched it, then he walked to the right of it and ran three times and walked four times [around the Ka’bah].

(narrated by Muslim, 1218).

(5) The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed the Black Stone, and his ummah followed his lead in doing so.

It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) came to the Black Stone and kissed it, then he said: “I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1520; Muslim, 1720)

(6) If a person is unable to kiss the Stone, he should touch it with his hand or something else, then he can kiss the thing with which he touched it.

(a) It was narrated that Naafi’ said: I saw Ibn ‘Umar touch the Stone with his hand then he kissed his hand. I said, I have never ceased to do this since I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) do it.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1268)

(b) It was narrated that Abu Tufayl (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performing Tawaaf around the House, touching the corner [where the Stone is] with a crooked staff which he had with him, then kissing the staff.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1275).

(7) If a person is unable to do the above, then he can point to it with his hand and say “Allaahu akbar”.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performed Tawaaf on his camel, and every time he came to the corner [where the Stone is] he would point to it and say “Allaahu akbar.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4987).

( Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah expiates for sins

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him).

It is not permissible for a Muslim to annoy other Muslims at the Stone by hitting or fighting. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that the Stone will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity, which is not the case when a person touches it by disturbing the slaves of Allaah.

And Allaah knows best.





https://www.google.com/amp
/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/1902

Cc:
LegalWolf:
AntiChristian:..
compton11:
haekymbahd:
mhmsadyq:
alfarouq:
ictplotter:
Watinani

If you are not sure, you needn't respond.

The Question again:
The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Thank you sirs!

TenQ:
REFERENCE: Islamic website


The Black Stone
13-07-2000
Question 1902

QUESTION
What's the importance of the BlackStone in Kaaba, what does represent ?

Answer
Praise be to Allah.

There are a number of ahaadeeth etc. about the Black Stone which we will quote for our brother so that he may learn from them.

1. The Black Stone was sent down by Allaah to this earth from Paradise.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; al-Nasaa’i, 2935. The hadeeth was classed as saheeh by al-Tirmidhi).

2. The Stone was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When the Black Stone came down from Paradise, it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 877; Ahmad, 2792. Classed as saheeh by Ibn Khuzaymah, 4/219. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar classed it as qawiy (strong) in Fath al-Baari, 3/462).

(a) Al-Mubaarakfoori said in al-Marqaah: This means, the sins of the sons of Adam who touched the stone, caused it to turn black. The hadeeth should be taken at face value, because there is no reason not to, either narrated in a report or by virtue of common sense.

(Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi, 3/525)

(b) Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said: Some heretics tried to criticize this hadeeth by saying: How come the sins of the mushrikeen turned it black and the worship of the people of Tawheed did not make it white?

I answer by quoting what Ibn Qutaybah said: If Allaah had willed, that would have happened. But Allaah has caused it to be the case that black usually changes other colours and its not itself changed, which is the opposite to what happens with white.

(c) Al-Muhibb al-Tabari said: The fact that it is black is a lesson for those who have insight. If sins can have this effect on an inanimate rock, then the effect they have on the heart is greater.

See Fath al-Baari, 3/463

3. The Black Stone will come forth on the Day of Resurrection and will testify in favour of those who touched it in truth.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allaah, Allaah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi, and as qawiy by al-Haafiz ibn Hajar in Fath al-Baari, 3/462

(4) Touching, kissing or pointing to the Black Stone – this is the first thing to be done when starting Tawaaf, whether it is for Hajj or ‘Umrah, or voluntary Tawaaf.

It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abd-Allaah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to Makkaah, he came to the Black Stone and touched it, then he walked to the right of it and ran three times and walked four times [around the Ka’bah].

(narrated by Muslim, 1218).

(5) The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kissed the Black Stone, and his ummah followed his lead in doing so.

It was narrated that ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him) came to the Black Stone and kissed it, then he said: “I know that you are only a stone which can neither bring benefit nor cause harm. Were it not that I had seen the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) kiss you, I would not have kissed you.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1520; Muslim, 1720)

(6) If a person is unable to kiss the Stone, he should touch it with his hand or something else, then he can kiss the thing with which he touched it.

(a) It was narrated that Naafi’ said: I saw Ibn ‘Umar touch the Stone with his hand then he kissed his hand. I said, I have never ceased to do this since I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) do it.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1268)

(b) It was narrated that Abu Tufayl (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performing Tawaaf around the House, touching the corner [where the Stone is] with a crooked staff which he had with him, then kissing the staff.

(Narrated by Muslim, 1275).

(7) If a person is unable to do the above, then he can point to it with his hand and say “Allaahu akbar”.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) performed Tawaaf on his camel, and every time he came to the corner [where the Stone is] he would point to it and say “Allaahu akbar.”

(Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4987).

( Touching the Stone is one of the things by means of which Allaah expiates for sins

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him).

It is not permissible for a Muslim to annoy other Muslims at the Stone by hitting or fighting. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us that the Stone will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity, which is not the case when a person touches it by disturbing the slaves of Allaah.

And Allaah knows best.





https://www.google.com/amp
/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/1902

Cc:
LegalWolf:
AntiChristian:..
compton11:
haekymbahd:
mhmsadyq:
alfarouq:
ictplotter:
Watinani

If you are not sure, you needn't respond.

The Question again:
The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Thank you sirs!

The deception is real.

This black stone issue is similar to the worship of Diana of Ephesus. It fell from heaven too. There are many such false religions in the world with the same black stone story. This is definitely Baal in different forms.

What about the Moon and Star symbol of Islam? I wish you or Sixfiguresmart and Advocatejare can educate us on this.

HisSplendor:


The deception is real.

This black stone issue is similar to the worship of Diana of Ephesus. It fell from heaven too. There are many such false religions in the world with the same black stone story. This is definitely Baal in different forms.

What about the Moon and Star symbol of Islam? I wish you or Sixfiguresmart and Advocatejare can educate us on this.

From the start, Islam has been having issues with the Character and doctrine of Mohammed . If not because the prophet and Messanger of Allah himself participated in the indirect black stone worship, Muslims would have been free. Unfortunately, it is not so.

This same Prophet of Islam received the Satanic Verses which was later abrogated.

The verse of breastfeeding an adult ten times was also "revealed" by this same prophet of Allah. It was a tame sheep that abrogated the verses, otherwise Muslim women would have been breastfeeding adults as a command of Allah.

What we are sure is that even Allah had to just indulge him for even sins he is yet to commit.

I think ONE-by-ONE, the veil of ignorance of Muslims would be removed. The TRUTH sets free indeed. You'll note that Muslims cannot talk here because the EVIDENCE is overwhelming and easy to find. Many Muslims don't even know much about the BLACK STONE and it's POWER as an advocate (besides Allah)!

It is easy to show that Allah may not be different from Mohammed and the spirit of Satan within him.

I truely pray for salvation for my Muslim friends and acquaintance especially here on Nairaland Antichristian, LegalWolf, haekymbahd and mhmsadyq. It looks like this is argument of supremacy but no: it is an UNVEILING of what was meant to be kept secret but will kill ultimately

The Qur'anic verse below is scarry: I wonder how Muslims sleep well with it

Qur'an 19:71-72
71. There is not one of you but shall come to it, that is, shall enter hell. That is an inevitability [already] decreed by your Lord, [something which] He made inevitable and [which] He decreed; He will not waive it. 72. Then We shall deliver those that feared Allah and leave the wrong-doers there on their knees

They will enter Hell before knowing the TRUTH!?

Pray for them. If my parents were Muslims, probably I'll be doing dawah like them too.

I don't know much about the moon and star as I've not bothered about it perhaps Sixfiguresmart may know. For me, there are more damaging issues.

Shalom

For Muslims reading this, the Question is just TWO questions:


The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

LOL! This liar called TenQ is so predictable! What do you expect from a Christian?

See my post here:

LegalWolf:
I think I need to make this point here.

This is the reason why no one takes TenQ seriously. We have asked him to produce evidence from Islamic literature that supports his premises 6 - 8 below. You will notice that he would avoid that question like plague or try to use ALL (not FIRST FOUR or ANY.. LOL) dubious tactics he can employ to divert the question. When logic fails him, he would abandon this thread and open another one mentioning us to provide answers to the questions therein . And you expect us to take him seriously?

We knew it. If I had lived just two thousand years ago, probably my letters right now to TenQ would have been taken as the word of God and deemed 'inspired'. And the hypocrite called Hissplendor saw clearly where TenQ forged a statement and attributed it to me. Or did you not? For your information, this is the fraud's statement:

TenQ:
Muslims reading can see that what was called a lie was just a conjecture of the liar.

1. Did Allah take Jesus to himself according to Islam?
Response: NOT A LIE!
2. Did Mary his mother, the eleven core disciples, the followers of Jesus and his brothers and sisters know that Jesus wasn't crucified not died?
Response: NOTHING IN ISLAMIC LITERATURE SUPPORTS THIS INFERENCE.

What DIFFERENT thing does the Islamic literatures support about Deception the beliefs of Mary, the Disciples, Siblings of Jesus and Christians with respect to Christ's death and resurrection?

Unfortunately, it can only be a LIE if Islamic literatures convincingly states OTHERWISE!

Since he has no EVIDENCE (from Islamic Literatures), he MANUFACTURES his OWN conclusion.

Abi, you don't know an answer to a historical event yet without evidence to the contrary you claimed "IT'S NOT CORRECT!"
How do you know?

You tell me which part of my answer to the second question that I say 'it is not correct'. The fraudstar even put a forged statement in inverted comma. In case you are blind, this is my second part to the question:

LegalWolf:

......

I am not disputing 1 the same way you would not dispute that yhwh rested on the 7th day of creation. But ALL I ask is for evidence for his second assertion. How would I prove your claim for you? Just to avoid long talk, he has asked again:

1. Did Allah take Jesus to himself according to Islam? [ABSOLUTELY YES]
2. Did Mary his mother, the eleven core disciples, the followers of Jesus and his brothers and sisters know that Jesus wasn't crucified not died? [TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, NOTHING IN ISLAMIC LITERATURE SUPPORTS THIS INFERENCE. IT CAN ONLY BE IN THE IMAGINATION OF THE QUESTIONER. IF THERE IS ANYTHING YOU HAVE THAT SPECIFICALLY SAYS THESE 5 PEOPLE DID NOT KNOW, PLEASE BRING IT
3. According to Allah, did it appear to them that Jesus was crucified? [SEE WHAT YOU FOLKS CALL TAQIYA SHAMELESSLY DISPLAYED HERE. WE READ IN-BETWEEN THE LINES AND ARE NOT LIKE YOUR SHEEPS. WHICH EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE THAT ACCORDING TO ALLAH , IT APPEARED TO MARY ET. ALL THAT JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED]

And if we decide not to respond to him because he will forge statements and attribute it to us, Hissplendor would start quoting baseless statistics that 80% of the time when people do not respond to questions, it is because they don't have answers. Hissplendor tell us before God and man whether TenQ LIED when he said my response to his second question is 'IT IS NOT CORRECT'.

At least, you were not part of our previous engagement. But what about this one?

Anyways, much more than yhwh, I could foresee TenQ will open a new thread and mention me. The piece of evidence is there for everyone to see that he is a fraudster. And I would not engage a fraudster on matters of religion. So may yhwh be with you. Oh I forgot, there was a time yhwh was with the people of Judah, and he could not help them defeat primitive people people because they had Iron chariot. Judges 1:19 It appears you are on your own, LOL

This is my first and last comment on this thread. Respectfully, I peace out!

LegalWolf:
LOL! This liar called TenQ is so predictable! What do you expect from a Christian?

See my post here:



We knew it. If I had lived just two thousand years ago, probably my letters right now to TenQ would have been taken as the word of God and deemed 'inspired'. And the hypocrite called Hissplendor saw clearly where TenQ forged a statement and attributed it to me. Or did you not? For your information, this is the fraud's statement:



You tell me which part of my answer to the second question that I say 'it is not correct'. The fraudstar even put a forged statement in inverted comma. In case you are blind, this is my second part to the question:


And if we decide not to respond to him because he will forge statements and attribute it to us, Hissplendor would start quoting baseless statistics that 80% of the time when people do not respond to questions, it is because they don't have answers. Hissplendor tell us before God and man whether TenQ LIED when he said my response to his second question is 'IT IS NOT CORRECT'.

At least, you were not part of our previous engagement. But what about this one?

Anyways, much more than yhwh, I could foresee TenQ will open a new thread and mention me. The piece of evidence is there for everyone to see that he is a fraudster. And I would not engage a fraudster on matters of religion. So may yhwh be with you. Oh I forgot, there was a time yhwh was with the people of Judah, and he could not help them defeat primitive people people because they had Iron chariot. Judges 1:19 It appears you are on your own, LOL

This is my first and last comment on this thread. Respectfully, I peace out!

You never cease to amaze me. The evidences are from your Islamic literatures.

Even after the warning, you went completely at tangent. All to avoid the topic and question as usual!

The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

LegalWolf,
I've responded to the Atheist thread you reopened (even when adequate response had been given).

Do you have an answer?

If the Black stone is an ordinary stone (which can neither harm not bless)
1. Why did Mohammed kiss it?
2. Why is the Blackstone in the Kaaba?


Thank you

HisSplendor:


The deception is real.

This black stone issue is similar to the worship of Diana of Ephesus. It fell from heaven too. There are many such false religions in the world with the same black stone story. This is definitely Baal in different forms.

What about the Moon and Star symbol of Islam? I wish you or Sixfiguresmart and Advocate jare can educate us on this.

Islam is simply idolatry,

Archaeological finds show that the dominant religion of Arabia was the cult of the Moon-god - Allah
• "Sìn, moon god of Semitic origin, worshiped in ancient Middle Eastern religions. One of the principal deities in the Babylonian and Assyrian pantheons.
Always depicted by the crescent moon

• The Old Testament constantly rebuked the worship of the Moon-god (see: Deut. 4:19;17:3; II Kngs.
21:3,5; 23:5; Jer. 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5)

Even if i prove you wrong, you still won't believe it. So i see no reason why would i waste my time explaining.

You've been taggin' me a lot and i keep mute not because i don't have reasons, but you are using undenify ways to win an arguments. Cause you are not ready to understand.

...And mind you everything we did in islam has a reason for doing it.

Watinani:
Even if i prove you wrong, you still won't believe it. So i see no reason why would i waste my time explaining.

You've been taggin' me a lot and i keep mute not because i don't have reasons, but you are using undenify ways to win an arguments. Cause you are not ready to understand.

...And mind you everything we did in islam has a reason for doing it.

Hello my brother!
I wasn't trying to win arguments otherwise, I would have kept my evidences as jokers. Some of what I speak of about Islam are products Muslims themselves don't bother asking questions about. I read several books by Ahmed Deedat then and he tore down every little knowledge I had about Christianity. I almost recited the shahada in my 200L until I decided to read the "Glorious Qur'an" an English translation of the Qur'an. Of course, I started from Surat-ul Al-Fathia and began to read on.

I began to see differences in narratives of prophets of Islam with the bible. I didn't have any problem with if the Qur'an contradicted the New testament BUT I had issues with if the Qur'an ALSO contradicted the Old Testament. I have read the English translation of the Tanakh (the scripture of the Jews) and see no difference with the Old Testament of the Christians. My logic was that it was impossible for Jews and Christians to conspire together to change their scripture. I was shocked that the Qur'an states equivocally that Jesus was not crucified not did He die on the cross (even secular historians are unanimous on this). Finally, My state library had a huge collection of Hadiths and me being a bookworm then began to read... learning about the Religion of Islam.

As Muslims, you take many things for granted and therefore DO NOT ask QUESTIONS! However, as a SEEKING person, I had to ask many questions (both about Christianity AND Islam) : and the answers has to be reasonable.

So, I ask questions because I wish Muslims will ask the same questions and profar logical and coherent answers consistent with both faith and reason.

If you note carefully, I rarely use evidences outside the literatures of Muslims and Science (if need be) to justify my assertions.

Now my friend:

QUESTIONS:
If the Black stone is an ordinary stone (which can neither harm not bless)
1. Why did Mohammed kiss it?
2. Why is the Blackstone in the Kaaba?
3. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
4. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

By the Islamic definition of SHIRK, how is this different?


Thank you for your understanding. I don't mind any Muslim asking me ANY Questions about Christianity too.

advocatejare:

Islam is simply idolatry,

Archaeological finds show that the dominant religion of Arabia was the cult of the Moon-god - Allah
• "Sìn, moon god of Semitic origin, worshiped in ancient Middle Eastern religions. One of the principal deities in the Babylonian and Assyrian pantheons.
Always depicted by the crescent moon

• The Old Testament constantly rebuked the worship of the Moon-god (see: Deut. 4:19;17:3; II Kngs.
21:3,5; 23:5; Jer. 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5)

Wow.

Quiet informative.

I hereby call the COWARD and cry-cry baby lawyer LegalWolf to answer the Questions he's been running away from.

QUESTIONS:
If the Black stone is an ordinary stone (which can neither harm not bless)
1. Why did Mohammed kiss the Blackstone?
2. LegalWolf, Why is the Blackstone in the Kaaba?
3. Can LegalWolf explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
4. Can LegalWolf explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

By the Islamic definition of SHIRK, how is this different?


I call you a lying coward to your face LegalWolf as you always ESCAPE answering questions about your prophet.

TenQ says: LegalWolf have gone technically DEAF and DUMB!

From the Nemesis of LegalWolf

LegalWolf:

I hereby call the COWARD and cry-cry baby lawyer LegalWolf to answer the Questions he's been running away from.

QUESTIONS:
If the Black stone is an ordinary stone (which can neither harm not bless)
1. Why did Mohammed kiss the Blackstone?
2. LegalWolf, Why is the Blackstone in the Kaaba?
3. Can LegalWolf explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
4. Can LegalWolf explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

By the Islamic definition of SHIRK, how is this different?

TenQ:

Hello my brother!
I wasn't trying to win arguments otherwise, I would have kept my evidences as jokers. Some of what I speak of about Islam are products Muslims themselves don't bother asking questions about. I read several books by Ahmed Deedat then and he tore down every little knowledge I had about Christianity. I almost recited the shahada in my 200L until I decided to read the "Glorious Qur'an" an English translation of the Qur'an. Of course, I started from Surat-ul Al-Fathia and began to read on.

I began to see differences in narratives of prophets of Islam with the bible. I didn't have any problem with if the Qur'an contradicted the New testament BUT I had issues with if the Qur'an ALSO contradicted the Old Testament. I have read the English translation of the Tanakh (the scripture of the Jews) and see no difference with the Old Testament of the Christians. My logic was that it was impossible for Jews and Christians to conspire together to change their scripture. I was shocked that the Qur'an states equivocally that Jesus was not crucified not did He die on the cross (even secular historians are unanimous on this). Finally, My state library had a huge collection of Hadiths and me being a bookworm then began to read... learning about the Religion of Islam.

As Muslims, you take many things for granted and therefore DO NOT ask QUESTIONS! However, as a SEEKING person, I had to ask many questions (both about Christianity AND Islam) : and the answers has to be reasonable.

So, I ask questions because I wish Muslims will ask the same questions and profar logical and coherent answers consistent with both faith and reason.

If you note carefully, I rarely use evidences outside the literatures of Muslims and Science (if need be) to justify my assertions.

Now my friend:

QUESTIONS:
If the Black stone is an ordinary stone (which can neither harm not bless)
1. Why did Mohammed kiss it?
2. Why is the Blackstone in the Kaaba?
3. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
4. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

By the Islamic definition of SHIRK, how is this different?


Thank you for your understanding. I don't mind any Muslim asking me ANY Questions about Christianity too.

Before i answered your questions please keep in mind that, there are many unauthentic hadith written by Jew's and other non Muslim just cause confusion and commotion in Islam.

There's a lot of verses and hadiths that you cannot understand it just by mere reading because you need alot of explanation on it from an Islamic scholars.

As the cornerstone of the Kaaba, the Black Stone is the most venerated stone on the face of the earth. Muslims wish to kiss it because the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) did so. However, keep in mind that the Black Stone is simply a stone. It is symbolic like a country’s flag is symbolic: something to respect and take pride in. Kissing it is not an obligation but a demonstration of love, just as you would kiss one of your children.

As the Second Khalifa of the Muslims, Umar bin al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) is quoted as saying:

I know that you are a stone, you do not cause benefit or harm; and if it were not that I had seen Allah’s Messenger – peace and blessings of Allah be upon him – kiss you, I would never have kissed you.

The Black Stone was given to Ibrahim from Jannah to be placed on the corner of the Holy Kaaba. Abd Allah Ibn Abbas – a cousin of Prophet Muhammad narrated that the Prophet said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise and it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam turned it black.”

According to Islamic scholars, duas are accepted at the Hajar al-Aswad and on the Day of Judgement, it will be testifying in favour of all those who have kissed it. The Prophet said: “By Allah! On the Day of Qiyamah (judgement), Allah will present the Hajar al-Aswad in such a manner that it will have two eyes and a tongue to testify to the Imaan (faith) of all those who kissed it.”

With regard to what some ignorant people think, that the purpose behind that is to seek blessing (barakah) from it, there is no basis for that, so it is invalid.

With regard to what some heretics have said, that circumambulating the Ka‘bah is like circumambulating the graves of their saints, and that it is tantamount to idolatry, this is part of their heresy. The believers only circumambulate it in compliance with the command of Allah, and whatever is done in compliance with the command of Allah, doing it is an act of worship of Allah, may He be exalted.

Do you not see that prostrating to anything other than Allah is major shirk (shirk akbar), but when Allah commanded the angels to prostrate to Adam, prostration to Adam was an act of worship to Allah, may He be exalted, and refusing to prostrate to him was an act of disbelief (kufr)?

Hence circumambulation of the Ka‘bah is one of the greatest acts of worship; it is the foundation of the Hajj, and Hajj is one of the pillars of Islam. Hence when the mataaf (place of tawaaf) is calm, the one who does tawaaf experiences the joy of tawaaf and feels in his heart that he is close to his Lord, which confirms the virtue and high status of the House of Allah. And it is Allah Whose help we seek. End quote.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn ’Uthaymeen (may Allah have mercy on him).

Fataawa al-‘Aqeedah (p. 28, 29).

1. To show his respect to Prophet Abraham. According to the history, the blackstone was given to Prophet Abraham in the process of building kabaa. So the blackstone is the icon of Abraham heritage.

2. To show his longing for Mecca (Makkah). History said that hajj al wada' (farewell hajj) is the only hajj ritual ever done by prophet Muhammad, and the only occasion he ever back to Mecca after settled in Madina, whereas Prophet Muhammad had very great love to his hometown.

3. To show gratitude to Allah SWT, since Prophet Muhammad entering Mecca with glory

The questions you're asking, how are they beneficial to you?

Dear Sir,
I truely appreciate you for your response. They were quite detailed in some place why not too satisfactory in others. Nevertheless, I truely appreciate your response.

You asked me a Question (final paragraph)

The questions you're asking, how are they beneficial to you?

The answer is NOT short (and I wouldn't mind answering them in another page). But the summary is that
1. I feel you have been deceived into having a God who you think and believe is the True God. Thus, you will enter Hell fire before you realise that you've been sincerely deceived. Qur'an 19:71 (All Muslims shall enter hell fire)

2. I am commanded by Christ Jesus to preach the Goodnews of God's solution to the problem of our nature of sin. The Goodnews is that God has PAID your Fine if only you will accept His Gift of Salvation!
Mar 16:15-16:
"And he said to them, Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned."
I also preach to "nominal or so-called Christians" and others, but mainly face to face.

3. I was almost a Muslim myself, so I understand your position as Muslims. The Empathy makes me help you ask Questions you will never ask or that you'll gloss over.
Why do you think Christians and Jews are FILTHY according to the Qur'an if we serve the same God?

So, my benefit is the JOY of having you SAVED from God's Damnation and you recieving Eternal Life with God in eternity.


My Questions were:
QUESTIONS:
If the Black stone is an ordinary stone (which can neither harm not bless)
1. Why did Mohammed kiss it?
2. Why is the Blackstone in the Kaaba?
3. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
4. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Thanks for your response again!

Watinani:


Before i answered your questions please keep in mind that, there are many unauthentic hadith written by Jew's and other non Muslim just cause confusion and commotion in Islam.

There's a lot of verses and hadiths that you cannot understand it just by mere reading because you need alot of explanation on it from an Islamic scholars.

1. I believe that early Muslim scholars have done justice to that by having a compilation of Sahih Hadiths. Like as Muslims (I assume you are Sunni) have six books you rate as Sahih and I don't go outside them in quoting for you.
2. It is almost impossible for Jews to write a hadith and circulate to the Muslim community because Muslims hate the Jews and were at war with the Jews. I don't know a single hadith that speak well about the Jews parhaps you know one
3. For explanations of the Quran, we have the Tafsirs don't we? Moreover, the hadiths were written in normal simple day-to-day Arabic unlike the Qur'an that was written as Rhymes/Poem. The hadiths usually gives a context to its narratives.
4. Finally, the Hadith Collections are Islamic Literatures written by early Muslims for Muslims: if they are untrustworthy, why keep them?

You'll agree with me that No Muslim will take it kindly with a Christian who rejects verses in his own accepted religious book.

Watinani:

As the cornerstone of the Kaaba, the Black Stone is the most venerated stone on the face of the earth. Muslims wish to kiss it because the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) did so. However, keep in mind that the Black Stone is simply a stone. It is symbolic like a country’s flag is symbolic: something to respect and take pride in. Kissing it is not an obligation but a demonstration of love, just as you would kiss one of your children.

As the Second Khalifa of the Muslims, Umar bin al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) is quoted as saying:

I know that you are a stone, you do not cause benefit or harm; and if it were not that I had seen Allah’s Messenger – peace and blessings of Allah be upon him – kiss you, I would never have kissed you.

I am aware that the black stone is supposed to be venerated because prophet Mohammad kissed it because it's supposed to neither benefit not harm (according to Umar)

BUT
Prophet Mohammed in the Hadiths seem to say OTHERWISE.

1. It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him).

2. It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allaah, Allaah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

Umar says the stone doesn't harm not benefit BUT Allah's Apostle said the stone will TESTIFY in FAVOUR of those who touched it sincerely AND is an EXPIATION For sin (absorbs/removes your sins)

Who then is WRONG? Allah's Apostle or Umar?

A flag truely has no power to harm not bless, but the Blackstone is NOT USELESS!

Watinani:

The Black Stone was given to Ibrahim from Jannah to be placed on the corner of the Holy Kaaba. Abd Allah Ibn Abbas – a cousin of Prophet Muhammad narrated that the Prophet said: “The Black Stone came down from Paradise and it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam turned it black.”

According to Islamic scholars, duas are accepted at the Hajar al-Aswad and on the Day of Judgement, it will be testifying in favour of all those who have kissed it. The Prophet said: “By Allah! On the Day of Qiyamah (judgement), Allah will present the Hajar al-Aswad in such a manner that it will have two eyes and a tongue to testify to the Imaan (faith) of all those who kissed it.”

With regard to what some ignorant people think, that the purpose behind that is to seek blessing (barakah) from it, there is no basis for that, so it is invalid.

With regard to what some heretics have said, that circumambulating the Ka‘bah is like circumambulating the graves of their saints, and that it is tantamount to idolatry, this is part of their heresy. The believers only circumambulate it in compliance with the command of Allah, and whatever is done in compliance with the command of Allah, doing it is an act of worship of Allah, may He be exalted.

I think my bone of contention is that
1. Allah's apostle says the STONE can absorb the sin of the believer who touched it sincerely.
2. The stone (which I believe is not omnipresent) will the given eyes and mouth
3. There is no iota of evidence which suggests that Abraham left Haram with his cattles over thousands of kilometres over the DESERT to build anything in Mecca. Just look at the Map and you'll be convinced.

Watinani:

Do you not see that prostrating to anything other than Allah is major shirk (shirk akbar), but when Allah commanded the angels to prostrate to Adam, prostration to Adam was an act of worship to Allah, may He be exalted, and refusing to prostrate to him was an act of disbelief (kufr)?

Hence circumambulation of the Ka‘bah is one of the greatest acts of worship; it is the foundation of the Hajj, and Hajj is one of the pillars of Islam. Hence when the mataaf (place of tawaaf) is calm, the one who does tawaaf experiences the joy of tawaaf and feels in his heart that he is close to his Lord, which confirms the virtue and high status of the House of Allah. And it is Allah Whose help we seek. End quote.

Shaykh Muhammad ibn ’Uthaymeen (may Allah have mercy on him).

Fataawa al-‘Aqeedah (p. 28, 29).

1. To show his respect to Prophet Abraham. According to the history, the blackstone was given to Prophet Abraham in the process of building kabaa. So the blackstone is the icon of Abraham heritage.

2. To show his longing for Mecca (Makkah). History said that hajj al wada' (farewell hajj) is the only hajj ritual ever done by prophet Muhammad, and the only occasion he ever back to Mecca after settled in Madina, whereas Prophet Muhammad had very great love to his hometown.

3. To show gratitude to Allah SWT, since Prophet Muhammad entering Mecca with glory

The questions you're asking, how are they beneficial to you?

I think I've been straight with this
1. Muslims do not prostrate to the Blackstone
2. Muslims do not see the Blackstone as a companion of Allah although a certain hadith (I'll try to look for it ) says that the Blackstone is the HAND of Allah).

However, it seems to me that Muslims regard the Blackstone as the Idolaters will regard their CHARMS.
What are the common things
1. Muslims don't prostrate to their charms: Just as Idolaters do not prostrate to their charms.
2. Muslims believe that the Blackstone has powers to help them (expiration of sins and testify for them on judgement day) : Just as Idolaters believe that their Chas has powers to protect them or grant them favours.
3. Muslims revere and venerate the Blackstone: just as Idolaters revere and venerate their charms.

For this reason I asked the question:
Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?

Umar or Mohammed, who is WRONG about the usefulness or lack of usefulness of the Blackstone?

Are Muslims conceding that in this case Umar was Rightly Guided but the prophet was not?

I asked this question below because BEFORE Islam, the Blackstone had been venerated and kissed by Arab Idolaters. Why would Prophet Mohammad continue with the tradition? I am Sure you know that part of the reasons the black stone became black was because women in pre-islamic times touch the stones with their period blood emission in hope that the black stone (which looked like a woman's private part) would give them fertility!
This was why I asked:
Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?




Thank you sir!

My Questions were:
QUESTIONS:
If the Black stone is an ordinary stone (which can neither harm not bless)
1. Why did Mohammed kiss it?
2. Why is the Blackstone in the Kaaba?
3. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
4. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Islamic Idolatry

For a religion who claims to practice the STRICTEST Monotheism, would it surprise you that both Mohammed AND Muslims are Idolaters?

This is a serious allegation to make if not backed up with EVIDENCE!
Let us check the meaning according to Islamic teachings.

Definition of Idolatry:
1. Secular Source (Muslim biased)
Shirk (Arabic: شرك širk) in Islam is the sin of idolatry or polytheism (i.e., the deification or worship of anyone or anything besides Allah). Islam teaches that God does not share His divine attributes with any partner.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

2. Islamic Source
The Qur‘an teaches that whenever the love, longing, loyalty and submission which are due to Allah, are focused upon other than Him, or others along with Him, then this is shirk – idolatry; setting-up partners with Allah. For as Islam sees things, whoever loves something, desires it, values it, and centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around it; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

https://thehumblei.com/tag/how-does-islam-define-idolatry/

3. Evidence from Allah in the Qur'an
Qur'an 39:3
“Look! [Only] exclusive faith is worthy of Allah, and those who take guardians besides Him [claiming,] ‘We only worship them so that they may bring us near to Allah.’ Allah will indeed judge between them concerning that about which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide someone who is a liar and an ingrate.”

Qur'an 109:1-6
“.....Dedicate yourself to the religion as a hanīf, and never be one of the polytheists. Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm; for if you do so, then you will indeed be among the wrongdoers.”


Now, Muslims will agree that worship goes beyond bowing down to an idol. It may also involve kissing, touching or reverencing any object or thing asside Allah. Invoking an object is not necessarily verbal is it?

Now, at the Kaaba,
1. There is a stone that came from paradise which used to be white but is now BLACK (because of sins of people touching it) that Muslims on pilgrimage touch and/kiss (they dont bow down to it)
2. The stone is shaped like a Vagina of a Woman and in the pre-islamic times, women used to touch it with their menstral blood probably for fertility sake.
3. Allahs apostle said that on judgment day, this Black stone would be given eyes and mouth to speak and it will testify for or against a Muslim's sincerity while touching it.
4. The Black stone became black because it has the power to suck/remove/take upon itself the sins of Muslims.

Even though, Muslims do not bow down to this stone, THEY worship and Invoke it by
1. Ascribing the power of forgiveness of sin to it (something only Allah has power to do)
2. Touching and/or kissing it as part of their religious excercise
3. Putting their hope in the black stone as an object to intercede for them on the day of judgement.

1. According to the first definition of Idolatry,
Muslims share the divine attribute of forgiveness of sin of Allah with the black stone.
2. According to the second definition of idolatry
Whoever centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around an object; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

Muslims center their hopes for forgiveness of sin on this black stone independently of Allah, thus the black stone becomes a deity of sacrilegious worship.

3. According to the third definition of Idolatry

According to Qur'an 39:3, if the purpose of the black stone is to get Muslims closer to Allah through the forgiveness of their sins, this is idolatry.
Also, exclusive FAITH belong only to Allah and not any object, he who therefore have faith is anything else (black stone) is an idolater.

According to Qur'an 109:1-6, Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm.

But some Muslims (like Umar) invoke the black stone by touching and/kissing/pointing to it even while they claim that it neither benefits nor harm them.


Like the Yorubas ascribe Olodumare to be the Creator but worship other Deities and put their trusts in various Charms, the Nlack Stone can be said to be the Muslim's EQUIVALENT of CHARMS (invoked by touching and/or kissing)


The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?




I’m tagging you before you claim that you are not aware of this challenge
Cc:
Empiree, ,
Rash4ductluv,
BabaHeekmat, ,
motayoayinde,
drlateef,
OBALOLA55
Vannessa7
Lukuluku69
hakeemhakeem
abduljabbar4
olaalekan
Friend22
uthlaw
Exc2000
AbuTwins
Akhirastriver
Akinbahm
Sino
IMAliyu
KayB
Gaskiyamagana
Alfarouq


References:
If any Muslim disagree with any of the assertions above, I'll be willing to provide EVIDENCES. For now, I assume that Muslims are aware and familiar with my claims.

However, I found an Islamic site that ANSWERED and PROVIDED more than enough references .

For a religion that prides itself as having the strictest monotheism , everyone will agree with me that the INVOCATION of the BLACKSTONE at the Kaaba is a very serious dent.

Unfortunately, till today, Muslims go to Mecca to invoke this Deity for the forgiveness of sin.

TenQ:

Dear Sir,
I truely appreciate you for your response. They were quite detailed in some place why not too satisfactory in others. Nevertheless, I truely appreciate your response.

You asked me a Question (final paragraph)

The answer is NOT short (and I wouldn't mind answering them in another page). But the summary is that
1. I feel you have been deceived into having a God who you think and believe is the True God. Thus, you will enter Hell fire before you realise that you've been sincerely deceived. Qur'an 19:71 (All Muslims shall enter hell fire)

2. I am commanded by Christ Jesus to preach the Goodnews of God's solution to the problem of our nature of sin. The Goodnews is that God has PAID your Fine if only you will accept His Gift of Salvation!
Mar 16:15-16:
"And he said to them, Go you into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believes not shall be damned."
I also preach to "nominal or so-called Christians" and others, but mainly face to face.

3. I was almost a Muslim myself, so I understand your position as Muslims. The Empathy makes me help you ask Questions you will never ask or that you'll gloss over.
Why do you think Christians and Jews are FILTHY according to the Qur'an if we serve the same God?

So, my benefit is the JOY of having you SAVED from God's Damnation and you recieving Eternal Life with God in eternity.


My Questions were:
QUESTIONS:
If the Black stone is an ordinary stone (which can neither harm not bless)
1. Why did Mohammed kiss it?
2. Why is the Blackstone in the Kaaba?
3. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?
4. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Thanks for your response again!


1. I believe that early Muslim scholars have done justice to that by having a compilation of Sahih Hadiths. Like as Muslims (I assume you are Sunni) have six books you rate as Sahih and I don't go outside them in quoting for you.
2. It is almost impossible for Jews to write a hadith and circulate to the Muslim community because Muslims hate the Jews and were at war with the Jews. I don't know a single hadith that speak well about the Jews parhaps you know one
3. For explanations of the Quran, we have the Tafsirs don't we? Moreover, the hadiths were written in normal simple day-to-day Arabic unlike the Qur'an that was written as Rhymes/Poem. The hadiths usually gives a context to its narratives.
4. Finally, the Hadith Collections are Islamic Literatures written by early Muslims for Muslims: if they are untrustworthy, why keep them?

You'll agree with me that No Muslim will take it kindly with a Christian who rejects verses in his own accepted religious book.


I am aware that the black stone is supposed to be venerated because prophet Mohammad kissed it because it's supposed to neither benefit not harm (according to Umar)

BUT
Prophet Mohammed in the Hadiths seem to say OTHERWISE.

1. It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and al-Rukn al-Yamani] is an expiation for sins.”

(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 959. This hadeeth was classed as hasan by al-Tirmidhi and as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/664). Al-Dhahabi agreed with him).

2. It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning the Stone: “By Allaah, Allaah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 961; Ibn Maajah, 2944

Umar says the stone doesn't harm not benefit BUT Allah's Apostle said the stone will TESTIFY in FAVOUR of those who touched it sincerely AND is an EXPIATION For sin (absorbs/removes your sins)

Who then is WRONG? Allah's Apostle or Umar?

A flag truely has no power to harm not bless, but the Blackstone is NOT USELESS!


I think my bone of contention is that
1. Allah's apostle says the STONE can absorb the sin of the believer who touched it sincerely.
2. The stone (which I believe is not omnipresent) will the given eyes and mouth
3. There is no iota of evidence which suggests that Abraham left Haram with his cattles over thousands of kilometres over the DESERT to build anything in Mecca. Just look at the Map and you'll be convinced.



I think I've been straight with this
1. Muslims do not prostrate to the Blackstone
2. Muslims do not see the Blackstone as a companion of Allah although a certain hadith (I'll try to look for it ) says that the Blackstone is the HAND of Allah).

However, it seems to me that Muslims regard the Blackstone as the Idolaters will regard their CHARMS.
What are the common things
1. Muslims don't prostrate to their charms: Just as Idolaters do not prostrate to their charms.
2. Muslims believe that the Blackstone has powers to help them (expiration of sins and testify for them on judgement day) : Just as Idolaters believe that their Chas has powers to protect them or grant them favours.
3. Muslims revere and venerate the Blackstone: just as Idolaters revere and venerate their charms.

For this reason I asked the question:
Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?

Umar or Mohammed, who is WRONG about the usefulness or lack of usefulness of the Blackstone?

Are Muslims conceding that in this case Umar was Rightly Guided but the prophet was not?

I asked this question below because BEFORE Islam, the Blackstone had been venerated and kissed by Arab Idolaters. Why would Prophet Mohammad continue with the tradition? I am Sure you know that part of the reasons the black stone became black was because women in pre-islamic times touch the stones with their period blood emission in hope that the black stone (which looked like a woman's private part) would give them fertility!
This was why I asked:
Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?




Thank you sir!

I have told you before that you only want to win an argument not to understand the facts, but don't worry I decide to play long with you

Talking about Why did prophet Mohammed kiss it?

According to my research, there's no guaranted point to why but Islamic scholars have said some thought regarding it as;

1. To show his respect to Prophet Abraham. According to the history, the blackstone was given to Prophet Abraham in the process of building kabaa. So the blackstone is the icon of Abraham heritage.
2. To show his longing for Mecca (Makkah). History said that hajj al wada' (farewell hajj) is the only hajj ritual ever done by prophet Muhammad, and the only occasion he ever back to Mecca after settled in Madina, whereas Prophet Muhammad had very great love to his hometown.
3. To show gratitude to Allah SWT, since Prophet Muhammad entering Mecca with glory

Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Because it's sunna to practice what prophet Muhammad did

Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?

Do you not see that prostrating to anything other than Allah is major shirk (shirk akbar), but when Allah commanded the angels to prostrate to Adam, prostration to Adam was an act of worship to Allah, may He be exalted, and refusing to prostrate to him was an act of disbelief (kufr)?

Umar or Mohammed, who is WRONG about the usefulness or lack of usefulness of the Blackstone?

They're both right, what Umar means is that the stone here in this world has nothing to harm or benefit the one kissing it but Umar (AS) is kissing and touching it because it's recommended by our holy prophet Muhammad.

Prophet Muhammad means Allah will let the stone be beneficial to those who practice what prophet Muhammad did to the stone in hereafter

I've told you that there are many unauthentic hadith written by Jew's and other non Muslim just cause confusion and commotion in Islam.

Listen amigo, Memoirs of Mr. Hempher, The British Spy to the Middle East or Confessions of a British Spy is a document purporting to be the account by an 18th-century British agent, Hempher, of his instrumental role in founding the conservative Islamic reform movement of Wahhabism, as part of a conspiracy to corrupt Islam. It first appeared in 1888, in Turkish, in the five-volume Mir'at al-Haramayn of Ayyub Sabri Pasha (who is thought to be the actual author by at least one scholar). It has been described as "apocryphal", a "forgery", "utter nonsense",and "an Anglophobic variation on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". It has been widely translated and disseminated, is available on the internet, and still enjoys some currency among some individuals in the Middle East and beyond. In 2002, an Iraqi military officer recapitulated the book in a "top secret document".

Read the article here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_of_Mr._Hempher,_The_British_Spy_to_the_Middle_East

Israeli Jews dress as Muslims to defy Al-Aqsa prayer ban https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/16/israeli-jews-dress-as-muslims-to-defy-ban-on-entry-to-al-aqsa

Jews are disguising themselves as Muslims to pray on Temple Mount – report https://www.timesofisrael.com/jews-are-disguising-themselves-as-muslims-to-pray-on-temple-mount-report/

Watinani:


I have told you before that you only want to win an argument not to understand the facts, but don't worry I decide to play long with you

I think I've explained this. I post to make muslims apply a little more reason to their faith. To make them answer questions they would never have asked themselves so that they would know the truth that will set them free. There is no prize for winning an argument on Nairaland: is there!?

Watinani:

Talking about Why did prophet Mohammed kiss it?

According to my research, there's no guaranted point to why but Islamic scholars have said some thought regarding it as;

1. To show his respect to Prophet Abraham. According to the history, the blackstone was given to Prophet Abraham in the process of building kabaa. So the blackstone is the icon of Abraham heritage.
2. To show his longing for Mecca (Makkah). History said that hajj al wada' (farewell hajj) is the only hajj ritual ever done by prophet Muhammad, and the only occasion he ever back to Mecca after settled in Madina, whereas Prophet Muhammad had very great love to his hometown.
3. To show gratitude to Allah SWT, since Prophet Muhammad entering Mecca with glory

I believe all the three points you have raised are modern conjectures. None of the early scholars like Ibn Abbas, Al tabari, etc have any of these views.

I think the issue is that before Islam, the same stone had been revered by Idolaters without any reference to Abraham because they didn't know Abraham. Is there any evidence that the pre-islamic Arab knew Abraham? If they didn't know Abraham, how can the stone be traced to him.

Secondly, it is possible to trace the movement of Abraham from his place of birth through the desert to Mecca. There was no trade route through just because of the desert. Can you present any evidence that Abraham could have traveled to Mecca?

Thirdly, your point 2 and 3 does not require any stone for Mohammed's longing for Mecca NOR Mohammed showing gratitude to Allah for bringing him back to Mecca.

Is their evidence that pre-islamic women used to touch the black stone with the blood of their menstruations?
Is it also true that the black stone is shaped like the private part of women?

Watinani:

Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?

Because it's sunna to practice what prophet Muhammad did

Is prophet Mohammad infallible?

Can Muslims TODAY follow exactly everything Mohammed did?

Examples:
1. Mohammed erroneously received the Satanic verses
2. Mohammed coveted and took the wife of his "son" (even if you call him adopted)
3. Can you have more than four wives as a Muslim man?
4. Since Mohammed took bath in a stinking pool of water contaminated with menstrial blood, dead dogs and filth?
5. While fasting During Ramadan, can you handle your wife while she's having her period?

Has Mohammed become God that he CANNOT make mistakes?
I want to say that there are any things Mohammed did that is unlawful for you as a Muslim

Watinani:


Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms of Idolaters ?

Do you not see that prostrating to anything other than Allah is major shirk (shirk akbar), but when Allah commanded the angels to prostrate to Adam, prostration to Adam was an act of worship to Allah, may He be exalted, and refusing to prostrate to him was an act of disbelief (kufr)?

1. Idolaters DO NOT prostrate to their charms, do they?
I have repeated it that Muslims do not worship nor now down to the black stone. I also said that the black stone is like a CHARM because of the obvious similarities.

I said:
However, it seems to me that Muslims regard the Blackstone as the Idolaters will regard their CHARMS.
What are the common things
1. Muslims don't prostrate to their charms: Just as Idolaters do not prostrate to their charms.
2. Muslims believe that the Blackstone has powers to help them (expiration of sins and testify for them on judgement day) : Just as Idolaters believe that their Chas has powers to protect them or grant them favours.
3. Muslims revere and venerate the Blackstone: just as Idolaters revere and venerate their charms.


Does the stone have the power to witness on behalf of the Muslims on judgement day?

Watinani:

Umar or Mohammed, who is WRONG about the usefulness or lack of usefulness of the Blackstone?

They're both right, what Umar means is that the stone here in this world has nothing to harm or benefit the one kissing it but Umar (AS) is kissing and touching it because it's recommended by our holy prophet Muhammad.

Prophet Muhammad means Allah will let the stone be beneficial to those who practice what prophet Muhammad did to the stone in hereafter

Both cannot be right my friend.
WHY!?
If the stone will witness for you as Muslims in FUTURE, then it is very USEFUL!
You point to or touch the stone while the stone is supposed to be ordinary, so how does it know if you are SINCERE or NOT if it is ordinary?

Your sins are committed while the stone is an ordinary stone, so, how can it be aware of your sins?

If I have a magical ring that is supposed to save my life during WAR, when does the ring become useful before, during or after the war? Does this fact change whether it is a charm of not?

Watinani:

I've told you that there are many unauthentic hadith written by Jew's and other non Muslim just cause confusion and commotion in Islam.

Listen amigo, Memoirs of Mr. Hempher, The British Spy to the Middle East or Confessions of a British Spy is a document purporting to be the account by an 18th-century British agent, Hempher, of his instrumental role in founding the conservative Islamic reform movement of Wahhabism, as part of a conspiracy to corrupt Islam. It first appeared in 1888, in Turkish, in the five-volume Mir'at al-Haramayn of Ayyub Sabri Pasha (who is thought to be the actual author by at least one scholar). It has been described as "apocryphal", a "forgery", "utter nonsense",and "an Anglophobic variation on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". It has been widely translated and disseminated, is available on the internet, and still enjoys some currency among some individuals in the Middle East and beyond. In 2002, an Iraqi military officer recapitulated the book in a "top secret document".

Read the article here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_of_Mr._Hempher,_The_British_Spy_to_the_Middle_East

Israeli Jews dress as Muslims to defy Al-Aqsa prayer ban https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/16/israeli-jews-dress-as-muslims-to-defy-ban-on-entry-to-al-aqsa

Jews are disguising themselves as Muslims to pray on Temple Mount – report https://www.timesofisrael.com/jews-are-disguising-themselves-as-muslims-to-pray-on-temple-mount-report/

This is a very weak excuse: an extremely weak argument.
You mean that the collectors of the SAHIH HADITHS collected reports from Jews? Are you saying that Jews wrote some of your Tafsirs?

The websites you sited are ALL recent write-ups. Can you give with evidence ANY Hadith in your six Sahih books or your Tafsirs by your ancient scholars that ALL Muslims agree that they were made by Jews?

All hadiths in Sahih Hadiths books were VERIFIED before compilation weren't they? So, can you explain how Jews in particular produced the hadiths and Tafsirs.

If Christians say that some verses in the bible were corrupted by the Muslims, what would be your take(would you think it is a good argument?)

TenQ:
Islamic Idolatry

For a religion who claims to practice the STRICTEST Monotheism, would it surprise you that both Mohammed AND Muslims are Idolaters?

This is a serious allegation to make if not backed up with EVIDENCE!
Let us check the meaning according to Islamic teachings.

Definition of Idolatry:
1. Secular Source (Muslim biased)
Shirk (Arabic: شرك širk) in Islam is the sin of idolatry or polytheism (i.e., the deification or worship of anyone or anything besides Allah). Islam teaches that God does not share His divine attributes with any partner.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

2. Islamic Source
The Qur‘an teaches that whenever the love, longing, loyalty and submission which are due to Allah, are focused upon other than Him, or others along with Him, then this is shirk – idolatry; setting-up partners with Allah. For as Islam sees things, whoever loves something, desires it, values it, and centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around it; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

https://thehumblei.com/tag/how-does-islam-define-idolatry/

3. Evidence from Allah in the Qur'an
Qur'an 39:3
“Look! [Only] exclusive faith is worthy of Allah, and those who take guardians besides Him [claiming,] ‘We only worship them so that they may bring us near to Allah.’ Allah will indeed judge between them concerning that about which they differ. Indeed, Allah does not guide someone who is a liar and an ingrate.”

Qur'an 109:1-6
“.....Dedicate yourself to the religion as a hanīf, and never be one of the polytheists. Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm; for if you do so, then you will indeed be among the wrongdoers.”


Now, Muslims will agree that worship goes beyond bowing down to an idol. It may also involve kissing, touching or reverencing any object or thing asside Allah. Invoking an object is not necessarily verbal is it?

Now, at the Kaaba,
1. There is a stone that came from paradise which used to be white but is now BLACK (because of sins of people touching it) that Muslims on pilgrimage touch and/kiss (they dont bow down to it)
2. The stone is shaped like a Vagina of a Woman and in the pre-islamic times, women used to touch it with their menstral blood probably for fertility sake.
3. Allahs apostle said that on judgment day, this Black stone would be given eyes and mouth to speak and it will testify for or against a Muslim's sincerity while touching it.
4. The Black stone became black because it has the power to suck/remove/take upon itself the sins of Muslims.

Even though, Muslims do not bow down to this stone, THEY worship and Invoke it by
1. Ascribing the power of forgiveness of sin to it (something only Allah has power to do)
2. Touching and/or kissing it as part of their religious excercise
3. Putting their hope in the black stone as an object to intercede for them on the day of judgement.

1. According to the first definition of Idolatry,
Muslims share the divine attribute of forgiveness of sin of Allah with the black stone.
2. According to the second definition of idolatry
Whoever centres their hopes, fears, love and loyalty around an object; submitting to it independently of Allah, then this, for them, becomes a deity, a god, an object of sacrilegious worship.

Muslims center their hopes for forgiveness of sin on this black stone independently of Allah, thus the black stone becomes a deity of sacrilegious worship.

3. According to the third definition of Idolatry

According to Qur'an 39:3, if the purpose of the black stone is to get Muslims closer to Allah through the forgiveness of their sins, this is idolatry.
Also, exclusive FAITH belong only to Allah and not any object, he who therefore have faith is anything else (black stone) is an idolater.

According to Qur'an 109:1-6, Never invoke besides Allah that which neither benefits you nor can do you any harm.

But some Muslims (like Umar) invoke the black stone by touching and/kissing/pointing to it even while they claim that it neither benefits nor harm them.


Like the Yorubas ascribe Olodumare to be the Creator but worship other Deities and put their trusts in various Charms, the Nlack Stone can be said to be the Muslim's EQUIVALENT of CHARMS (invoked by touching and/or kissing)


The QUESTION:
1. Can Muslims explain on the contrary why the black stone may not be equivalent to Magical Charms?
2. Can Muslims explain WHY they point to or kiss/or touch the black stone as part of their religious activities during their pilgrimage?




I’m tagging you before you claim that you are not aware of this challenge
Cc:
...

References:
If any Muslim disagree with any of the assertions above, I'll be willing to provide EVIDENCES. For now, I assume that Muslims are aware and familiar with my claims.

However, I found an Islamic site that ANSWERED and PROVIDED more than enough references .

I see you tagged me, unfortunately these topics don't interest me.
Could it be a form of idolatry by Islam's own definition? probably. But I can't bring myself to care about it, and it seems practicing Muslims don't either.

I see no point in playing apologetics for a set of
beliefs that are unfalsifiable, nor do I hold to be true.

What happens when Allah appears in a shape for which you Muslims do not recognize him!?"

What happens when the black stone cannot INTERCEDE for you as Muslims because it's only a STONE!?

My duty is to be a plain Warner to those who can think!

Of course, I won't confuse you with the truth: when you know the Truth, it sets you FREE

IMAliyu:

I see you tagged me, unfortunately these topics don't interest me.
Could it be a form of idolatry by Islam's own definition? probably. But I can't bring myself to care about it, and it seems practicing Muslims don't either.

I see no point in playing apologetics for a set of
beliefs that are unfalsifiable, nor do I hold to be true.

The topic was not posted to interest you. The topic is to make you review your beliefs!
It could be that the best of DECIEVERS have DECEIVED you.

When you know the Truth, the Truth set you free.

By their fruit, you shall know the false prophets!

I am only a Warner, to challenge you to look once again because FAITH is NOT blind!

TenQ:
What happens when Allah appears in a shape for which you Muslims do not recognize him!?"

What happens when the black stone cannot INTERCEDE for you as Muslims because it's only a STONE!?

My duty is to be a plain Warner to those who can think!

Of course, I won't confuse you with the truth: when you know the Truth, it sets you FREE

The topic was not posted to interest you. The topic is to make you review your beliefs!
It could be that the best of DECIEVERS have DECEIVED you.

When you know the Truth, the Truth set you free.

By their fruit, you shall know the false prophets!

I am only a Warner, to challenge you to look once again because FAITH is NOT blind!

I think you're mistaken about my beliefs.

Me being Muslim is merely a cultural identity, I no longer practice, nor hold any of the beliefs, nor a belief in any God(s). I'm agnostic.

IMAliyu:

I think you're mistaken about my beliefs.

Me being Muslim is merely a cultural identity, I no longer practice, nor hold any of the beliefs, nor a belief in any God(s). I'm agnostic.

Oh, I see!
I'm truly in error about you then.

Logically, if there is a God who created this world, and this world is a place of selection; there are only THREE religions in the whole world that may speak some truths about Him. These are Islam, Judaism and Christianity.

Don't let the poison of One of them deny you of a relationship with your Creator.

Even though you claim agnosticism, deep in your heart you know that consciousness in creations could NOT have been a product of a cosmic accident.

If ANYTHING seem off about the Christian faith, I'll be willing to give LOGICAL explanations to them.

Faith is NOT Blind!
A blind Faith is a stupid faith.

Shalom!

TenQ:

Oh, I see!
I'm truly in error about you then.

Logically, if there is a God who created this world, and this world is a place of selection; there are only THREE religions in the whole world that may speak some truths about Him. These are Islam, Judaism and Christianity.

Don't let the poison of One of them deny you of a relationship with your Creator.

Even though you claim agnosticism, deep in your heart you know that consciousness in creations could NOT have been a product of a cosmic accident.

If ANYTHING seem off about the Christian faith, I'll be willing to give LOGICAL explanations to them.

Faith is NOT Blind!
A blind Faith is a stupid faith.

Shalom!

Nah the basis of my disillusionment would be the same with all other faiths, unless that can be resolved, the only honest answer I can ever have is "I don't know"
And if someone claims to know, I'm inclined to demand for evidence to backup their claims

Like, how did you logically deduce that if a God existed he'd only be from one of the Abrahamic faiths?

Anyway
It all leads back to this https://www.nairaland.com/5942094/how-should-one-find-out
Granted I feel I could have worded things better.

It's the lack of falsifiability, or empiricism in religious beliefs, that bothered me, and disillusioned me even when I wanted to keep believing and practicing.

I loathe the possibility that I won't get to call you a potential thief or throw jabs at you. It is something I cannot even imagine it will happen.

TenQ:

Oh, I see!
I'm truly in error about you then.

Logically, if there is a God who created this world, and this world is a place of selection; there are only THREE religions in the whole world that may speak some truths about Him. These are Islam, Judaism and Christianity.

Don't let the poison of One of them deny you of a relationship with your Creator.

Even though you claim agnosticism, deep in your heart you know that consciousness in creations could NOT have been a product of a cosmic accident.

If ANYTHING seem off about the Christian faith, I'll be willing to give LOGICAL explanations to them.

Faith is NOT Blind!
A blind Faith is a stupid faith.

Shalom!

(underline mine)

By the way, unlike Aliyu who may drop off from this conversation, Islam is more than cultural for me. It is a way of life, a religion, code of conduct and a pathway to interacting with my Creator. In contrast, almost EVERYTHING about Christianity looks off to me. I will break it down into three classes for easy understanding:

1. Many theological doctrines such as trinity, atonement, original sin, salvation, Biblical inspiration for the NT etc.

2. I hear (or probably read) rumors about the historicity of the Bible. That many of the books were not written by those purported to have authored them. Take a look at what scholars called 'Markan Appendix' or Chapter 16 of the Book of Mark. Older biblical texts in Greek do not contain this part but here we have it. So apparently it was forged and many Christians may even consider those portions as 'word of God'. This looks off to me.

3. I have read the bible extensively and I have issues with EVERY book of the Bible. I mean from Genesis to Revelation. This is not a matter of me asking you questions and you will be bringing Quranic verses to explain because I will actually bait you like I did with Gen 2:3 and 4:4 and you won't find alternative anywhere in Islamic literature.

So can you please give me a LOGICAL explanation to all my questions about Christianity that looks odd?

LegalWolf:
I loathe the possibility that I won't get to call you a potential thief or throw jabs at you. It is something I cannot even imagine it will happen.

(underline mine)

By the way, unlike Aliyu who may drop off from this conversation, Islam is more than cultural for me. It is a way of life, a religion, code of conduct and a pathway to interacting with my Creator. In contrast, almost EVERYTHING about Christianity looks off to me. I will break it down into three classes for easy understanding:

1. Many theological doctrines such as trinity, atonement, original sin, salvation, Biblical inspiration for the NT etc.

2. I hear (or probably read) rumors about the historicity of the Bible. That many of the books were not written by those purported to have authored them. Take a look at what scholars called 'Markan Appendix' or Chapter 16 of the Book of Mark. Older biblical texts in Greek do not contain this part but here we have it. So apparently it was forged and many Christians may even consider those portions as 'word of God'. This looks off to me.

3. I have read the bible extensively and I have issues with EVERY book of the Bible. I mean from Genesis to Revelation. This is not a matter of me asking you questions and you will be bringing Quranic verses to explain because I will actually bait you like I did with Gen 2:3 and 4:4 and you won't find alternative anywhere in Islamic literature.

So can you please give me a LOGICAL explanation to all my questions about Christianity that looks odd?

If I want to behave like you LegalWolf in particular and Muslims generally, I will write EVERY OTHER thing except Answering the Questions.
1. Of course I will respond to your questions BUT you must be willing to use the same acceptable standard as you would use to judge your Qur'an and Islam as a whole.
2. Your question ONE is a multiple of Questions that require good explanations therefore we shall both focus on each one at a time.
Logically and Religiously I will attempt to respond to each of them.
3. Before we start however, we must come to the same page. It is meaningless if you define a concept differently from the way Christian know it to be.
Eg. If you insist that Trinity means 3 Gods and as Christians our God is ONLY one God, we go no where. The best you can do is to comprehend the logical and theological purpose and reason for a concept and judge!
4. I usually refrain from using the bible as an evidence of ANY Christian theological concept with Muslims (because you don't believe it anyway) except to just buttress a point. I use your Qur'an, Hadiths and Tafsirs.
5. Your question 2 and 3 is just one single question and I will combine them together as such.
6. Each of my response would be preceded First of some very short answer questions to You that I expect short TRUTHFUL answers, then I will proceed to answer the question of the topic ONCE ALL the questions are SATISFACTORILY answered. Please no evasive answers: straight to the point.

The First topic would be Trinity!

QUESTION:
Do you accept ALL the SIX Conditions above?

Note:
I have a busy day today please?

LOL!

TenQ:

If I want to behave like you LegalWolf in particular and Muslims generally, I will write EVERY OTHER thing except Answering the Questions.

If I want to behave like you TenQ in particular and Christians generally, I will write EVERY OTHER thing except answering the questions. And I say this with all sense of humility. All I will just do is to repeat the questions and say they stare at your face. Shikenan!

TenQ:

1. Of course I will respond to your questions BUT you must be willing to use the same acceptable standard as you would use to judge your Qur'an and Islam as a whole.

I have always maintained that the best way to teach people is to make them 'feel' exactly what they do to others. Just barely admonishing them won't help. Mr. TenQ, you are doing exactly the same thing I do when I want to answer your questions. Even as recently as yesterday or so, I wanted to answer your questions on Mutah and I gave you a condition that you should just make commitments that you will stand by your words. Oh I cannot find where you made the commitment, or did you? If you remember, one of our earliest conversations was translating inna isa wa malaikatahu yussalun.... . I did tell you I will translate but just allow me to put yhwh or the NT into the witness box. Did you accept the condition?

You want me to accept the same standards I judge the Quran and Islam as a whole with Bible and Christianity but do you do the same?

TenQ:

2. Your question ONE is a multiple of Questions that require good explanations therefore we shall both focus on each one at a time.
Logically and Religiously I will attempt to respond to each of them.
3. Before we start however, we must come to the same page. It is meaningless if you define a concept differently from the way Christian know it to be.
Eg. If you insist that Trinity means 3 Gods and as Christians our God is ONLY one God, we go no where. The best you can do is to comprehend the logical and theological purpose and reason for a concept and judge!

I am unsure you know who you are engaging with. If we have the same starting point, then divergence may not be fundamental. But our starting point is theologically and logically flawed. Suppose I say 1+1 = 5 and I am telling you that you should not insist that this is mathematically impossible. Rather, the best you can do is to comprehend the logical and theological purpose and reason for a concept and judge . What would be your response to be me. Please be truthful and honest in your answer

TenQ:

4. I usually refrain from using the bible as an evidence of ANY Christian theological concept with Muslims (because you don't believe it anyway) except to just buttress a point. I use your Qur'an, Hadiths and Tafsirs.

But you lie with some of the statements you make. And even when we try to correct you, you insist on your lies. Take for example, you were the one who said Injil is ALL the books of the Christians and that same Injil is the first four books of the Christians. Logically, these two statements cannot be true at the same time and in fact both are false. If you acknowledge that Injil actually means one gospel, and one of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, that buttresses my point and I know you would find it difficult to pick which of the Anajeel the Quran was making reference to. You knew this and ran away. You want us to see things from Christian perspective but turn a blind eye to ours

TenQ:

5. Your question 2 and 3 is just one single question and I will combine them together as such.

Nope, they are not. 2 borders on the history of each of the Books and essentially on who wrote them. The implication is if they were truly written by their purported authors, they will be fine and we can accept these books (I will like start from Matthew being the first book of your 27 books cannon) are truly God's words. But if not, I think it goes without saying that they are not.

On 3, I assume that these books were truly authored by whom they are and I start picking up holes and illogicality in them. I mean from theological standpoint. An example which I did was Gen 4:4 on sacrifices (which I used Hebrews 9:13) to explain. So here, I will walk through each and every Book of the Bible and telling you my problems with it. (On genesis, I have at least 20 issues, Exodus about 12, I cannot remember Numbers.. John I think 21 or so)

TenQ:

6. Each of my response would be preceded First of some very short answer questions to You that I expect short TRUTHFUL answers, then I will proceed to answer the question of the topic ONCE ALL the questions are SATISFACTORILY answered. Please no evasive answers: straight to the point.

The First topic would be Trinity!

QUESTION:
Do you accept ALL the SIX Conditions above?

Note:
I have a busy day today please?

Nope, I do not accept ALL your conditions (if the six were to be conditions) because:
- You expect me to start from an illogical premise that betrays common sense which I would not
- On your no 6, you said you will ask me 'short answer questions' which I do not understand the meaning of'
- You mumble my questions 2 and 3 together which are completely separate
- I need you to use the Bible to explain your point. The question of whether I believe it or not is irrelevant. You can only draw references to the Talmud, Mishnah, Quran, Sunnah etc. to show similarities not as a starting point of your explanation. Who does that?
- You are giving me conditions without even asking if I have my conditions to engage you, or did you ask me?
- Lastly, on trinity and even some of these topics, I have read some tidbits of what you have written about them in your posts before. Where you not the one who used the example of body and soul to refer to trinity in one of your comments? I doubt if you have anything new to say from the rehash of what others have said. Or do you?

LegalWolf:
LOL!




If I want to behave like you TenQ in particular and Christians generally, I will write EVERY OTHER thing except answering the questions. And I say this with all sense of humility. All I will just do is to repeat the questions and say they stare at your face. Shikenan!



I have always maintained that the best way to teach people is to make them 'feel' exactly what they do to others. Just barely admonishing them won't help. Mr. TenQ, you are doing exactly the same thing I do when I want to answer your questions. Even as recently as yesterday or so, I wanted to answer your questions on Mutah and I gave you a condition that you should just make commitments that you will stand by your words. Oh I cannot find where you made the commitment, or did you? If you remember, one of our earliest conversations was translating inna isa wa malaikatahu yussalun.... . I did tell you I will translate but just allow me to put yhwh or the NT into the witness box. Did you accept the condition?

You want me to accept the same standards I judge the Quran and Islam as a whole with Bible and Christianity but do you do the same?



I am unsure you know who you are engaging with. If we have the same starting point, then divergence may not be fundamental. But our starting point is theologically and logically flawed. Suppose I say 1+1 = 5 and I am telling you that you should not insist that this is mathematically impossible. Rather, the best you can do is to comprehend the logical and theological purpose and reason for a concept and judge . What would be your response to be me. Please be truthful and honest in your answer



But you lie with some of the statements you make. And even when we try to correct you, you insist on your lies. Take for example, you were the one who said Injil is ALL the books of the Christians and that same Injil is the first four books of the Christians. Logically, these two statements cannot be true at the same time and in fact both are false. If you acknowledge that Injil actually means one gospel, and one of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, that buttresses my point and I know you would find it difficult to pick which of the Anajeel the Quran was making reference to. You knew this and ran away. You want us to see things from Christian perspective but turn a blind eye to ours



Nope, they are not. 2 borders on the history of each of the Books and essentially on who wrote them. The implication is if they were truly written by their purported authors, they will be fine and we can accept these books (I will like start from Matthew being the first book of your 27 books cannon) are truly God's words. But if not, I think it goes without saying that they are not.

On 3, I assume that these books were truly authored by whom they are and I start picking up holes and illogicality in them. I mean from theological standpoint. An example which I did was Gen 4:4 on sacrifices (which I used Hebrews 9:13) to explain. So here, I will walk through each and every Book of the Bible and telling you my problems with it. (On genesis, I have at least 20 issues, Exodus about 12, I cannot remember Numbers.. John I think 21 or so)



Nope, I do not accept ALL your conditions (if the six were to be conditions) because:
- You expect me to start from an illogical premise that betrays common sense which I would not
- On your no 6, you said you will ask me 'short answer questions' which I do not understand the meaning of'
- You mumble my questions 2 and 3 together which are completely separate
- I need you to use the Bible to explain your point. The question of whether I believe it or not is irrelevant. You can only draw references to the Talmud, Mishnah, Quran, Sunnah etc. to show similarities not as a starting point of your explanation. Who does that?
- You are giving me conditions without even asking if I have my conditions to engage you, or did you ask me?
- Lastly, on trinity and even some of these topics, I have read some tidbits of what you have written about them in your posts before. Where you not the one who used the example of body and soul to refer to trinity in one of your comments? I doubt if you have anything new to say from the rehash of what others have said. Or do you?

I am sorry!
If you can't accept these propositions, there is no point continuing with the conversation as it is a waste of time!

Have a nice day!

TenQ:

I am sorry!
If you can't accept these propositions, there is no point continuing with the conversation as it is a waste of time!

Have a nice day!

LOL! That's is your business. All I am just praying for is that you should write a post and mention me and any other Muslim. You know you were triggered with the jabs I threw at yhwh. Don't worry, it will be x 10 this time around!

Have a nice day!

IMAliyu:

Nah the basis of my disillusionment would be the same with all other faiths, unless that can be resolved, the only honest answer I can ever have is "I don't know"
And if someone claims to know, I'm inclined to demand for evidence to backup their claims

Like, how did you logically deduce that if a God existed he'd only be from one of the Abrahamic faiths?

Anyway
It all leads back to this https://www.nairaland.com/5942094/how-should-one-find-out
Granted I feel I could have worded things better.

It's the lack of falsifiability, or empiricism in religious beliefs, that bothered me, and disillusioned me even when I wanted to keep believing and practicing.

You said:
Like, how did you logically deduce that if a God existed he'd only be from one of the Abrahamic faiths?

1. In the whole world, is their any God that demands EXCLUSIVE worship?
2. In the whole world,is their any God that promises a Resurrection from the dead after this life?
3. In the whole world, is there any God that promises a recompense for good or evil that men do to their neighbours while on earth?

I think only the Abrahamic God fulfills ALL these three above.

I am sure you know that if God exists indeed, he must judge between the good and the bad and give a recompense for their actions here on earth!