UGBE634:
Nazee this seem to be the closest way to the truth, maybe we have to really be serious with this search and get our brothers in those countries of portugal, dutch and others to interprete those early Bini works for us.

The dutch historian A.F.C Ryder points out in his work that… "next to nothing is known about the Yoruba people themselves at this early
date, and the assertion that Benin sent for an alien (yoruba) ruler instead of accepting one of their numbers was inherently implausible”

If nothing is know about Ife in the early year it is because it wasn't an empire, a strong kingdom or was not an organized society. how can they then launch an attack on an already established society or be asked to produce a ruler for a society that was more civilized and established than them?

davidnazee:


The dutch historian A.F.C Ryder points out in his work that… "next to nothing is known about the Yoruba people themselves at this early
date, and the assertion that Benin sent for an alien (yoruba) ruler instead of accepting one of their numbers was inherently implausible”

I believe we should be patient with UGBE634, he needs help. Hopefully he will see the truth.

UGBE634:
Nazee this seem to be the closest way to the truth, maybe we have to really be serious with this search and get our brothers in those countries of portugal, dutch and others to interprete those early Bini works for us.

The Europeans have already done the interpretations of early Benin history for us and below is the summary.

davidnazee:


The dutch historian A.F.C Ryder points out in his work that… "next to nothing is known about the Yoruba people themselves at this early
date, and the assertion that Benin sent for an alien (yoruba) ruler instead of accepting one of their numbers was inherently implausible”

If nothing is know about Ife in the early year it is because it wasn't an empire, a strong kingdom or was not an organized society. how can they then launch an attack on an already established society or be asked to produce a ruler for a society that was more civilized and established than them?

how do we now explain the Oba title and the strange gods? Can we settle for the fact that the Oba must have been an "Ekue"

UGBE634:
how do we now explain the Oba title and the strange gods? Can we settle for the fact that the Oba must have been an "Ekue"

Benin goes back into antiquity. I am sure you read the burial of an Oba of Benin that was written about in the 1500s. The writer said the tradition went back to ancient times, meaning Benin already had an ancient civilisation as far back as the 1500s. Did you read the summary of Ryder I just posted, read it. If Benin had any connection with the people that later became yoruba (oyo) it would have been in the Nupe-Igala Niger Benue confluence like Ryder postulated.

Also stop assuming that Oba is yoruba in origin. Every yoruba rulers had their individual titles such as Ewi, Eleko, Ooni, Alaafin, Olu, Baale etc, until very recently.

UGBE634 read through the list and see when the Oba title was adopted in Ibadan. Oba Isaac Babalola Akinyele 1955-1964

Ba’ale Maye Okunade (1820-1830)
Ba’ale Oluyedun
Ba’ale Lakanle
Bashorun Oluyole 1850
Ba’ale Oderinlo 1850
Ba’ale Oyeshile Olugbode 1851-1864
Ba’ale Ibikunle 1864
Bashorun Ogunmola 1865-1867
Ba’ale Akere I 1867-1870
Ba’ale Orowusi 1870-1871
Are Ona Kakanfo Obadoke Latosa 1871-1885
Ba’ale Ajayi Osungbekun 1885-1893
Ba’ale Fijabi I 1893-1895
Ba’ale Oshuntoki 1895-1897
Ba’ale Fajinmi 1897-1902
Ba’ale Mosaderin 1902-1904
Ba’ale Dada Opadare 1904-1907
Ba’ale Sunmonu Apampa 1907-1910
Ba’ale Akintayo Awanibaku Elenpe 1910-1912
Ba’ale Irefin 1912-1914
Ba’ale Shittu Latosa (son of Are Latosa) 1914-1925
Ba’ale Oyewole Foko 1925-1929
Olubadan Okunola Abass 1930-1946
Olubadan Akere I 1946
Olubadan Oyetunde I 1946
Olubadan Akintunde Bioku 1947-1948
Olubadan Fijabi II 1948-1952
Olubadan Alli Iwo 1952
Olubadan Apete 1952-1955
Oba Isaac Babalola Akinyele 1955-1964
Oba Yesufu Kobiowu July 1964 – December 1964
Oba Salawu Akanni Aminu 1965-1971
Oba Shittu Akintola Oyetunde II 1971-1976
Oba Gbadamosi Akanbi Adebimpe 1976-1977
Oba Daniel ‘Tayo Akinbiyi 1977-1982
Oba Yesufu Oloyede Asanike I 1982-1994
Oba Emmanuel Adegboyega Operinde I (1994-1999)
Oba Yunusa Ogundipe Arapasowu I (1999-2007)
Oba Samuel Odulana Odugade I (2007-2016)

..

UGBE634:
how do we now explain the Oba title and the strange gods? Can we settle for the fact that the Oba must have been an "Ekue"

What strange gods are you referring to?
Olokun worship originated in Ughotun, Edo isango worship is different from yoruba sango.
Edo fought and conquered and ruled many parts of Yoruba lands for over 700 years, why didn't you think that was how these gods and Oba title was introduced to them? have you read anywhere that yoruba conquered Edo?

UGBE634:
I am up for truth and not partisan argument,why is the epicenter of the Edo Civilization using Oba instead of Ogie

If there is anything we can seem to take home is the fact that the Oba seem to be more western than anything else

The Oba title more than not seem intuitively not an Indigenous title, it is not what I can stomach, it is not what I have been able to digest.

To me there seem to have been a launch in attack and maybe the aborigines in Benin city were conquered and the Oba stool and title situated. That invitation does not really make sense to me, there is a missing link in history that is yet not properly explained

It would seem that the people migrated to the Usen area and an attack was launched at the centre to defeat those in charge and certainly take over power. That seem to account for the warlike nature of the ruling dynasty

You are a lost Soul and I have no desire nor interest to lecture you on the origin of "Oba" title .... I still repeat my earlier stance YOU ARE NOT EDO!!

samuk:


The very fact that a story doesn't make sense to you doesn't give you right to invent your own story to fill in the suppose missing gap.

Below is the summary of an extensive work done on Benin history by Ryder. What Ryder is saying is that the current Benin/Ife connection doesn't agree with what the Europeans recorded about Benin history from the 1400s or 15th century.

That guy is a disgrace to himself and wherever he hails from like I can't even fathom how the guy brain dey tick ....

AutomaticMotors:


That guy is a disgrace to himself and wherever he hails from like I can't even fathom how the guy brain dey tick ....

It's even more pathetic considering the fact that a lot of work have been done by Benin people on this forum over the years. He is very adamant and ready to invent stories and assumptions to support his position. I don't understand why anyone would want to undermine over 600 years of his people's history.

davidnazee:


What strange gods are you referring to?
Olokun worship originated in Ughotun, Edo isango worship is different from yoruba sango.
Edo fought and conquered and ruled many parts of Yoruba lands for over 700 years, why didn't you think that was how these gods and Oba title was introduced to them? have you read anywhere that yoruba conquered Edo?

Olokun did not Originate in Ughoton, Ughoton is a yesterday community, we from eastern Bini extraction believe that Olokun worship originate from Urhonigbe. EKABA festival as we practice it today in Iyekorhiowmon was adopted from Urhonigbe


If you observed I never mentioned Olokun and the others I was very specific

Sango, Orunmila and the Ososomaye juju was definitely adopted from yoruba, it is not what we can contest

samuk:


Benin goes back into antiquity. I am sure you read the burial of an Oba of Benin that was written about in the 1500s. The writer said the tradition went back to ancient times, meaning Benin already had an ancient civilisation as far back as the 1500s. Did you read the summary of Ryder I just posted, read it. If Benin had any connection with the people that later became yoruba (oyo) it would have been in the Nupe-Igala Niger Benue confluence like Ryder postulated.

Also stop assuming that Oba is yoruba in origin. Every yoruba rulers had their individual titles such as Ewi, Eleko, Ooni, Alaafin, Olu, Baale etc, until very recently.

Or are the Okun yoruba people of the Niger Benue confluence area the answer?


stop repeating this stance, just because the
Ogie of Urhonigbe uses Okaevbo does not mean his Original tribal title for king is not Ogie. it's not what should come out of your mouth as a rebuttal.

Or because the Ogie of Udo has the Iyase as his title does not mean that the title Ogie is not his tribal title for king

samuk:


It's even more pathetic considering the fact that a lot of work have been done by Benin people on this forum over years. He is very adamant and ready to invent stories and assumptions to support his position. I don't understand why anyone would want to undermine over 600 years of his people's history.

He is either very Dull or he is on a malicious mission, I choose to go with the later cus I can't believe someone can be so ignorant naturally....

samuk:


It's even more pathetic considering the fact that a lot of work have been done by Benin people on this forum over years. He is very adamant and ready to invent stories and assumptions to support his position. I don't understand why anyone would want to undermine over 600 years of his people's history.

I want to be able to sleep at night knowing I have been able to resolve this puzzle in history or at least have a clue as to how it came about

You cannot tell me that Oba is Edo when from the length and breadth of the Edo and Edoid speaking area, the only three kings that seem to bear Oba as title seem to come have something to do with yoruba or come outrightly from it.

Oba of Benin
Oba of Agbede
Oba-Oluogbe of Usen

There is everything foreign about the Oba, more so with an "Oba" title

UGBE634:
Or are the Okun yoruba people of the Niger Benue confluence area the answer?


stop repeating this stance, just because the
Ogie of Urhonigbe uses Okaevbo does not mean his Original tribal title for king is not Ogie. it's not what should come out of your mouth as a rebuttal.

Or because the Ogie of Udo has the Iyase as his title does not mean that the title Ogie is not his tribal title for king

There is nothing like Ogie of Urhonigbe or Ogie of Udo, and these places their original tribal name/title for king is Oba but their rulers are not kings. Okaevbo is not a king, Iyase is not a king, enogies are not kings. There is only one King (Oba) for all of Bini people and he sitting at the capital. All other district rulers like Okaevbo, Iyase, enogies are all under the King (Oba).

davidnazee:


There is nothing like Ogie of Urhonigbe or Ogie of Udo, and these places their original tribal name/title for king is Oba but their rulers are not kings. Okaevbo is not a king, Iyase is not a king, enogies are not kings. There is only one King (Oba) for all of Bini people and he sitting at the capital. All other district rulers like Okaevbo, Iyase, enogies are all under the King (Oba).

That is what should give you a cause for concern that we were republican people like our Other Edo neighbors until this seemingly stranger came around and united us more so with an Oba title(engaging in wars of conquest with other Edo communities around to subdue them. The Ogiso of Igodomigodo was not an encompassing ruler, Even the present Ogiegor to it was independent

The Okaevbo of Urhonigbe is the Ogie of Urhonigbe. An Okaevbo means someone in charge of a people, he is also the Enogie, he is the king of the place

The same with the Iyase of Udo, he is the Ogie of the Place, they are kings of their territories easily put.

UGBE634:
That is what should give you a cause for concern that we were republican people like our Other Edo neighbors until this seemingly stranger came around and united us more so with an Oba title(engaging in wars of conquest with other Edo communities around to subdue them. The Ogiso of Igodomigodo was not an encompassing ruler, Even the present Ogiegor to it was independent

The Okaevbo of Urhonigbe is the Ogie of Urhonigbe. An Okaevbo means someone in charge of a people, he is also the Enogie, he is the king of the place

The same with the Iyase of Udo, he is the Ogie of the Place, they are kings of their territories easily put.

You are really misinformed on Igodomigodo ways of governance. If you go far before the era of Obas. where will you find more than one person bearing Ogiso title same time? All territories making up Igodomigodo was under one encompassing ruler, an Ogiso.. Other smaller rulers in charge of different territories weren't called Ogiso. Egor and Ogiegor were under Igodomigodo. The Edos have been long civilized and structure their way of life long before the yorubas came into existence.
A Governor is in charge of a state and a President in charge of the whole country. You cannot call a governor a president. Same thing applies to Iyase, Okaevbo, Enogies.. They are not kings but dukes in charge of their territories. The Oba of Benin is the only King for all Bini people and He can remove them from that position if they run afoul against the Palace.

davidnazee:


You are really misinformed on Igodomigodo ways of governance. If you go far before the era of Obas. where will you find more than one person bearing Ogiso title same time? All territories making up Igodomigodo was under one encompassing ruler, an Ogiso.. Other smaller rulers in charge of different territories weren't called Ogiso. Egor and Ogiegor were under Igodomigodo. The Edos have been long civilized and structure their way of life long before the yorubas came into existence.
A Governor is in charge of a state and a President in charge of the whole country. You cannot call a governor a president. Same thing applies to Iyase, Okaevbo, Enogies.. They are not kings but dukes in charge of their territories. The Oba of Benin is the only King for all Bini people and He can remove them from that position if they run afoul against the Palace.

Bro Ogies are not dukes, they are kings of Their territories. His influence on the other communities were soft, it can be be likened to the sort of influence the Okaigiesan of Esanland has over other Esan communities. The other Enogies were independent

The Oba seems a foreign stool

The thing is that many of these Enogie stool were not appointed by the Oba and some of them had existed in Benin before the Emergence of Obas in Benin
E.g the Okaevbo of Urhonigbe
The Enogie of Egor
Ogie-amien of Utantan
etc

UGBE634:
Bro Ogies are not dukes, they are kings of Their territories. His influence on the other communities were soft, it can be be likened to the sort of influence the Okaigiesan of Esanland has over other Esan communities. The other Enogies were independent

The Oba seems a foreign stool

The thing is that many of these Enogie stool were not appointed by the Oba and some of them had existed in Benin before the Emergence of Obas in Benin
E.g the Okaevbo of Urhonigbe
The Enogie of Egor
Ogie-amien of Utantan
etc

Bro the Enogie are dukes. their origin wether during the era of Ogisos or Obas was by appointment to oversee certain districts. No Enogie has ever been independent of Ogiso or Oba, they are always under the absolute ruler, the Ogisos of Igodomigodo and then the Obas of Benin.

Also you can keep deceiving yourself that the Oba is a foreign stool..

davidnazee:


Bro the Enogie are dukes. their origin wether during the era of Ogisos or Obas was by appointment to oversee certain districts. No Enogie has ever been independent of Ogiso or Oba, they are always under the absolute ruler, the Ogisos of Igodomigodo and then the Obas of Benin.

Also you can keep deceiving yourself that the Oba is a foreign stool..

Ogisos were never absolute rulers, they were never emperors, they did not conquer any territory, do you have any proof to show that the Ogi-egor was appointed, the Okaevbo of Urhonigbe position is usually the eldest man in the community who evolved to become an Okaevbo or an Enogie, that is still the system in place, the Enogies of these communities were natives of their communities if you have any proof quote for me otherwise stop the misinformation,

The Influence the Ogisos had on other communities was at best spiritual, not this one the Oba will appoint his brothers to head other communities they are not from

The Oba is anything but local

davidnazee:


Who told you Ekhalderan died in Ughoton? why don't you think he journeyed from Ughoton due to threat of attacks and assassination from the palace he had problems with? He left Ughoton and journeyed to Ife where he became great. That may be the missing link you are searching for.

Ife and Ughoton are in two completely opposite directions. Ughoton is due southwards directly facing the creeks.

Ife is due westwards into the thick West African jungle.

For example, after crown prince Iginuwa sone of Oba Oluwa who was supposed to rule was upstaged and an uncle (Uncle Ojoluwa) ruled in his stead, he went towards the creeks and settled amongst a Yoruboid people (The Itsekiri) whom he met there. He didn't for example, suddenly leave there and turn westwards. If Ekaladerhan would end up anywhere else outside Ughoton, common sense only demands that it would have been down in the creeks a boat stop away from Ughoton or refuge amongst the Urhobos immediately south who also have various traditions of fleeing Benin which they call 'Aka' at different times in history, not in faaar away Ife hundreds of Kilometers to the Northwest . How does a person end up in Ife from Ughoton in that age? Does the story even make sense to you? HIAN!

AutomaticMotors:


You are a lost Soul and I have no desire nor interest to lecture you on the origin of "Oba" title .... I still repeat my earlier stance YOU ARE NOT EDO!!

Listen to your Urhobo cousins!

https://www.nairaland.com/7532857/ovie-otuo-comrade-oshiomhole-know#120209900

Efewestern:

Ovie is an Edoid word. Most Edoid related group use Ogie. Urhobo/Isoko being the largest popularized the word that doesn't mean other group doesn't make use of it.

Oba is no way Edoid, has no root whatsoever. Ogie/Ovie means leader/head/king.

davidnazee:


There is nothing like Ogie of Urhonigbe or Ogie of Udo, and these places their original tribal name/title for king is Oba but their rulers are not kings. Okaevbo is not a king, Iyase is not a king, enogies are not kings. There is only one King (Oba) for all of Bini people and he sitting at the capital. All other district rulers like Okaevbo, Iyase, enogies are all under the King (Oba).

Why you dey waste your time lecturing him?

scholes0:


Listen to your Urhobo cousins!

https://www.nairaland.com/7532857/ovie-otuo-comrade-oshiomhole-know#120209900

that is what has been the norm, we were a republican people

AutomaticMotors:


Why you dey waste your time lecturing him?

Na me go lecture am, the Oba is FOREIGN I have thrown a challenge to him, I am still waiting for him

davidnazee:


You are really misinformed on Igodomigodo ways of governance. If you go far before the era of Obas. where will you find more than one person bearing Ogiso title same time? All territories making up Igodomigodo was under one encompassing ruler, an Ogiso.. Other smaller rulers in charge of different territories weren't called Ogiso. Egor and Ogiegor were under Igodomigodo. The Edos have been long civilized and structure their way of life long before the yorubas came into existence.
A Governor is in charge of a state and a President in charge of the whole country. You cannot call a governor a president. Same thing applies to Iyase, Okaevbo, Enogies.. They are not kings but dukes in charge of their territories. The Oba of Benin is the only King for all Bini people and He can remove them from that position if they run afoul against the Palace.

OLU AWURE the OBA of USEN is traditionally INDEPENDENT. Silly state politics aside.
You can even see he boldly uses the title Oba without fear or favor.

Even Udo is traditionally another sovereign municippality unless they deliberately chose to be subsumed under Benin.

scholes0:


OLU AWURE the OBA of USEN is traditionally INDEPENDENT. Silly state politics aside.

These seven kings are not in the class of those that were appointed by the past Oba's

The Oba Himself
Okaivbo of Urhonigbe
Enogie of Ugo
Enogie of Egor
Ogie-amien of Utantan
Iyase of Udo
Olu-awure of Usen

The reasons are this
1. The ages of these towns
2. The ages of these stools, none there is less than 500 years old
3. Their averagely larger size over other villages in Benin
4. Their historical importance to Edo as a race or Bini as a nation
Each of these communities and their stools meet at least 1, 2 or maybe all of the requirements

The rest are majorly "dagbo" the Oba will just cut seven small villages add them together and send his brother. It happened alot during the reign of Oba Akenzua, Eredieuwa and even this present Oba has sent some
The rest are

UGBE634:
These seven kings are not in the class of those that were appointed by the past Oba's

The Oba Himself
Okaivbo of Urhonigbe
Enogie of Ugo
Enogie of Egor
Ogie-amien of Utantan
Iyase of Udo
Olu-awure of Usen

The reasons are this
1. The ages of these towns
2. The ages of these stools, none there is less than 500 years old
3. Their averagely larger size over other villages in Benin
4. Their historical importance to Edo as a race or Bini as a nation
Each of these communities and their stools meet at least 1, 2 or maybe all of the requirements

The rest are majorly "dagbo" the Oba will just cut seven small villages add them together and send his brother. It happened alot during the reign of Oba Akenzua, Eredieuwa and even this present Oba has sent some
The rest are

The Irado of Utese used to also be in this same class until they gave up that privilege especially with the current Olutese (now enogie), Agidigbi who came in 2012.

scholes0:


The Irado of Utese used to also be in this same class until they gave up that privilege especially with the current Olutese (now enogie), Agidigbi who came in 2012.

Are you sure he is not related to the Oba, his name might be Akenzua or Eweka

UGBE634:
Are you sure he is not related to the Oba, his name might be Akenzua or Eweka

He is related through Irado and Oranmiyan, a very distant cousin.
Strictly speaking, he is an uncle to the Oba.

scholes0:


He is related through Irado and Oranmiyan, a very distant cousin.
Strictly speaking, he is an uncle to the Oba.

you mean the Irado

Please how did he lost the position, was he deposed, I don't know much about Utesse,