The research I have done on this subject produced me with different understanding as to whom this group refers to. This post is not to mock any differing view, since the bible didn't explicitly provide the answer as to who this group is, one doesn't need to be dogmatic on this issue.

scholars are divided as to the identity of this group. Some say it literally refers to the Jews while others say it refers to all genuine christians. Deeper Life sees this group as referring to Israelites at the time of the end.

Jehovah's witnesses think the group literally are those going to heaven. They feel that the number started to be gathered from first century and would continue to the end of this world.

There is a good reason to see this 144000 as referring to all true christians at the time of the end.

First, the timing of the event.

Rev 7:3
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
3 saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we shall have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.

This shows that the event was still future, it will happen before the final destruction of this world. This shows that the 144000 will be available on earth close to the end of this age. So the understanding by JWs that the counting starts from the first century is wrong.

2. Execution of those not marked.

This will help us put a meaning to whom this 144000 refers to. At Rev 9:4, we read:

"And it was said unto them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only such men as have not the seal of God on their foreheads."

Here shows that those to be spared are only those with the mark on their foreheads. This refers to the 144000 mentioned at Rev 7:3,4. This would mean that the 144000 are all true christians, because it would be unthinkable that only a literal 144000 would be spared from the wrath and the rest of the faithful christians punished.

My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians during the period close to consummation of this age.

Sand2022:
My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians during the period close to consummation of this age.

First things first, the 144,000 are all Israelites. This from the context of the very same book of Revelation where you claim to have gotten your information from. Second, they all have the mark of God, and according to scripture, those who were marked by God were instead those sent out into the world to bring back their brothers and sisters — Israel — from all the ends of the world - Isaiah 66 vs 18 - 23 meaning these are people who were sent out from the beginning of the march to gather the lost sheep of Israel, and so are not of this age.

Sand2022:

The research I have done on this subject produced me with different understanding as to whom this group refers to. This post is not to mock any differing view, since the bible didn't explicitly provide the answer as to who this group is, one doesn't need to be dogmatic on this issue.

scholars are divided as to the identity of this group. Some say it literally refers to the Jews while others say it refers to all genuine christians. Deeper Life sees this group as referring to Israelites at the time of the end.

Jehovah's witnesses think the group literally are those going to heaven. They feel that the number started to be gathered from first century and would continue to the end of this world.

There is a good reason to see this 144000 as referring to all true christians at the time of the end.

First, the timing of the event.

Rev 7:3
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
3 saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we shall have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.

This shows that the event was still future, it will happen before the final destruction of this world. This shows that the 144000 will be available on earth close to the end of this age. So the understanding by JWs that the counting starts from the first century is wrong.

2. Execution of those not marked.

This will help us put a meaning to whom this 144000 refers to. At Rev 9:4, we read:

"And it was said unto them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only such men as have not the seal of God on their foreheads."

Here shows that those to be spared are only those with the mark on their foreheads. This refers to the 144000 mentioned at Rev 7:3,4. This would mean that the 144000 are all true christians, because it would be unthinkable that only a literal 144000 would be spared from the wrath and the rest of the faithful christians punished.

My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians during the period close to consummation of this age.

Do you know what is seal of God on their foreheads?
It's the prayer mark on those who prostrate...
In essence Muslims.
Your research is leading you somewhere.
Kudos

qwertyboss:
Do you know what is seal of God on their foreheads? It's the prayer mark on those who prostrate... In essence Muslims. Your research is leading you somewhere. Kudos

Um.... That makes no sense of any kind. God is spirit and you think the seal He would place on men is a superficial one — one of the human body?

Sand2022:

My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians during the period close to consummation of this age.

Don't you people see when you read? The Bible clearly said 12000 from each of the tribes in Israel and Isreal is not the whole world.

Kobojunkiee:
First things first, the 144,000 are all Israelites. This from the context of the very same book of Revelation where you claim to have gotten your information from. Second, they all have the mark of God, and according to scripture, those who were marked by God were instead those sent out into the world to bring back their brothers and sisters — Israel — from all the ends of the world - Isaiah 66 vs 18 - 23 meaning these are people who were sent out from the beginning of the march to gather the lost sheep of Israel, and so are not of this age.

If you're saying that the 144000 are Israelites, and that these Israelites are the marked ones sent out to gather their brothers, Israelites. Hmm.

Verse 18 says:

18For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who escape to the nations—to Tarʹshish, Pul, and Lud, those who draw the bow, to Tuʹbal and Jaʹvan, and to the faraway islands—who have not heard a report about me or seen my glory; and they will proclaim my glory among the nations.

From that verse, it is clear that those who get the message are people of the nations, not Jews. Am I missing something?

Secondly, remember that those exempted from the "hurt" of Rev 9:4 are those having the mark only. Meaning that others get hurt. Our interpretation should therefore encompass all through christians as God can't smite His own faithful people right?

From your understanding those whom the message is declared to as in verse 19, will be hurt.

Sand2022:

The research I have done on this subject produced me with different understanding as to whom this group refers to. This post is not to mock any differing view, since the bible didn't explicitly provide the answer as to who this group is, one doesn't need to be dogmatic on this issue.

scholars are divided as to the identity of this group. Some say it literally refers to the Jews while others say it refers to all genuine christians. Deeper Life sees this group as referring to Israelites at the time of the end.

Jehovah's witnesses think the group literally are those going to heaven. They feel that the number started to be gathered from first century and would continue to the end of this world.

There is a good reason to see this 144000 as referring to all true christians at the time of the end.

First, the timing of the event.

Rev 7:3
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,
3 saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we shall have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.

This shows that the event was still future, it will happen before the final destruction of this world. This shows that the 144000 will be available on earth close to the end of this age. So the understanding by JWs that the counting starts from the first century is wrong.

Revelation 7:9-10 says no. JWs are right.
If your claims were true, you are inferring that the Great Crowd who owe their salvation to the God & to the Lamb would be destroyed (harmed) because they are NEVER sealed .

Sand2022:


2. Execution of those not marked.

This will help us put a meaning to whom this 144000 refers to. At Rev 9:4, we read:

"And it was said unto them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only such men as have not the seal of God on their foreheads."

Here shows that those to be spared are only those with the mark on their foreheads. This refers to the 144000 mentioned at Rev 7:3,4. This would mean that the 144000 are all true christians, because it would be unthinkable that only a literal 144000 would be spared from the wrath and the rest of the faithful christians punished.

My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians during the period close to consummation of this age.

Revelation 7:9-10 says not only 144,000 would be saved.

The sealing of 144,000 is guarantee of their heavenly calling to rule with Christ as "kings and priests", Revelation 1:5-6., Revelation 5:10

Dtruthspeaker:


Don't you people see when you read? The Bible clearly said 12000 from each of the tribes in Israel and Isreal is not the whole world.

Why you dey read your Bible upside down?
Is Revelation 7:9-10 in your Bible?
The great multitude (crowd) owe their salvation to the God and to the Lamb, were they sealed?

The great crowd is not the 144,000.
Only 144000 is sealed for heavenly life.

Janosky:

Why you dey read

The great crowd is not the 144,000.
.

This is what I am saying. Op said "My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians

So the great multitude are in lake of fire according to him.

Dtruthspeaker:


Don't you people see when you read? The Bible clearly said 12000 from each of the tribes in Israel and Isreal is not the whole world.

It is clear and some tribes of Israel are mentioned. However, to get the meaning, you would need to compare what else is said of that same group in another scripture.

Sand2022:

It is clear and some tribes of Israel are mentioned. However, to get the meaning, you would need to compare what else is said of that same group in another scripture.

Some tribes? Is 1200 times 12 not 144000?

Sand2022:
■If you're saying that the 144000 are Israelites, and that these Israelites are the marked ones sent out to gather their brothers, Israelites. Hmm. From that verse, it is clear that those that have the mark are people of all the nations, not Jews. Am I missing something?
■Secondly, remember that those exempted from the "hurt" of Rev 9:4 are those having the mark only. Meaning that others get hurt. Our interpretation should therefore encompass all through christians as God can't smite His own faithful people right?

1. The context of that passage begins from about verse 7 where God makes clear that what is said is in reference to Jerusalem.

2. As for where you got the information on the 144,000 from, It is explained that they were taken from the 12 tribes of Israel.... 12,000 from each tribe.

Sand2022:
It is clear and some tribes of Israel are mentioned. However, to get the meaning, you would need to compare what else is said of that same group in another scripture.

What other meaning?

Dtruthspeaker:


This is what I am saying. Op said "My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians

So the great multitude are in lake of fire according to him.

Janosky:

Revelation 7:9-10 says no. JWs are right.
If your claims were true, you are inferring that the Great Crowd who owe their salvation to the God & to the Lamb would be destroyed (harmed) because they are NEVER sealed .

Fair question. Let's consider the timing for the great crowd.

They are shown AFTER the Great Tribulation. If this GT refers to final consummation (which JW agree), it then means that John is still seeing this same 144000, but this time AFTER the Great Tribulation while verses 4-8 see the same group before the Great Tribulation.

Your comment however, clearly shows the unlikelihood of the JWs understanding. Because as the great crowd is not sealed, according to JWs, then they will be harmed. That's why that understanding has an issue.

Revelation 7:9-10 says not only 144,000 would be saved.

The sealing of 144,000 is guarantee of their heavenly calling to rule with Christ as "kings and priests", Revelation 1:5-6., Revelation 5:10

If you did understand my position, you will know that I was not saying that only a literal 144000 will be saved.

Sand2022:

If you did understand my position, you will know that I was not saying that only a literal 144000 will be saved.

Not after you said this.

"My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians "

Dtruthspeaker:


Some tribes? Is 1200 times 12 not 144000?

Not all the tribes of Israel are mentioned there.

Dtruthspeaker:


Not after you said this.

"My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians "

May I ask what is wrong with that?

Sand2022:
Fair question. Let's consider the timing for the great crowd. They are shown AFTER the Great Tribulation. If this GT refers to final consummation (which JW agree), it then means that John is still seeing this same 144000, but this time AFTER the Great Tribulation while verses 4-8 see the same group before the Great Tribulation.
Your comment however, clearly shows the unlikelihood of the JWs understanding. Because as the great crowd is not sealed, according to JWs, then they will be harmed. That's why that understanding has an issue. If you did understand my position, you will know that I was not saying that only a literal 144000 will be saved.

In Revelation 5, you are told the function for which the Lamb of God is meant to serve in the story of the 144,000 and the multitude.

6 Then I saw a Lamb standing in the center near the throne with the four living beings around it. The elders were also around the Lamb. The Lamb looked as if it had been killed. It had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God that were sent into all the world.
7 The Lamb came and took the scroll from the right hand of the one sitting on the throne.
8 After the Lamb took the scroll, the four living beings and the 24 elders bowed down before the Lamb. Each one of them had a harp. Also, they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s holy people.
9 And they all sang a new song to the Lamb “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals because you were killed, and with your blood sacrifice you bought people for God from every tribe, language, race of people, and nation.
10 You made them to be a kingdom and to be priests for our God. And they will rule on the earth.” - Revelations 5 vs 6 - 10

What this tells you is that those who were bought by the Lamb — from every tribe, language, and race of people, and nation — are to be made by God into His Kingdom of Priests. Well, that promise was made by God to the children of Israel alone - Exodus 19 vs 6. And so it follows that the 144,000, along with the multitude described, are all descendants of Israel.

Sand2022:
Not all the tribes of Israel are mentioned there.

Is that some sort of law/rule that says all the tribes of Israel must be included among the 144,000 that were sent out by Jesus Christ?

Sand2022:


May I ask what is wrong with that?

You say
"My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians"

Yet you say

"If you did understand my position, you will know that I was not saying that only a literal 144000 will be saved."

And you don't see nothing wrong with this 2?

Sand2022:


Not all the tribes of Israel are mentioned there.

Is 12 times 1200 not 144000? Has the Bible not already mentioned them all in saying 144000?

Sand2022:


Fair question. Let's consider the timing for the great crowd.

They are shown AFTER the Great Tribulation. If this GT refers to final consummation (which JW agree), it then means that John is still seeing this same 144000, but this time AFTER the Great Tribulation while verses 4-8 see the same group before the Great Tribulation.

The 144,000 and also the great crowd would survive the great Tribulation, that's sacrosanct.

Sand2022:


Your comment however, clearly shows the unlikelihood of the JWs understanding. Because as the great crowd is not sealed, according to JWs, then they will be harmed. That's why that understanding has an issue.

JWs reference Revelation 7:9-10 PROVEN the truth that both the great crowd and 144000 will survive the great Tribulation.

Nothing harms them for owing their salvation to the God and to the Lamb.

Sand2022:


If you did understand my position, you will know that I was not saying that only a literal 144000 will be saved.

If that's your position, you are entitled to it.

144000 are going to heaven,to fulfill Revelation 5:10 & Revelation 1:5-6.
Whereas, the great crowd would fulfill Revelation 7:9-17,& Revelation 21:3-5, Matthew 5:5 & Psalm 37:29, on earth.
Unless you mean or believe that hunger, sickness and death thrives in heaven.

Dtruthspeaker:


You say
"My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians"

Yet you say

"If you did understand my position, you will know that I was not saying that only a literal 144000 will be saved."

And you don't see nothing wrong with this 2?

No. I don't see any contradiction, because all true christians will be greater than 144000 in number.

Sand2022:
No. I don't see any contradiction, because all true christians will be greater than 144000 in number.

And as John clearly told you in that same Book of His, the Christians — the multitudes — will all be of the same blood of Israel that the 144,000 were of.

Kobojunkiee:
Um.... That makes no sense of any kind. God is spirit and you think the seal He would place on men is a superficial one — one of the human body?

God? You mean Jesus Christ?
But spirits don't eat or drink.
And Jesus did those

qwertyboss:
God? You mean Jesus Christ? But spirits don't eat or drink.
And Jesus did those

Who told you spirits don't eat or drink? Where did you get that idea of yours from because it does not even agree with what is written in scripture?

Sand2022:


No. I don't see any contradiction, because all true christians will be greater than 144000 in number.

If they are greater than 144000 then how did you come to say "My submission is that the 144000 evidently refers to all true christians"

Clearly this statement does not mean more than 144000!

Kobojunkiee:
Who told you spirits don't eat or drink? Where did you get that idea of yours from because it does not even agree with what is written in scripture?

Hope you are reading the scriptures well!
And do quote any place where it is said that a spirit eat or drink...
Except you mean Jennis or Jins.

qwertyboss:
■Hope you are reading the scriptures well! And do quote any place where it is said that a spirit eat or drink...
■Except you mean Jennis or Jins.

1. First, quote for me where it is written that spirits do not eat or drink. Let's start there first.
2. What in the world are those? Fairies and goblins?

Kobojunkiee:
Who told you spirits don't eat or drink? Where did you get that idea of yours from because it does not even agree with what is written in scripture?

Genesis 18: One day on the plains of Mamre, Abraham and Sarah were visited by three strangers. Abraham offered them food and drink, as was customary in the Jewish faith. They revealed themselves as angels and said that they brought a message from God that Sarah would become pregnant. She did, and in time gave birth to Isaac.

The angels being spirits if God didn't ate the food Abraham provided.

I challenged you to point a verse where it is said that spirits ate food...
If you found one it's definitely a Roman mythology but not religious scripture

qwertyboss:
■Genesis 18: One day on the plains of Mamre, Abraham and Sarah were visited by three strangers. Abraham offered them food and drink, as was customary in the Jewish faith. They revealed themselves as angels and said that they brought a message from God that Sarah would become pregnant. She did, and in time gave birth to Isaac. The angels being spirits if God didn't ate the food Abraham provided.
■I challenged you to point a verse where it is said that spirits ate food... If you found one it's definitely a Roman mythology but not religious scripture

1. You claim the strangers were angels so where in the passage of Genesis 18 is it stated that these angels of yours refused to eat, and they did so because spirits don't eat or drink?

2. Your challenge is nonsensical. You are the one who claims spirits do not eat or drink so you should be the one here proving your statement by way of a reference to a passage that in fact provides backing to what you claim. .