LordReed:


There is no demonstrated being or thing with such an attribute, it other words it's not real.

That is not what I asked, I asked "do you agree with this explanation/definition or do you dispute it?"

Abdulgaffar22:

Blasphemy to affirm that God cannot change His nature ?

Now you are twisting like a Serpent. You saw I said it is blasphemy to defame God and reduce Him to your level most especially when I know where you are heading to which is another blasphemy in the pipes.

Abdulgaffar22:

But Bible is clear that God does not change His nature (Malachi 3:6).

We Christians who own the Bible and for whom it is written for verily know what it means and we do not have any dispute about it.

Thus, a plumber may read the medical book and have certain views which appears logical to him but every doctor knows that whatever his views, he is wrong and crazy.

Just as no one goes to a painter for medical advice, so also should anyone listen to you Muslims about the Bible. It is just plain wrong and insanity.

Your views are already automatically invalid and even my scrutiny and query has already shown your invalidity.

Your Muslim thinking and heart can not be used to interpret the Bible.

Thus, as I said, God has a right to do whatever He wants upon His Toys, change or no change, You have no right whatsoever to look into Him. It is very insultive (blasphemy).

Dtruthspeaker:


That is not what I asked, I asked "do you agree with this explanation/definition or do you dispute it?"

How can I agree or disagree with it?

LordReed:


How can I agree or disagree with it?

We have already seen you agree or disagree on many other things therefore, you can do so here, so agree or disagree

"do you agree with this explanation/definition or do you dispute it?"

Dtruthspeaker:


Now you are twisting like a Serpent. You saw I said it is blasphemy to defame God and reduce Him to your level most especially when I know where you are heading to which is another blasphemy in the pipes.



We Christians who own the Bible and for whom it is written for verily know what it means and we do not have any dispute about it.

Thus, a plumber may read the medical book and have certain views which appears logical to him but every doctor knows that whatever his views, he is wrong and crazy.

Just as no one goes to a painter for medical advice, so also should anyone listen to you Muslims about the Bible. It is just plain wrong and insanity.

Your views are already automatically invalid and even my scrutiny and query has already shown your invalidity.

Your Muslim thinking and heart can not be used to interpret the Bible.

Thus, as I said, God has a right to do whatever He wants upon His Toys, change or no change, You have no right whatsoever to look into Him. It is very insultive (blasphemy).

There are several logical reasons why God must be immutable, that is, why it is impossible for God to change. First, if anything changes, it must do so in some chronological order. There must be a point in time before the change and a point in time after the change. Therefore, for change to take place it must happen within the constraints of time; however, God is eternal and exists outside of the constraints of time (Psalm 33:11; 41:13).

Second, the immutability of God is necessary for His perfection. If anything changes, it must change for the better or the worse, because a change that makes no difference is not a change. For change to take place, either something that is needed is added, which is a change for the better; or something that is needed is lost, which is a change for the worse. But, since God is perfect, He does not need anything. Therefore, He cannot change for the better. If God were to lose something, He would no longer be perfect; therefore, He cannot change for the worse.

Take it or leave it ; Uncreated Creator can never be a part of His creation

Abdulgaffar22:
Being an omnipotent, can God just change Himself to become anything He likes ?
1. Essence of God is outside the world of space and time because God has been in existence before the creation of space and time.
2. Hence, for God to become anything else and therefore dwell inside the world of space and time, His nature has to undergo a change.
3. But God cannot just decide to change His own nature because He did not create His nature at first instance. His nature did not begin to exist and hence no need to be created.
If God's own nature was created by His will, then He can decide to re-create it again and then change it according to His will. But this is not the case because His nature need not to be created at first instance since His nature has no beginning of existence.
4. Therefore, if God cannot just decide to change His own nature as explained in (3) above, then God (who is outside the world of space and time) cannot just decide to change and become anything else that can dwell inside the world of space and time. This is because such a real confinement of God inside a world of space and time must definitely involved a change in God's nature. Yet His nature cannot be changed (Malachi 3:6).

5. In conclusion, if Man really dwell inside the world of space and time and God is really outside the world of space and time, then God cannot change to become a Man or anything else apart from His original essence. This is why God is Eternal and immutable !.

The omnipotence of God is over what God has created by His will and this include the world of space and time. That is to say, God is omnipotent i:e all powerful over all what He has created by His will ; not over something that God did not create by His will (like God's own nature). God's own nature need not to be created since His nature has no beginning of existence.

So, your are attempting to use your Quranic understanding of omnipotence to resolve that which is instead or scripture?

That makes no sense whatsoever!

Abdulgaffar22:

There are several logical reasons why God must be immutable, that is, why it is impossible for God to change.

There are reasons why you should wear a cloth or you should remove them but all in all it is not in the place of your mannequin to state that this is who you are or this is who you are not.

So everything you say is completely rubbish and invalid and insultive to God!

You have no authority to do so neither are you qualified to do so. You are completely out of order.

Go back to your Koran and leave our Bible alone. As mechanics can not give any valid talk about heart surgery so also can you a Muslim not give any valid talk about the Bible. You are out of line and order

I know you have no respect for God but we do and it is our Bible not yours, so you can not make any valid comment therefrom!

Dtruthspeaker:


We have already seen you agree or disagree on many other things therefore, you can do so here, so agree or disagree

"do you agree with this explanation/definition or do you dispute it?"

I cannot disagree or agree with the definition of an attribute I have no demonstration of. Essentially you are asking me to agree or disagree something I don't know. Not possible for me.

Abdulgaffar22:
■Omnipotence is the ability to do anything that is logically possible to do. The true concept of omnipotence does not include the power to do something that is logically impossible.
■ For God to change His own nature or for God to kill Himself is logically impossible !

1. So, omnipotence, by Quranic definition, is limited to the scope of logic?

Abdulgaffar22:
■Blasphemy to affirm that God cannot change His nature ? But Bible is clear that God does not change His nature (Malachi 3:6). There are several logical reasons why God must be immutable, that is, why it is impossible for God to change. First, if anything changes, it must do so in some chronological order. There must be a point in time before the change and a point in time after the change. Therefore, for change to take place it must happen within the constraints of time; however, God is eternal and exists outside of the constraints of time (Psalm 33:11; 41:13).
■ Second, the immutability of God is necessary for His perfection. If anything changes, it must change for the better or the worse, because a change that makes no difference is not a change. For change to take place, either something that is needed is added, which is a change for the better; or something that is needed is lost, which is a change for the worse. But, since God is perfect, He does not need anything. Therefore, He cannot change for the better. If God were to lose something, He would no longer be perfect; therefore, He cannot change for the worse.

1. I think you will make more sense if you instead stop trying to confuse Allah with the God of Israel because your idea of omnipotence differs entirely from that described in scripture.

2. Wrong! Again, stop mistaking Allah for the God of Israel. The two books do not express the same ideas regarding the person of God.

LordReed:


But you said the god CANNOT lie, not will not lie. One is about ability and the other is about the will. You will not poo even though you can.

Maybe you should come for the OP because I am merely responding to what they said so you can't be blaming me for what you call childish sense.

Yes, i used it to explain the absurdity since you asked for what stopped God seeing He has "unlimited authority to lie".

LordReed:


I cannot disagree or agree with the definition of an attribute I have no demonstration of. Essentially you are asking me to agree or disagree something I don't know. Not possible for me.

First of for you to be against omnipotentness as you have already expressed, then you know about it. Else you would not have said anything here

So you can no longer claim "you don't know' that is a Lie for you have shown us you know, most especially as you are the one who presented the most popular definition

So answer "do you agree with this explanation/definition or do you dispute it?"

Dtruthspeaker:


First of for you to be against omnipotentness as you have already expressed, then you know about it. Else you would not have said anything here

So you can no longer claim "you don't know' that is a Lie for you have shown us you know, most especially as you are the one who presented the most popular definition

So answer "do you agree with this explanation/definition or do you dispute it?"

How am I against it when all I did was ask if the god has the attribute or not?

Image123:



Yes, i used it to explain the absurdity since you asked for what stopped God seeing He has "unlimited authority to lie".

No, I am referring to your asking me the definition and then saying my understanding of it was childish when all I did was ask a question. The follow up question was based on your own statements of what omnipotence is. I didn't ask about "unlimited authority to lie" until after your own definition. If there is any absurdity it certainly isn't from me since all I did was ask questions based on what either you or Abdulgaffar22 said.

LordReed:


No, I am referring to your asking me the definition and then saying my understanding of it was childish when all I did was ask a question. The follow up question was based on your own statements of what omnipotence is. I didn't ask about "unlimited authority to lie" until after your own definition. If there is any absurdity it certainly isn't from me since all I did was ask questions based on what either you or Abdulgaffar22 said.

Because i am not just knowing you and other unbelievers from this thread, i explained the childishness.

Image123:



Because i am not just knowing you and other unbelievers from this thread, i explained the childishness.

Maybe your response was childish that's why your prejudice is seeing it everywhere.

LordReed:


Maybe your response was childish that's why your prejudice is seeing it everywhere.

It was scriptural and gainsay-proof.

Image123:



It was scriptural and gainsay-proof.

Like I am supposed to care.

LordReed:


Like I am supposed to care.

You care.

Image123:


You care.

LoLz. He's now a mind reader. Bwahahahahaha!

Abdulgaffar22:
Being an omnipotent, can God just change Himself to become anything He likes ?


1. Essence of God is outside the world of space and time because God has been in existence before the creation of space and time.


2. Hence, for God to become anything else and therefore dwell inside the world of space and time, His nature has to undergo a change.


3. But God cannot just decide to change His own nature because He did not create His nature at first instance. His nature did not begin to exist and hence no need to be created.


If God's own nature was created by His will, then He can decide to re-create it again and then change it according to His will. But this is not the case because His nature need not to be created at first instance since His nature has no beginning of existence.

4. Therefore, if God cannot just decide to change His own nature as explained in (3) above, then God (who is outside the world of space and time) cannot just decide to change and become anything else that can dwell inside the world of space and time. This is because such a real confinement of God inside a world of space and time must definitely involved a change in God's nature. Yet His nature cannot be changed (Malachi 3:6).

5. In conclusion, if Man really dwell inside the world of space and time and God is really outside the world of space and time, then God cannot change to become a Man or anything else apart from His original essence. This is why God is Eternal and immutable !.

The omnipotence of God is over what God has created by His will and this include the world of space and time. That is to say, God is omnipotent i:e all powerful over all what He has created by His will ; not over something that God did not create by His will (like God's own nature). God's own nature need not to be created since His nature has no beginning of existence.

T
You are thinking for God the same way Obidients are thinking for obi. What if God could and/ or had done this before? Have you seen God before? God said 'I am '

I chose whatever I want to be: that is the meaning.

MightySparrow:


T
You are thinking for God the same way Obidients are thinking for obi. What if God could and/ or had done this before? Have you seen God before? God said 'I am '

I chose whatever I want to be: that is the meaning.

I can see that you are new on this post.
Do you really have interest in knowing the truth or you want to argue blindly like those who completely sealed their minds because of their preconceived notion ?

If you really have interest in knowing the truth, let us start and consider the points one after the other.

First, do you agree that a change usually involve a conversion from initial state to a final state ?

Abdulgaffar22:


I can see that you are new on this post.
Do you really have interest in knowing the truth or you want to argue blindly like those who completely sealed their minds because of their preconceived notion ?

If you really have interest in knowing the truth, let us start and consider the points one after the other.

First, do you agree that a change usually involve a conversion from initial state to a final state ?

I totally agree with you on the bolded, however,
So God has now changed His 'I Am'?

Okay give your own meaning to the name. I humbly want to learn.

MightySparrow:


I totally agree with you on the bolded,

Good ! You have agreed that a change usually involve a conversion from initial state to final state. For an illustration, wheat flour is the initial state and the bread is the final state.

Now the second point : do you agree that for something to change, the time required for the existence of its initial state must have been completed or finished before its final state can begin to exist ?

For an illustration, if the wheat flour is the initial state and the bread is the final state, then the time required for the existence of that wheat flour must have been completed or finished before the bread can begin to exist.

Please do you agree ?

MightySparrow:


however,So God has now changed His 'I Am'?

Okay give your own meaning to the name. I humbly want to learn.

God introduced Himself to Moses as I AM WHO I AM (Exodus 3:14). This name of God signifies His eternal nature. That is to say God always was and always will remain the same without changing ;

“Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. “But You are the same,
And Your years will not come to an end (Psalm 102:26-27)

But if you believe the phrase "I AM WHO I AM" implies God can change Himself to anything He likes, please bring a biblical evidence to support your view.

LordReed:


How am I against it when all I did was ask if the god has the attribute or not?

Now you have changed post from "cannot disagree or agree with the definition to "I don't know" to "How am I against it" all to avoid answering the question "do you agree with this explanation/definition or do you dispute it?"

You have no valid thing to say on this thread but just here to be the devil that you are!

Dtruthspeaker:


Now you have changed post from "cannot disagree or agree with the definition to "I don't know" to "How am I against it" all to avoid answering the question "do you agree with this explanation/definition or do you dispute it?"

You have no valid thing to say on this thread but just here to be the devil that you are!

Mmm hmm comman force me to agree or disagree naw. Bwahahahahaha!

LordReed:


Mmm hmm comman force me to agree or disagree naw. Bwahahahahaha!

I was not interested in your answer I knew you would dodge so I wanted everyone to see that you are a dodging devil.

Abdulgaffar22:


I can see that you are new on this post.
Do you really
First, do you agree that a change usually involve a conversion from initial state to a final state?

First that sparrow guy is not new but an old anti Christian idiot and his opinions are not representative of the Christian Doctrine which I know you are setting up to attack!

Secondly, Thank God that you recognise The Truth in saying "Usually". Which means "not always"

Which means all you are going to say (which you have already said) has already fallen down most especially as in your presentation, you now completely cut off and abandoned the "not always" part.

So in the end your presentation is not True!

Dtruthspeaker:


I was not interested in your answer I knew you would dodge so I wanted everyone to see that you are a dodging devil.

And everyone can see you have poor thinking and reasoning. Bwahahahahaha!

LordReed:


And everyone can see you have poor thinking and reasoning. Bwahahahahaha!

Says stupid dodging devil who fled from his post as soon as I attacked. Weak Devil.

Dtruthspeaker:


Says stupid dodging devil who fled from his post as soon as I attacked. Weak Devil,

LoLz! So poor in reasoning that all you have left is blabbering like the village jester. Bwahahahahaha!

LordReed:


LoLz! So poor in reasoning that all you have left is blabbering like the village jester. Bwahahahahaha!

Says stupid dodging devil who fled his post and started running all over the place as soon as I attacked. Weak Stupid Devil,