samuk:


Just to add, the Benin view the Oba as both the embodiment of divine spiritual being and a physical king. The Oba was seen as God in the physical, the spiritual leader, God on earth only second to Oghene-Osa. There is a saying in Edo that you cannot have two Oba at a time in Benin, hence ogie doesn't quite mean the same thing as Oba to ancient Benin people.

Your example of Ogia-Amen is spot on. People that are not very conversant with Benin may confuse Ogie for Oba.

You people like writing like Edo history or Edo people started out with Oba, who were the Ogies under up till Oba emerged in Benin

Orhogbua:
Hello Nairalanders my name Tshepo Ajayi i am from Behchuana,My father is NIgerian specifically Bini and Yoruba and My mother from botswana I have always been interested in history in fact I major it in uni and coming from a bini-yoruba background i have a lot of historical heritage from of course these two ethnic groups and my two favourite civilisations are benin and ife and there relationship is something i wish to explore with the knowledge of the nairalanders and of course nigerians in this forum to explore it FULLY

of course these things can get quite tribalistic as i have observed
SO HERE ARE THE RULES

1. NO opinions to be thrown about without proof etc Sources,citations from experts on the subject (but this must also be be sourced) or traditions

2. NO BIGOTRY no bigotry shall be thrown around in this thread no matter how flustered or angry you are KEEP YOUR COMPOSURE yes i am talking about people like TAO11 or gregyboy or davidnazee who attack tribes for a little debate on nairaland

3. If you wish to debunk a statement please use sources and actual proof no emotions or such or stupid opinions

4. Statements are allowed to be made at first but can only be debunked with proof


Now of course i have my opinions with the relationship feel free to debunk with sources NOW these opinions are

1.Ife did not necessarily have a subservient relationship with benin but benin saw ife as a sort of religious site as ife has a strong religious affinity with benin thought benin has many differences in religion with ife

2 I wouldn't go as far to say that Benin was a vassal to ife but ife did have superiority and benin probabaly had ife dominated markets i do believe this ended after the oba ewuare came into power

3 The infamous "Oghene" from portuguese adventures to the itsekiri coast then occupied by benin, my professor (a man versed in african history) doesnt like the way that people use to give validity to kingdoms nearby benin superiority,the information given is iffy at best and details vague, did the portuguese see this process of handing of a brass head and symbols of authority?, or is it a misunderstanding and how did they gather this informatiion,also they never were never at the kings court in benin just near the gates by their description of the place,also where is this transfer in the traditions of benin or ife?

4 No low quality content in the form of none backed sources and of course stupid opinions like benin ruled to "ivory coast!!" and stuff like that

It's really been an interesting read so far. This topic always lives up to it's expectations 😂😂. To think it's been more back and forth from the Edo men themselves with little or no interference from the Omo Odua makes it more fascinating.. I am still waiting for French baldie to come in 😂😧😂, then lastly how it might likely round up with the Anioma people.
I know RedBonesmith is ever ready for y'all on that one though.. Once again, it's been worth the time, keep it up!

UGBE634

What is the meaning of the Benin name Osamede?

Samuk what is the meaning of Ovbi Adimila which is a prominent praise epithet of the Omonoba?

scholes0:
UGBE634

What is the meaning of the Benin name Osamede?

Literally it means my God does not fall. What it can translate to mean to make sense is my God does not fail

UGBE634:
Literally it means my God does not fall. What it can translate to mean to make sense is my God does not fail

According to an Edo website, it means
God creates the Crown (Ede)
https://edoaffairs.com/benin-names-meaning/

If Osamede means what you say it means, what does Omosede mean?

scholes0:


According to an Edo website, it means
God creates the Crown (Ede)
https://edoaffairs.com/benin-names-meaning/

If Osamede means what you say it means, what does Omosede mean?

You can interprete it (Osamede) any of those ways it would make absolute sense, it means the same thing with Osemwende

UGBE634:
in some quarters, it was strictly Ogiso Igodo, the Oba seem to have been the palace addition to it

Omo, it is VERY VERY hard to see a Benin man who just say things as they are.
You see all these ones arguing here? They are all fonts and have an irrational fear of admitting the Yoruba links of the current dynasty. Maybe they think Edo people will be Yorubanized if they do or somethting.

I know the Edos and some other groups might have felt marginalized in the old western region, and yes I admit what sociologists term "The tyranny of the Majority that happened between the Yoruba and the smaller groups that later broke out" due to certain perceived injustices, (and these acts happened in the Northern, Eastern and Western regions) but that is not an excuse to distort hundreds upon hundreds of years of sacred history.

I mean, the act just reeks.

scholes0:
Samuk what is the meaning of Ovbi Adimila which is a prominent praise epithet of the Omonoba?

That was added lately, also the annual celebration of Oduduwa by the palace is also new. Benin have two historical timeline, pre-1897 authentic history and post-1897 polical history that puts the oba of Benin at the heart and centre of yoruba monarchs.

Don't forget that the most important people in yoruba land are Oduduwa, Oranmiyan, Oba of Benin as first heir, the Alaafin of Oyo as second heir and the Ooni as the spiritual leader or chief priest.

What we have been focusing on here is the authentic history not the political arrangements.

Efewestern:


Maybe we are saying two different thing.

I'm discussing the use of Ogie, you are talk about Enogie. Enogie has very limited usage compared to Ogie.

Enogies is not equal to Ogies.

You're not edo and you can things missed up

First thing first surrender to the fact benin owns the word ogie and the other coinage are merely tribal corruption


First you have to note the Oba install enogie, he didn't install kings in delta as Ovie, probably its a corruption of the word enogie that happened over time

Again not all title the Oba gives is related to the word ogie and not all dukes are named enogie even in benin, the title of oba of Lagos giving by the Oba of benin is called eleko of Eko, the title giving by the Oba of benin to the owo king in ondo state is called osemawe of owo,
Naming depended on the particular oba of benin on the throne during the naming. In a general statement all the royalty that is not the Oba himself would be called enogie by the palace, the name oba is only unique to the head just like president

The title oba is a short form it is called omo no oba, the white people shortened it, no elderly one in benin would call the Oba of benin oba without putting omo no' ba which means ( the child that shines for the edo people) that is the title are not just oba which is a short form

samuk:


That was added lately, also the annual celebration of Oduduwa by the palace is also new. Benin have two historical timeline, pre-1897 authentic history and post-1897 polical history that puts the oba of Benin at the heart and centre of yoruba monarchs.

Don't forget that the most important people in yoruba land are Oduduwa, Oranmiyan, Oba of Benin as first heir, the Alaafin of Oyo as second heir and the Ooni as the spiritual leader or chief priest.

What we have been focusing on here is the authentic history not the political arrangements.

When you say it is new, How 'new' do you consider to be too new to be discarded?
I want to know your time frame.

Ofunwa111:









It's really been an interesting read so far. This topic always lives up to it's expectations 😂😂. To think it's been more back and forth from the Edo men themselves with little or no interference from the Omo Odua makes it more fascinating.. I am still waiting for French baldie to come in 😂😧😂, then lastly how it might likely round up with the Anioma people;
I know RedBonesmith is ever ready for y'all on that one though.. Once again, it's been worth the time, keep it up!

RedboneSmith was already here, he got a bloody nose and ran away. He may just come back swigging after reading this my reply. Let me go and look for body armour for protection.

AreaFada2:


One quick correction. Aro and Ero are not same o. They are two different titles in Benin. That Edohen means Odofin is a mere conjecture. Edohen, Oliha, Ero and Eholo are the oldest titles. As old as Ogiso. They are actually village rulers, but now grown to meet Benin. I have read many SW writers' papers and theses with these errors.
Funny that a very good paper published in SW traced Ijesha/Ilesha titles and their origins. It made it clear of their Benin origins. Yet Ife is nearby? Why then?

⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐

Anywhere Dem see AreaFada2 Dem dey run!

UGBE634:
You can interprete it Osamede any of those ways it would make absolute sense, it means the same thing with Osemwende

Yeah, the Ede in Omosede and Osamede are from the "Ede" meaning crown in Edo not from the one of falling.

That [EDE] word is part of the vocab that flowed with dynastic change in early Benin, from its form in Yoruba [ADE] meaning crown.

scholes0:


When you say it is new, How 'new' do you consider to be too new to be discarded?
I want to know your time frame.

I believe the annual Oduduwa celebration actually started with the current oba few years ago. I can't remember his father Erediawa 2 celebrating it annually. I also believe the other praise name came in during Erediawa or slightly earlier. None of these existed during Oba Ovonramwen.

Thebadpolitican:



You're not edo and you can things missed up

First thing first surrender to the fact benin owns the word ogie and the other coinage are merely tribal corruption


First you have to note the Oba install enogie, he didn't install kings in delta as Ovie, probably its a corruption of the word enogie that happened over time

Again not all title the Oba gives is related to the word ogie and not all dukes are named enogie even in benin, the title of oba of Lagos giving by the Oba of benin is called eleko of Eko, the title giving by the Oba of benin to the owo king in ondo state is called osemawe of owo,
Naming depended on the particular oba of benin on the throne during the naming. In a general statement all the royalty that is not the Oba himself would be called enogie by the palace, the name oba is only unique to the head just like president

The title oba is a short form it is called omo no oba, the white people shortened it, no elderly one in benin would call the Oba of benin oba without putting omo no' ba [/b]which means ( the child that shines for the edo people) that is the title are not just oba which is a short form

[b]As a race, he is Edo and you are not more Edo than him, his perspective is very welcome

Binis do not own the Word Ogie, it is a cognate word that was gifted to all Edoid tribes by their ancestor, the proto-Edo. I mean these are related tribes, most words they share with us as Edoids groups are cognate

I have asked you there were Ogies in Benin before the advent of the Oba,
who were they subservient to?!!! You will dodge my question, you will quickly come and quote him to misinform him. Ogie is king and not duke




It does not mean that, stop lying, there is no significant stress on the "ba" to suggest so. It is pronounced the same way the yorubas pronounce theirs

samuk:


I believe the annual Oduduwa celebration actually started with the current oba few years ago. I can't remember his father Erediawa 2 celebrating it annually. I also believe the other praise name came in during Erediawa or slightly earlier. None of these existed during Oba Ovonramwen.

Sam, It is not new o.

Oduduwa festival has always been a part of a series of festivities in Benin known as the Ague-Oghene. which was meant to celebrate the Oba's paternal ancestors. The only difference was that back then it was all compartmentalized and condensed together.
It is pre 1897.

Oba Eresonyen de-compartmentalized it and started celebrating Ugie Oduduwa separetely.

Thebadpolitican:



You're not edo and you can things missed up

First thing first surrender to the fact benin owns the word ogie and the other coinage are merely tribal corruption


First you have to note the Oba install enogie, he didn't install kings in delta as Ovie, probably its a corruption of the word enogie that happened over time

Again not all title the Oba gives is related to the word ogie and not all dukes are named enogie even in benin, the title of oba of Lagos giving by the Oba of benin is called eleko of Eko, the title giving by the Oba of benin to the owo king in ondo state is called osemawe of owo,
Naming depended on the particular oba of benin on the throne during the naming. In a general statement all the royalty that is not the Oba himself would be called enogie by the palace, the name oba is only unique to the head just like president

The title oba is a short form it is called omo no oba, the white people shortened it, no elderly one in benin would call the Oba of benin oba without putting omo no' ba which means ( the child that shines for the edo people) that is the title are not just oba which is a short form

You are very correct with the meaning.

UGBE634:
stop attributing titles you are not sure of their origin to yorubaland. Asoron to Eson is so laughable, how sure are you it is not the other way round. Edohen and Odofin does not look alike, the family will actually laugh at you for such theories you postulate here,

That boy na complete i.diot! I swear I can't even hide my disgust ... I just can't!!!

AutomaticMotors:


That boy na complete i.diot! I swear I can't even hide my disgust ... I just can't!!!

As e dey pain you... e dey sweet me.

samuk:


RedboneSmith was already here, he got a bloody nose and ran away. He may just come back swigging after reading this my reply. Let me go and look for body armour for protection.

Bloody nose?

The way you people claim 'victory' is very funny. TAO will trash you people with concrete peer-reviewed scholarly submissions. You people will claim you gave her a bloody nose, even when the interaction in which she dragged all of you like small Tiger gen is there for everyone to see.

I came on to demonstrate that Ryder was misquoted by one of you. I did that. I put all the evidence out. And then stepped back, because I have no interest in the broader discussion going on here. You came and claimed I was given a bloody nose. By who? How? Gregyboy used to do this a lot with me too, which was really weird, because that boy has never made one coherent point all the time I have known him here.

One wonders if this is a peculiar Benin trait - to claim phantom victories.

Is that how your empire was also built - on the back of phantom victories? One would hope not.

Thebadpolitican:



The title oba is a short form it is called omo no oba, the white people shortened it, no elderly one in benin would call the Oba of benin oba without putting omo no' ba which means ( the child that shines for the edo people) that is the title are not just oba which is a short form

Shey you dey whine me ni?
What is all these pseudo-history flying around here?

AreaFada2:

Samuk, it would be improper for me to disclose private discussion with these personages in Eastern Yorubaland. How NL commentators believe the could possibly know more than the custodians is baffling to me. It goes beyond what is bolded above. I have nothing to gain by putting one side above the other. If anything, I even have much easier access on SW side.

Now regarding argument over Ogie, Enogie, etc between Efewestern and others, the example of Ogiame of Itsekhiri is enough to settle it.
Iginuwa was sent as "Ogie Amen". That Ogie meaning is not different in origin to what other Edoid tribes have.

Ogie means Lord. As in one ruling over an area. In Benin view and purpose, it was not meant to be King in stature.

Of course, since the Ogie or Ovie is the ruler now in charge and with increased independence, exercising the power of a king, he came to be seen as a king. Was there any point in changing Ovie title to reflect his king status? In my view not at all!
But Efe remember that those Ovies did not start out as a king. Ogisos did not start out as outright kings even. There were senior elders among elders of Benin quarters. Each Quarter produced an elder who will become next leader when the previous dies.

Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholor ancestors where among the elders when their head a brilliant idea to make himself king. The other 4 chiefs/elders, after intense negotiations, agreed but one one condition. That they should be permanent chiefs with near equal power to the king. They all agreed (swore at Erimwindu/shrine all Benin ancestors) that the king must ensure their sons inherit their titles and they must ensure the king's son or chosen heir inherits kingship. These elders laboured hard to wrestle control of Benin from Evian descendants and restore monarchy after Ogiso Owodo. They were fulfilling ancestral oath and also safeguarding their positions, since only a Ogiso direct blood descendant would be under oath to ensure the elders retain their position perpetually.

The Elders list later expanded to 7 to include Ezomo, Oloton and the Crown Prince. So the long match to kingship began somewhere for every ancient king.

Whatever title any tribe use to describe their king today is their choice. But we are looking at origins of names first. Nobody is disputing Ovie or Orodje meaning king to those people today.

⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Thanks for this insight Boss! 🙌🙌

scholes0:


Sam, It is not new o.

Oduduwa festival has always been a part of a series of festivities in Benin known as the Ague-Oghene. which was meant to celebrate the Oba's paternal ancestors. The only difference was that back then it was all compartmentalized and condensed together.
It is pre 1897.

Oba Eresonyen de-compartmentalized it and started celebrating Ugie Oduduwa separetely.

There was nothing like Oduduwa in Benin history pre-1897 and Oba Eresonyen predates 1897. Alot was changed in Benin history to accommodate the new Oduduwa polical history after 1897. Why was it ague Oghene in the past according to you and then changed to ugie Oduduwa after 1897?

Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan didn't appear in Benin history pre-1896. There is no where in Benin history those names existed before 1897.

RedboneSmith:


Bloody nose?

The way you people claim 'victory' is very funny. TAO will trash you people with concrete peer-reviewed scholarly submissions. You people will claim you gave her a bloody nose, even when the interaction in which she dragged all of you like small Tiger gen is there for everyone to see.

I came on to demonstrate that Ryder was misquoted by one of you. I did that. I put all the evidence out. And then stepped back, because I have no interest in the broader discussion going on here. You came and claimed I was given a bloody nose. By who? How? Gregyboy used to do this a lot with me too, which was really weird, because that boy has never made one coherent point all the time I have known him here.

One wonders if this is a peculiar Benin trait - to claim phantom victories.

Is that how your empire was also built - on the back of phantom victories? One would hope not.

Like, I just tire.

To be fair though, Ugbe634 has been more pragmatic that the rest of these ones just doing bandwagon activism.

UGBE634:
Royalty is already a group of Royalty, there is nothing like a group of Royalty, Royalty as a word is limitless

you people seem to have a shallow explanation to these things
The word Ogie has existed before the Oba dynasty, who were they now subservient to, who were they now under

The word Ogie means king
Enogie -the king

It is Egie that means royalty

Who were they under before the Emergence of Oba in Benin

For example you can say Oba-mu-egie me meaning Oba has bequeathed royal to me, a chieftaincy title or so

Using Ogie in that contest Oba mu-ogie me would not make sense

Another rubbish


Egie meaning group of royals or group of Duke

Enogie : dukes

If you say ogie means king


How would you describe a benin prince to someone in benin language pointing to the fact is of a royal blood

Ogie means king to a non benin, ogie is a general world the benin use to describe royalty be it the person is a prince, a royal servant, a royal slave

Ogie does not just mean king you dummy its a non benin that will call and refer to Ogie as just king you can a Duke(enogie) a king(ogie)


The title of the king of benin has always been omo no' ba ( the child's that shines for the edo people) oba is a short form of the word
To see others stole the words the only called it the short form the Europeans coined it into


Ugbe go and sleep am still waiting for the assignment I gave you earlier today


Is utese close to any yoruba territory if yes you tracing utese to oromiysn history is void

samuk:


RedboneSmith was already here, he got a bloody nose and ran away. He may just come back swigging after reading this my reply. Let me go and look for body armour for protection.

Nah. He didn't. He actually corrected your bro, by telling him not to misquote Ryder and that was it. He would come if y'all drop false information or history about Anioma, or probably misquote another writer/historian. He's a solid guy !

scholes0:


Shey you dey whine me ni?
What is all these pseudo-history flying around here?

He is right, UGBE634 already presented a screen shot of Benin dictionary said to have been written in 1930s, it's there, scroll backwards to see it.

samuk:



Today the Sultan of Sokoto has replaced the Ooni as the spiritual leader of more than half yoruba oba and more than half yoruba population.

.

This fact funny ooo but tragically true!! Them dey try thief Benin/Edo History while fulani don thief their soul already

AreaFada2

samuk:


There was nothing like Oduduwa in Benin history pre-1897 and Oba Eresonyen predates 1897. Alot was changed in Benin history to accommodate the new Oduduwa polical history after 1897. Why was it ague Oghene in the past according to you and then changed to ugie Oduduwa after 1897?

Ife, Oduduwa and Oranmiyan didn't appear in Benin history pre-1896. There is no where in Benin history those names existed before 1897.

Lmao... I am looking forward the next story that you will spin to explain away the Oduduwa mask used in the Oduduwa ritual that was part of the commemorative art carted away from Benin after the expedition.

scholes0:


Like, I just tire.

To be fair though, Ugbe634 has been more pragmatic that the rest of these ones just doing bandwagon activism.

Yea, I remember arguing with him once about the origin and etymology of 'Idu'. He disagreed very strongly with my position, which I understand. All things put together he is more pragmatic and objective than most other Benin people on here.

Another pragmatic Benin nairalander, who no longer uses this platform was bokohalal.

samuk:


RedboneSmith was already here, he got a bloody nose and ran away. He may just come back swigging after reading this my reply. Let me go and look for body armour for protection.